When people say the word "government", we need to substitute the word "people"...

[kentuck]

Because we, the people, are the government. Government is not some separate entity that was not created by the people or by the elected officials of the people.

When we hear conservatives say that "government" should just get out of the way and let the market work, what they are really saying is that the "people" should just get out of the way and let businesses do whatever they want, with no regard to health or safety or the lives of working people at large.

People created the government to make lives better for all our citizens, not just a few businessmen. The Preamble to the Constitution is always relevant in this matter:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

The "government" does more than just "provide for the common defence".

[dkf]

1. Without total transparency we don't even know what's going on. .

It's so immense can we even begin to know enough to make a judgment?

[kentuck]

4. However, we need to understand the bottom line.

The people have the power. The people, thru the Democratic process, have the right to tax the wealthy at 90% if the majority so deem. Neither Wall Street nor the wealthy have any special protections if they are operating in a way that harms the people at large. They have no more individual rights than you or I, nor any less, but if their actions are deemed malevolent, we have a duty and a right to change them.

[dkf]

7. You can't stop malevolency with tax policy because it's global now.

You have to do it with legislation and attack the root of the problem. If some US hedge fund doesn't do it then some Chinese hedge fund will.

You might be pissed that some rich US citizens have been raping the world but at least they spend it here and we tax their ill gotten gains and are thereby advantaged when they screw everyone else. Once you punish the US types then the ability just moves to Asia. Then we are really screwed as the Asians buy our bonds and our assets and basically us.

Tax policy is fixing outcomes, not fixing root causes which are still exploitable.

[kentuck]

8. You are wrong.

We can control the manner in which we operate in the global economy. We do not have to give tax breaks to those businesses taking jobs overseas and we do not have to give tax breaks to them to bring their profits back to this country. You are terribly misguided.

[dkf]

11. Well I don't believe in tax breaks for anybody. Get rid of all exemptions I say.

If that is your argument you won't find me on the other side.

Exemptions are more important than rates.

But as I see it you are using tax policy as a substitution punishment for earlier misdeeds. That doesn't fix the person who originally got messed up. They never recover if the government just uses that as justification to tax it away and spend it perhaps with no benefit to whoever was injured.

[kentuck]

12. I'm sorry.

Your rationalizations do not make sense to me. Rates are important also, not just exemptions. That is called a progressive tax rate, an alien idea to many.

[dkf]

13. But a progressive rate to 90%?

Isn't that more to make up for exemptions? Or do you really believe that taxing at 90% is "sharing" vs "confiscating".

[TBF]

2. The 1% like to ignore this phrase "promote the general Welfare" nt

[kctim]

21. No they don't

they believe "promote" does NOT mean "provide."

[Cool Logic]

3. The problem is that when the government becomes one's corporate partner...

it can bring to bear all kinds of special dispensations, tax breaks, mandates, and subsidies to which other companies have no access, something we have certainly seen at GM and GE.

In the case of Solyndra, not only did they get government financing, but their customers got enormous tax breaks and subsidies from Federal, state, and local governments to buy their products. However, manufacturers of solar panels that do not have friends in high places (e.g., Solaria, Recurrent Energy), have to work harder to compete with companies that the regulators favor.

So yes, if the government is giving my competitors a one-up at my expense, "government" should just get out of the way and let the market work."

[kentuck]

5. No, government is not some separte entity....

The people voted those into power that gave the favors you mention. Therefore the people have the right to get rid of those politicians and to change those rules that give favor to one over the other. But we do not have to "get out of the way".

[Cool Logic]

22. What you advocate is a tyranny of the majority, i.e., mob-rule.

The source of the government?s authority is "the consent of the governed." This means that the government is not the ruler, but the servant of the People. Unlike individuals, the government does not have rights, it has powers delegated to it by the People for a specific purpose.

The people voted those into power that gave the favors you mention. Therefore the people have the right to get rid of those politicians and to change those rules that give favor to one over the other.

A group of voters has no rights other than the rights of its individual members. Furthermore, the 14th Amendment guarantees that each individual shall have equal protection under the law; which is to say that the government cannot "give favor to one over the other."

But we do not have to "get out of the way".

Actually, you do. For to do otherwise would be to do as Joseph Goebbels suggested: "To be a socialist, is to submit the I to the thou; socialism is sacrificing the individual to the whole."

[Kingofalldems]

15. Reads like the latest RW talking points.

[Cool Logic]

23. Well then, they must be getting smarter.

[Scuba]

6. Yes, but I've also been spelling it with a capital "P". n/t

[ClassWarrior]

14. +1

NGU.

[nc4bo]

16. I like to do the same. "The People"

In fact, I think it's a good idea (for whatever it's worth) for all of us to do the same.

[Trillo]

9. "promote the general welfare"

Just what does that mean? Does it mean a few of the Biggest Corporations can receive sufficient subsidies and tax benefits that in 2 of 3 years they pay less than zero taxes, while the vast 99% pay all the taxes they owe every year for an entire lifetime? Does it mean that the sovereign right the Federal government reserves to coin money can be contracted out to private corporations? Does it mean that the wealthy can have capital gains taxed at a lower rate than the average employee pays on wages? Is that "justice"? Is it justice when we have a larger proportion of citizens in jail than any other country?

It's pretty clear those words MAY have been applicable at a historical time some 225 years ago, but now it seems the sum total of the laws created over hundreds of years have been gamed to be beneficial to < 1% of the population.

[kentuck]

10. The power to change that....

is still with the People. We do not and should not have to accept the status quo. That is what the OWS'ers are saying.

[treestar]

17. Good way of putting it

It is easy for the right to demonize "the government" and "the politicians" but point out that it is "the People" and "the People's elected representatives" and it puts a new light on it.

[raccoon]

18. K&R. You rock, Kentuck. nt

[Bake]

19. Damn straight, and well said, kentuck!

Good on ya!

:hi:

Bake

[HughBeaumont]

20. "Government" to conservatives is dog-whistle for "Tax-n-spend-o-crats!! Hyuk Hyuk!"

They seem to forget that Republicans are in congress and Borrow-n-waste dollars on dumb shit like it's going out of style.