On the death of al-Awlaki

[nadinbrzezinski]

Ok dad...not nice but there are reams upon reams upon reams of evidence that he was working against the us. There s no disputing that and the targeting has precedent, while not successful. During WW II Tokyo Rose was targeted during the massive bombings of Tokyo. We never got her and after the war she was tried and convicted. There was plenty of evidence against her in radio transmissions to the troops. Here there are reams of video, and a convincing case can be made that he was somewhat successful.

Where we enter a non precedent legal quagmire is the targetting of the son. If the kid was in the same vehicle with dad...well the collateral damage comes in, like the tens of thousands of Japanese. (Tokyo Rose was the best known precedent but they are others, usually falling under the spy threshold, going all the way to the civil war). The son though was not in the same vehicle. He was not gotten in the same day either. But he was hanging out with AQ we are told. Strangely the government is webby, webby quiet. If this was the case...see line about collateral damage.

In the best of cases (legally) that's what happened, but the silence says there might be legal jeopardy. Translation...he was NOT hanging with AQ, opening the window...for yes a wrongful death lawsuit. Oh and just because you are related to a pretty bad person does not mean we can execute you.

Now his dad...there is real precedent...but this...there is not...and their silence speaks volumes.

[Tx4obama]

1. Regarding the son

Just because the State Department and/or the White House has not yet commented on the son's death does NOT mean there might be legal jeopardy.

There is absolutely NO evidence that the son was 'targeted'.
The only place that I've seen that being said is on DU.

Please explain for me - how the son was 'not' WITH the TERRORISTS and MILITANTS on the night that the drone struck and killed the TERRORISTS and MILITANTS. There were 9 killed (some of the terrorists have been named) and several others that were injured.

Btw, the son has lived in Yemen since 2002, that would be since he was 5 (?) years old - he wasn't just there on vacation.

As far as what his family in The USA has said, there is no way they would know what happened in Yemem due to the fact they were not there.

War is messy and sometimes innocent people get killed when they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, but that does not mean that we should give up trying to STOP the known Al Qaeda terrorists and militants from killing us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. That is why a lawsuit is in the works

Indeed.

Oh and I will edit to add... It's easy to speak of collateral damage from the comfort of your couch. Some of us have actually dealt with this messiness in person.

Here s a reality you are not aware off...these tactics are most likely creating further blowback. Yes, it is the culture. Oh and good luck defeating a tactic...that is what we are fighting.

Draining the swams ain't gonna happen this way. Oh and this will churn your tummy I am positive but this war will end Te same way they always do...around a table.

[Tx4obama]

3. A little bit more info

The location of where the son died (found in different article) was Shabwa

----

SANAA, Yemen – American drone strikes in southern Yemen have killed nine Al Qaeda-linked militants, including the media chief for the group's Yemeni branch ...

SNIP

The tribal elders, who spoke Saturday on condition of anonymity because they feared reprisals, said four other members of the al-Awlaki clan and another local militant were also killed in the same drone attack. There was no immediate confirmation of the younger al-Awlaki's death from Yemeni authorities.

Security officials said the drone strike was one of five carried out overnight by American drones on suspected Al Qaeda positions in Shabwa and the neighboring province of Abyan in Yemen's largely lawless south. They said two more militants were killed and 12 wounded in other strikes in the two provinces.

The first strike late Friday targeted a house in the Azan district of Shabwa, but hit just after Al Qaeda militants had a meeting in the building, security officials and tribal elders said.

They said a second strike then targeted two sport utility vehicles in which al-Bana and the six others were traveling, destroying the vehicles and leaving the men's bodies charred. It was not clear whether other participants in the meeting were targeted in separate strikes.


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/10/15/yemen-says-local-al-qaeda-media-chief-six-others-killed/

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. As I said this will probably end in court

And on a meta level long term we are not doing ourselves any favors.

Not tat many will get it here...that Arab spring is doing far more, so far, against AQ than these strikes. Potentially the end of AQ lies not in bombs but in jobs. Alas that is quite a bit f the anger currently. For example Yemen gets a few jobs going the recruit pool will go down. Alas this was suggested early on, with police activity...there is no money in schools and factories. That s way too meta.

This will end up in court. I guess those lawyers trying to iron out the constitutional issues are working fr AQ though...

[Tx4obama]

6. And of course I have no proof, but in my opinion ....

considering

" ... He has been a resident of the city of Sana'a since he returned from America with his family in 2002."


I'd put my money on that his dad indoctrinated him into his ideology and was grooming him for a position in Al Qaeda.
There have been children as young as six years old that have been trained by members of Al Qaeda.


Edited to add

We are not talking about a kid that grew up in America here,
he was the son of one of the Most Wanted members of Al Qaeda.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Yup, and we also used child soldiers in the past

And child soldiers are used today in Africa, and we're used in CA...like oh the Contras we funded. I recal there are ways around this... But it is more profitable to use brute force always.

[MADem]

11. You can get married at age 15 in Yemen--younger if you're female. NT

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. And...your point?

[MADem]

14. Pull the string. You can work it out. NT

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Sure I can... We are talking of child soldiers

Under global norms. I guess this o's hard to understand.

I mean for Pete's sake people did legally marry at fourteen in ancient times.

[MADem]

18. That kid is Yemeni. He's lived there since he was five. His father

turned his back on the US, and raised that kid to hate the place of his birth.

That said, I do not believe (and the operative word here is "believe"--because I do not claim to have special knowledge of what took place) that the US targeted this kid.

There's no benefit to so doing.

I think they targeted the Egyptian dude, who was probably a Dutch uncle to the kid. Damn the bad luck for the kid, I suppose.

In Yemen, progressive paradise that it is (not), girls (who cannot say NO) as young as nine are given into marriage. They don't have options, either--unless they want to get offed by their father for disgracing the family.

There is zero equivalency between there and here. I have to laugh at some of this "learner's permit/first date" crap--it's a different world. It's tribal, and you are either in, or you're out, to quote Heidi. The bleeding heart people who hold this view that the kid is Wally Cleaver, were they dropped into that world with their happy-glad attitudes, would be immediately called out as spies, executed, and left as food for the wild dogs. And life would go on, and no one would say squat about it.

It's just not a friendly situation where this kid lived. There's no Primrose Lane in his neighborhood.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. So us citizenship by birth counts for nothing legally

Who knew? No more anchor babies....woowhoo!

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. By the way I am not a member of DC is mordor club

But I take that obligation as a citizen to question my government seriously.

If there is a possibility of misconduct it has to be investigated. I am not a member of the USA! Club and it does not matter who is in office. In fact it is far more patriotic to ask questions, just my opinion, and that of a few other people who have questioned in times of war. It is actually one way to reduce some of the horrors.

[Poll_Blind]

17. Well, as Jameel Jaffer of the American Civil Liberties Union put it:

"If the government is going to be firing Predator missiles at American citizens, surely the American public has a right to know who’s being targeted, and why,"

Not an unreasonable question, IMO.

PB

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. And as I said in the op

If the kid was in the wrong place...there is precedent. If he was in anyway targeted. It should chill people.

[Poll_Blind]

21. One thing which doesn't wash in the case is the lack of investigation.

If it was an accident, why no investigation?

If it was on purpose, why no evidence?

It seems like the administration is punting, Israeli-style, and just pretending like they don't have to answer either question at all.

PB

[Tx4obama]

23. Who said there is no investigation? Just because you don't know all the facts ...

doesn't mean that the people in the White House, Pentagon, and State Department don't know.
There are many investigations that have taken place and are taking place that no one without security clearance knows about.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. And there is quite possibly a legal case

I am willing to bet dime on dollar that if this happened during the bush years you'd demand to know what happened and if there was a targetting here...and I'd follow you in that parade. Difference is I happen to be consistent in my view that this has to be looked at...and damned glad lawyers are.

[whatchamacallit]

16. Since he was 5?

All the more reason to quit the "kid should have known better than to be in Yemen" bullshit!

[tblue]

4. Summary executions are now all the rage.

Good points you made about the son. I didn't know he was executed later than the dad. We are trading dangerous waters when we circumvent laws or conventions or morals. I'm not liking this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. It will end up in court

Those "hippies" at OWS are one way to fight this. Today o'er tree. Tomorrow....neuromancer and 1984 are starting to look like prophecy.

[MADem]

10. Who, precisely, is saying the son was "targeted?"

And what would the reason be for it?

The WP article states that the target was an Egyptian guy, an associate of the kid's father.

The father was "got" in the vehicle.

The Egyptian guy was "got" at a BBQ.

Totally different operations. Different days.

All I know, though, is what I read in the paper.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. And add complication of quite possibly legal case

And the operative word if, transitionals are so problematic 'round these parts it is craze. Enough to make my head spin.

[Tx4obama]

25. I don't think there was a BBQ - see bolded text on the link below

The drone attacks in Shabwa were on a Al Qaeda meeting building and on vehicles.

comment #3 here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2170158&mesg_id=2170215

[AngkorWot]

26. Good question. From what I've been led to believe here...

The U.S. said they targeted the Yemeni Al Qaeda leader.

The U.S. lies

Therefore the U.S. purposefully targeted an American teenager for no reason.

It all makes so much sense.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tx4obama]

27. regarding al-Awlaki: .... for the folks that just might not yet understand

Anwar al-Awlaki

SNIP

In "44 Ways to Support Jihad," another sermon posted on his blog in February 2009, al-Awlaki encouraged others to "fight jihad", and explained how to give money to the mujahideen or their families after they've died. Al-Awlaki's sermon also encouraged others to conduct weapons training, and raise children "on the love of Jihad." Also that month, he wrote: "I pray that Allah destroys America and all its allies." He wrote as well: "We will implement the rule of Allah on Earth by the tip of the sword, whether the masses like it or not." On July 14, he criticized armies of Muslim countries that assist the U.S. military, saying, "the blame should be placed on the soldier who is willing to follow orders ... who sells his religion for a few dollars."In a sermon on his blog on July 15, 2009, entitled "Fighting Against Government Armies in the Muslim World," al-Awlaki wrote, "Blessed are those who fight against American soldiers, and blessed are those shuhada (martyrs) who are killed by them."
http://www.aabout.biz/2011/09/anwar-al-awlaki.html
---

Did you catch that? " ... raise children "on the love of Jihad."

He and his SON can not be compared to a average American father and son.
al-Awlaki's son has lived in Yemen since 2002 - he was NOT raised like an American,
The son was raised 'on the love of Jihad'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Ah yes the child soldier

Which he probably was. Problem is we really should not go there



See these guys USED child soldiers and were financed by the CIA. I got to see in person some of their lovely handiwork by the way. Other allies of ours who used those child soldiers...el salvador and guatemala.

If I were you I'd try to find a morally defensible line and he was the enemy ain't it...I am damn glad there is a LEGAL investigation. I will repeat this, if this happened during the bush years I suspect you'd be leading THAT parade.

Oh and yes children playing soldier is a real problem. I am willing to bet we have a hot civil war you will see them crop up in de Moines as well...dime on whatever replaces the dollar. It is a reality of modern warfare. Also good luck fighting a tactic.