OWS doesn't have "one message" because our country is broken in so many different ways.

[phantom power]

OWS is a gathering of people who have one simple thing in common -- they're victims (or know victims, or realize they may become a victim) of one or more of the many ways our country is broken.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Exactly!

[flamingdem]

2. That's uninspiring

I hope they can be more creative and less victim as they formulate their identity.

[phantom power]

3. "more creative and less victim" -- you sound like Heman Cain

:thumbsdown:

[flamingdem]

5. Being victims isn't going to create a vision for the future

and they need to offer some ideas that show them to be creative thinkers.

[nichomachus]

9. But they ARE victims, as most of us are too.

Just as if we are mugged in the street by thugs. We are victims. Saying that isn't a bad thing.

[HighContext]

23. Habitual Victimhood...the bane of the Left.

How can you lead if you always see yourself as a victim... and every leader as a monster?

[EFerrari]

31. No, that's what the right says about the left. From the viewpoint

that if you should stumble across humanity, the only correct response is to exploit, abuse or insult it. lol

[phantom power]

26. Firstly, I apologize, that wasn't really called for

I feel unconvinced by the "need for ideas."

There are plenty of ideas already out there, which aren't secret:

*) single payer healthcare / medicare-for-all
*) jobs programs where the govt pays people to work on badly-need infrastructure
*) ending our Endless Wars
*) decreasing defense-related spending
*) increasing taxes on the rich and well-off

None of these ideas have been taken seriously by the people in charge, and OWS is about the fact that we've passed the point of "needing ideas" and are now entering the realm of "stop making excuses and solve our problems, or we will get out the torches and pitchforks"

[ixion]

6. The Identity is clear to anyone paying attention, or who gives a damn about REAL change

rather than just paying it lip service at election tim.e

[HighContext]

24. I.E. If you have any questions, you're not paying attention and aren't concerned with REAL change.

AKA: Have faith. Don't question us.
Wonderful.
:eyes:

[RegieRocker]

4. No truer words

[Courtesy Flush]

7. We know how slippery they can be.

Think of a demand you can place on them. Sure, they'll give you that, and then come up with a dozen ways to turn it to their advantage, and screw us as always.

That's the problem. They have teams of lawyers who can twist anything to suit themselves.

[DURHAM D]

8. There is only one message -

99% of us want a functioning Democracy.

Democracy = A government in which all citizens have an equal say in decisions that affect our lives.

[kctim]

25. A functioning Democracy

as defined by who?

Those who have no say in who they can marry?
Those who have no say in paying into social security or not?
I could go on and on.

The point is that MORE people will show up to protest Wall Street corruption, than will show up to protest Wall Street corruption and animal rights and torture and the death penalty and ending capitalism etc...

The more people, the more effective, so not indluding 70+% of your support is dumb.

[DURHAM D]

27. You could not have missed the point any further. nt

[kctim]

33. Afraid I hit the point right on

and your lack seeing that is exactly why these protests are representative of maybe 15%, not 99%, of the population.

[TwilightGardener]

10. I don't know, I think the most effective protest movements are the ones

in which something specific was demanded: the right to be treated as an equal citizen, or higher pay and safer working conditions, or an end to a military draft or war, or the repeal of a bad law, or an overthrow of a bad government. I think this OWS thing needs to sharpen its focus and not just be some nebulous anti-greed statement.

[ret5hd]

11. If someone is siphoning my gas every Sunday night...

and that same someone:

steals a few bucks from my checking account every Monday
clearcuts my bushes and trees every Tuesday
slanders me to my boss every Wednesday
pours motor oil on my driveway and lawn every Thursday
extorts "protection money" from me every Friday
tells me i live in the best neighborhood EVER every Saturday...

If I want him to stop, must I give him an itemized list of my demands or is a simple "STOP IT!!!" sufficient notice?

[flamingdem]

14. Stop it doesn't work with Republicans, they don't care nt

[ret5hd]

16. But you are saying i need to say "stop it!" to each individual grievance.

stop siphoning my gas!
stop etc.

why will that approach work ANY better?

[flamingdem]

17. That's why I wrote on this thread that they need creativity

because no one is simply going to "stop it". No one will give them power, they have to acquire it in some way and it won't be by occupying is my guess.

[ret5hd]

21. stay home then. i'm sure that will show them.

flaming...right.

[flamingdem]

28. I wasn't planning to participate by occupying, are you there occupying?

Or just planning to do so?

[flamingdem]

12. They will take a risk with taking sides but otherwise they risk being bland nt

[Ship of Fools]

22. I agree with you entirely.

Notwithstanding all the hatred around here toward Ratigan, he does have a point: Time to funnel the energy into action. I think it should be about getting money out of government. To my understanding, that's where all the bullshit begins.

Just one woman's opinion.

[DURHAM D]

36. "getting money out of government" ? Really?

No, really?

[Ship of Fools]

42. ... and your point is?

[RufusTFirefly]

13. What Naomi Klein said...

"In the US media, they keep saying 'What are their demands? Why are they protesting?' But in the rest of the world, people are going "What took you so long? Welcome to the club!' Finally, in the belly of the beast, people are standing up to the force that crashed the global economy, causing untold misery. It's taken a long time, but it's finally happening."

This emphasis on the lack of "one message" is a corporate media meme that attempts -- apparently quite effectively -- to divert attention away from the importance of the uprising. We see this time and again whenever people begin to have an impact, such as when those of us who vehemently opposed the invasion of Iraq had to keep explaining that we weren't Saddam Hussein's special friends. Or later when we pushed for withdrawal from Iraq and had to keep explaining that it wasn't "cutting and running." Anyone who has warned about the climate crisis has had to repeatedly counter specious allegations that the science isn't there. Anyone who has defended evolution has had to keep addressing the notion that evolution is "just a theory."

In a free and democratic media, these brazen attempts at distraction and obstruction would still be heard, but they wouldn't have the huge benefit of a corporate megaphone to broadcast them 24/7.

[flamingdem]

15. People say why did it take so long

true .. they haven't gotten around to asking -- and what are you about exactly and how will you move forward. Eventually something has to take shape to keep it going and know if it is working

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gratuitous]

19. No, no, no

See, you need to stop and enumerate each and every grievance. Then you need to stop and elucidate each and every grievance to make it understandable not only to those who are oppressing you, but everyone else. Then you need to stop and explain why your grievance is a a grievance, and not just bad luck, poor choices, or some other excuse for why it's your own goddam fault. Then you need to stop and come up with your solution for each and every grievance. Then you need to stop and explain why your solution is superior to doing nothing. Then you need to stop and explain why your solution is the best possible solution. Then you need to stop to explain why you didn't come forward sooner. Then you need to stop and . . .

Getting the picture for how this whole thing gets blunted, shunted, stunted, and finally ignored? There will be no shortage of "well meaning" and "liberal" people trying to tell the victims of this oppressive system that they aren't really all that bad off, or that it's their own fault, or you shoulda said something sooner, or whatever. The best response to those folks is to ignore them.

[HighContext]

20. A good, simple 'message' is...'STOP THE UNFAIR INFLUENCE WALL ST. HAS ON WASHINGTON.'

But, saying 'they' do or do not have a message is silly.
...like any one person speaks for the whole protest?


Let it build steam for a while, then come forward with a message.

[belcffub]

29. I would want a more specific message

'STOP THE UNFAIR INFLUENCE WALL ST. HAS ON WASHINGTON.'

OK... great... how???

Are you proposing some regulation on campaign finance reform? OK... work with that...

Are you seeking to lessen their economic ability through increased taxes on investments? OK work with that...

no message... or vague message... people will start tuning out... and it won't take long....

[TheKentuckian]

30. How about "don't make us come back bloody minded"?

The predator class knows what they are doing. Stop it or be plundered and destroyed should be perfectly understandable.

[Honeycombe8]

32. Then THAT'S the message. There is always a way to succinctly state a message.

Maybe something like "The 99% have had enough of Wall Street running the country, and running it into the country. We're taking our country back!"

[RufusTFirefly]

34. To acknowledge this particular message, the corporate media...

... would have to face an inconvenient truth: the very system that they are dependent upon and an integral part of is where the problem lies.

[Honeycombe8]

37. They've put microphones in front of a # of protesters. None has said, that I've heard,

anything coherent about why they're there.

I get it, because I feel it. I think most people do. I'm not sure I can state a clear message.

What I'm feeling is like, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore. I'm tired of the middle class wages staying the same or going down over decades, while the mega-wealthy get wealthier and wealthier. I'm tired of paying more in income taxes than GE and Exxon Corporation! I'm tired of hearing how the middle class has to sacrifice, while billionaires and corporations whine about going back to a 1995 tax rate that is only a few % more than they pay now! I'm tired of corporations laying people off while they have trillions in savings they're holding onto. I'm tired of outsourcing to countries with no environmental regulations and with workers who get paid slave wages. I'm tired of our politicians acting on behest of the mega wealthy and ignoring the plight of the middle class and poor.

"I'm tired of people who've worked all their lives for Social Security being treated as if they're deadbeats, sucking on a tit, just for wanting what they worked for, while big corporations get billions in entitlement tax subsidies. I'm tired of the powerful people acting as if an 80 year old could possibly afford to buy a health insurance policy, if there weren't Medicare."

[RufusTFirefly]

39. With respect, I think you've got it bass-ackwards

It reminds me a little of our modern presidential process, where a bunch of personalities appear and it's the job of the party to rally behind one of them, even if the candidate's platform is at odds with the platform of the party. In 2004, for example, Democratic delegates were overwhelmingly opposed to the war in Iraq, and yet they nominated a candidate who supported it. That's exactly the opposite of the way it should work, where a group of people -- Democrats in this case -- get together and choose a candidate who best represents their shared ideals.

To tell a bunch of people what their message is and then expect them to follow it is anti-Democratic. But it's been so long since we've had real democracy that I doubt people would even be able to pick it out of a police lineup.

Together, through consensus and with no real leader (a very threatening concept to corporate media and apparently to some people on this board) the people assembled in Liberty Plaza will hash out a message that incorporates their inter-related goals. They should not have those goals imposed upon them. That never works. Just ask the people in Iraq.

Also, there is an obsession with compartmentalizing issues when that sort of thinking no longer works the way it used to. Consider that Al Gore and the late Wangari Maathai, who could both be considered environmentalists, won the Nobel Peace Prize. It's artificial and frankly, counterproductive, to put modern issues each in their own little silo. And that's a good thing. But it's a hard lesson for some of us to learn. It involves a new way of thinking. The folks at Liberty Plaza get it. The folks at the cable news networks don't, perhaps because it could prove to be a threat to their system.

And by the way: I've heard plenty of thoughtful articulate people interviewed at OWS. I guess we don't watch/listen to the same news.

[Honeycombe8]

40. I don't think I have it backwards at all. I'm trying to understand WHAT they want,

just like everyone else.

Because I get it (I think), I was merely voicing what I think is the purpose of the protests. All protests have a purpose. If they don't, there's no point. This one does. There just hasn't been anyone to communicate it very well.

As my rambling thoughts indicated, the purpose(s) are no easily stated briefly and clearly. But it can be done. By someone.

The Tea Party was this way at first. A group of various people, each having different purposes for being at a rally. Now, though, their group's message is clearer, and "leaders" appear on national TV. The group supports certain politicians. CNN now has a Tea Party contributor.

One of the people protesting was a purported communist. I am anti-communist. But that doesn't mean we don't share a purpose for the protest.

You either have a cause, or you don't. If you do, then you can state it. If you can't state it, then you don't have one. If you don't have a cause, there's no reason to protest.

[mopinko]

35. bread and roses

yes, it is an old socialist refrain, but trust me, no one remembers that.

[Toucano]

38. Kick & Rec.

Thank you!

[PETRUS]

41. K&R nt