Cops

[H2O Man]

Years ago, in a nearby small village situated near a large highway, a new village police officer exhibited some rather curious behaviors. When he would pull over a vehicle for speeding at the edge of town, he would approach it with his gun drawn. While it would have been easy to dismiss this with a “Barney Fife” joke, area law enforcement recognized that it was serious, and had a tragic potential. Shortly after this officer was dismissed, most of the local law enforcement departments began having prospective employees screened at the mental health clinic where I was employed.

Around that same time, my younger son was on a “pee-wee” soccer team. The coach was a state police officer, who impressed me as the type of adult that worked exceptionally well with children. I served as the assistant coach. One afternoon, I noticed that this gentleman seemed on edge. I told him that he seemed a bit tense with the kids, and asked if everything was okay? It turned out that he had spent the past two days in a recovery effort. A vicious male had kidnapped two high school girls in Dryden, NY. He took them to an isolated cabin, raped and murdered them. He then put the bodies through a wood-chipper, and scattered the remains in a corn field. The coach told me that the police literally had to watch for crows to land, in order to find parts of the remains.

I tell these two stories, of course, as part of this forum's discussions about the police at the OWS and related protests. For sake of discussion, my comments here focus on male police officers. I'm using these two examples to illustrate two of the general personality-types that are drawn to police work: bullies and alpha-males. Let's take a closer look.

Bullies are attracted to police work for the most obvious of reasons – they want “power” that is backed up by a badge and a gun. They can be best seen as a sub-group within the larger “authoritarian personality” type. They get a perverse thrill from exercising an ability to “punish” people. Under pressure, they quickly resort to either bending the rules and regulations of their job, or outright breaking the laws they have sworn to uphold.

Their baseline mood is “uptight,” and escalates quickly to paranoid. They resent others who do not share their rigid belief systems. The combination of these two unattractive features results in their eagerness to injure people who are simply exercising their Amendment 1 rights to protest.

On the other hand, the alpha-males are drawn to police work for very different reasons. While they tend to enjoy the general structure of groups that include the police and military, it is because it allows them to exercise an internal sense of self-discipline. They work in law enforcement because they have a strong sense of right-versus-wrong, and want to serve their community by protecting the public.

A true alpha-male does not expect others to exercise that same high level of self-discipline they set for themselves. They do not resent people for taking part in legal activities, such as exercising their Constitutional right to protest. Under pressure, they try to act at their highest personal level. While they are not perfect – no humans are – they not not seek a parasexual thrill from assaulting defenseless victims.

There are certainly other personality-types within law enforcement. More, intelligent people can hold very different views of the ratio of bullies to alpha-males in law enforcement. Each of us here, for example, has opinions based upon our personal experiences – which can include from our family life to our own interaction with police. What I hope we can all agree upon is that unless those in the higher offices take action, the bullies with badges will have license to act upon their inner frustrations and rage, and injure the public protesters. And that holds a tragic potential.

[TBMASE]

1. My, that's a broad brush you have there

[H2O Man]

3. oh, deer

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TBMASE]

16. Is that because I find it ridiculous when someone subscribes to

the theory that everyone enters a profession with the same desires based on a personality type that the OP can't honestly establish with anything other than his own opinion?

[H2O Man]

17. Perhaps if you

had the ability to read the OP -- hint: see the first sentence of the last paragraph -- or find someone to explain it to you, you could avoid making such silly errors.

[TBMASE]

18. oh I read it

your brush is still mighty broad.
Anytime you make a generalization about why someone goes into a certain profession based on their personality, you're painting with a broad brush.

[lunatica]

22. Whatever

You're not impressing anyone here.

[TBMASE]

23. Good thing I wasn't trying to, huh?

[fascisthunter]

29. ha! You were trying your as hard as you could and failed

to do what you set out to do, and that is argue against the OP's position. You twisted what he said and made a fool out of yourself by doing so.

[H2O Man]

39. I assume that

our friend was ignorant of the fact that I was, among other things, trained by the NYS department of Mental Health, the Division of Criminal Justice Services, and the Bureau for Municipal Police, to conduct trainings for crises intervention for potential police officers. While I certainly expressed some opinions of my own in the OP, not a single one was without a solid foundation. Our friend, of course, based his comments on his foundation of ignorance.

[fascisthunter]

52. Always find your posts informative

I'm impressed... you really do have an interesting resume, sir! Do not mean to patronize, which brings me to this point. The internet is a awesome tool, because it helps people communicate with those we would not normally speak to. For that I am grateful.

[H2O Man]

54. Well, thank you!

I agree 100% with you about the internet being an awesome tool .... and in particular, I appreciate that this forum allows me the opportunity to converse with a wide rane of intelligent, thoughtful people who I would not otherwise have the chance to get to know. And that definitely includes you.

This is an interesting thread. The majority of folks responding understand what I'm saying in the OP. It's not an attack on police at all -- simply a description that highlights the distinctions between the worst and the best male police officers. (In fact, the same general typologies can be accurately applied to amateur and professional boxers, the single group of people I hold in the greatest respect.)

Two people disagree .... and not so much on the opinions I expressed, as with me expressing them. A few more "unrecommended" the OP. That's a good thing. I find it reassuring, evidence that I was right on target.

[Ignis]

25. So you don't think teaching attracts certainly personalities, for example?

:shrug:

No correlative data there at all? Really? :shrug:

[TBMASE]

32. you mean like sexual predators who prey on their students?

I'd hardly say that's indicitive of the people who are attracted to teaching kids but if I were to use a broad brush I'm sure I could denigrate people based on personal biases

[Ignis]

35. So the teaching profession attracts sexual predators?

Well, that's an interesting opinion. :crazy:

Though I suppose it goes some way towards explaining why teachers are willing to work long hours for such low pay. We certainly wouldn't want to "disparage" teachers with the "broad brush" that the profession attracts those who find enrichment and fulfillment in the joy of helping children learn or anything.

Enjoy your stay at DU! :hi:

[TBMASE]

48. Well, if we were to look at the number of teachers who have

been caught having sex with their students, one could make that argument. Like I said, those teachers are hardly indicative of the type of people who go into the profession but, if I wanted to point to incidents of bad behavior and use them to attack the profession as a whole, that's how I'd do it.

[Ignis]

59. So the core of your argument is questioning the motives of other DUers?

Got it. That's against the rules, but follow your bliss.

[TBMASE]

61. No

The core of my argument is it's rather silly to make generalizations about the motivation of people who enter their chosen profession.

[Ignis]

67. And yet you haven't demonstrated why.

You've only claimed that generalizations are bad, regardless of whether or not they are based on any evidence. You've yet to support that claim.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

57. The problem with your crappy thesis is "sexual predator" isn't part of...

... a teacher's job description and other teachers run, not walk, to turn in such law breakers.

On the flip side, authoritarian, lying control freak IS part of a cop's job description and other cops almost NEVER turn in fellow law-breakers. You may deny it, but it's a fact that most cops won't "snitch" on a "brother officer" - think about that. Thin blue line, brother officer, code of silence etc. etc. No body is policing the police.

[TBMASE]

62. Lying control freak....I've never found that in a description of duties

in any police recruitment ad.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

63. They save it for the academy where they teach them "probable cause is what I write in the report"

[Xicano]

27. Like they say: If the shoe fits....

In fact the brush you speak of in the OP isn't broad enough as far as I'm concerned. I would add to the OP's "brush" by summarizing cops like this. These are the people in society who are predisposed to act like nazis. They are arrogant control freaks quick to assault people who don't comply to THEIR barking of orders regardless if those orders go against civil rights - displaying they don't give a fuck about the constitution. In fact much of their attitude is they think THEY are the law and they don't give a rat's ass about the constitution if it interferes with their nazi idea that you have to do what THEY say. In addition, many of them (I would say most of them) are sadist to one degree or another.

n/t

[H2O Man]

28. As noted,

the area police departments sought out those darned "broad brush opinions."

[RaleighNCDUer]

56. Ever see the movie "V For Vendetta"?

There are two cops in the movie with significant roles. One is the head of the secret police; the other is a senior investigator with the municipal police.

Two extremely different personalities, both in the same profession, with extremely different attitudes toward their roles in upholding law and order.

I know, it is a worthless example because it is fictional, yada yada yada. Nonsense. They are archtypes, drawn on what we see in daily life.

Maybe you don't understand the meaning of 'broad brush'. The OP clearly is painting two different pictures of two primary types drawn to law enforcement. A 'broad brush' would not differentiate - it would insist that ALL cops are one or the other.

YOU, in fact, are painting the broad brush, in not recognizing that there are different personality types drawn to law enforcement. The OP gave examples of two. No doubt there are others. But the fact that there are others does not negate the fact that there are those who DO go into law enforcement because they are natural bullies. That type is usually weeded out, I think, and I suspect the on-going wars are a reason they are more prevalent today than normal - just as during VietNam. A great many better cops are diverted into military service, and the police forces are left with more lesser candidates, those who in peace time might be getting jobs as night watchmen and mall cops.

It seems you are taking the OP very personally - any reason why?

[mmonk]

49. A broad brush includes all under only one descriptive set.

Since the op did not do that, I was wondering if you have had any difficulties in reading comprehension?

[mike_c]

55. I think the OP is exceptionally generous....

I just regard them all as pigs until they prove otherwise. Thugs for the 1% are NOT our friends.

[NICO9000]

64. Agreed

The piggies in L.A. have acted like storm-troopers for decades. The Rodney King thing was just a blip as it took them almost no time to return to their thuggery.

[OneGrassRoot]

2. Thank you for this.

My life experience is such that I haven't personally had negative experience with law enforcement. I even have family members who were officers, and I've always had a tremendous respect for those who choose this field of service, as I do firefighters, EMS, nurses, etc.

I've known mainly the alpha males you speak of, not the bullies.

I tend to cringe when I see people write or shout "pigs" and such.

(I was also too young to have been involved in or really remember details of the 60s riots and conflicts, so that influences my perception, too.)

I DEFINITELY have always recognized that certain cities seem to have more corrupt police departments, and there are most definitely bad seeds everywhere, some worse than others.

But I gotta say, watching the events of the last few weeks has been turning my stomach, making me see how, at least the "riot police" in many cities are indeed doing the bidding of their masters, not working "to protect and serve" civilians.

It's very, very, very disturbing. It's something many of you have seen and known all along, but it's a new realization to me.

To know there are many police who listen to Limbaugh types and view protestors as "the enemy" is...shit, I don't know, but it's really, really bad.

:(

K&R


edit for typo

[H2O Man]

4. Thanks.

I come from an extended family with many relatives in local, state, and national law enforcement. I've also encountered many people who should never have been given a badge.

[provis99]

19. wtf?

Cops have always been like this. And you just noticed it in the last couple of weeks?

[OneGrassRoot]

20. These are the biggest, most widespread protests in the States I've ever seen...

so, yes.

[obxhead]

5. A high school classmate I knew became an MP and later a county cop.

He was picked on horribly throughout his school life.

I spoke to him a few years after graduation and he became a cop for one reason and one reason only, to get back at all the people that picked on him in school.

He's become quite the bully over the last 20 years.

[Hutzpa]

6. Great article

nice touch on the difference between bullies and alpha-male, Ego vs Ego-Maniacs, same thing
but one with higher consequences.

[Marrah_G]

7. I have had great experiences with cops and bad experience with cops

I also lived with a corrections officer for 5 years. He was one of the good ones. He couldn't stand the bad ones. He always said the bad ones made his job SO much more dangerous.

[Uncle Joe]

8. I believe that's an excellent analysis of the overall psychological makeup of the police.

Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.:thumbsup:

[tk2kewl]

9. It would be great to hear from some of the good cops.

nt

[Uncle Joe]

11. Here is one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2078500

[tk2kewl]

12. Excellent!

:kick:

[immoderate]

10. My dad was a cop. He was widely recognized as a good person.

If anything, he provided an example. He surely wasn't a bully, but if he was an alpha, he wasn't typical, in that he never assumed leadership, but others sought it out in him.

He was a favorite as a scout leader, especially for his gun safety lectures at scout camp. People liked him. He was a commander at the war veterans, and president of the congregation, though he never sought those positions, and had no religious or political opinions that I could discern.

He died in his mid 40's. I never got to appreciate him.

--imm

[Shagbark Hickory]

13. The biggest bully alpha douche I knew when I was a kid grew up to become a Chiropractor.

What does that tell you?

[Stuckinthebush]

He likes to break backs

and gets off on pain? :D

I think my chiropractor is a sadist.

[EFerrari]

21. He failed the physical?

[Magoo48]

24. That he was a pain in the neck?------sorry

[blueamy66]

47. That he's probably a Mormon

who didn't want to spend the money for med school

:-)

[lunatica]

15. Thanks as always

I learn something from you every time.

[Ignis]

26. K&R. I think nurture (dept. policies/environment) plays a huge role, too.

I've known some lovely, helpful LEOs who worked in bad environments (e.g., Rampart division in LAPD). But they were the exception to the rule in an environment that supports "Us vs. Them" thinking.

:kick:

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. I will add a note on this

Police try to screen the first type out ibefore hiring. The job can at times transform the officer into that.

Also departmental culture has a lot to do with how officers evolve in their professional lives. Some cultures are down right toxic.

[H2O Man]

40. The book and movie

"Serpico" -- based upon a very real and important case -- document your last point very well.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. And I made it because OPD is one of them departments

Chicago and NYPD and atlanta as well.

My local department was at one point but the culture changed for the better.

[Octafish]

31. Thank you for an outstanding post!

It's tough being a cop. I was a cop reporter for a while... They have memories like elephants, too.

It's tough being part of a crazy world, too. Gotta have thick skin, like elephants, too.

[Autumn]

33. Excellent, thought provoking post H2O Man

As always, thank you and K/R

[a la izquierda]

34. Thanks for this...

you have no idea how much I needed to read this today.

-From a girl raised in an extended family of cops.

[annabanana]

36. When they are good they are very very good, and when they are bad

they are horrid.

I have often thought that policemen display either the best of humankind, or the worst, depending. You have put it very clearly.

[Tsiyu]

37. Great post

Two thoughts:

Some people appear to think "alpha" means "asshole" as far as the word itself goes. Alpha is just a personality type and doesn't always express as agressive and dominant.

Things should start becoming easier for a cop, since he or she will no longer have to rely solely on a conscience. There will be millions of eyeballs watching everything a cop does.

Doing the right thing should become easy now.

[Jim_Shorts]

38. Interesting subject, I just went to my work room to retrieve a broad brush

Since police are the muscle for the establishment and there are cops like Tony Baloney macing deaf women at demonstrations, I think It's fair to look at who cops are.

Why is it most every union votes for democrats but cops are repubs? If they don't have an authoritarian personality to begin with, they will develop one after joining the fraternity. Every time a cop deals with a situation, he is "in charge" and that power has to work on their personality.

I used to know a cop very well and would say he was a mix of your two personality's above.(definitely authoritarian) They call us "civilians" when on duty, like they are some kind of paramilitary group. Out of the 10 cops that I met I would say 8 were "assholes", 2 of the younger cops were pretty nice.

If the cop I knew was at a demonstration, he would be eager to get the adrenaline flowing and make some memories.

[louslobbs]

41. Thanks for your insights H20 man I always find your posts informative and well thought out. K&R n/t

Lou

[bertman]

42. Thanks for an interesting post, H20 Man. I'm amazed how many of our cops

can remain as restrained as they are given the circumstances they often find themselves in and the kind of inhuman episodes they have to intervene in. These people deal with the worst of society under duress. And they often do it day after day.

I've known some good ones and some bad ones in my six decades here. Sometimes they will confound any preconceptions you might have about them.

If they weren't wearing a distinctive uniform would we be more likely to interact with them in a less contrived fashion? Seems like the uniform is designed to distinguish them and to also intimidate.

Sorry. Just musing.

We have a group of anarchists at our Occupy who HATE the police. These are young, middle-class white people who have no empathy for the police as members of humanity. They see them strictly as robotic protectors of the 1%. My guess is that during any interaction they might have with the police, their vibe would telegraph and immediately put up a block to communication regardless of how the police acted. And this is in a town where the police have been totally hands-off and don't even hang around our Occupy.

REC.

[MellowDem]

43. You stereotype a profession...

then try to rationalize it.

You're still stereotyping based off of.... nothing but your personal opinions (and biases and prejudices, which you don't expose of course).

I also don't think people fit into nice and neat personality types to the level you seem to portray in order to put forth your fairly black and white view of a profession.

Even your definitions of "bullies" and "alpha males" are rather arbitrary.

I understand the desire to categorize people and fit them into boxes, but it's usually quite a silly exercise and in this case comes across as trying to fit a narrative.

[H2O Man]

50. Yes & No.

Without question, it is my opinion. But opinions are based upon the interpretation of facts and truths. Otherwise, one simply has a bias. Since you attribute both to me, you can -- at best -- be batting .500.

If you had read post #29, or even the full OP, I suspect that you would have stuck with attributing the OP to my opinion.

[MellowDem]

51. One's opinion...

is usually informed by biases and prejudices, especially when it comes to opinions relating to generalizations. It's possible to have a biased, or prejudiced, opinion. Quite a few opinions are informed by neither facts or truths.

I guess I would rather see a study done on the personality types of cops than just opinions based on one person's experiences and perceptions, if we are going to generalize anyways.

I'm not always comfortable with generalizing about people that are seen as "against" the interests of progressives. It's a tactic conservatives use so much themselves to pretty harmful effect. Just look at how they generalize about the OWS movement.

[H2O Man]

53. Nope.

Opinions and biases are distinct.

[csziggy]

45. What do you think of the Stanford Prison Experiment?

http://www.prisonexp.org/

I've always thought that although there may be various personalities that are attracted to law enforcement, without the proper leadership at the top, the most negative aspects of any personality can emerge. Those negative traits can be given expression if the situation is not well managed.

The Stanford Prison Experiment shows how this works. Basically, there was no control from the top and the most negative aspects of the "guards" were allowed to run amok.

I can see how this can also happen in merged forces situations where no one chain of command is in control.

Most of the police officer I have dealt with are fine people - though I have met a few who were just weird or creepy - but I can see how in the wrong circumstances, they could get out of control and make bad decisions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. As you said leadership and department culture matters

OPD's procedures for less than lethal are pretty vanilla flavor and recognizable to anybody familiar. They were not followed...that starts at the top.

[PurgedVoter]

58. Culture can have a large influence.

I grew up, knowing, because it was true at that time and place, that the police protected us. Since then I have encountered more than enough officers of the law that were simply bullies with guns. No gross generality here, often the culture dictates what survives as a police officer.

Robert F. Kennedy, in his book, The Pursuit of Justice, said, 'Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on."

Right now, in many places, we need to insist on a higher grade of law enforcement. We need to insist on a standard of law enforcement that allows honest police officers to be not only honest, but forthright. When a cover up is being created even before the crime, it is not forthright. When an activity is deceitful, and premeditated to place blame on victims, it is not forthright. For example, the Oakwood Police Department, mayor and police chief are not being forthright. When a large group shows no forthright individuals, it becomes clear that the culture is tainted. That there is in fact a subculture that protects itself over it's community.

We may now have an answer to Juvenal's question, 'Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?'

Citizens with cell phone cameras!

[H2O Man]

60. Solid response.

Thank you.

[janet118]

66. Excellent points . . .

So much depends on the culture and the ones in charge. If the nasty cops are allowed to bully and the others cover up or remain silent and the chief or shift officer don't reprimand them, the bullies will take over. It's amazing how the whole tone of policing can change once the good ones are empowered and the bullies disciplined.

[RegieRocker]

65. When good cops start outing bad cops then I will believe there

are good cops. End of story.