Violence begets violence.

[kentuck]

I truly believe that.

That is why I am not celebrating the death of Moammar Khadafy. I feel for those folks that are yet to die from these seeds of violence. Many will be young and innocent.

Perhaps I am the only one that believes this way? But I would have preferred justice in a different way, in a world court of opinion. A bullet in the head by an unknown "rebel" fighter is nothing more than murder. It is nothing to celebrate when we think of the deaths to come...

When we act like uncivilized animals, we will become those animals.

[Goldstein1984]

1. Due process doesn't mean much these days

Note the recent U.S.-ordered assassination of a U.S. citizen by executive order signed by a Nobel Peace Prize laureate. I guess that award doesn't mean what it used to, either.

[arbusto_baboso]

62. Precisely. I couldn't care less about Gaddafi,

It's the total disregard for the rule of law showed by the rebels that disturbs me.

What it means is that things really won't be much better for Libyans with him gone from power.

[NeedleCast]

2. I am not celebrating his death, but neither am I sympathtic towards him

He's dead. Hopefully Libya will see better days ahead.

[malaise]

3. You are so right

Thanks for your post.

[Warpy]

4. It was also inevitable

Please try to understand the nuance of despising summary execution in general while understanding the rage at one man by an entire country he waged a mercenary war against.

No, I don't like the fact that someone put a bullet into his brain. It was too quick, for one thing. He should have faced painful recovery from wounds and the humiliation of a show trial. However, I didn't lose everything because one old man's pride prevented him from ceding power when it was clearly over. I can understand that level of rage while not sharing it.

Besides, can you say you are sorry there is one less dictator murdering his people?

[BrendaBrick]

10. well said and extremely insightful.

[pinboy3niner]

5. What we can celebrate is the end of war in Libya

There has been far too much suffering and bloodshed on all sides, and the healing will take decades.

At least the war is over, which is something we can all celebrate.

[joshcryer]

42. I completely agree. We should never celebrate death of people. But end of war is always worth...

...celebrating.

[Exilednight]

54. The war is not over. The Libyan countryside is much like that of Iraq. Very tribal and very

feudal. Basically, you will see another post "mission accomplished" play out in Libya, much in the same way we saw it play out in Iraq. Tribes will fight and posture for control and sectarian violence shall ensue.

[sad sally]

6. You're not alone in your belief.

You reap what you sow; life is like a boomerang. Our thoughts, deeds and words return to us sooner or later, with astounding accuracy.

[Taverner]

7. Yep. Pretty much.

Although it has never been concluded that it's causation and not just correlation, violent crimes ALWAYS go up when we are at war

[gratuitous]

8. No you're not alone

But you are in a depressingly small minority, even amongst allegedly liberal folks who are supposed to have some principles, not trim their ideals to fit the current situation.

I don't have to wonder what the response from the U.S. will be should the outcome of the situation in Libya be another strong man dictator, possibly even more ruthless than Qaddafi. Depending on that dictator's inclination to allow us to plunder Libya's oil wealth, he'll be the second coming of Jesus or Satan.

[Major Hogwash]

9. Mitch McConnell is a racist piece of goo that is the Senate minority leader blocking creating jobs

I guess I have to be the adult in the room and talk about how bad McConnell is.

[KoKo]

16. Mitch McConnell is not the perpetrator of this. LOOK AROUND...IT'S ALL OF US!

This is a farce to blame it on Repugs... We are all in it together.

[Major Hogwash]

48. Mitch McConnell is a complete azzhole!! He's blocking creating jobs in the Senate!!

So, that is all there it to it.

[Bake]

11. The world is a better place without Qaddafi.

Sic semper tyrannis.

Bake

[sabrina 1]

14. The world would be better place without millions of people.

Should we slaughter them all the way he was slaughtered, or should we bring them to justice? Better yet, what business is it of ours what happens in other countries? Why are we there, and why did we support him if he was so bad? We need answers to these questions.

Why are we currently supporting even worse dictators than Gadaffi? How do you feel about our current support for the Saudis? Or Karamov of Uzbekistan? You know, the guy who boils people in oil if they dare to raise a voice against him? Should we support his slaughter, or should we continue to enable it since as the Wikileaks cables stated 'he lets us build military bases in his country'?

Who ARE we, really? Do the Geneva Conventions mean nothing to us anymore? The Constitution? Are they just as Bush called them 'quaint documents'? Let's decide, because we cannot keep pretending to be civilized anymore. The world doesn't believe it. Better to drop the facade rather than continue the current tortuous excuses for our support of brutality as a solution to everything while attempting, laughably, to pretend we are moral in any way.

[Bake]

19. Ummm ... we didn't do it to Qaddafi ...

HIS PEOPLE DID. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the Libyans.

Bake

[sabrina 1]

24. We did it. Stop the denials.

We and our brutal, warmongering Allies in Europe.

And now we will recognize the brutal thugs who have killed untold numbers of Libyans over the past months, raped and murdered Black Africans because they are racist, brutal thugs.

Last week Human Rights Organizations issued appeals to stop them from murdering POWs, knifing them in the back eg, after capture. To allow the women and children to get out of the war zone, Hillary Clinton was supporting just two days ago when she CALLED FOR THE HIT on Gadaffi.

Rape, murder, torture, theft, bigotry according to every human rights organization in the world. That's is who we are now allied with. So long of course, as they allow us to steal Libya's resources.

Meet your new Allies! Worse than the old!

[sabrina 1]

52. Um, yes we did, along with our allies.

And if the reports of the US drone strike and the French air-strike are true, we are even more directly responsible for his death than Bush was for Saddam's death. No one is fooled by this nonsense anymore. We may 'let' others do the actual dirty work to pretend it was 'his people' but look around the world at the reaction to this, no one believes it because they know far more about these countries, than Americans do.

HIS PEOPLE, have been fighting FOR him for the past year. If 'his people' were against him, as the people of Egypt were against Mubarak, or the people of Tunisia were against Ben Ali, the people of Libya would not have needed NATO, nor would the 'rebels' have needed to be armed. See the difference when it really is the people who want regime change?

This war is going to continue, because 'his people' did not kill him, and they will be looking for revenge against those who did. The people who killed him have been his enemies for 40 years and they were used by the West to do what they never could have done without the support of the majority of the Libyan people, to do what the Western Imperialists wanted. And now, brutal though they are, the West will install them in power and get what they want from them. If they don't, then the West will demolish them also. That's what we do.

[occupyeverywhere]

17. "Thus Always to Dinosaurs"?

[Bake]

21. That would be "sic semper tyrannosaurus, " I think ...

:rofl:

Bake

[KoKo]

18. Bake...You Need a little of "Heal the World"...and the Lyrics...Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt3NKilGqeE

[Bake]

22. Thanks for the reminder.

Fact is, though, Mo was a brutal dictator and he got what he deserved from his own people. I neither celebrate nor mourn it. I observe it.

Other dictators might do well to take note, however.

Bake

[sabrina 1]

26. Which of our current allied dictators should take note?

We support so many of them. Which is why they stay in power. Over the past several decades the US has supported over 50 brutal dictatorships and contributed to the killing of millions of their people.

And he was not killed by his own people. Please learn about these countries if you're going to support this kind of brutality. His people fought for him and will continue to do so, for the past year. Even the powerful NATO could not defeat them. Those who did the deed, ordered by the West, were traditional enemies of Gadaffi. Many of them, up to now supposedly OUR enemies also. Now of course they are our allies. We always have to put an 'indigenous' face on our invasions.

Clinton issued the order a few days ago. Even those people hesitated to kill him knowing what will now occur, without assurances from the West that they would be there to fight the upcoming civil war in Libya for them. Clinton arrived in Libya to reassure them. And two days later they killed him.

More innocent people have died and will continue to die, as a result of the latest Western Imperialist intervention in an African nation. If you're going to cheer this on, then at least know what you are cheering for.

[Bake]

31. I'm not sure the Sec of State has the authority to issue such an order.

If indeed there was such an "order" given.

Bake

[sabrina 1]

49. No, she does not. She has the authority to let people know

what she wants. Which is what she did. And she speaks for the president.

[Bake]

37. It depends on how you define "his people."

If "his people" refers only to his tribe, then no, he wasn't killed by "his people." If it refers to ALL LIBYANS (since he was dictator over all Libyans), then yes, it was his people who did it.

And of course you are correct that we have propped up, and continue to prop up, brutal dictatorships. I neither deny nor defend that. It's a dirty world. But now it's a **bit** less dirty with Qaddafi gone.

Bake

[sabrina 1]

50. Many tribes supported him. Not just his tribe, sorry but you have

wrong information about Libya, which is understandable as we get very little actual information about the rest of world here in the US. The only part of the country which did not support him was in the area of Benghazi where he had enemies for 40 years. But that was by no means a majority of the people. Regardless, none of this was ever our business. Just as Iraq was not our business.

This war will continue, even those who would like to think this will end it, are admitting that. Because he was not opposed by a majority of Libyans and because Libyans did not want, and said although who listens to the people, that they did not want interference in their country, 'we do not want Iraq here'. Well, now that's what they got. Imperial Western powers will install a government for them as they did in Iraq. And their resources will no longer be theirs.

As for replacing him with something 'less dirty'? Please read the Human Rights orgs reports on the 'less dirty' new leaders of Iraq. I pity the people there. From the beginning Human Rights Orgs were reporting the brutality towards innoncent by the so-called 'rebels' but the West was too busy cheering on its latest PNAC war, to care. Since then, many unfortunate innocents, women especially have to fear rape, murder and imprisonment, simply for being Black Africans. Sad, sad to see this country continuing what we though we were ending when supported this administration.

[Bake]

59. So Q's death isn't a good thing?

Whatever. The fucker ordered the bombing of PanAm over Lockerbie.

I'm glad he's dead. I dance on his fucking grave. In fact, I PISS on his grave. Fucker.

Bake

[sabrina 1]

61. The UN calling for an investigation into the death of Gadaffi

which may well have been a war crime. I do not support war crimes no matter who the victim is.

Now there are demonstrations all over the ME again, condemning what certainly looks like a war crime from the video. See the Geneva Conventions regarding the treatment of POWS. Glad to see the world still does respect the Rule of Law. Shameful to see people supporting brutality such as was depicted in that horrific video, while claiming to condemn brutality.

Meet our new allies. They can be seen in what is now being called a possible war crime. So, we ousted one brutal dictator to replace him with an even worse regime who are currently accused of murdering POWs and Black Africans, while thousands of civilians have been killed according to Human Rights orgs who are having a difficult time trying to identify all the victims.

Anyone who actually does not support brutal regimes, cannot support these so-called 'rebels'.

[KoKo]

28. Bake...there you are up there with post that Ghadaffi is Hitler Equivalent... BAD

You've gotta understand that there are those of us who are intelligent enough, and old enough to be close enough to WWII that we will fight back against your ...well...very evil if not misguided comparison to Ghadaffi with Hitler.

Why is it that I believe you might have been here on DU under another name comparing Saddam with Hitler?

Why is it that I believe that you might call ANYONE HITLER that you disagree with.

Surely you are better than this kind of Screed that's Soooooooooo....transparent.

Ugh.

[Bake]

30. Nice post, Hit .... oops.

No, in my other thread I DID NOT compare Q to H. I just raised the ethical question for discussion. This is a discussion forum. If you don't want to discuss, don't.

I've been a DUer since the beginning of this thing. I've only had one other screen name: dbaker41. I changed it to Bake during the one-time name-change amnesty, becuase that's what everybody calls me anyway.

If you are "calling me out," and falsely suggesting that I have used a sock puppet, all I can say is (a) that's against the DU rules as you should well know, (b) you're at best disingenuous and at worst lying, and (c) report me to the mods.

Bake

[KoKo]

34. Too Defensive...

I figured you were "dbaker41" and I've been here as long as you but only dropped the "01" from KoKo...so you sure as hell know who you're talking too.

Comparing Ghadaffi with Hitler you know is not correct and yet you did it here in this post. You've been here on DU long enough to know what a false comparison that is and how offensive it could be to the Jews who suffered under Hitler to compare Ghadaffi to the Jewish Holocaust.

What were you thinking to put out such a terrible screed. :shrug:

[Bake]

36. A terrible screed would have been for me to explicitly compare the two

And then use that as justification to dance on Q's grave.

I did neither, and all your hand-wringing doesn't make it so.

Bake

[KoKo]

38. Folks who read your post can infer what they want to...But, you were clear in insinuation...

so..I stand by my post.

:hi: dbake.......for old time sake even though I thought your post was disgusting... I do love to see when the older DU'ers congregate for each new Election. It's truly gratifying.

[Bake]

43. Disgusting?? Don't you think that's a bit strong?

You can certainly disagree, but DISGUSTING? Geez, you'd think I said I was going to sit out the 2012 election or something ...

:hi:

Bake

[KoKo]

44. No, if anything it was a "light rebuke"

More like :puke: in MHO...but, as I said I love "legacy DU'ers" and to see them congregate for every new Dem Election is very gratifying.

:hi: and :hug: I hope life has been okay for you in the missing times since you were here last.

[whatchamacallit]

12. The Lizard Brain trumps reason n/t

[sabrina 1]

13. No, you are not the only one. I think, although it would be hard

to tell today, that you are in the majority. Extremes on both sides always cheer for violence when they view it as their team's victory. But even during the Brutal Iraq War, many Republicans I know were horrified by the violence inflicted by the Criminals in the Bush Administration.

[KoKo]

15. Get with it, Kentuck! You know as well as I do that Violence is what our culture is today.

Everytime you go to your grocery store, bar for a night out with sports fans, or State Fair or Concert or even to shop for underwear in the Local Mall...the Violence will be with us.

An "eye for an eye and the world goes blind."

Our World is BLIND to VIOLENCE!

Expect it in your neighborhood, mall, local gathering, sports participation, local schools, down the road, next door neighbor....EVERYWHERE AND ANYWHERE...an "EYE FOR AN EYE FOR GRIEVANCES" (whether real or imaginary) will be extracted.

It's the "New Normal!"

Of course you know this, Kentuck..elsewise you wouldn't be posting this to remind us.

[fascisthunter]

20. shhhh... you'll piss off...

meat heads. It's just simpleton shit. It's the way many have been conditioned.

[Bake]

23. You are right, kentuck. Violence DOES beget violence.

And THAT is why Qaddafi got it in return from his own people.

Bake

[fascisthunter]

25. it's ok... you did what you had to do

[KoKo]

41. What a Scamp....it's amazing! n/t

[Desertrose]

27. "An eye for an eye and the whole world would be blind." Gibran

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lucinda]

32. Well there could be no court trial for him, or bin Laden

too many uncomfortable facts might come to light. That trumps justice these days. Gotta protect all those political fannys. Sad, sad times.

[KoKo]

46. definitely...gotta be sure that the "secrets" stay hidden longer.

but that "bag 'o secrets" is getting to be a very heavy load these days. Won't be much longer til it rips.

[Lucinda]

47. Yup. Great way to describe it too.

:)

[mdmc]

33. r

[BOG PERSON]

35. "Peoples do not judge in the same way as courts of law...

they do not hand down sentences, they throw thunderbolts; they do not condemn kings, they drop them back into the void; and this justice is worth just as much as that of the courts." - M. Robespierre

[LanternWaste]

58. Odd that you quote a tyrant in rationalizing the end of tyranny.

Odd that you quote a tyrant in rationalizing the end of tyranny.

[Ilsa]

39. Or, maybe he died violently because he caused the violent deaths of so many others.

Maybe the violence he begat was brought back to him.

[louslobbs]

40. K&R I agree with you kentuck. n/t

Lou

[aikoaiko]

45. Not always.

[lynne]

51. Who is the "we" that you're talking about?

- The Libyans controlled the shots (no pun intended) on the capture and subsequent assassination of Gaddafi. You make a huge assumption that Libyan law, society, and culture is the same as ours. Its not.

I trust you've seen the video's of Gadaffi's capture. To compare American law, society, ethics and culture to those of the Libyan rebels on the tape is ludicrous.

[JCMach1]

53. I am not sure the Libyan people would agree on your point... (graphic image warning)

What good would a trial have done in this case? He was guilty in the same kind of way as this guy

or even this guy



Who said justice was ever pretty, or clean...

What happened seems a natural reaction considering the circumstances...

Also, the Libyan National Council was claiming that he was caught in crossfire... (true or not, I don't know)

[LWolf]

55. You aren't the only one. nt

[LanternWaste]

56. For myself, I simply cannot justify or rationalize violence.

For myself, I simply cannot justify or rationalize violence.

What would I do if put into any one of a thousand different hypothetical scenarios usually placed before me after uttering that statement? I have zero knowledge of my what reaction would be-- I'm neither prescient enough nor dogmatic enough to state with absolute conviction-- others may pretend to be, though.

I'd like to think I would find other options than the black and white choices we're dramatically presented with; options that are always available-- regardless of whether we have the depth of wisdom to see the additional avenues for what they are or not.

I neither wept not nor danced when Sadam was killed. Ditto for Ghaddafi. Yet I can't help but think that a species which is currently uncovering the source of its very existence, a species which flew a man to the moon, a species which gave us the works of Shakespeare and Hugo, cannot find any option other that death to solve problems.




"True philosophy must start from the most immediate and comprehensive fact of consciousness, and this may be formulated as follows: 'I am life which wills to live, and I exist in the midst of life which wills to live'." In nature one form of life must always prey upon another. However, human consciousness holds an awareness of, and sympathy for, the will of other beings to live. An ethical human strives to escape from this contradiction so far as possible." Albert Schweitzer

[randome]

57. Sorry, you're wrong.

The human Universe does not fit into easily worded phrases. We live a much more dynamic and complicated existence. Violence does NOT always beget violence.

Odds are that someone did something violent to YOU in your past. Are you violent now?

[Tatiana]

60. You're dead on, kentuck. Mark my words, they will be coming after us.

We might as well call this the "Terrorism Era." We will be at perpetual war. Many people in that region have long memories.

When the quality of life goes down for the people, as in Iraq, the citizens will become angry at the U.S. and Western world in general for their misery.

They will seek retribution and they will likely have access to all the oil money they need to fund their retaliation.