3 day suspension for beating up a gay kid????

[rdking647]

an asswipe of a bully harrassed a gay student of facebook than beat the crap out of him. people sttod around and filmed it on their cellphones rather than intervening
the kid ended up with a possible concussion and a chipped tooth.
the schools response??? the bully got a 3 day suspension.

the kid should be expelled and those that stood around should be suspended
http://www.khq.com/story/15892254/horrific-attack-of-gay-high-school-student-caught-on-tape

[valerief]

1. Clearly the gay kid wasn't a 1%er. If he were, the bully would have been given a life sentence. nt

[KansDem]

2. I saw the video

If that were my kid getting the beating, I'd be paying a visit to his father.

Then I'd be paying a visit to the DA...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. Some criticize the student who took the video for not stopping it

In many schools they would have been suspended for "fighting" and we would not have this prima facie evidence.

[Arkansas Granny]

69. That happened to my son. He and a friend had a gun pulled on them

in the hallway between classes. They managed to disarm the other student and held him on the floor until school security got there. They were both suspended as well as the student who pulled the gun. It was the zero tolerance rule against fighting on school grounds. Go figure. I guess dead or wounded is preferable to self preservation.

[RKP5637]

3. Hence sometimes we have to turn to this in this society and do the following ...

http://www.pinkpistols.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Pistols

If society is failing us, then we have to protect ourselves as best we can.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. Fuck Yeah! Concealed Carry On Campus. Shoot the bullies!

Are you insane?

[RKP5637]

21. Some people live in dire situations. No, not in a school setting. This, is the

responsibility of the schools.

[HillWilliam]

18. No offense, but I do wish people would stop bringing up the Pink Pistols

on DU. I checked them out and they're pretty-much freeperland. Ew. 99% of the messages on their board were racist and extremely anti-Obama.

That's NOT the kind of group I would support under ANY circumstances. I'm a Democrat right down to the ground. No thinking person and no Democrat would get involved with them, trust.

[RKP5637]

23. I agree with you, but what do people in dire situations do. Pink Pistols might

not be appropriate, but IMO some people do need protection at least in their own homes from gay bashing thugs.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. The Pinks are a very mixed bag...

Local members I spend time with make DU look like Freeperland at times. I have also trained some members.

Not clear who has control of the national website. It was getting very dated, but I just checked and it has been redone. Nice job best I can tell. I did not see a lot of what you complained about at the top layers of the site.

[aikoaiko]

64. In the fight against gay bashing, I welcome all (even rightwingers) who are correct on this issue

[ProgressiveProfessor]

104. I would not call the Pinks right wing, or at least not the ones I know

Many of the students I train in firearms are GLBTs and women. Some have already had an incident or event. While they are still committed liberals they are also committed to doing a perfect double tap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_tap)if the circumstances call for it.

[aikoaiko]

107. I wouldn't either. I only meant to reframe the issue since the other comments

seemed to denigrate the PP because some are right wing.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

108. Some here have a real problem with the Pinks

surprised one in particular has not posted in this sub thread yet

The prior website was pretty hardcore 2A over everything...not surprising seeing some of the experiences I have heard. This new one seems much more balanced, but in the end it boils down to that armed gays don't get bashed.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TK421]

36. Are there really posters here who defend it?

that is beyond disgusting

[HughBeaumont]

45. Well, yes.

Among some of the gems of the past . . .

"Being an asshole isn't a crime"
"It's part of growing up"
"whole lot of whine on this thread"
"the kid should have defended himself"
"You can play 'victim' all you like, but I won't"

[TK421]

47. It's part of growing up...really? it is? what utter fucking CRAP!!!! FUCK!!

and I was harassed from grade school through high school, so just SEEING that fucking bullshit absolutely infuriates me. I ended up having to go to an alternative school for 11th and 12th grade because I threatened to bring an object into school to "get rid of" these two muscle headed douchebag brothers who were constantly giving me shit..I had even gone to the guidance counselor and brought it to the attention of the principal ( worthless fuckbag that he was )prior to that, and still nothing was done about it.

I think it's time to get really fucking serious about this bullying issue in schools, since too many people seem to think that it is just "boys being boys" or some shit like that

[HughBeaumont]

49. Except this wasn't bullying, this was pre-meditated assault.

What galls me about it is how no one of ANY age did ANYTHING at ALL to stop it. This was an attack in CLASS. Where were the teachers? Where was anyone besides those filming it? How could he be left alone to defend himself against this fucker?

Like it was said below - would any of us put up with this if it happened to us as adults?

NO.

So why do we think it's perfectly alright to subject childen to this standard?

Aren't schools, BY definition, supposed to be preparing our children for the real world?

[TK421]

50. Understood, there certainly is a fucked-up mentality at work there

and yes, schools are supposed to be institutions of learning basic life skills, and not places where you are afraid to send your kids. The fucking hammer must be brought down on this shit once and for all...ENOUGH! It's been acceptable for far too long! If any of these places where shit like this happened haven't been looked into thoroughly, I say start with the principal and see if there were any precautionary measures taken leading up to the point of assault; it happened in my case, it just never got to "assault"

[redqueen]

61. That's what they're doing

preparing them for the real world. Using these methods, the weak/poor/disenfranchised people are taught what their place is, and to stay in it... average people go along with it out of a desire to identify with the strong/rich/those who abuse their power... the support of those people helps keep the bullies on top. Or something. If that makes sense.

[HughBeaumont]

82. HA, and on THAT note, take a look below!!!

RIGHT ON CUE.

Amazing. Fucking AMAZING!!!

[TK421]

91. I have a talent for that! n/t

[Posteritatis]

160. Bullying threads here usually have a number of defenders and even the occasional advocate. (nt)

[Jkid]

5. No, the thug needs to be in jail. With real criminals, or at least in juv hall.

[Aerows]

6. If there was ever pre-meditated assault, this was it

What's wrong with the other kids, too, that stood around doing nothing? I was a dorky, geeky kid in high school (and probably still am as an adult) but I've stood up to people before that thought they could harass others.

And 3 days suspension? OMG. Kids can get that for passing notes too much. I can't believe it. This is a beating and a hate crime.

[Bluenorthwest]

7. This must please DNC's new faith guy

He is openly anti gay, much like other Obama preacher hypocrites. They will be toasting the bully, we know this.

[Aerows]

14. Judging by the responses to this thread

Your assessment is incorrect. I don't agree with labeling every single person of a political persuasion as being like this guy just because you may not agree with their views on the whole.

When "those people" show up, you might have a case, but as of yet, I've seen nothing but sorrow at this young man's ordeal. I say that as a human being and a poster, not as a mod.

[Aerows]

40. DNC funding

http://pamshouseblend.firedoglake.com/2011/10/05/big-news-dnc-open-to-funding-fight-against-anti-gay-amendments/

No need to apologize.

[QC]

97. Shhhhhhhhhhhh! We're not supposed to talk about that! n/t

[ChazII]

8. Agree that the bully should have been expelled.

It would be interesting to learn more about the bully. Is he ADHD, ED or have any other disorder that might 'protect' him. Just asking as I have had students 'protected' because of their classification in the educational system.

[JoeyT]

54. Most of the time a disorder won't protect you.

I was diagnosed ADHD and in high school I got a ten day suspension for blocking a punch. (And the lesson I learned from that was the right one: Never passively resist. You're going to get in trouble for fighting, so fight.)

More likely the "condition" that's protecting him is either rich parents, a parent that's in the administration or on the school board, or he's an athlete. Or the person deciding the punishment is a bigot too.

I'm actually shocked the kid that got beaten didn't get suspended.

[KurtNYC]

9. the attacker has issues, obviously

there is a good chance he is a self-hating closet case -- why else is obsessed with someone else's sexuality? All the same, he should be charged as an adult with felony assault. Someone who does this unprovoked to ANY other person is a problem for schools and society.

The word "bully" is a euphemism which seeks to downgrade and minimalize what is legally assault, and in this case "lying in wait." It would be helpful if schools, the media and all involved would call this stuff what it is -- sociopathic criminal behavior.

[Aerows]

11. I agree with you

This ins't "bullying" this is pre-meditated assault.

[get the red out]

13. Yes, "bullying" is a cover up

That term should never be used for assault. And I can't help but wonder why it is seemingly ok for a kid to beat the hell out of another student (especially one that is gay) but once they are adults we expect them to shape up and know that it is illegal? If a kid brings drugs to school they get in worse trouble, I feel like harming another human being is a worse crime than using drugs! Guess I'm just nuts that way.

[BlueState]

25. I agree 100%

Bullying is a problem we as a society and our school systems should do our best. through education and when
needed punishment, to eliminate.

That being said this isn't bullying it is criminal assault. That kid is a danger to others.

Failure of the DA to prosecute and adequately punish should result in the citizens of Chillicothe, Ohio
taking to the streets in protest.

Anybody in or around that community that could help initiate such an action?

[FloridaJudy]

103. It's been my experience that they all do

Looking back at my own school experience, the kids who had something going for them, the musically or artistically gifted, the honor roll members, and - contrary to myth - the stellar athletes, were never the bullies. The bullies were the marginal kids, the ones who had no other way to feel superior than to pick on those weaker than them.

Granted those kids need all kinds of psychological and educational help, but the rest of us need protection from them in the meantime. They shouldn't be allowed back in school until they prove they can trusted. A three day suspension isn't going to cut it. That's what they gave my own kid for smoking behind the bleachers, and the only one he was hurting was himself.

[Posteritatis]

159. Alternately, the bully could just be an asshole. (nt)

[H2O Man]

10. It is frustrating.

This month, at a school board meeting, we reviewed a similar case. A kid had assaulted a disabled student, and caused a permenant injury. Upon our lawyer's advice, the administration was only able to suspend the violent kid for four days.

We were able to let the parents of the injured kid know that they still had two other options, which include seeking the criminal justice system to charge the attacker, and also going to civil court.

My position is that the school should have called the police.

[justiceischeap]

15. I think if more and more schools started calling police over this kind of behaviour

that kids, in suburban schools anyway, would be less likely to pull this kinda crap.

I got suspended in school once for 3 days (smoking outside waiting for the bus) and viewed it as a vacation.

[Aerows]

16. I agree with you

This truly goes into the realm of needing to involve the criminal justice system. You can't just give people concussions and break teeth and get "suspended". This guy that did this has a serious issue, and "suspending" him isn't going to fix it.

[H2O Man]

22. Right.

My question was, if you catch a kid with a joint, what do you do? The response includes calling the police and a suspension. Obviously, a physical assault -- in these cases, hate crimes -- are far more serious.

[Aerows]

24. AMEN!

When did a kid experimenting with marijuana become more hazardous than a kid beating the hell out of another kid and giving him a concussion and a broken tooth?

Major disconnect there.

[justiceischeap]

31. I have to wonder if that was a black kid that beat the snot of

a white kid, if he would have been put in cuffs as well as expelled.

[Aerows]

44. Valid question.

I'd like to see if there are precedents over the school's history.

[knitter4democracy]

52. Most do these days.

The district I work in does. It's assault and treated as such. That three day suspension is what the school does, but the courts have another set of rules.

[RKP5637]

19. IMO parents should also start going after the schools in civil court for

negligence in not having gotten the police involved. To me, this is clearly a police incident. PS: Not addressing this directly to your school, but schools in general. Schools are getting off too easy in this BS IMO.

[H2O Man]

20. I agree.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

105. Not winnable...no specific duty to protect, not unlike the cops

Exception would be prior knowledge etc.

[RKP5637]

140. Would that be prior knowledge that a particular student was being bullied in general, or

prior knowledge that this 'specific' individual was bullying the student? Just curious.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

152. No, that the agressor had a history of threats and the school did nothing

Even then it would be a stretch.

[RKP5637]

153. Thanks! n/t

[CreekDog]

162. why are you relying on that poster? he could be the professor in Gilligan's Island for all you know

does that make him reliable? :eyes:

[RKP5637]

164. I didn't really infer he was reliable, it was just my thanks for getting back to me. n/t

[CreekDog]

161. you are wrong --schools have duties to report certain things for protection of children

you say flatly that there is "NO" meaning, none, never, etc. duty to protect.

wrong.

i don't know what you're a professor of, but it's not law.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

166. Duty to protect as in a requirement to stop it from happening.

Generically if a child gets attacked at school, you can not sue the school. Exceptions to that would include if staff facilitated or had knowledge is was going to happen. Yes they are supposed to keep the kids safe but if a bad thing happens, you can't sue them anymore than you can sue the cops for failing to protect you from a crime.

Example #1: Student is assaulted by another student without warning.

Example #2: Student makes specific and detailed online threats against another student. Those are reported to the school. School does nothing. One of the threats is carried out.

While you could sue the school in case #1, there had better be some sort of major failing on their part. You would stand a much better chance in #2 since they had specific knowledge of the potential problem ahead of time and did nothing. Still would not expect much.

[justiceischeap]

12. What I don't understand is why the kid wasn't expelled but also why he wasn't arrested

isn't that simple assault?

One thing that's nice, is at least the comments on the story aren't full of the usual right-wing crap.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. The parents would have to file. The school won't and will actively discourage the parents from

doing it.

[justiceischeap]

30. I hope the mother pressures the prosecutor to take action

if not, I'd find an attorney and file a civil suit against the parents of this kid.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. My daughter was involved in an off campus altercation with other students

School wanted to punish her for it and the staff literally forbade me from filing a police report. They were furious when they learned one had already been submitted.

Administrators hate seeing their schools on the police blotters

[justiceischeap]

42. Which is why is should become a common practice

because that would force the school administrators to actually address the issue.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

43. It would mean surrendering some of the autonomy they think they have

and its not going to happen.

We caught hell for our daughter's incident. Ended up with the head counselor being "reassigned" for her over reaching. District defended it as being "well intentioned" and "in the best interest of the students involved". We simply said that if she remained in any way connected to our daughters, we would go after a RO and she and the district would be sued. District removed involved personnel, but it was clear we were unwelcome from that point forward.

[Aerows]

46. I was invovled in an "altercation" on the bus

In that I was tired of having males flash me, harass me, and generally try to make life miserable for everyone on the bus, me included. They were furious when I said something. Frankly, as good of a student as I was, I would have been thankful to be tossed out of school at that point, because I was genuinely afraid someone was going to be killed on the bus, or I would end up raped. It was totally out of hand.

[JVS]

74. If it was off campus then why would the school be involved at all?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

78. That was our question

Lead school counselor asserted long arm jurisdiction since all participants were students in theory on their way home from school. In the end the district did not stand behind it

[knitter4democracy]

53. Depends on the district. Most around here call the cops and press charges.

I've had three kids out of class already this year for court hearings from stuff at school.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

101. Not where we were at the time.

A student we knew was involved in an on campus fracas like the one described here. Police did not want to get involved. The family forced the issue eventually. Then again, that was some time ago, and the policies may have changed.

[Shagbark Hickory]

28. Lawsuit time. n/t

[truebrit71]

29. Suspension? Bugger that...he should be facing assault charges...

..fuck that noise...

[dtexdem]

33. Another felonious assault like that, and we'll not only slap your hands ...

we'll also send you to your room.

[ThatsMyBarack]

35. Maybe the attacker was the football team's star player.

It IS football season, you know. This is America. You know how important WINNING is! :sarcasm:

[HughBeaumont]

37. This was assault.

Assault is a crime.

He was ambushed.

This warrants arrest.

Why didn't someone clock that big fuck with a chair?

[jwirr]

38. Maybe it is time that some of these schools and families of bullies

get taken to court for damages. These bullies are committing a crime for which they get very little punishment. Time to treat this for what it is.

[Aerows]

39. Here is a perfect example of how we, as gay people are being defended

http://pamshouseblend.firedoglake.com/2011/10/05/big-news-dnc-open-to-funding-fight-against-anti-gay-amendments/

[sarcasmo]

41. Should be in jail.

[redqueen]

48. Why do some kids get arrested on campus...

for being unruly with teachers...but these assaults apparently aren't even reported to police?

[etherealtruth]

72. Good question

[distantearlywarning]

51. If this were my kid, I'd have a civil suit filed so fast administrators' heads would spin

And I'd also be pushing for assault charges.

[JoeyT]

55. The kids around it might have been afraid to get suspended for fighting too.

Zero tolerance is everywhere now. Given how sympathetic the school's administration appears to be toward hate crimes, they'd have probably gotten a longer suspension than the guy doing it.

We can say "To hell with suspension, I'd have stopped it!", and that's probably true. But we aren't kids and it's easy to forget the constant brainwashing kids get to obey all the rules and fear authority as you get older.

The kid shouldn't be expelled, he should be arrested. Whoever decided a three day suspension was enough should be fired. Whatever school this happened at should be sued and it should be made clear that the lawsuit wouldn't have happened if appropriate punishment had been dealt out so they have trouble jumping to another school.

Edited to add: And kids shouldn't have to fear repercussions from authority figures for stopping a hate crime.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceNikki]

57. I beg to differ. If he was beaten for being black, or Hispanic would you feel the same way?

I think it clearly falls under a hate crime that should be treated as a civil rights violation. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard

If this kid was involved in a fight and just happened to be gay, I would agree. This kid was beaten BECAUSE he is gay, which is a hate crime.

[Cid_B]

58. I would feel the same way....

Motivation is not a deciding factor for me...

[PeaceNikki]

59. Thankfully the law disagrees with you. Bias-motivated violence is treated more harshly as a crime.

And the schools should follow suit. Beating, bullying, assaulting, killing someone because of certain personal characteristics should be treated differently in a civilized society.

I assume that you generally dislike hate-crime legislation.

[Cid_B]

62. Correct...

An ass kicking is an ass kicking is an ass kicking...

[PeaceNikki]

66. eek, well, again, thankfully the law disagrees with your fucked up view of the world.

I, for one, am glad that there are harsher penalties for bias-motivated crimes.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

60. It is for the law

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cid_B]

89. I encourage some reading and writing supplementation for you...

Seriously, WTF are you talking about...?

What made you think that I suggested that the person who was beaten should receive the same punishment (3 day suspension?)

I would likely be in favor of something to reduce (but not eliminate) "bullying" if there was a realistic solution. I haven't heard one yet...

Maybe you just had an epiphany? If so, by all means feel free to share with the class.

[CreekDog]

92. you haven't heard "one" anti-bullying effort that you like yet --you've heard hundreds

quit acting like you just got here yesterday. you've been posting on this topic for what feels like ages.

[Cid_B]

93. Again.. reading and writing ... critical skills.. build em up..

I didn't say I haven't heard any. I haven't heard one that would accomplish it's stated goal of reducing or eliminating "bullying" in any meaningful way.

[CreekDog]

106. You know what I refuse to do? I refuse to read your one message apart from your other posts

you don't get to post here like you've never posted on the topic before.

and besides, let's just get to the real point here --you think that kid needed to do a better job of defending himself and by not doing so, it's all on him.

that's an odios opinion, but it's yours.

[Cid_B]

110. A few things...

1) My points are consistent across the board. You just seem to have difficulty finding the flaws with them so you resort to bashing..

2) The fault lies with the guy who kicked the kids ass. Is that in question here? I do hope that, in the future, the victim does improve his ability to defend himself, physically and socially.

So, reread what I wrote and double check those "odios" opinions of yours. You may be surprised what you see.

[CreekDog]

111. what about your homophobia? here's a quote from this thread:

"If you think that isn't enough then petition for a rule change but the fact that the kid was gay doesn't make it any worse than if he wailed on a normal kid."

emphasis mine. calling a kid who is gay not normal is yours.

:wtf:

[Cid_B]

117. Frisky aren't you?

nor·mal   
adjective
1. conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

Last I checked heterosexuals made up more than 50.01% of the population... right?

Look, I know you are having a tough time with this and your last desperate gasp is to try and call me a homophobe for a statistical analysis but I still encourage you to keep trying.

[CreekDog]

121. nice try

:rofl:

oh and PS-you just made it worse. :eyes:

[Cid_B]

123. So should I just assume that means that you've given up...

... trying to chat with the adults?

[CreekDog]

124. quite the contrary...I just think a place like DU, you can't call gay people not "normal"

i kind of think that's a show stopper.

it explains ALL of your posting on this topic. you think there's regular, you know, heterosexual and not regular...something else.

yeah, that's wrong.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

128. I'm still here

And the adult thing to do is confront you on your own statement. And what we found out is that you are quite proud of it.

and by the way: your service in the military doesn't give you the right to suggest that i'm not a man for not being willing to argue on your terms.

you can save that stuff for people that have to take orders from you.

[uppityperson]

143. Majority = "normal"? WTF? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[Cid_B]

145. If most people are a certain thing then that is "normal"...

[uppityperson]

146. By your definition, being gay is abnormal. So is having red hair. Or blue eyes.

You are incredible. Again, I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[Shining Jack]

170. Let's pretend that I'm following your bullshit "logic":

Most people are not assholes therefore you are not normal.

[RetroLounge]

136. I noticed that too.

:wtf:

RL

[CreekDog]

116. one thing: you think gay kids aren't "normal"

i can't get past that. and it's consistent with your constant posting in threads about gay kids getting bullied.

Cid_B:

"If you think that isn't enough then petition for a rule change but the fact that the kid was gay doesn't make it any worse than if he wailed on a normal kid."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2201525&mesg_id=2208138

[flvegan]

129. He also seems to think that this kid

just needs to "grow a sack"

It's almost comical.

[CreekDog]

130. but he's not a bigot

just says gays aren't normal.

and that a gay kid needs some balls.

along with all the other posts in the thread and elsewhere against any effort to stop bullying (well, to be fair, not a single idea about doing something about bullying ever made sense to him). incidentally, the poster had lots of concern about repealing DADT.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

86. yes, it's called not giving a shit

congratulations on taking pride in feeling that way.

:shrug:

[NYC Liberal]

63. It's not just a fight. If the kid was beaten up specifically for being gay,

then ALL gay kids at the school are at risk. Just like if a kid were beaten up for being black, then all black kids at the school would be at risk.

A kid beating up a specific kid with whom they had a specific problem is not an inherent threat to a whole group of people.

That's the reason behind hate-crime laws.

[Cid_B]

67. So?

What if the kid was beaten up for being in the band? Should we pass a law to protect everyone with a tuba?

Motivation is null...

[PeaceNikki]

68. Says you. Society should and does treat criminal acts of prejudice and bias differently.

USA! USA!! USA!

[NYC Liberal]

70. It's not null at all.

The reason band members are not protected in hate-crime legislation is because there is no widespread history of people being beaten, brutalized, and killed for being in a band. There is such a history of violence against people for their race, gender, sexual orientation, and religion.

How many people walking down the street are attacked specifically for being black or being a woman vs being in a band?

Moreover, if motivation is "null," then there should be no distinction between homicides. Everyone who kills someone, regardless of their intention or motivation, should be charged with what is currently "first degree" murder. Right?

[Cid_B]

71. I think there are probably some former band geeks who would disagree with you...

[PeaceNikki]

73. Are you against ALL anti-discrimination laws that involve protected classes of people?

Or just those involving the super-cool "skill" of fighting?

[NYC Liberal]

75. Again, that there are instances of people being targeted because

they are in a band is not equivalent to hundreds of years of history of widespread discrimination and violence.

[Cid_B]

76. Oh ok.. there is a time limit...

People have been picking on nerds for a while now...

[NYC Liberal]

77. Nope, there is a frequency limit.

Violence based on race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. occur much more often all over the country and thus pose a greater threat to more people.

Assaulting or killing anyone is wrong (and illegal). But certain unique types of violence require different solutions.

[Cid_B]

79. Maybe you could make a chart or a graph or something...

... to show who is more important than who or who it is ok to beat up...

"You'd better not be fighting with anyone, unless they are just like you"

Dumb...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2201525&mesg_id=2208392

[PeaceNikki]

94. There is a measure. Clear and legal.

They are crimes committed on the basis of a person's protected characteristics of race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, and disability.

Being a "nerd" or "band geek" is not a protected class. If you'd like to make them protected classes, you should work on that. In the meantime, the above classes are, in fact, protected.

I ask you again, Are you against ALL anti-discrimination laws that involve protected classes of people or just those involving the super-cool "skill" of fighting?

[NYC Liberal]

113. Nice try. But no one said it is "ok" to beat anybody up

or that anyone is "more important" than anyone else.

[Cid_B]

118. But that is exactly what it means...

If you beat on X student you get a certain amount of punishment.

If you beat on Y student you get more punishment than if you had beaten X.

Kinda sounds like Y is more important than X to me. Where is the logic gap?

[PeaceNikki]

119. Are you against ALL anti-discrimination laws that involve protected classes of people?

You still haven't answered that question.

[NYC Liberal]

168. It's exactly not what it means.

In one case you are beating up a student with whom you have a specific gripe.

In the other, you are doing two things: not only are you beating up a student, you are also making a threat to everyone else who shares that student's trait (be it race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.)

It's analogous to robbing a bank by pointing a gun at the teller vs robbing the bank by taking a gun to the teller and everyone inside and holding them hostage.

[Hippo_Tron]

83. Actually I think Cid_B has a point as far as schools are concerned

I don't think there's a history enough of widespread discrimination and violence against people in the school band that congress needs to be making them a protected class under the law.

However, if the bully beats up a kid for being in the band, then that's still meant to intimidate everybody in the band. And the school is a small enough environment that said beating will have that effect. Therefore, I see no reason the school shouldn't punish him additionally for intimidation the same way that they should punish somebody for intimidating all gay kids by beating them up.

Additionally, 3 day suspension for beating ANYBODY up is way too fucking lenient.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

96. I am waiting for someone to talk about how to turn this kind of hate around

Whether or not the kid's parents are sued into the poor house and he ends up with a juvenile record for this, shouldn't we also be addressing how to turn the kid around at some level? Some/many/most of young people are still reachable at that age and can be turned around. Yes this was egregious, but shouldn't we also be looking at solutions?

Outlawing something and hard punishment is a reactionary way to address things. Shouldn't we also be looking forward at how to stop it from existing?

[NYC Liberal]

112. "3 day suspension for beating ANYBODY up is way too fucking lenient"

Agreed. And not just on the length. Are there alternatives to suspension? Because the kid is not going to care about the effect of a suspension on his academic record. It's just going to be a vacation for him.

[CreekDog]

157. Is it too long for being beat up cause there gay?

Seems to be kinda absent from your post.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

142. Kids across the board are targeted by bullies because they are weak

And it often has zero to do with them being gay, a minority, or a different religion.....

I think picking on weak kids is as much a hate crime as anything, but there are no civil rights laws that say it's a hate crime to attack a fat kid or a scrawny kid.....

[NYC Liberal]

167. So lobby Congress or your state legislature to get those groups

added to hate crime laws.

The poster to whom I was replying was arguing that motivation in committing crimes is irrelevant. It's not.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

80. Band in some schools is a more powerful group that the football team

Also tends to encompass all grades

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

137. Brainpower is nil

but keep trying.

RL

[ProgressiveProfessor]

81. Mixed feelings on that.

I tend to go with no hate crime enhancements but think it could be used for referral into mandatory counseling etc when dealing with juveniles. They may still be reachable.

The other problem I have generically with hate crime enhancements is their capricious application. Makes the death penalty and drug laws look rational and sane. Until it is more uniformly and consistently applied, they remain uncomfortable at best.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

88. "their capricious application"

Oh bull fucking shit. Let's see some facts to back that up.

Where the motive can be shown, usually by the dipshit's own admission, the hate crimes laws are applied. There has to be evidence. Otherwise, it becomes simple assault, battery whatever. Knuckle-dragging bigot homophobes aren't the brightest bulbs in the box - they usually do a fine job of incriminating themselves and/or, as in the case in the OP, leave a trail of witnesses and statements.

The case in the OP the kid was on the victim's FB page calling him a fag 2 days prior to the attack. He laid in wait on video.

Now I'll wait for your evidence hate crimes laws are applied capriciously.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

95. Indeed, the application is inconsistent and I am far from the only one concerned about it

http://www.thecamdensociety.co.uk/police-response-to-disability-hate-crime-patchy-and-inconsistent-says-mencap-report
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/697835/Current-law-inconsistent-on-hate-crimes-Lee-says.html
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3132/defining_hate_in_the_united_states/
http://learn.uci.edu/media/F07/00001/johnson_byers.pdf
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-police-agree-to-address-complaints-about-gay-hate-crime-documentation/2011/07/06/gIQAO7XG1H_story.html
http://www.colorado.edu/cspv/publications/papers/CSPV-003.pdf

Many are concerned that hate crime laws and their application is very inconsistent and far from uniform. The above links are a mix of academic, news, and opinion pieces. Additionally there are complaints of them being used disproportionately against one group versus another or complaints of improper use, which are also out there since there is not enough data and rigor in the reports.

This case was clear gay bashing. No one would dispute that. My position with young offenders that they are still reachable in this area and think juveniles should have mandatory counseling rather than additional punishment in an attempt to change their attitudes. Do you disagree with that?

[PeaceNikki]

99. Broken down:

The first link is in the UK and discusses the idea that not all protected classes are equally protected. That link is an argument in favor of more rigorous enforcement, not against the general idea of hate crime enhancers (which is what Cid is arguing, BTW).

Your second link is a dismal 12 years old and also discusses inconsistency - again, not what our friend Cid here was arguing in this sub-thread.

Your third link is a study on whether the general public thinks GLBT should be included as a protected class - thankfully a settled issue.

Your fourth link is a discussion about police enforcement of crimes committed against the now protected class - again arguing for better enforcement, not less as Cid thinks should be the case.

Your final link is a 16 year-old study on youth participation in hate crimes. A very important and in-depth analysis about hate-crime prevention and awareness.

I think the misunderstanding in this sub-thread is that you are taking the position that they should be better/more evenly enforced while Cid thinks they should not exist?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

100. I was responding to the prior poster who erroneously claimed they were uniformly enforced

and clearly they are not. Not supporting you or Cid here...just clearing up a misunderstanding on Has Bin's part.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

151. And I was replying to the prior poster (you) who said this:

"I tend to go with no hate crime enhancements"

[ProgressiveProfessor]

154. I do for juveniles, thinking that mandatory counseling etc may be more effective

than additional punishment for younger offenders who may still be able to be turned around.

I also have reservation over hate crime enhancements today since they are so inconsistently applied. That is a basic justice concern, not specific to crimes motivated by hate. Justice needs to uniform to be fair.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

158. What about clear unambiguous cases of a hate crime?

I'm not sure I follow your logic.

Are you against hate crime legislation because it doesn't get applied enough?

What about a federal hate crime law to include sexual orientation as a protected class? For or against?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

109. Wait a minute.....

You say you are against hate crime legislation because of the "capricious" way in which said legislation is applied.

Capricious:

1.subject to, led by, or indicative of caprice or whim; erratic: He's such a capricious boss I never know how he'll react.

2.Obsolete. fanciful or witty.

Then you put up 6 bullshit links, four of which are articles saying hate crimes laws are not enforced or reported ENOUGH.

Sorry if I didn't read the other papers/studies.... because I call bullshit on your posting a bunch of links that don't support any assertion you made in the beginning of this sub-thread.

Or are we to believe you are against Hate Crime legislation because hate crimes are under reported???

[ProgressiveProfessor]

155. The application is indeed erratic and erratic justice is not fair justice.

I do oppose them for juveniles in favor of counseling etc since they could be turned around and additional punishment will not address the issue.

[Lyric]

163. No offense, but usually when someone says this, what they MEAN is

"Black people who beat up white people aren't being charged with hate crimes often enough!!!" And honestly, that's such a racist point of view that it's not even worth discussing further. I sincerely hope you're not one of THOSE people.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

165. While I have seen that position, it is not mine

and specifically did not post any references along those lines.

[CreekDog]

114. Stop saying gay kids aren't "normal"

what's the matter with you?

Cid_B:

"If you think that isn't enough then petition for a rule change but the fact that the kid was gay doesn't make it any worse than if he wailed on a normal kid."

emphasis mine. calling a kid who is gay not normal is yours.

:wtf:

[Cid_B]

120. Is there a reason you posted the same general thing three times?

[CreekDog]

122. Ashamed of your opinion?

there's always hope.

[flvegan]

131. I think that it's good to expose bigotry.

Helps us advance.

[Cid_B]

132. If I see some I'll be sure to point it out....

[flvegan]

133. I can help.

For a start, go to the top of your screen where those pretty icons are. Click the one that says "My DU" and look under "My Posts"

If you need further assistance, do let me know.

[Cid_B]

134. You're such a bully...

My tender feelings are damaged beyond repair...

[flvegan]

139. I thought you said that you grew a sack?

Poor baby.

[CreekDog]

169. a bully would call a guy kid not "normal" as you did

:eyes:

[motely36]

126. 'a normal kid'

nice...

[RetroLounge]

138. "a normal kid."

WTF does that mean?

What a fucking bigotted and telling statement.

:puke:

RL

[HughBeaumont]

144. This really isn't the only red flag.

DADT is also a "concern" to "Ignored".

:puke:

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

141. gay kid vs "normal kid"? WTF?

[HuckleB]

147. It wasn't a fight.

It was a premeditated attack that went on and on.

Try again.

[apocalypsehow]

84. Suspended, hell - the bully should have been arrested, and charges pressed.

Absolutely outrageous.

[Initech]

90. If I were the kid that's exactly what I wouldve done.

[TK421]

98. Hey, it's just boys being boys! We ALL go through this! It's an initiation rite!

gotta be a REAL MAN AND TAKE SOME PHYSICAL ABUSE!!! If you can't do that, son, you're a PUSSY!!

OH YEAH!! THAT is the fucking bullshit this society attempts to pass on to your kids!

Hey parents!, If you suspect your kid is guilty of bullying you just might want to pass along the message to them that kids out there are starting to fight back...sometimes violently so, and you just might be attending the funeral of your sweet angel..

Jesus.H. Christ, don't we, as a fucking species, ever fucking LEARN?!! A fucking thing?

[RKP5637]

102. We profess to be a society moving forward, but often people link advancement

as a society and civilized behavior with technological advancement. Yes, we've moved forward in terms of technological advancement, but IMO not always so much as a society and civilized behavior ... better, but certainly far from optimal.

Christ, all one has to do is take a quick glance at the hostilities in the world and it's just one huge WTF. Exactly as you said, I agree so much, "Jesus.H. Christ, don't we, as a fucking species, ever fucking LEARN?!! A fucking thing?"

I can only conclude apparently not. I see the same patterns of behavior repeated over and over again. Look at this country, we spend much of our resources on kill power. Other countries do the same. Humans have a warped set of values. Maybe it's just endemic to the species. Maybe we are just a flash in history in the big picture. I hope not, but damn, sometimes one really has to wonder, WTF.

[Initech]

148. Totally agree!

If it's guys horsing around and doing MMA type bullshit that's one thing but this kid was targeted specifically because of who he was, that's assault if I ever heard it.

[flvegan]

115. If the underlying reason the kid got beaten is because he's gay

not only should the attacking kid be arrested and expelled, his trial should include hate crime charges.

[HuckleB]

127. This is sick and sad, and too many schools do nothing to stop a culture of bullying.

It's time that this crap is dealt with fully.

[McCamy Taylor]

156. The school district can lose federal funding and the DOJ can file federal charges.