To those expressing outrage/ sorrow at the manner of Gadaffi's killing today, a question:

[geek tragedy]

Where were your expressions of outrage when he ordered his troops to massacre demonstrators during the Arab Spring?

[Lint Head]

1. K&R!

[MADem]

2. I'm sure the people who lost loved ones at the Berlin disco or on Flight 103 aren't losing sleep,

either.

It was a rather barbaric end, but it was quick.

[DCBob]

3. a fitting barbaric end to a barbaric leader.

may he not rest in peace.

[leftstreet]

4. Prove that members here didn't experience the same sense of outrage

:shrug:

[geek tragedy]

6. Some people did.

But I can guarantee you that many of those expressing outrage over this or shedding crocodile tears over the people of Sirte (as if that was all the NTC's fault anyways) had boo to say when Team Gaddafi was dishing it out.

Some were even supporting his right to do it. Made me sick.

[joshcryer]

15. They actually turned coat.

The http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=451467&mesg_id=452678">shift was http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=734814&mesg_id=739263">so severe that it was pretty much obvious to anyone who actually supported the self-determination of the Libyan people.

[Rowdyboy]

5. Has there really been that much "outrage"? I honestly haven't seen it

but DU has many many threads.

[mmonk]

26. Doubt it. It goes that anyone who questions policy is for tyrants as a talking point.

[DCBob]

7. I think most of them are the same ones who were insisting our involvement in Libya..

would be a total disaster like Vietnam. Proven wrong they came up with another excuse to criticize the effort.

[Selatius]

8. I would like to have seen him put on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

I'm sure there are quite a lot of people who did business and supported that particular dictator without the outside world knowing, and a war crimes trial at the Hague would've likely revealed who sold him those tanks and guns and artillery pieces he was using to kill civilians. Further, it would reveal what role, if any, Col. Gaddhafi had in the US program of extraordinary rendition.

While I will not be losing sleep over the dictator's death, I do generally think everybody is at least afforded a fair trial for their crimes. It's the mark of a civilized society.

[Danse]

9. Outrage

Comparing Libya to Egypt is absurd. The occupation in Egypt was a non-violent organic affair enjoying the support of the vast majority.

The "demonstrators" in Libya were led by a CIA agent named Khalifa Hifter, who “had recently returned from exile in America to lend the rebel ground forces some tactical coherence.” (Daily Mail)

"Hifter actually lived in Vienna, Virginia, about five miles from CIA headquarters in Langley, for two decades." (WSWS)

The article cites witnesses to the rebellion who report that “its leader is Col. Khalifa Haftar, of a contra-style group based in the United States called the Libyan National Army.”

The phrase "Contra-Style" should not be lost on students of the Cold War. This was not a "non-violent people powered revolution" but a violent insurgency funded, trained and armed by a foreign power, namely the United States.

They attacked government buildings, and the Libyan government responded as virtually any government would, with violence. Reports of "Gadaffi bombing his own people" and "planning a genocide" were entirely bogus.

When Gadaffi took power, Libya was the fourth poorest country in the world; when he was murdered it had the highest standing of living in Africa. Like Castro, Gadaffi was a quasi-socialist who provided his citizens with free education and health care. Libya had a lower incarceration rate than many Northern European nations. The literacy rate was far higher than America itself. American leaders, whose prison system was described in a BBC documentary as "Torture Inc.", whose system of "democracy" is completely farcical, and who are committing genocide both via war and massive institutional violence, are not in any position to be dictating the affairs of other nations, let alone declaring their leaders tyrants.

Personally I found the murder of Gadaffi barbaric, and the response by many liberals grotesque, but I'm far less concerned with a dead tin-pot dictator than the fate of Libyans. The "freedom fighters" aka "protesters" have reportedly been engaging in the ethnic cleansing of blacks, amongst other atrocities. Many are Islamist, meaning that Gadaffi's socialist policies will likely be reduced if not eliminated. The rights of women will probably be curtailed. Standards of living will plummet with the introduction of neo-liberal reforms.

Much as the hanging of Saddam Hussein did not end the violence in Iraq, it is unlikely that the Green resistance in Libya will suddenly disappear. More violence is inevitable.

What is so frightening about this affair is not the killing of Gadaffi but the embrace of militarism by the "left" and the ease with which the psywarriors were able to fool so many people about their actual intentions in the region. Suffice it to say that humanitarianism is not high on their agenda. Oil, water, currency, geostrategy and the other usual motivations are probably of a tad more concern.

[Luminous Animal]

12. +1

Not only has the left accepted militarism, but assassination, as well.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

19. The Republican Party couldn't have spun it better than you just did.

[inna]

23. bravo! great post (but way over the head for this thread, i've gotta warn...)

almost welcomed you to DU... before I realized you just have been an infrequent poster!

anyway, :hi:

[mainer]

29. Thank you. You summarized what many don't want to hear.

I'm probably one of the few here on DU who's visited Libya (for science reasons) and had the chance to interact with local university students. I was surprised by how easily and naturally female and male students interacted, how the women felt no need to cover the faces (although everyone wears head-scarves) and how the education of women was encouraged. Some members of our travel party stopped in spontaneously at a local clinic and found men and women employees working together, without the weirdness of so many other Islamic countries.

I hope women's rights don't take a step backward under the new government.

[Javaman]

30. +1 nt

[Divernan]

31. Far too erudite & fact filled a response for the blood-thirsty crowd crediting Obama

[joshcryer]

16. So would I. I never expected it, though.

It's like expecting the Bolshevik's to have spared Nicholas II.

[myrna minx]

24. I agree with you. n/t

[JCMach1]

10. sic semper tyrannis

[Luminous Animal]

11. That's what John Wilkes Booth said when he shot Lincoln.

[JCMach1]

13. I also love this quote from LOTR

Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life... Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

-Gandalf the Grey

[whatchamacallit]

14. Ths dense among us need to find a way to understand

It's not about Gaddafi or any despot, it's about preserving due process so our lying government can't fuck *us*!

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadine_mn]

17. Why is so hard to believe that ANY loss of life can be hard for some to take

Everytime some universally hated person - like Osama or Saddam - has been killed, there seem to be 2 groups - those who cheer the demise of the hated person, and a few that refuse to cheer and are upset about how the person died. Then a bunch of people will start criticizing the latter group accusing them of being sympathizers to the hated person and condoning what they did.

Being sad that someone - ANYONE - died in a horrific way (gunned down, assasinated by an angry mob) doesn't mean you have sympathy for the person who died or approved or their actions or didn't have outrage at the deaths they caused.

This is such a hard concept for some to understand and here is yet another thread to what.. try to make people who aren't dancing on graves feel like shit?

I will be honest - I am glad Gadaffi is no longer around to hurt and murder the people of Libya. BUT I AM NOT GLAD AT THE MANNER OF HIS DEATH. I just can't be. Any trial he would have had would have been an insult to the people he brutalized and murdered - the fact that before he died he said "what have I ever done to you" shows that even when facing death (and he knew he was going to die) he still could not wrap his mind around the fact that HE brought this on himself. Any trial would have had him espousing the same shit. I get that, and I get that he brutalized and killed so many and brought so much pain and destruction to the people of Libya. And I am not judging those who killed him even though it may sound like it. But it does sadden me - that they experienced so much horror and pain due to this man's actions that it stripped them of mercy - because mercy was never shown to them.

I can probably imagine a scenario where I would have so much pain and anger directed at someone that I could kill them. But under no circumstances could I see myself posing next to the dead body with a cell phone taking pictures of myself.

This is the loss of humanity that saddens me - whatever shithole someone turns out to be, it is still a life. There is a difference between respecting the life someone lead vs respecting life itself.

[Doc_Technical]

21. Well put, nadine_mnell !

n/t

[Prometheus Bound]

18. Can you point to one example of outrage or sorrow? I missed it.

I saw some disagreement and criticism, but so far no outrage or sorrow.

[JI7]

20. 2 rongs don't make a right

[LWolf]

25. I haven't expressed any outrage or sorrow.

Since you brought it up, though, I'll just say that I agree with Gandhi. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Violence is not a solution to violence.

[TBF]

27. Disagree with your characterization of outrage/sorrow -

but do some of us question why the US would incite uprisings in certain countries that have resources we desire? Yes, we question why this continues to happen, and we disagree with this behavior.

[newfie11]

28. I don't care how he was killed. He deserved to be dead!!! n/t