Its a depressing thing to realize the entirety of our vision is increasing taxes on rich people.

[dkf]

We are the innovators of the world yet we see nothing from our leaders calling us to develop or invest ourselves in anything big that will create new industries and new jobs of the future.

Instead our vision is in copying what they did years ago by repairing stuff that we let deteriorate while the other side's vision is to drown government.

Our leadership sucks.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Unfortunately, we can't do much of that good stuff

because there's no money. Hence the goal of taxing the people who have it.

[vets74]

62. Too simple. Too unaware of facts.

"Taxing rich people" is all we have to redress the scheme from 1981-2011 that has taken $17-trillion away from the Middle Class.

Yes, that is right: $17,000,000,000,000.

17,000-billion dollars.

The whole country is book-valued at $55-trillion.

1. Reagan tax giveaways

2. Big Bubble I (1994-2000)

3. Bush tax giveaways 2002, 2003

4. Big bubble II (2003-2008)

Between asset transfers and debt on the middle Class you get to taking $17-trillion.

Now the Republican shills are crying bloody murder about simple returns to norms that might recoup $200-billion a year. That is not enough to make up for policies that are still adding to the inequality. You have to get up around $700-billion to balance things out -- Federal subsidies to the wealthy make it so.

[villager]

2. Good point. We need to be talking about nationalizing the banking and oil industries, too

:thumbsup:

[Scuba]

6. +1

[Donnachaidh]

17. AND Big Pharma. n/t

[hifiguy]

61. I will happily second that notion!

:applause:

[bvar22]

66. And withdrawing from ALL the "Free Trade" Treaties,

...and renegotiating these treaties on a Bi-Lateral basis, like we used to.
Dennis Kucinich has a detailed plan.
It IS a matter of National Security.

Also, STOP the rampant "Privatization" of Our Commons.
In a Democracy, some things should NEVER receive Public Money.

*Armed Private Military "Consultants" (Mercenaries)

*For Profit Prisons

*Private (Charter) Schools

*Private Vote Counting and Tallying Corporations

*Private "Intelligence" gathering Corporations

*Private Health Insurance Corporations

*Faith Based ANYTHING


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity with The 99%!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ProSense]

3. It's

"Its a depressing thing to realize the entirety of our vision is increasing taxes on rich people."

...not the entire vision, but it's definitely a popular one:

[Wait Wut]

65. Very popular, and one I agree with.

But, I do see the point of the OP. If we could define our messaging about the reasons we need to raise taxes on the rich and what benefits could be produced, it may be easier to accomplish. The deficit talk depresses people and most really don't understand what it means. Change the message to positive ideas about the future and folks (might) listen more closely.

We can't change the message until we come up with some plans. Find ways to convince people that raising taxes on the rich will benefit their own lives. Real benefits and not just rainbows.

[tularetom]

4. Gotta walk before you can run

And we can barely crawl at this point.

Until we have the $ to spend on education we're going to fall further behind the rest of the developed world when it comes to innovation and job creation.

And the only way we'll be able to raise the dough is by taxing the rich. They're the only ones that have any money now.

[Autumn]

5. Our leadership sucks.

I agree with that 100%

[Scuba]

7. Depressing, true. Inaccurate also. n/t

[joeybee12]

8. The 1993 tax increase, what followed what the internet age...

so much for your theory.

[dkf]

15. The Internet age did come from a visionary government.

Thank goodness Al Gore and others got the funding to develop it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. Progressive taxes are a means.

The end is innovation. Businesses will invest in R&D if there are markets and tax benefits. Why would GE invest in R&D? Their current tax rate is zero and there aren't any good prospects for growth. To do anything other than pocket the profits is stupid.

Another end is jobs. Laid-off teachers won't spend, and construction workers aren't if there are no roads to build.

Another end is the deficit. Every dollar that isn't raised in taxes on the rich will be borrowed from them. Undoubtedly he'd rather loan us the money than have it taxed, but taxes are better for the other 99 of us.

[NNN0LHI]

10. Bullshit and you know it

I have been pushing to reindustrialize our economy for ten years here.

That would get more money out of the wealthy fuckers hands than all the tax increases in the world.

Don

[JVS]

11. There can be other visions too, but we really need to raise taxes on the rich in order to fix things

[dkf]

37. Well what are they? Are they aspirational in any way?

[JohnnyRingo]

12. Actually, I think it's been whittled down to that..

Certainly the ideals began grand enough, but the realization that we aren't going to get the fast service one expects at a drive-up window has reduced the left's priorities to easier obtained baby steps. I think tax equality is a good start.

Ultimately we need to rid government of the putrid stench of stale tea so we can move forward as a nation.

[Angry Dragon]

13. What is your grand plan??

[dkf]

26. Look to the future...

Transition to alternative energy, mostly solar, through 75% tax credits. Our economy is dependent on cheap sources of energy. This needs to be at the top of the priority list.

Re-create a manufacturing base but do it high tech so we can make it more cost effective than the Chinese. This will create jobs here at home.

Invest $500 billion looking for a cure for cancer, heart disease, alzheimers, diabetes. Give whoever contributed to or develops the final cure a share in the patents. Have everyone post their findings on an open source system so their contributions can be documented and seen by everyone.

Move all kids towards tablets for their Educational resources. When they do their work, every teacher can find out if they are getting the answers right or wrong from the get go targeting who needs help. Wire up every household for broadband and move the phone systems this way.

These are the kinds of things that I would be excited about and they have the potential to SAVE MONEY too.

But of course if a politician comes up with better ideas I would love it!

[immoderate]

27. High tech, cost effective manufacturing does not create jobs.

It uses robots.

Jobs are not the answer for the modern world. Distribution is.


--imm

[dkf]

30. How so?

[immoderate]

41. As productivity increases, the amount of work decreases.

Fewer people are needed to produce the same goods. Have you seen the commercials with driverless fork lifts?

Past human needs, manufacturing strains the environment. Green is good, but most manufactured items wind up in a landfill. This is not sustainable.

--imm

[Angry Dragon]

34. All good ideas

Now I see you want to spend money that is not there
Where are you going to get the money??
Government going to spend this money or business out of the goodness of their heart??

Tax credits costs money
As for education the bottom line of education is not getting the answers
it is teaching students how to think on their own
Education is already moving mostly to get the correct answers
and it is destroying public education

You want people to share their ideas and that is a noble cause
and I would think business today would swoop in and declare
they own it

[dkf]

36. Spend money to save money. That is different from spending money that is poof gone.

As to education, knowing the basics are the foundation for the rest.

As for building creativity, I'm not sure the schools ever did a good job at that. That would probably be called ADD in today's classroom.

[Angry Dragon]

42. I agree but you fail to realize that the republicans

will not spend the money

cantor calls for cuts to fund FEMA
you expect this man who is second in the republican house
to agree with your plan??

He is going to ask his fellow republicans to create jobs
so Obama looks good??
The republican agenda is to destroy this country as much as possible
so they can again gain control of government to destroy this country even more

I say the answer is to raise taxes on the wealthy through a progressive tax
up to 60-70%
Regulate the hell out of banking, wall street, big pharma, health care
by regulating this will put more money in the pockets of the people
Cut out wars
Take the money to fix infrastructure, that will create jobs
Invest in education as you suggest but with both eyes open to what will work
Get business out of education

[Sheepshank]

14. no not really.

I can't help that you chose to focus on one thing and ignore everything else. but to promote that supposition as if were fact is pretty disingenious.

[dkf]

33. Okay what is the vision then?

[saras]

16. It fits Maslow's heirarchy of needs, too. Survival first.

First, we get the money.

Second, we ensure that our ideas and plans can survive.

and so on...

[bluerum]

18. How, uninspiring.

[Bonhomme Richard]

19. The greatest spark for entrepreneurship would be single payer health care.

There is not a doubt in my mind.
There are a lot of people that would start their own businesses if they didn't have to worry about health care.

[dkf]

35. True. I am for single payer. Health care costs are an anvil weighing us down.

If single payer were posed as a means to free up people it would sell much better.

[Bonhomme Richard]

46. I would have never taken the risk to start my company if....

my wife's employer didn't provide our family with health care. I was lucky.

[kctim]

20. Depressing? Yes.

But it is always easier to take than it is to do.

It is drown government and leave me alone VS. expand government and give me more. No more working together, no compromise.

It is what's bringing this country to its knees.

[Bill McBlueState]

21. well, get a better vision

I'm not sure who you mean by "our," but it must include you.

[Major Nikon]

22. Strawman tripe

[Safetykitten]

23. Or, our economy is gauged on a little white phone, and it's redesign every six months.

[dkf]

29. I think it's pretty amazing myself.

It needs to be less expensive though and the ability to stream needs to be improved.

[Lost-in-FL]

44. Indeed!

However, in order for those services to be cheaper and more efficient, Congress must be open to spend in infrastructure (specifically a grid system that obviously communication monopolies and pseudomonopolies are unwilling to improve themselves). So, do not expect this new communication system to be cheaper.

The technology is there but it has not been embraced NOT out of a lack of talent or genius or because americans are "lazy" (what conservative leaning cults believe) but because of pure greed. Not only they rather place money before people, but are also placing profits before beneficial technological advancement. That is precisely what is dragging the USA to the bottom of technologic innovation, greed.

If companies are unwilling to develop new technologies that require more hiring and investment, and their only concern is only to increase their profits in order to trickle up the wealth, our government is obligated then to increase taxes on the rich. In order to create the conditions that would allow us to improve infrastructure and facilitate job creation, Congress need to increase taxes on those that are overcrowding our communication and energy systems, the rich.

[global1]

24. So - Do You Have Any Ideas For New Industries We Can Create?.....nt

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

25. "Our"??? I find it annoying that your constant RW talking points seem to go unnoticed. nt

[RandomKoolzip]

28. +1. I know.

"Our?" The OP does not speak for "me" or "us."

[jtown1123]

31. Seconded. It's always the same from this poster. n/t

[NoGOPZone]

51. .

:thumbsup:

[demmiblue]

53. They don't go unnoticed in the least. n/t

[Doremus]

68. Exactly. Thank you. nt

[inna]

76. Constant indeed, and very much noticed, rest assured.

If that's any help. :shrug:

[devilgrrl]

78. You aren't the only one.

:thumbsup:

[WhiteTara]

32. Go work on a progressive candidate's campaign.

Stop whining. Get your marching shoes on. We've got work to do.

[jwirr]

38. Excellent point. And at a time when we need new ideas to deal with

climate change, oil depletion, water shortages, food shortages and many other problems that need to be dealt with.

I think these things may have to come from the bottom.

[Lost-in-FL]

39. Spoken like a true corporatist. K&R

[closeupready]

40. The expression, "put your money where your mouth is" means money talks -

can't do anything without it. That's why raising taxes on the wealthy is going to be an essential element of progressive and liberal change.

[dtexdem]

43. It's not the entirety of the vision -- but it is a keystone.

Without it, we won't get far on most everything else.

[Marr]

45. This poster regularly argues for cutting Social Security and Medicare.

We've been hearing this bullshit for decades.

[RandiFan1290]

60. Don't forget

their breathless defense of the Bush/Obama tax cuts for the rich.

[dkf]

70. Nope...get rid of them all. I am already assuming it will be done.

[TBF]

47. That is not my vision at all. My vision rests on taking over this economic

system and installing a new one that puts people before profits. And you thought you were depressed before I posted ...

[LiberalEsto]

48. Bull!

We START with taxing them.

We need to push to:

overturn Citizens United
eliminate corporate "personhood"
keep them from sending jobs overseas
break down megacorporations into smaller companies
re-regulate banks, utilities, and other businesses that have run wild following the deregulation of the past two decades
eliminate electronic voting/cheating machines
strictly regulate lobbying
have federally-funded national elections

you get the idea

[Tsiyu]

49. How can a diagnosis of a painless solution be depressing?

See, imagine the American economy as a human circulatory system. If you look at the current "body," only the right little toe is storing all of the blood required by the system. No blood is going to the brain, the lungs, the heart, the arms, the legs. Only this one toe is getting all the blood.

The toe is bound to burst at any moment, though the toe can't see this.

A small, painless surgery will fix the problem and restore the flow back to the rest of the system.

Not a thing depressing there.

[dkf]

75. I don't think taxing the rich will do much in and of itself.

Let's say we tax the rich...and then we sell less bonds? Is that the solution?

[Tsiyu]

81. See, it's all abstract to you

These concepts like food, shelter, health care. You're comfortable, so you cannot hear or see those who haven't any food, shelter or health care.

Simple answer: when the PTB created jobs that did not pay enough to cover the expenses of the workers, when they took many of those jobs overseas, when they scammed the market with derivatives, when they cravenly took massive bailouts, when they helped wage expensive wars to benefit corporations and politicians, when they foreclosed on veterans' homes, when they took huge bonuses for themselves, they DEPRIVED HUMANS OF FOOD, SHELTER AND HEALTH CARE.

That's it. Increasing their taxes is the only way to provide food, shelter and health care to millions. THEN we work on using some of that capital to start small businesses.

Not rocket science. Doesn't take years of college to figure out. It's cause and effect.

[dkf]

82. That isn't part of any plans I've heard.

The fact is any tax increase just fills the hole we already dug. If people think Obama is raising taxes on the rich and giving you and I a check, I think you are not paying attention.

[girl gone mad]

50. You worry about inflation.

Seems like you should support tax increases, no?

[dkf]

71. I'm assuming both will happen.

Tax increases til we can't stand it no more then inflate when the populace rebels.

Or maybe they will go straight to inflation. If I knew then what I know now I would have bought gold.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. "Our leadership" are slaves to capitalism and the status quo.

[Warren DeMontague]

54. Yep. We should do that AND cut the military budget 50%, legalize & tax pot,

end the drug war, institute a SPHC system, and transition off fossil fuels for good.

For starts.

[eShirl]

55. Your entire schtick is playing Devil's Advocate, right?

[Capitalocracy]

59. I rarely agree with this person, but in this case, they have a point.

I agree with raising the tax rate on the rich, but we have to actually use that money to invest in the economy, not just pay down the deficit.

[eShirl]

80. repairing our crumbling infrastructure is paying down the deficit and not investing in the economy?

wow.

[blindpig]

56. Pity the rich.....

they are so put upon and only have our wellbeing at heart.

btw, 'our leadership' ain't gonna even tossle their fair heads, it's campaign season, ya know?

[begin_within]

57. The entirety of the right-wing's vision is to cut taxes.

That's the only solution they ever offer to anything. Cut taxes. Cut taxes. Cut taxes. That's all they ever say.

[dkf]

73. Yup. No vision on their side either. Kind of my point really.

If we are just going to be the reverse of them...does that get us anywhere?

[Capitalocracy]

58. Raising taxes on the rich without spending on decreasing poverty

and other economic and infrastructure development will not actually help the economy, this is true. Continuing to cut the budget (on social programs and programs that really help the economy, not things like military waste, etc.) will hurt the economy regardless of how much we tax the rich.

But I guess it's a step in the right direction in terms of the deficit... even though we really have much bigger problems right now than that.

[fascisthunter]

63. "our" my ass

[Rex]

64. Not even close, but keep trying I'm sure someone is buying!

:eyes:

[bvar22]

67. The entirity of WHOSE vision?

The Progressive Caucus has broad plans to revive the Working Class BEYOND making the RICH Pay Their Fair Share.
Returning to a Pre-Reagan Progressive Tax Structure is but one part.

To bad the White House doesn't listen.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity with The 99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[War Horse]

69. The U.S. used to lead the way in science and R&D, true

That has been replaced by shuffling and hiding money.

[hfojvt]

72. that would probably be less depressing

if you didn't oppose the idea of raising taxes on rich people.

It also is not the entirety of our vision, but it is a basic first step that should be supported by the bottom 80%, but for some reason has not gotten done. I, for one, thing we should pound and pound at it until it does get done, because it is that basic first step that future steps rest upon.

[dkf]

74. I want to go back to Clinton rates when the system actually worked.

But we need all those revenues. We can't carve out just the top rates because it's not enough.

[hfojvt]

77. well you are half right

Obama's idea - to only reverse them for those making over $200,000 still gives too much money to the rich. (http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/147)

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/gwbdata.pdf

However, if you look at 2010 as a way to measure the future of the Bush tax cuts, I would note that just 15.5% of the tax cuts are going to the bottom 60%.

Thus, reversing the Bush tax cuts for the top 40% would return 85% of the revenue.

I mean, why insist on raising taxes on the bottom 20% for a mere $3.1 billion a year? Over the last 10 years the top 1% got over $700 billion in tax cuts, and now suddenly we need $3.1 billion from the poorest 20% because of the deficit? Puh-lease.

[dkf]

79. They also raised the Medicare tax on the top earners in the ACA.

So going back to Clinton rates pushes the top rates even higher