Memo to those who speculate on why poor people buy "expensive" fast food.

[JVS]

I don't know how some of you don't know about this. Maybe you haven't been poor, maybe you haven't even been on a road trip or day out with a limited amount of funds, but here goes.

You know those combo meals that they sell at McDonalds, the ones with the big pictures that include a sandwich, a coke, and fries? Let me tell you a little secret. Lean close because I don't want you to miss it. Are you ready? Ok, brace yourself. Poor people don't buy that. Those big fucking pictures aren't because the poor plebs that frequent the restaurant are too stupid to read. Not at all, you see. Those big pictures of what you get and the price of around $6 or $7 are for tourists like you. You're probably not intimately familiar with the menu and just want to get back to whatever it is you do that makes you so fucking special, so the managers have been kind enough to say "here's a whole set up, take it and leave". And so you go on your merry old way and when you get back to you ipad at your reading nook at home, you can post on DU about how uneconomical it is for poor people to go to McDonalds when it would be so much cheaper for them to have a garden and eat the organic squash they grow there. But that part of the menu is for you, not them.

The part of the menu that poor people order off of has a different name in different places, but the section always looks about the same. It's the value menu or dollar menu or 99¢ menu. Gone are the magnificent displays of bounty that typifies the combo. There are no pictures here. Just a list of basic items at a uniform low cost. Are there options? Sure. A dollar will get me a chicken sandwich, or a McDouble cheeseburger with double the meat of a normal cheeseburger (if you want the old double cheeseburger that will be 1.29), a small salad with dressing, a small portion of fries, 4 chicken nuggets, or a cup of coke. Now, one of the first things to be sacrificed when doing fast food on a budget is the beverage. It just isn't worth it, and people know this. They'll give you water free. Maybe if it's really hot and you're really thirsty and they've decided to sell the large soft drinks for $1, you can consider it. But first thing is first, the sandwich, and then if you think you can swing the fries, get them but it's usually better to get one huge portion of fries and split it than giving everyone a value portion.

Ok, so imagine that you're in the car with your 15 year old bottomless pit of a nephew and his 8 and 6 year old sisters. You have to feed this crew. For the nephew you get 2 of the McDoubles and a large fry. This will total $3.79 plus tax. It's not dirt cheap but it's a better deal than the big mac stuff. The 8 year old gets a McDouble, the 6 year old is a picky eater so she gets McNuggets. Now here is the tricky part, can you trust them to share a large fries without getting into a fight? If so, get another large fries, if not you need to spend $1 each on value size (i.e. small) fries. Let's say that they can get along with sharing. That makes their portion of tonight's meal $3.79 plus tax as well. Now we come to you. Do you have a couple quarters or some dimes in that ashtray that can let you go over $10? If so, you get a chicken sandwich and a salad for $2, bringing the total to $9.58 plus tax. If not, you just get a chicken sandwich and maybe your nephew is going to have to share some of his damned fries.

Ok? That's how it's done. What doesn't happen is that someone drops 20-odd bucks on a meal at McDonalds.

[Odin2005]

1. K&R

[wtmusic]

2. Or...

they're working two-three jobs, and it's all they can do to grab a burger and get to sleep before it's time to wake up again.

You get warm food without having to cook after a 12-hour day.

[anneboleyn]

7. another good point. A member of the "working poor" is often a f*cking exhausted person

and any involved cooking -- even preparing meals ahead of time during precious relaxation time -- can be tiring and stressful.

[Sabriel]

3. Don't forget the ketchup, too

Two of my students told my class that their mom used to bring home packets for them to eat. Veggies.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. I've known kids who eat ketchup sandwiches

Veggies and carbs.

[CaliforniaHiker]

15. Ketchup "soup"

I know somebody who, when he was younger, used to go to a fast food restaurant and grab a bunch of ketchup packets. When he got home he mix them with water and cook it in a pot to make "tomato soup" for himself and his younger brother.

[Capitalocracy]

77. Here in Argentina, I've seen ads on TV suggesting using ketchup for pasta sauce

And on milanesas (I guess like a thin chicken-fried steak) with cheese and tomato, a common dish here, in one of the commercials, the mother says OK, hand me cheese and tomato. And her kid says OK, here, cheese, and here, tomato, and hands her the bottle of ketchup. They're marketing it as being exactly the same as using fresh tomato.

[hifiguy]

153. That's also known as "musician soup"

by those of us who spent years playing in bars for next to nothing.

[notadmblnd]

102. I always liked my ketchup sandwiches with a slice of onion on them

But yeah, we (me and my sisters) ate them back in the 60's.

[onpatrol98]

116. Mayonnaise sandwiches...here...not lately, but I haven't forgotten.

[dixiegrrrrl]

126. Mayonaise and sugar sandwhiches on Wonder bread for breakfast and lunch

and fried potatoes and catsup for dinner. Once in a while there were cooked onions in it.
For weeks.

Later my Mom lucked out and commodities started showing up at the house.
I hated the powdered milk.
I hated even more showing the free lunch ticket at school, but I LOVED the school lunches,
best meal by far of the day.
and you know how bad school lunches could be.
There were 3 of us kids, this was in the late 50's.

Yes, I remember.

[sam11111]

22. good sig line

Top tax rates---

(graph is from Wikipedia, on page linked here about 90% of the way down)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States

[Hatchling]

33. They charge for xtra ketchup packets now. nt

[Name removed]

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[anneboleyn]

4. great post, JVS. Thank you for posting this -- excellent points.

Those big pictures are for the "visual" consumers -- as you point out, the middle-class consumers who can spend more whimsically, motivated to get what they want with ease, without having to worry about the lowest cost. I have noticed that fast food places with "dollar" menus rarely (or never) have pictures to go with the dollar items and the font often seems extra-small.

[Control-Z]

17. Also, the value menu

is always difficult to locate - tucked in between all the big pretty picture menus. At least, that's been my experience.

[anneboleyn]

57. You are exactly right. They make it almost impossible to locate, especially for someone in a hurry

-- like a mother with three ravenous teenagers in the car. You have to sit there and search for it, and the meantime, they keep asking you if you are ready to order. People give in to the pressure of the situation and order the easiest items (the combos with pictures, giant font, and convenient names)

[DollyM]

74. I always say "just a minute please" . . .

and they say "take your time, order when you are ready" Then I do . . .

[Skittles]

6. all I know is

if I'm not sure of my next meal, I am eating burger and fries, not fruits and veggies

[grasswire]

12. yep -- the fat is satisfying, the protein too. n/t

[MedicalAdmin]

109. I'm having yak jerky.

Protein, fat, and yummy.

[Lars39]

8. Thank you for this!

:applause:

[Nye Bevan]

9. When I was short of money I would buy a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter.

Lasted me over a week.

[JVS]

11. I'm not saying this is the cheapest way to eat. But when you've got your crew and are on the go...

this is how it works.

[Name removed]

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[KansDem]

90. I remember doing that!

A loaf of bread, a jar of peanut butter, and a bunch of bananas. Voila! Peanut butter and banana sandwiches!

Mmmmm...:9

[libodem]

108. Reminds me of

A former Mormon Missionary saying he'd survived on the 'Celestial Salve'.

[MedicalAdmin]

111. Bag of rice and dried beans.

Add a little salt and voila.

I would cook it up in batches and stuff it in the fridge. ANd it heats up fast in a steamer. Add the odd bit o' veggie and (thank you lord) meat and it was a pretty filling meal.

I am glad that times are not that lean anymore. The point that resonates with me the most is the one of being tired and just needing to get the kids fed. That makes total sense.

Back when I was a teacher I used to make up huge batches of food and bring it in for lunch and after school for kids to have if they needed it. I got companies and service groups to donate sometimes. Food was whatever could be scrounged. I had a group of kids who showed up regularly and I started to teach them how to cook or prep meals for larger groups. We did everything from pizza parties where they made everything to sandwich assembly lines. It wasn't much, but to a kid who is homeless or isn't being fed at home, it make a small difference.

This was a great OP.

[bengalherder]

10. Don't forget the cheap-ass burritos

at the local convienence store.

[Name removed]

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[MedicalAdmin]

112. I still eat those on road trips.

That is a lot o beef (or whatever the fuck it is) for a buck. The funny thing is that I can afford more these days and I still eat like I'm poor. And if you think about it poor people make the best food. Anyone up for BBQ?

[FarCenter]

13. Don't forget the multivitamin with minerals, because you sure didn't get them with dinner

http://nutrition.mcdonalds.com/getnutrition/nutritionfacts.pdf

[KurtNYC]

28. Vitamin supplements are a terrible value

and they can kill you early:

Vit E and prostate cancer:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/11/news/la-heb-prostate-vitamin-20111011

Supplements and women:
http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Vitamin+supplements+evidence+much+good+thing/5543134/story.html

[FarCenter]

35. I'm not proposing that you overdose on vitamins

Just that you get the RDA. Which the MacDonalds dinner described by the OP is not providing. See the MacDonald's nutrition document for vitamin A, C, and calcium content.

Alternatively, blow off the useless french fries and buy apples at the grocery instead.

[dragonlady]

43. Inner city grocery stores don't often sell apples

Full-service groceries with all the wonderful produce don't locate in impoverished areas, and without a car, it's hard to get to them.

[FarCenter]

46. The scenario in the OP was specifically driving to the MacDonalds in a car with the kids

If you can do that daily, you can probably make it to a grocery for a bag of apples every couple weeks.

Note that I would generally agree with the OP in the selection of menu items. When traveling and stopping at a MacDonalds I'd pretty much order that way.

In particular, the soft drinks and desserts are an economic and nutritional rip off. The salads are overpriced, and not necessarily healthy when the dressing is taken into consideration.

The best approach is to stick with the simple sandwiches. The french fries are marginal.

[MedicalAdmin]

115. And that sucks.

Let's get more progressives elected. No neighborhood should have to deal with those choices. It's a crying shame.

But your point (inferred) that we shouldn't blame the victims is very valid.

[KurtNYC]

104. RDA quotas are very easy to meet

glass of milk - calcium, protein
6 oz orange juice - Vit C,
handful of spinach - Vit A, Folate, Iron, Vit K

Nutrition wise American diet errs in its excess. There are only a few holes (B vits) but otherwise we eat everything to excess.

[anneboleyn]

58. Yes, there have been multiple large studies recently showing that taking vitamins is a bust or even

harmful (as in the cases you point out). I used to preach the importance of taking organic multis, easily broken down by our digestive tracts, and so on. But I gradually lost faith after seeing no change as far as my own health was concerned (this was over the course of about five-six years). Maybe they work better for other people.

[KurtNYC]

105. I find a quantifiable different in my energy and hormonal balance

when I am eating spinach every day.

I used to take zinc and a couple others but have given that up after reading more studies on supplements.

[MedicalAdmin]

114. Please - a note of caution regarding those studies.

They both are talking not about taking vitamins but overtaking them.

One part of the problem is that many over the counter vitamins, especially multivitamins are really crappy and are not digested. I've seen an x-ray of a stomach with a multivitamin in it. You could read the centrum markings on it. It passed virtually untouched through the digestive system. I hear got the idea for the tiles on the space shuttle from looking at centrum. :)

A good multivitamin is still a good idea. Some rules of thumb is 1) that if they come in a clear bottle they are probably crap as most vitamins are both light and heat sensitive. Look for a dark glass or opaque plastic bottle and 2) that if they say they have everything in them, then they likely are made in such a way that they will not be able to break down or be absorbed by your body.

I hope this helps.

[Withywindle]

14. K & R

Poor people aren't stupid.

[Starry Messenger]

16. k&r

THANK YOU. Every time some douche says that poor people should just grow their own food, I just want to stab them with a fork.

[Bunny]

101. Or, eat nothing but beans and rice because you can get a

hundred-pound sack of rice for $2.00! And dried beans for $1.00! You could eat that for a week! :eyes:

[brooklynite]

18. I think the point of the stories about this...

was that even at the $10 price point, it's possible to cook a far more nutritious meal for four at home

[Shandris]

19. You betcha it is!

Why, after the two of you have spent 12 hours each at work all day long (I mean hey, you got a whole 20 minutes for lunch!) and spent a half hour on the commute home, its a no-brainer to cook for the next hour, and do a stack-o-dishes after that. Why not turn on some Rachel Ray, I'm sure one of her 5-course meals that only use an entire sinkfull of dishes is JUST THE THING at this hour.

Every time I see a response like this...I'm reminded of the poll recently where (at least at the time I looked), 25% of DU were near the millionaire mark. YOU CAN TELL.

[eilen]

25. I work 12 hour shifts

and have to provide dinner for my family of 5.

I use a crockpot and yes, I do start cooking dinner the night before at 11 pm and put it all together at about 5:45am in the crockpot-- if I am working the day shift. If I'm working evening shift I start in the morning. Mon & Tues I had 6 to feed because my son's friend stayed over.

My week:

Mon-- I had off so I roasted a chicken and had mashed potatoes, carrots and biscuits with it.
Monday overnight I made chicken broth in crockpot.

Tues--Black bean Chili & cornbread (I started soaking the beans Sat. night.) Yes, I had to get the meat off the bones and strain the broth first as I needed the crockpot. Broth went in the frige, meat went in the freezer.

Wednes-- Turkey breast in chicken broth, leftover spaghetti noodles, frozen creamed spinach. I skimmed the chicken fat off the broth and stored it in a jar for later. Separated the broth into three 2 cup portions and put in freezer. I bought the turkey at Aldi's for $6.

Thurs--Meatloaf, mashed potatoes, gravy, green beans. Another crockpot wonder. Can do this as today is an 8 hr shift.

Friday-- Pizza night. May have the family order out, at this point I am tired and have to work a 12 hr. evening. Everyone looks forward to pizza night.

Sat. Perogies, smoked sausage, cabbage-- have off but plan to go to the 10/15 March with my local OWS and have to plan and shop for next week which is a couple hour operation.

Sun.-- I think I have to work. I think dayshift, in which case I can set up my crockpot the night before for chicken soup.

Most of my food comes from Aldi. Some stuff from Wegmans (when Aldi does not carry what I need). Their bread and dairy products are less expensive as well as the kid's (and my Mom's) snacks, the produce as well. We eat lots of apples for snacks mixed in with the junky snacks (granola/breakfast bars, tortilla chips, oatmeal raisin cookies, potato chips, frozen pizzas)

Edited to add: Yes, I come home to a stack of dishes that sometimes I leave until morning. I also shop the value menu at fast food places usually only the weekend when we are on the run with errands and bring it home to everyone. We don't usually order any soda and sometimes skip the fries entirely. Taco Bell also sells something like 12 tacos in a box which I will get if there is a friend over and they are busy playing video games. I will pick up a 2 liter soda for them too. I know, bad mommy.

[closeupready]

36. Thank you for posting this - many people struggling to make ends meet may not

realize that eating filling and tasty meals can be done even when time and money both are short.

I never had a crockpot until just last year when I bought a cheap one just on a whim. Turns out, it's really a handy kitchen gadget that WORKS at turning out good, healthy food. Many recipes require only that you add chopped veggies - so no browning stuff, adding things at the right time, etc. Just dump it in the crockpot and cook on low for 8-10 hours, whatever, and presto, you'll be having good eats for many meals. :) :hi:

[eilen]

45. You're welcome. I love my crockpot

and am working in a roaster. My mother is disabled but she can turn it on later in the day if I have something that needs less time cooking or can turn on the oven at a certain time but I usually have to keep it in the oven as that stuff is generally too heavy for her to manipulate although sometimes my husband will turn it on or she can direct one of the kids to do it. My husband works full time doing heavy labor as an electrician right now. When he is laid off, he is more help. In the last 5 years he has been laid off a lot and has had to travel which can be expensive.

I get healthy recipes from the internet to keep the food varied. I use information from Catholic Charities (Better Times Cookbook at www.justpeace.org) and Cornell Cooperative Extension to help plan and when things are tight to stretch.

[w0nderer]

117. crockpots are good investments

morning or evening fire and forget

do fry or at least 'sear' any meat that goes in, takes a short time, doesn't add a lot of dishes
and does miracles for flavor


i tend to buy cheap cuts of meat, cut them clean, cube the crappiest parts, marinate in lemon or lime juice (or orange)(ketchup will also work due to the acid) depending on season
then toss them into the frypan for a fast 'coloring' then into the slowcooker on low for the workday

and it's a nice thing to come home to a house or room smelling of nice food

also landlords of rooms where you don't have kitchen priviliges are often more inclined to allow slow cookers
or you can just store it outside in a box and pull some power out there heh

[DollyM]

76. I love my crock pot as well!

eom

[JVS]

61. I like my slow cooker..

It's really good at making something edible out of the cheapest cuts of meat. But it always requires planning.

[brooklynite]

27. Sorry, no sympathy from me...

I can make a one pot meal in about 20 minutes if I have to. Takes less time than getting the family in the car to take them TO McDonalds, sit an eat and come back FROM McDonalds.

[closeupready]

34. Have you ever been poor? From what I remember, the answer is no.

Very much to the contrary.

[brooklynite]

37. What does that have to do with the issue?

The undelying point of the OP is that poor people gravitate to the "Dollar Menu" to feed their family. My assertion is that, for the amount they're spending, you can still craft a far more nutritious meal in about the same time.

[closeupready]

39. Everything - esp. speaks to your stated lack of sympathy.

I don't want to make this thread about you or me or anyone else individually, but when you say you have no sympathy for people who are struggling because "well, I can cook something in 20 minutes", the larger perspective here is that people who are affluent have the means to afford to pay others to do chores like laundry, nannying, gardening, cleaning the home, shopping, etc. whereas people who are struggling financially DO get worn down by life and the ways in which they have to be supermoms, superdads and just super-people generally, doing everything for themselves.

[brooklynite]

40. I won't fall into cliches if you won't...

I work at a Government job; I drive a hatchback (but commute on the subway); I make the bed, do the laundry, iron the clothes, shop on my way from work (my philosophy is buying what's fresh and attractive), and buy house brands unless there's a notable difference in quality. I also have made an effort in 30-odd years of adult-hood to learn about food, learn to cook, and learn how to do it quickly to allow me to spend time doing other things I need to do. Now, one difference MAY be that, because I've traveled and live in a cosmopolitan city, I've learned that there's more variety in food than the traditional American diet, that can offer variety, flavor and economy. It does require some effort at education, but there's time available in everyone's life to become more informed. "I'm too busy" is an excuse for right now; it's not an excuse on a recurring basis.

[closeupready]

44. Well, whatever - you don't sympathize; I can and do.

Maybe most people would consider that one of my character flaws; if so, I'm glad I'm not perfect.

Peace. :hi:

[totodeinhere]

136. Exactly. Can't a poor person get a break once in a while and go to a fast food restaurant?

They probably spend most days at home cooking ramen noodles. Unless you have experienced it yourself you have no idea how overwhelming grinding poverty is. And it's especially bad if you're not used to it but you lost your job two years ago, there are no jobs to be had in your town, and your 99 weeks is up and you are trying to feed a couple of hungry teenagers with food stamps.

[droidamus2]

95. I don't quite see the OP in that light

What I see the OP saying is at those times that the poor person happens to be going to McDonalds (doesn't necessarily mean they always feed their family that way) they gravitate to the 'value' menu. Is it the best bang for their buck? Probably not, but even poor people like to 'go out' once in awhile and if 'going out' means the dollar menu at McDonalds I don't begrudge them that.

[Jakes Progress]

98. Bingo. You are right.

The snide meanies don't get it. Don't want to get it. Don't know real from fantasy.

Being poor is not easy. It is exhausting. And having some well-off know-it-alls telling them how to do it is like herman cain telling people at OWS to get a job.

I'm not poor. I have worked intimately with the poor for some time now. I have come to see how smart and resourceful they are. I certainly would have to get training and go through some steep learning curves to achieve their abilities.

[snooper2]

60. I have and eating out, EVEN AT MCDONALDS WAS A FUCKING TREAT

When dad was layed off at Chrysler mom worked at 7-11..

She would bring home all the expired food stuffs from 7-11 for us...which was cool at first donuts and danishes but got really old after a while...

When we went into town it was a rare treat to eat McDonalds or get a burger (We are talking early-mid 80's)

It was always, we have food at home, I'm making a stew.


#1 reason people eat out all the time? They are LAZY...there, I said it...

[closeupready]

62. If you have been poor, the prior poster told me that - contrary to my implication - it is irrelevant

Do you agree with that? That one's familiarity with (or - conversely - estrangement from) poverty is irrelevant to this discussion?

[snooper2]

65. I don't think you can truly undertand till you have walked in those shoes

[closeupready]

66. That's my viewpoint; obviously, everyone is entitled to their own views.

But I agree with you that if you haven't ever struggled, it's not a surprise that you can't empathize with those who ARE struggling.

[Name removed]

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[LanternWaste]

72. We often project the unmet desires of our youth

"#1 reason people eat out all the time? They are LAZY...there, I said it..."

I imagine we often project the unmet desires of our youth onto the actions of others in the present for a better sense of self-validation and self-righteousness (not an indictment-- it's just part and parcel of our human condition)

We also tend to project our own experiences onto those of others-- not so much for validation, but because it's much easier and much more convenient than to actually pose the relevant questions to the relevant demographics. We pretend it's a conclusion rather than a guess, but in the end, it's often merely a guess.

[Muskypundit]

86. Yea poor people are lazy!!!!!

Or have no time or means to make food every day.

Probably just lazy though. They are poor after all, right?

[Name removed]

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[snooper2]

91. Economic status does not dictate whether lazy or not

Some people are too lazy to learn, some people are too lazy to clean up kitchen and dishes after cooking, some people are too lazy to skin fucking potatoes.

Easier to say-

Number 6 with coke

[quakerboy]

134. I am finding

that there are a shockingly large number of people without the basic conception that there is another way, and then without the basic critical thinking to institute a different way.

There's more to it than lazy. And that's without even the psychological side of it.

[w0nderer]

119. probably want to drop a sarcasm tag there

seems sarcasm detectors are sometimes horribly missing

[Muskypundit]

121. Yea..... I forget that sometimes people cant pick it up.

[eilen]

47. I don't think you lack sympathy or empathy

I think you take your planning and cooking skills for granted because that is how you were raised. It is rather eye opening to meet young 20-somethings with children who do not have any idea how to prepare a casserole, stew or soup. They were never really taught to cook other than microwaving something warm, frying a hamburger or stove-top boxed food kits. It never occurred to me in the past and I found myself being judgy about a young woman who worked with me. She was always buying takeout and her children were obese. Then one of my team members brought in leftovers from a casserole she made and the young woman expressed surprise and wonder that she made it herself. Then we found out her lack of training/education in that area. After that we would bring stuff in and the recipe --simple things-- that she could handle.


Also, some poor people might not have a functioning refrigerator or stove. Some people leave bad living arrangements without their kitchen belongings.

[brooklynite]

56. Actually, no...

I never "learned to cook at my mother's knee". I picked it up when I moved out of my parent's apartment, and improved on it when I decided (1) I preferred to enjoy the food I was eating; (2) I wanted to eat healthier to lose weight; and (3) I didn't want to drag things out bewcause I had other things to do in the evening.

[eilen]

152. Even if you didn't learn to cook from your family,

you learned how to pick up a skill and teach yourself. There are plenty who don't have that belief in themselves.

[totodeinhere]

138. I think it's alright for a well meaning non judgmental person to try to tell poor people that they

might be better off cooking at home from scratch (assuming they have the necessary kitchen appliances.) If you care for someone and you want to see them eat as well as possible with the limited resources they have what's wrong with giving them some advice like that? You are not saying never eat fast food but you are saying, hey, with the $10 you spent at McDonald's you could have baked a chicken and cooked white rice and a can of peas, and your kids would have eaten much better. And you'd probably even be able to make jello for desert too.

Oh I forgot. Put some drippings from the chicken with a tablespoon of white flour and make pan gravy to serve over the rice. Wow, that's making me hungry.

[frylock]

50. no sympathy from you? big fucking surprise there..

shocked i tell you.

[Missy Vixen]

71. When's the last time you donated a crock pot (or crock pots) to a local food bank?

>I can make a one pot meal in about 20 minutes if I have to.<

I can make a one-pot meal in 20 minutes, too, but I don't work 12-15 hours a day, feed a bunch of kids, and we are lucky enough to be able to go to the store with our car when it's necessary to do so.

If you have all the answers, why not pop for one or more brand-new crock pots for someone in your area that would have a tough time squeezing out the $25 to buy one? There has to be people who are hanging on by their fingernails in your area. I'm sure the local food bank or pantry would deeply appreciate the donation, and from what I've read, you have the resources to swing quite a deal for a donation of many, many slow cookers w/Target or another retailer.

[LanternWaste]

73. I imagine we often believe that what we do with convenience and ease...

I imagine we often believe that what we do with convenience and ease should be done with equal convenience and ease by all others... regardless of place, time, income, situation, etc. It's often little more than mere projection when we do that, yet it does tend to advertise both our character and our empathy in ways we often don't realize.

[Capitalocracy]

79. Poor people tend to pick up crap food en route

to and/or from one of their horrible jobs.

[Name removed]

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[w0nderer]

122. hear hear

for someone who actually has a clue that poor people DON'T just drive there, go inside, sit down and eat , then drive home

ya drop in, pick it up and wolf it down on way to next place

another thing often forgotten
poor people often live in cheap places
either crappy / non functional kitchens
no TIME to shop
no PLACE to shop
or
no kitchen privileges and no cooking in the room(when i rented a room)

thankfully i'm partially out of that place now
and yes they were horrible *G*

[Capitalocracy]

125. Yep, I know from experience...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2107593&mesg_id=2112001

[Missy Vixen]

69. +1

If those stupid poor people would just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, they wouldn't have these problems.

:eyes:
:eyes:
:eyes:

:sarcasm:

[Nye Bevan]

129. Only millionaires cook dinner for their families?

When I was a kid, I *never*, ever had *any* kind of prepared food.

I didn't even *taste* "fast food" until well into my teens.

My mother cooked dinner for us every night, after working all day. And we took turns doing the dishes.

To my parents, the thought of the extra cost of buying prepared food compared to cooking a dinner was unthinkable.

Oh and BTW we were *not* millionaires. Not even close.

[Rozlee]

150. Same here.

But, then, as an entire family unit with parents chipping in and able to delegate chores, it was easy. When I found myself a single mother with two toddlers, working seven p.m. to 2 a.m. at a night club and part-time while my children were in Head Start as a grocery bagger, the dynamics changed radically. Not to mention that I was also in the Reserves. Meals were hectic and eaten at odd hours. More often than not, they consisted of cold cut sandwiches and PB&J. On my days off, I did manage to cook large pots of spaghetti, beef stew, soups, etc., that I'd freeze so that I could feed my kids during the week. But, there was no way around it. I did hit the fast food joints quite a bit. The seduction of a meal I didn't have to cook or clean up after was just overwhelming, especially if I had to leave for work right after supper. Did I feel guilty for taking the easy way out? Hell, yes. But, most of the time, I was running on fumes. I look back on those days now and am floored remembering them. I can relate to people buying fast food just to have a few merciful minutes off their feet. How the flying eff do they do it?

[lapislzi]

29. Of course it is.

That is, after I've worked a 10-hour shift and ridden two buses, stopped at the store to pick up $10 worth of beans and some marked-down chicken and maybe a bag of chips to keep the kiddies happy, and walked the five blocks in the rain and climbed the stairs because the damn elevator is broken again. Or maybe I had to detour to pick up the baby at my mom's...or throw another $10 at my pre-paid cell phone (because gods forbid I, the poor person, possess a means of communicating with my children)...

And as I unlock the door, the kids are squabbling over the TV remote, and someone's crying, and then someone knocks over a cup of the cheap soda, and I have to clean that up before I can throw the chicken and the beans together into some semblance of a nutritious meal, and the homework's not getting done, and it's 9:00 before we sit down to eat.

Possible? Yes. Easy? No way, no how.

[joshcryer]

149. Uh, $10 for 5 Banquet family dinners or $10 for one meal. Easy choice for a poor person.

I can buy five family sized Banquet TV dinners (choices being BBQ or Salisbury steak, and spaghetti when they have it) for $10.

[riderinthestorm]

157. You're ASSuming that poor person has access to a microwave and a fridge

Both of those are huge ASSumptions for many, many poor people who most likely don't even have electricity.....

Besides, you're also ASSuming the local convenience mart at the corner even HAS Banquet meals for sale, and I'll bet you $10 they aren't selling for $2 each. More like $10 each at the corner mart prices....

[hfojvt]

20. you sure are getting lots of kudos

for saying something that I kinda said six hours earlier http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2105197&mesg_id=2105271

:P

[Joe the Revelator]

21. Presentation is key.

[hfojvt]

26. you mean

it is important to share a healthy dose of contempt for those heretics who have another point of view?

"You're probably not intimately familiar with the menu and just want to get back to whatever it is you do that makes you so fucking special,"

[frylock]

51. sometimes that's what it takes to get the point across..

i think the many kudos bear that out.

[Mimosa]

23. JVS, thanks. I know you are right.

I do not eat at fast food outlets. I cook my own meals. But 10 years ago my late alkie sister who had kids did.

I know what you described is exactly how it works.

Let me make a point. My nephew and niece got fed. And actually grew up strong on what I considered 'junk food.'
I have eaten well, carefully,'green', all my life. Yet I'm not healthy. All my nieces and nephews who ate fast food are far healthier and stronger than I've ever been. Just a twist of fate, I guess. ;)

[foreigncorrespondent]

24. I don't know about the U.S...

...but here in Australia it is actually cheaper to buy a burger from McDonald,s or even a meal deal from them over actually doing grocery shopping. Now don't get me wrong, I can't stand McDonald,s and rarely eat it. We spend around $400 a week and don't even get a trolley full at our local Safeway and that will include meat, fresh and frozen vegetables, plus bread, eggs and other usual staples. Now if we were eat from McDonald's every night we would only end up spending around $300 a week. I kid you not.

[Romulox]

30. Or, sometimes, working people make bad choices.

I could feed that crew for two days with $10. I ain't judgin', but I'm also not pandering to bad decisions. :shrug:

[JVS]

31. I'm not saying it's the best choice or only choice, just that it's one choice and an easy choice...

in a fairly restricted set of choices.

[Romulox]

32. Right. We all eat 3 times a day (if we're lucky.)

I've been poor enough for long enough that I've looked at eating each day as a new crisis. $10 may stretch two days, but maybe I didn't have the $10 yesterday.

It is a complicated topic. It's hard to lift people up without seeming like you're putting them down. As always, the best nutrition program is likely to be a large-scale jobs program. People with money have more choices, as you say.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. All you people who are so self-righteous about how the poor COULD cook nutritious meals

do you realize the following:

1. Many poor neighborhoods are "food deserts." There are no grocery stores that sell healthy food within walking distance, meaning that grocery shopping requires a long bus ride.

2. If you're working two jobs, you might decide to get some sleep instead of spending a lot of time cooking. The poster above who described her schedule using the crock pot must be seriously sleep-deprived and is endangering her health that way.

3. Our schools have cut home ec. from their schedules, deeming it a "frill," and if your parents were too busy/absent/frazzled to teach you to cook from scratch, how are you going to learn? If you have never cooked from scratch or even seen anyone cook from scratch, the whole idea is terribly intimidating.

Years ago I belonged to a food co-op that served an extremely mixed clientele: a poor neighborhood, students from the university, and an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood. Most of the food there was healthy, and the members had even voted not to sell cigarettes or candy. One of the things they did for their poor clientele was sponsor a recipe contest for meals under $1 (possible in those days). Then they had the winners come in and demonstrate their recipes.

Now if there were widespread programs like this, then maybe we could blame poor people for not eating healthier food. But I still wouldn't blame anyone who chose sleep over cooking.

[Fumesucker]

41. If that poster is driving while sleep deprived she's endangering a lot more than just her health..

Driving while drowsy is about as dangerous as drunk driving.

[eilen]

48. I probably would like more sleep

I get about 6-6.5 hours during the week at night. 7-8 on weekends, like most people.

If my cat doesn't decide it needs feeding RIght Now! Meow! at 4 -4:30 am, my husband's alarm goes off at 5:30. He gets up and showers, I try to roll over to his side of the bed when he gets dressed so he has a place to sit. Then sometimes I get back to sleep, otherwise I ponder life for about 5 min, while he gets downstairs and makes coffee, feeds the cat and I get up. If I get back to sleep, my nephew's alarm rings at 6:30. If he doesn't get up with that, my mother calls his cellphone from his room at about 6:45. That usually wakes me up at that point. If that doesn't the dog gets up and makes her needs known. If I'm working days, I get up with my dh anyway. If I'm on evenings, I get up by 7. My shifts vary 7-3:30, 7-7:30, 11-7:30, 11-11:30, 3-11:30 and sometimes I get out on time. Today I don't have to leave for work until 2:30 (I'm doing 3-11:30). Since I got home at midnight and couldn't get to sleep until about 2, I slept in until 8. Then I dropped my son off at school, did banking, picked up some groceries (out of bread, needed meatloaf mix) and got dinner prepped. Mom will start it at about 3:45 in time for dh to get home, the kids out of school.

When you have a full house, only the teenagers get uninterrupted sleep.

I drive/have a car which makes things easier and sometimes more complicated. My nephew has a car and takes that to school.

I don't think I'm any more tired than anyone else. Everyone is tired. We have 2 new mothers on our floor who are tired. I think I sleep better than them.

I'm pretty alert at work. I work in a high stress environment. Things move pretty fast there, it is very busy.

[Left Brain]

135. Exactly, Lydia

I guess what really surprises me most on this thread is the inability for professed liberals to put themselves in other peoples' shoes regarding this issue. The "I judge everyone else by what I do" way of thinking is so much more the M.O. of teabaggers. It maddening to see such a pronounced lack of empathy.

For the folks patting themselves on the back because they fix meals in advance and have a crock pot, have a garden/tend to a community garden, believe people who eat fast food are lazy, and seem to have all the solutions to the fast food issue in general, I would ask you to walk a mile in any of these shoes before you pass judgment:

- You and your family live in your car, or in a tiny apartment where you have no storage space, no freezer, no big fridge/oven. It's the most you can afford. Where on earth are you going to store a month's worth of supplies (let alone a week's worth) such as canned goods, fresh meats, veggies, and other perishables? That's what it means to be poor.

- Your budget is so tight living on minimum wage that it falls short most months. You don't own a crock pot, and you don't even have the means to purchase a used one from Goodwill. That's what it means to not have the means.

- You're a single parent working two jobs to keep a roof over the heads of yourself and your two small children, minimum wage, no child support, and you're anemic. Where on earth do you find an ounce of extra energy to make meals in advance, even if you could afford a crock pot and storage supplies and had adequate fridge and freezer space at your disposal? The poor face limited choices like this every day.

- What if you have no yard, no patio, no green space, and between juggling two jobs and tending to your children, there's nothing left of you to give to a community garden? Better yet, what if you do have the time and energy to devote to a community garden. You may be able to pick and use fresh veggies daily for you and your family in the summertime and fall, but what about the winter? You have no canning supplies (or know-how), limited storage space, no freezer space, and certainly no money to acquire these things. Solutions to being poor aren't as cut-and-dried as one might think.

These aren't outlandish, pie-in-the-sky scenarios. I talk to people -- families -- every day who live under these kinds of pressure. They live hand to mouth and paycheck to paycheck. Heck, lots of people do, not just poor folks. It's not a crime. Not yet, anyway.

People are just trying to survive the best and most feasible way they can with what they have. Society has given many of them few viable options. For god's sake, let's not judge them for making the best of the limited choices they do have.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

148. The downtown churches here feed people who live exactly like that

This "I can do it. Why can't you?" attitude is both puzzling and disturbing.

When I was volunteering down in Mississippi after Katrina, the priest in charge of the joint Lutheran-Episcopal relief center told us, "You can either judge people or serve them. You don't know their circumstances."

He went on to tell of a former volunteer who got all upset because a woman took 10 cans of tuna from the free food shelf. He informed the volunteer that the woman was housing 15 homeless relatives and needed all the help she could get feeding them. He continued that even if she had been taking the tuna to sell, it may have been her only source of cash income. Or even if neither was the case, she might have PTSD and feel secure only if she hoarded food. In any case, it was not for the volunteers to judge.

Sleeping in a school gym with 150 other volunteers and living on the same type of tasteless food that the people we helped were getting was a profound experience, only we knew that we'd be able to go back to our normal lives after a week.

[totodeinhere]

140. You're talking about the working poor. And your points are valid. But a lot of newly poor people

are those who lost their job in this recession. Many of them would have more time on their hands to cook from scratch and many of them come from middle class backgrounds and might be more likely to have learned how to cook. And I don't think it's that intimidating. I don't claim to be an expert chef, but I pretty much taught myself to cook. It's something that more people should try.

[Nydari]

42. Yep. If you're really hungry, skip the fries and get

two McDoubles. You get a more filling meal for $2. We do this for dinner sometimes at the end of the month when we're really low on funds.

People don't really figure in that poor people generally don't have the funds to stock a pantry with 'staples', so cooking at home isn't as cheap as it seems. You never have the extra cash to get much in the way of pots and pans, sugar, flour, etc. When you have $10 to last you a week, there isn't much of a way to do anything than buy off the value menus.

Back in the 90s I shared an apartment with a friend and we both worked minimum wage jobs. The *only* food we ever cooked at home was ramen noodles or spaghetti w/ragu that we got on sale. We had like 2 small pots, a frying pan and some bowls and plates, all from Goodwill. I mostly ate Taco Bell because, back then, you could get a plain bean and cheese burrito for $0.49.

[JoeyT]

49. And when you're broke cheap

fat, sugar, and salt off the dollar menu may be one of the few things you can afford that hit your pleasure centers that you're still capable of doing after work. God forbid anyone below a certain income level manages to eke any pleasure out of anything at all in life.

No, it's beans and rice for meals and sackcloth and ashes for wardrobe. Anything else is frivolous.

[ceile]

59. +1

[laundry_queen]

68. +10000 nt

[lunasun]

93. Same folks used to be judgemental about food stamps and unemployment too....until some now

need it themselves ...then it is OK of course and understandable.

The difference is they were middle class b4 the recession,
raised and living in middle class areas,
getting educated in different schools,
and although not poverty level for life can tell you all about the right way poor people should live...never having been there themselves.

How would they know there is no fresh fruit market in poor areas, but is ignorance an excuse for judgemental scorn?

Had a single friend who got downgraded in her job and started saying she was now at poverty level
Well when I pointed out that poverty level figure was for a family of 4, she ignored the comment and just went on about why she can not get food stamps ( you make to much money that is why).

She was always against poor being helped but now that she perceives herself to be one then all is OK and even lies to get energy assistance for her house !


Sorry but seen too many people like this to know it fits a certain part of society.
Good post-tell it!

[TwilightGardener]

97. That's pretty much it. Sometimes a burger and fries out of a bag can be the highlight of the day.

Hell, I'm home all day, and I'm not poor, but I still make a McDonalds or Wendy's run with my kids a couple times a month.

[bread_and_roses]

154. ++++ and besides, that $ burger is going to fill you up more than an apple and a

let's see, an apple (about $.50 ea where I live - and yes, cheaper by the bag but a bag costs at least $4 these days where I live and that's going to be too much if you're trying to scrounge out something to eat for a few bucks) - so, an apple and a what? What can you get with the other $.50 that will give you as many calories as a McBurger?

I detest fast food but I have nothing but scorn for the food police so ready to tell "the poor" what and how they should eat.

[JoeyT]

160. Yep.

My motivation is about the same. I eat fast food very infrequently, and it usually makes me feel awful for days afterward. I just don't like the whole "Poor people don't deserve pleasure" attitude, or the privileged attitude that insists everyone can afford to eat a certain way, or even has access to it. If people really want to see the poor get away from fast food, education and fighting for decent pay are the answer. Neither of those will work alone.

Once people know real food tastes better than fast food, and have the remaining energy after work and the money to buy the ingredients, fast food consumption would drop.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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[riderinthestorm]

63. Yup, you have to have a kitchen to make meals (higher rent)

and utensils ($$ to even buy pots, pans, spices, silverware etc), and the biggie - electricity to cook and store food (more $$).

I had a friend who was very wealthy and I'd go visit her house and she had the most excellent food, wine, beverages, household items like napkins and such. We'd get into conversations about how much some of these items cost and since she had enough money to buy in bulk, she could purchase these items MUCH cheaper than I could. She had enough money to buy a case of her favorite wine so the per bottle price was much lower. Buy 2 cases and each bottle price was even lower again. You have to be rich to be able to really save money and you have to have the space to store the extras until you need it.

Poor people are buying each item one at a time, and frequently at the local convenience store at the maximum price. They often don't have storage space for a lot of food items at one time (if they have access to a kitchen). They may or may not have electricity that month depending on which utility got paid (the phone is usually prioritized since you need communication for school, work, children etc.)

There are a lot of people on this thread who don't understand the logistics of being poor and how hard it is. Just whip out the crockpot and fill it with yummy stuff isn't nearly as simple when you can't find half the items you may need for a casserole at the local convenience mart, the prices are marked up to insane levels ($8 for a lb of butter, or $6 for half gallon of milk that's about to expire), you have to have electricity to cook in the crock pot if you are even lucky enough to have found one that worked at your local Goodwill (and been able to afford to buy it). You have to have electricity and roommates that won't steal your food while it's cooking in the crockpot....

I really hate these threads. They make my stomach hurt from the tension of reliving those days. The OP's theoretical family at McDonalds is sooooo true on so many levels. I've had too many days when that simple $1 item off that menu was my only "big" meal of the day. The rest was stolen saltine packets from the convenience store soup area, or as many Mini-moos as one could swipe from the coffee bar.....

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

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[Capitalocracy]

92. At a one-room apartment where I used to live with my wife...

when we rented it, it had a little closet with a sink referred to as a "kitchenette". It had a gas connection, but nothing attached. We had to buy a little two-burner gas stove to put there. But guess what? Turns out the gas connection didn't actually work. Haha, gotcha. Well, the landlord said he would fix it... never happened. For awhile we were using a camping stove. The landlord said he'd pay for the gas canisters for it until the gas connection was fixed. Also never happened, and they got expensive real quick. So when cooking, we'd have to either make something that all fits in one pot, or make a decision (tonight should we have hot spaghetti with cold sauce, or cold spaghetti with hot sauce?) We eventually switched to a hot plate, yet another expense, which took AGES to cook anything because of the low threshold for automatically shutting off when it actually got hot enough to cook something, and of course it promptly broke and had to be replaced.

Oh, but poor people are just lazy.

[AtheistCrusader]

99. Might have saved your life.

Propane devices like camp stoves, and natural gas, do not mix. Different jets.

Lazy landlord might have saved you from a fire, with his laziness.

[Capitalocracy]

124. No, it was a small gas stove and another small camp stove.

Two separate stoves, one of which we were never able to use.

What actually may have saved our life was the fact that enough gas didn't come out of the wall to light the stove. The connection was all messed up and it wouldn't light for the guy that installed it, but if it had, maybe he never would've noticed the connection was bad, and we would've been using an unsafe gas connection.

There was a fire in that building while we were there, btw, in another apartment.

[w0nderer]

127. +1 n/t

[yeswecanandwedid]

64. The value menu is where it's at...

Seriously. I used to waste a ton of money on food. After My car broke and I had to figure out how to save money, I switched to the value menu. Now if I eat breakfast, two burritos at Wendy's or McDonald's, it's like $2.19. If I add in a coffee, it's like $3.25. Lunch, if I go out, it's the same thing. I haven't purchased a "value meal" for quite some time now.

One of the cool side effects of this which I didn't expect was weight loss. Even though the quality of the food is shit, the amount of calories I consume eating a McDouble and a Value Fry is WAY less than that of a Big Mac Value Meal (Big Mac, Medium Fries, Soda).

So I've saved money, and lost weight.

Just my $0.02.

[laundry_queen]

67. Totally bang on

I saw some shit a friend posted on facebook a few weeks ago comparing a couple of healthy meals (beans and rice, chicken and salad) with a Big Mac meal saying how a healthy family meal was half the price of a McDonalds meal for the whole family. First - you need something to cook beans in. Second, they didn't even add seasonings in for the chicken (salt and pepper, really? that's it? Do poor people not have taste buds?) or no salad dressing for the 'salad' (which was nothing but lettuce) And third (and yes I'm going to shout) POOR PEOPLE DON'T BUY THE $7 MEALS! First, like you said, the drink is a total waste of money. Second - why would you buy a $5 burger when you can get 2 double cheeseburgers for half of that? Whoever made that facebook crap up has no concept of 'poor'.

There is no doubt it is possible to cook healthy on a very tight budget (ahem, single mom of 4, full time student, no job) but it takes plenty of time and effort and knowledge. It also means a little leeway in your budget is needed if your kids don't eat something 'yukky'. I'm guessing in a really poor household, you cannot waste food so cooking something healthy that one of your 4 kids might not eat and wasting it (and risking that kid might go to bed hungry) seems like a worse choice than going to McDonalds where the kids will be happy, will eat their food, will go to bed with a full tummy and it's less stress on your 'working 3 jobs' self. Not to mention the savings on electricity/gas for cooking (not insignificant). I think there is a world of difference between paycheck to paycheck &barely making it and POOR. Most people think they are the same. They are not.

[racaulk]

70. K&R!

[laylah]

75. Awesome thread, JVS!

Thanks for posting this! K&R! :thumbsup:

[Capitalocracy]

78. Sometimes I order food instead of cooking

because I need to work and will be earning slightly more during the time I would've been cooking than what I spend on the food.

[lunasun]

80. Many poor did not have family who taught them how to even cook/shop so these

people who ' know they could do better ' may have not had the same background/education.
Schools do not help either .
They promote junk food as meal IMO too.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NOLALady]

146. Really?

Poor people did not/do not know how to cook?

[Politicalboi]

81. Or go to Lil Caesar's

And get a large Pepperoni Pizza and some crazy bread for about $10.00.

[notadmblnd]

118. If you buy their hot n ready for 5.00 you can feed 4

2 slices each. Throw in a one liter for 1.50 and you're feeding a family of 4 for less than 1.50 a person. Heck, it's 1.75 if you throw in a .99 cent bag of chips. Is it healthy? Probably not. But it will keep you from starving.

No one can feed that many people for less than that at home. It cost that much just to turn on the stove.

[totodeinhere]

141. Once of those can feed four? Heck, I can sit down and eat one of them all by myself. n/t

[madrchsod]

82. well said....

[abelenkpe]

89. You really need to post this for repubs to see

They're the ones who want to make sure the poor can't spend their money on fancy things like fast food.

[lunasun]

94. This web site is a good place from prior postings I have read....it is not just repugs

[abelenkpe]

106. really?

Thats kinda sad. :(

[WCGreen]

96. Whe I was in college, I ate off the bargains durring the week

at the various restaurants around campus and then had eggs and hot dogs and noodles over the weekend...

[Dutchmaster]

100. ITT: rationalizations for eating shitty fast food.

yeah, yeah, it's McDonald's fault your fat. terrible thread. unrecced.

[Shandris]

145. Who the FUCK said one fucking word about 'being fat'?

Fuck off and die, troll. Typical right-wing meme-spewing filth, oh, imagine that at 110 posts. :eyes:

[RedRocco]

155. the ITT: is a major clue

4chan bullshit

[etherealtruth]

103. ... but, but .... poor folk should do as "I say"

... if they're poor they don't deserve small pleasures or small conveniences.

That is the gist of what I have read here on DU ... DU is admittedly mild in comparison to much of the rest of the culture (and the majority of folk respond in these threads with compassion) but there are always those that know exactly what the poor should do.

[TNLib]

107. Yep and the same goes for taco bell and wendy's

taco bell .99 menu. I still thinks that around. That's what I lived off of in college. that and ramen.

[Papagoose]

110. One of my secret, guilty pleasures is a McDonald's cheeseburger

Yes, I actually like them...when I eat them by choice. I do find myself on occasion (like today, the day before I get paid), quite low on funds. My wife and I were able to each eat two McDoubles and share a cup of Sweet Tea (my other guilty pleasure) for $5. We're having hot dogs (unhealthy but cheap) for dinner.

I try to eat "right" and teach my kids good eating habits so they avoid the weight issues I have dealt with, but McDonald's and other fast food places do serve their purpose...sometimes for pleasure, sometimes for convenience, sometimes for economic necessity.

[appleannie1]

113. I never get a beverage, no matter where I eat. All chains have a value section.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

120. A lot of places charge you for a cup of water. I walk out then.

[sandyj999]

123. That is the truth.

[Capitalocracy]

128. Here in Argentina, supermarket inflation beats restaurant inflation sometimes

There have been periods where we noticed it's actually cheaper to eat out than to buy food to cook, even if we're talking lentils and rice (yum). Good times. But restaurant inflation quickly catches up, and I have to cook again. Yet we're still poorer and poorer either way.

[Harmony Blue]

139. Same case in Florida

In most situations it is more cost efficient to eat out, then to go to the grocery store to buy meat and produce and then make a meal. But this is why I highly advise people to buy produce from a farmer's market.

Most New Yorkers and Canadians that come down to Florida are flabbergasted at the prices of food in the south. It is sad compared to how cheap food is sold up north.

[Nye Bevan]

130. I never even *tasted* "fast food" until I was well into my teens.

No restaurants, no fast food, no prepared food of any kind. To my parents, it was simply unthinkable to spend extra money on prepared food, compared to cooking a cheap and nutritious meal. So my mother cooked every night after coming home from work, and we took turns doing the dishes. For my family, *this* was how it "was done".

[CreekDog]

131. I wonder if the people who don't think we should be paternalistic towrards the poor

are ever those who want to limit where they can spend their money or food assistance?

that said, I tend to agree with the OP, but not on the basis of convenience but because so many of the working poor are in substandard housing situations (many times just temporarily, when one might have to eat like this, for a time). those housing situations often lack proper kitchen, food storage or refrigeration options.

so yes, though i don't think it's good in the long term, it may be part of a sensible strategy towards food and eating in trying circumstances.

[humbled_opinion]

132. Are you nuts?

Seriously....

I was poor.

Poor people do not eat at fast food restraunts (EVER), (dumpster maybe) or unless someone else is buying or they are having a free giveaway, or maybe you are thinking of the 25 free packets of ketchup and a free cup of hot water that make a tasty tomatoe soup. Take the money you would spend on this junk that won't fill you up and feed your family like I used to feed mine..... Two packages of 69 cent hot dogs, a can of 49 cent tomatoe sauce, and a bag of 99 cent macaroni make one hell of hot dog stew that fills six hungary bellies.

It really irks me when this fast food addicted, spoiled generation doesn't even have a clue to what it's really like..... but wait....

You may actually get a taste of what being poor and being hungary really is.... When austerity hits and they take away the WIC and the EBT's and even the minimum wage jobs are gone.....

Then you better know how to fend for yourself because there is going to be some mass chaos and many millions will die because they don't have a clue.

Be smart get a clue....

[totodeinhere]

143. Please tell me where I can buy hot dogs for 69 cents, tomato sauce for 49 cents?

Those days are long gone. Where I shop the cheapest hot dogs are over a dollar and the generic tomato sauce is 99 cents for a small can. You can buy a box of generic macaroni and cheese for 99 cents, but then you need milk and margarine for that too. I guess you might be able to substitute a package of ramen noodles.

[Missy Vixen]

158. I'll bet you walked uphill five miles in the snow, barefoot, to get to school

>It really irks me when this fast food addicted, spoiled generation doesn't even have a clue to what it's really like<

Oh, yeah. Nice broad brush. You don't wield it well, however.

My parents didn't have a lot, but they managed to keep us fed. After all, we lived in a house with electricity, a working stove, refrigerator, and many other items (like pots and pans,) we could cook the "69 cent" hot dogs in. When I moved out of the house, I had $10 a week for food. I was living on minimum wage, but I was living in a house with the above-mentioned conveniences. I even got to wash and dry my clothes without lugging them on the bus to a laundromat once a week, like others are forced to that can't afford the luxury of a washer and dryer on premises.

Those that long for the "good old days" of 69 cent hot dogs and dollar macaroni have no clue how things are for the "new poor". What's more, they don't care to. "Poor" now is not the halcyon days of going without cable TV and visiting the scratch-and-dent grocery store my mother shopped in once a week. It's living in a society that thinks you should not exist because you're not one of the 1%. Calling those working 12-15 hours a day to keep a roof over their kids' heads (or moving the car once or more a day so they won't be kicked out of whatever safe place the parent in question could find because they're homeless,) a "spoiled generation" is beyond ridiculous.

Here's some facts: Those who grew up during the fifties and sixties had a functional social safety net. Kids went to Head Start, and got an excellent public education. It was possible to live on one income, so the other adult in the home could take care of the million and one things that happen each day in a household with kids. That one-income wage earner most likely had health insurance through their employer, and due to the efforts of strong unions. My parents would have been driven into bankruptcy or worse treating my mom's rheumatoid arthritis if my dad's employer, Boeing, didn't offer such excellent health benefits in those days.

These protections are ALL gone now. Those who are poor spend every day of their lives just trying to get through that day without a crisis. If that exhausted parent brings home a value-menu cheeseburger or taco for her kids because she can't face trying to cook a package of hot dogs, some macaroni and a squirt of ketchup for "flavor" on a plug-in hot plate (if she's lucky enough to have THAT,) one more night, maybe I'd better worry about my own life before judging her.

[Jamastiene]

133. K&R

[DeSwiss]

137. K&R n/t

[Hubert Flottz]

142. Because if you can feed yourself and 5 kids 2 tacos each for ten dollars

and you can't buy a square meal for yourself and 5 kids at Krogers for less than 30 dollars and all you have is 9 dollars and the change in your glove box, what would you do?

Tomorrow night we teach the kiddies dumpster diving 101...meanwhile Dick Cheney planns his next lawyer hunt in an undisclosed dude ranch/bondage bar. Why wouldn't America be pissed off?

[killbotfactory]

144. Here's another reason:

If you've been working all day, especially in a low wage exhausting job where you are on your feet 7 hours of the day. (low wages and exhausting jobs seem to be linked), what do you choose?

McDonalds Value Menu: $3-5 and your kid is fed in a few minutes, and you're home in a couple more minutes.

Supermarket: Fixings for a meal? Much greater than three bucks. Your kid may or may not eat it depending on their mood. If you forget to save the leftovers, it's more expensive than McDonald. Plus dealing with your kids in a supermarket can be extremely stressful, especially if they haven't napped, or are stimulated from day care. 15 minutes if you are lucky and your kid behaves themselves, sometimes over a half hour ore more plus your kid breaking down in a fit if you don't get a certain item or want to leave before they do. Add on prep time for the meal and doing the dishes. If you have a partner that works opposite shifts, you get to do the meal while trying to watch your kid by yourself. If you forgot to do dishes the other night, you get to clean those too before you cook. Fun!

[joshcryer]

147. It's a VALUE choice. It's all about calories for the buck. You got it completely dead on.

Eating healthily and fresh will always cost more (unless you're growing your own food, maybe).

[geomon666]

151. A cheeseburger? Fuck that. That's 30 extra cents.

Not to mention the best and cheapest way to get fast food is to be friends with someone working (preferably the manager) and then you can get some of those nice cold but free after hours burgers that typically either get thrown out or are frozen to be warmed and sold the following day.

[TBF]

156. Yup - in college I worked fast food and managers would quietly feed us the mistakes. nt

[Missy Vixen]

159. Let's think good thoughts for people who know others are hungry, and help out.. n/t