Question for those who lived through and remember the Vietnam draft.

[Xithras]

As I was prepping my early class today, a couple of students walked in and they were talking about the draft and various ways they would have reacted to it. At one point, they asked me a question I couldn't answer:

Let's say that you received a draft card and reported to the draft board, wanting to get out of the conscription. Once in front of them, you state that you don't want to fight, and give this reason; "I disagree with the actions of the United States in fighting this war, and want North Vietnam to win. I want the United States to be defeated, I am actively working to end this war, and do not believe that I can offer this government any useful military services."

What would have happened? Would they have sent you to war anyway? Sent you home? Sent you to prison? American citizens obviously have the freedom to hold any political viewpoint they want, so what happens when a potential draftee has a viewpoint that is in direct opposition to the needs of the military?

[SoCalDem]

1. You would have been told that if your number came up and you refused to "go"

you would be jailed.

[Xithras]

3. Ah

They weren't talking about refusing to go, but about making it clear that if they reported, their personal opinions supported the "enemy du jour".

So the military wouldn't really care what their opinions were, even if they followed orders?

[NNN0LHI]

5. That would probably lead to an "accident", in boot camp

A fatal "accident."

Don

[SoCalDem]

8. The draft system was a machine that processed young men into the military

they did not care what those young men thought. Rich boys bought their way into colleges all over the country, and stretched out those deferments.

Poor young men registered..asked to be deferred, and then waited to see of their number came up. Many chose to enlist in the Navy or Air Force, to avoid becoming the fodder of the Army.

Some fled to Canada..others just went to jail.

[Blue_In_AK]

42. I had a good high school friend who fled to Canada

where he became a world-renowned nuclear physicist. I think he did come back to the US after the amnesty, but I always admired his stand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Isgur

[MilesColtrane]

13. "So the military wouldn't really care what their opinions were, even if they followed orders?"

I'm sure any draftee who expressed such an opinion would receive a little "extra attention" during boot camp.

But yes, unless a person could demonstrate the status of conscientious objector, they'd be conscripted regardless of their political views.

[pinboy3niner]

18. "Son, you seem to have a high aptitude for the Infantry"

Welcome to the Army! :)

[Kingofalldems]

2. Sent home--I am not sure of the classification--probably 4-F

[Xithras]

7. Hmm, now I have an answer each way...

Ah well, it was more of an idle curiosity thing anyway. They asked, and I had no clue and had never thought about it (I was born in 1974).

I was just curious because, unlike a regular conscientious objector, the person isn't refusing to fight, but is just saying "I happen to support this particular 'enemy'".

It was an odd question that I didn't have an answer to.

[Kingofalldems]

14. The person basically said he was a communist

He would be rejected for this. CO status is a different story. It would have had to go through a local draft board consisting of prominent (rich) citizens, who would make the decision.

[WinkyDink]

9. Surely you jest?! In no way!! Guys got nose operations, dental braces, etc., But "4-F" just for

blathering? Uh, no.

[socialist_n_TN]

10. I don't think so. That statement to the draft board

was political and would have been treated as such. The first answer would have been correct IMO. However, I wasn't a lawyer then and I'm not one now. My opinion is that they would have told you you can have any opinion you want about government policy, but if you refused induction, you would be jailed. And further that if you actively worked against the military WHILE in uniform, you would be court mariialed and jailed.

[Jackpine Radical]

27. You're exactly right.

I was drafted, served in VN, & wrote CO letters for people after I got out.

Just voicing an opinion would have had no effect on the induction process. And I saw people jailed for working against the war from the inside. (I was involved in the antiwar effort after returning from VN & before getting out of the Army but always made sure I was too small a fish for anyone to want to fry.)

[Hepburn]

4. I lived through this and I do not recall anyone doing this.

Either they went, went ROTC, got a deferment, classified 4-F or told the draft board to fuck off and then went to Canada.

[WinkyDink]

12. Nobody told the Draft Board anything before emigrating! Unless you were not being literal. :-)

ROTC = automatic VietNam. They needed 2nd LTs.

No students got defermants once the Birthdate Lottery began. I know, because a fellow classmate drew #1: 9/14/49.

[badtoworse]

28. Student deferments were available after the lottery

I was in the first lottery and drew #104. That would have gotten me drafted in 1970 and in 1971. I graduated in 1972, but did not get drafted because they drafted up to #75 that year.

[Brother Buzz]

33. Not for this dumb draftee

They stopped issuing new deferments in 1971. Drafted in 1972.

[badtoworse]

40. I got my deferment in 1968 - nt

[WinkyDink]

6. You would have been on point in a big hurry.

[ChandlerJr]

11. Muhammad Ali did it

"I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong... No Vietcong ever called me nigger"

He was charged with (but never imprisoned) draft evasion and spent 4 years fighting it in court.

The Supreme court ruled in his favor.

[Xithras]

15. I just googled that. Ali actively refused to serve.

That's an important distinction. These two kids weren't talking about refusing, but making it clear that by drafting them, the military would be "handing a weapon to a supporter of the enemy."

[DonP]

23. Draft Boards didn't really give a shit what you thought

Besides you never saw or met with the actual draft board anyway. They did everything by mail and once in a while by telegram.

If you refused to take the step forward and raise your right hand, after your physical, for the oath, or refused to show up when called, a Federal warrant for your arrest would be issued and you'd go to court and, probably Fort Leavenworth Federal prison.

[WinkyDink]

16. He didn't just iterate this. He expressed his Muslim religious beliefs, as a Quaker might have.

Soon after becoming heavyweight champion, Ali decided to change his religion and joined the Nation of Islam (Black Muslims), taking the Muslim name "Muhammad Ali." The Vietnam War then interrupted Ali's career. In 1967, he was inducted into the military, but he refused to serve, saying his religious beliefs forbade him to fight. While some Americans praised Ali for risking prison to stand up for his beliefs, others called him a draft dodger and traitor. The government charged him with violating the Selective Service Act; his titles were taken from him; and he was not allowed to box.

After a long court battle, Ali was convicted of draft evasion and sentenced to five years in jail and fined $10,000 fine, but in another lawsuit in 1970, a judge ruled that Ali could still box professionally. The new heavyweight champion was Joe Frazier, and a match was scheduled et for 8 March 1971. Newspapers called it "The Fight of the Century." In the fifteenth round, Frazier knocked Ali down. Ali got back up, but all the judges named Frazier the winner.

That same year, Ali won his legal battle when the U.S. Supreme Court said he was not guilty of draft evasion--He should not have been drafted at all.
http://novaonline.nvcc.edu/eli/evans/his135/events/ali98.htm

[Kingofalldems]

17. Difference was he didn't claim he was rooting for the Viet Cong

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. You might be given a medic bag

But you still went.

Or did jail time

[elleng]

20. Don't really know, but I wonder whether they would give anyone

the time to recite the harangue. 'Nothing happening here, move on.'

Would be up to the sargeant to kick ass, and of course squad members would respond in their own ways.

[TreasonousBastard]

21. I don't remember anyone trying that...

but I don't think it would work.

Besides, the draft board simply classifies you, and there's nothing that I know of that takes into account what you say to the board that affects your draft classification. Even being a conscientious objector involves several appeals and much paperwork.

Now, you had two physicals to go to, and there you can say all sorts of things that could get you flagged for whatever. The first physical is for classification and you could get rejected for physical and psychological problems, while the second physical is essentially to see that you're still breathing after you've been drafted. Most of the people who were sent home had obvious physical problems, but there were stories...

When I was drafted, before taking the oath we were told that we had the right to refuse service, but exercising that right would cost us some jail time and other serious problems down the road. The next way out was to "flunk" basic training, but they made that very difficult to do.

At any rate, in or out of uniform, I don't think it's a good idea to tell people who have absolute control over your life that you harbor traitorous thoughts.

[Xithras]

22. Good point.

"I don't think it's a good idea to tell people who have absolute control over your life that you harbor traitorous thoughts."

That's a good point, and I'll make sure to mention it to them Friday. I don't know that their conversation had really gone there.

[frazzled]

24. You would have to have gotten Conscientious Objector status first

And that was a rigorous process. You couldn't just walk in and say "I don't believe in this."

My brother got CO status, having to prove a long history of opposition to violence (and spent his time doing draft counseling at a large state university). My husband's best friend was also a CO, and was sent to do medical photography at a hospital.

But if you had a number low enough, and your number was called up, and you passed the physical, you were going to Vietnam.

The biggest mistake your hypothetical makes is that you asked your "students." Until the very end of the war, students in good standing had deferments. This would not have been a question for them.

[HereSince1628]

25. I think your students should see how a generation did react...

http://wn.com/Alice%27s_Restaurant_%28film%29

[Xithras]

26. Thanks everyone.

I think I have the gist of it. You're probably going to war anyway, and you're just reducing your chances of coming home alive.

For a little context, the students were two young men of Indian descent (one of whom is a Kashmiri Muslim, and is one of my all time favorite "full of awesome stories" students), and they were just having a theoretical discussion about what would happen if the U.S. went to war with Pakistan, which they wouldn't support. That quickly led to the realization that the U.S. would probably need to implement the draft to invade and occupy Pakistan, which led to the discussion in the OP. These kids aren't anti-American, but their discussion revolved around the fairly natural problems that any first-generation citizens would experience if their adopted nation went to war with a nation that they culturally identified with. They put it into the context of Vietnam because that was the last time the draft was used.

[FarCenter]

30. During WW II, the Soviets placed machine gun battalions behind the front line divisions

This made sure that no one retreated.

[Crabby Appleton]

29. David Harris, husband of Joan Baez, was convicted

and spent 15 months in federal prison

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Harris_%28protester%29

There were about 9,000 convictions for draft evasion during the Vietnam War. It was possible to get a conscientious objector status, but difficult to get it. A friend of mine who had gotten advise from a draft resistance organization told them he was gay during the physical, he was questioned briefly about his sexual experiences in that regard and got a draft exemption - guess that won't work anymore.

[deaniac21]

31. And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean,Iwanna, I

wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood andgore and
guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill,Kill,
KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL,KILL," and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping upand down
yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medalon me,
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

[sinkingfeeling]

32. Disagreeing with the war was not a valid excuse for not serving. If drafted, you reported and were

inducted unless you failed the physical.

[classysassy]

34. Bring back the draft

let all of our citizens defend their country not just the poor and disadvantaged.

[Tikki]

35. Mr. Tikki was drafted....

We thought about options as soon as the draft notice arrived...early 1968. We were already married, about 10 months, and
we decided that the Mr. would go to the Army under draft.
Now this may sound cold...but this is the truth of wartime. We knew for sure Mr. Tikki would never do combat time because
he was drafted with a known physical defect that would put him under a "medical profile". This meant he was drafted (as one
of McNamara's 100,000 with real limitations) and this would put him behind a desk so another soldier could be free to go fight.
Believe me 710 days goes real fast when you are motivated to get the most out of your time i e..GI Bill, Veterans home loans,
Veterans benefits....while under servitude.

We have never lost sight and respect for the brave enlisted and draftees that fought and those who were damaged or
lost their lives during the war or after from effects of the war environment.
We respected those who protested and said 'no' to the War, also.
Without the constant attention on what was going on during the War...it could have gone on...forever.
Tikki

[county worker]

36. I was drafted and I think that if you applied for conscientious objector status there was an

investigation in to your past. You had to have a history of that ideal or you were drafted.


Check this out
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/130006p.pdf

[SomethingFishy]

37. You said this:

"I disagree with the actions of the United States in fighting this war, and want North Vietnam to win. I want the United States to be defeated, I am actively working to end this war, and do not believe that I can offer this government any useful military services."

Well back then I'm not sure what they would have done. However today it's apparently completely legal to send an unmanned drone to kill someone who speaks those words or words to that effect. ;)

[tomg]

38. They would still have sent you into

The army. First, under the Gillette decision of 1969-1970, conscientious objectors are unable to object to some wars. it is all wars under all circumstances or nothing. It is concerned not with a political stance so much asva moral one. Second, once your local board was donewith you, you were the military's problem. In fact, there was, if I recall correctly, no institutional connection between the us military and the selective service system. I was an odd case that fell under both. I was in the military and released as a co, but then my local board ( let's hear it for theidiots at 20 banta place, Hackensack, nj) re- drafted me and refused to accept the findings of the military court that released me. The two groups played ping pong with me for almost a year.

Now, once you were in, there is a possibility that you might have been declared utterly unfit for military service ( 1 H, I believe). Sorry, some of this is a bit foggy. I was later a draft counselor.

[DFW]

39. It was a choice I never had to make, thank goodness

I turned 18 in 1970, was already in college by the time the lottery came around.

My lottery number was 59, so I would have been drafted when I graduated (class of 74) but the draft
ended in 1973.

I probably would have done what an older friend of mine did: when he was about to get drafted,
he volunteered for the Air Force and told them he spoke German and Russian (as did I). He got
sent to spy school in Syracuse, NY, and was then stationed for the duration of his service in
what was then West Berlin, spying on the Soviet Air Force. He said that the Soviet Air Force
was so incompetent and poorly equipped that our biggest military secret was that a fleet of
East German paper airplanes would have constituted a bigger threat to NATO than the Soviet Air
Force ever did.

[Drew Richards]

41. Well boy..if that's how you feel. you are definantly 11B infantry go to the front line bitch..NEXT!

If you didn't have a truly debilitating condition 4f they didn't give a F986. Off you go or welcome to Leavenworth..not really, they would toss you in any fed pen...