Perhaps it's time to realize we're pulling on the wrong pant leg.

[asdjrocky]

In all my adult years, virtually since I've been paying any attention at all, I've watched our representatives say one thing and do another. We work for them, we give to them our passion, our time our money and our most precious vote. Once they are in office we organize call ins, petition drives, protests all the while we write emails, letters and continue to fight the good fight.

We ask them why we are betrayed and they answer in calm, calculated complicated missives. Made to tell us nothing and to keep us wanting and hopeful. We're told to honor the possible rather than the ideal, we're told they are doing all they can for us, we're told time and time again that our time is next year. The next election, the next battle.

What has it gotten us in the last 30 years? The last 40? Is America committing the very first sin of addiction by doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting a different result? Has our culture truly be driven insane by this impossible choice between two sides of the same coin? At what point does it become an issue that as much as half of the eligible population chooses not to vote?

The scam for me has now come full circle. Bankers are killing us, yes poverty kills, and the people we elect, continue to look the other way. One man, Bernie Sanders, stands and tells the truth in what is called the Most Deliberative Body in the world and out of 100, 2 stand with him to speak some small version of the truth.

45,000 people a year are still dying because the people that own the politicians, also own us.

So, perhaps this rambling is just a way of asking questions. If not by our vote, which seems to prove the majority in this country matters little, how do we change things? How do we get our money back? How do we even consider ourselves a free Democracy when there is so clearly a ruling class, and the rest of us? Where does a peaceful revolution, a movement if you will, begin?

I am desperate for answers and there is none coming form our elected officials.

Am I advocating a third party, or not voting? No, not at all. I'm merely offering an opinion that voting is a mechanization designed to pacify the masses, and has shown to be nothing more over the last few decades.

So, I say perhaps it's time for civil disobedience. What's wrong with all of us spry painting "thieves" on the every BOA in our town. Is there some law against moving into the lobby of Goldman Sachs because you've been kicked out of your home? There probably is, but at least you'd get some press by getting arrested.

The thing is, the old way isn't working. It's broken. We need a new way.

Howard Zinn said this in 1970, and it's still true today-

And our topic is topsy-turvy: civil disobedience. As soon as you say the topic is civil disobedience, you are saying our problem is civil disobedience. That is not our problem.... Our problem is civil obedience. Our problem is the numbers of people all over the world who have obeyed the dictates of the leaders of their government and have gone to war, and millions have been killed because of this obedience. And our problem is that scene in All Quiet on the Western Front where the schoolboys march off dutifully in a line to war. Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world, in the face of poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war and cruelty. Our problem is that people are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while the grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem. We recognize this for Nazi Germany. We know that the problem there was obedience, that the people obeyed Hitler. People obeyed; that was wrong. They should have challenged, and they should have resisted; and if we were only there, we would have showed them. Even in Stalin's Russia we can understand that; people are obedient, all these herdlike people.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/CivilObedience_ZR.html

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Well said.

K&R

[Angry Dragon]

2. The ones that have power just hate to give up any power

The people that have this attitude are just weak individuals. They lack any inner soul, they lack heart, they lack as people.

[Jackpine Radical]

3. Moving up fast, Rocky.

It went from 5 to 9 recs (including mine) while I was reading it.

[asdjrocky]

5. Thanks Jack.

I'm really looking for answers, ideas, a new way. I'm going to spend the rest of the year deciding real personal philosophy and the direction I want to go in both politically and personally.

Some of the people at DU, like yourself, are well informed and quite bright and never fail to help guide me along my path.

[glitch]

4. Fraid so. K & R for

linking to Thirdworldtraveler.
linking to Zinn.
creating the visual of homesteading the Goldman Sachs lobby.
:)

[asdjrocky]

7. Thank you so much.

That speech from Zinn, from 40 years ago, keeps ringing in my head.

[glitch]

8. Howdy neighbor!

Yeah, checked your profile, cuz you linked to one of my alltime favorite sites.
:hi:
FYI WillyT is also a neighbor (Sacramento)

[asdjrocky]

11. Oh! Hey!

I lived in Sac until 07, and I love your neck of the woods.

[glitch]

13. Likewise

Big fan of Calaveras Big Trees, right up the hill from you. :)

[undeterred]

6. We keep looking for a President who is going to fix everything.

And it isn't going to happen. There is no such person. The job is too big, too impossible, thwarted by too many outside powers and influences. And so we wait another two years, or another four and keep thinking if we could just find the right man or woman, everything would be all right, but it never will be.

[truedelphi]

58. We don't expect one man to fix everything. But we do

Expect that when we have the House, the Senate, and the Oval Office, all in majority with "D's" after their name, to have more than three people in the Sanders initiated filibuster.

We expect to have a President who uses his bully pulpit in a very strong way, and not to go around the nation ENABLING the damn Tea Baggers by allowing them their free for all town councils. Because Mr Obama accepted the out of control spectacles the Tea Partiers turned the town hall meetings into, much damage was done.

He's President, and many Presidents effectively have used the bully pulpit. But Obama didn't use his vocal chords to insist that the Tea Baggers respect the usual methods of allowing for sane discussion (That is, to have sign in charts designating when people are to speak while in chambers?)

He didn't have ANY strong speaking points on the Health Care Reform Act, as he kept inferring that would violate the separation of powers. When in mid August 2009, a young college student asked him about the public option, Obama backed away from it, saying "The Public Option is only one tool among many other tools. And no one even knows if the Public Option will be in the final bill."

I didn't expect Obama to succeed at everything right off the bat. But I did expect him to fight a round or two before conceding.

or maybe it wasn't concession. Maybe it was all just Kabuki Theater, so he and Rahm could give the Upper One Percent everything that they wanted.

[Cherchez la Femme]

78. We do expect him to

try and to keep the promises he's made instead of surrenduring before he's even begun
AND constantly doing the exact opposite!

[defendandprotect]

84. I don't think that's what most of us have been doing ... most count on a party ....

it's platform -- but I think we can all see that the Demcoratic Platform is

constantly being watered down -- and the leadership selected by the party

more and more watered down --

I think most of us feel we are UNITING together with a party and its members

who respect the same calls for justice that we do ---

What we have have undoubtedly learned in this last election cycle is absolute

confirmation that we are being given leadership and parties which TPB have

absolute influence over -- for their benefit -- not ours.

[grahamhgreen]

118. He is merely expected to represent the will of those who elected him, not corporate special interest

[undeterred]

119. But the corporate special interests gave him a lot of money

and that seems to matter more than the actual votes.

[Starry Messenger]

9. k&r

[leftstreet]

10. K&R

[RegieRocker]

12. K & R

[bigtree]

14. even that one man eventually moved out of the way

I understand the frustration with politicians and with the political system. The heart of the problem is that there are competing interests and motivations in our political system which can effectively derail any well-meaning legislator we manage to elect and stifle their campaign of reform.

Our political system operates by building coalitions. It's not realistic to expect every legislator to get their own perfect way. In order to advance legislation they need to organize a sufficient amount of votes. That's going to be the bottom-line, sticking-point of almost every bill that manages to come to the President's desk for signature. To expect otherwise is to ignore the myriads of competing interests and motivations in our national legislature which come from many diverse communities around the country with many disparate perspectives and needs.

Our democracy provides an arena for our legislators to either argue or compromise. There is very little room for individual legislators to dictate. The very idea of government is to reconcile these different points of view and the different motivations into action or law. The very idea of our government of the people is an appeal to compromise.

I see what you're getting at, though. You want to agitate from the outside to affect the decisions made by the folks we send there. That's as it should be. Nothing good occurs in a vacuum of indifference and power doesn't move off of the dominion it assumes willingly.

Two notions I have about that agitation. For any movement to succeed it must have a legislative goal and it must have a means to achieve that legislative goal if it intends to transform its agitation into action.

That means that there really isn't any shortcut or magic formula for progressive change which can bypass building coalitions, organizing, advocating, recruiting, and voting. It's not as if there isn't that desire and will, it's just not as easy or assured as it might sound. Nothing in our political system is assured. Vigilance is the key to success. Remaining engaged and involved in each and every instigation of our democracy.

[asdjrocky]

15. Classic.

We ask them why we are betrayed and they answer in calm, calculated complicated missives. Made to tell us nothing and to keep us wanting and hopeful.

[bigtree]

16. I'm not a politician

. . . just a man with a perspective. Sorry to see you so dismissive of what I offered. Agitate, by all means. I'll be anxious to see to what end and wouldn't discourage you in any way shape or form. That's not to say that I'm going to just turn my back on what's actually occurring in our political system and agitate.

[Cherchez la Femme]

83. Yes, as we wimmin have been told for decades:

Good girls don't make waves!

So nice for you to join the (archaic) club! You'll find only Dominionists and of those who aren't, you'll find plain old Old Testament literalist Reich-wing born-agains (with a good smattering of supremacists thrown in) so don't expect the conversation to turn to science, but trashing it, how inferior 'colored' are and how to be subservient to your own personal God: your husband.

Enjoy! :hi:

[defendandprotect]

108. Exactly ....

:)

[EFerrari]

17. Or as Frank Lopez says at the top of his show,

good morning, slaves!

:)

[bigtree]

18. you've got to be goddamn kidding

. . . in response to what I wrote? Unbelievable.

Slaves? What kind of asinine political tactic is that to call people who disagree with your political strategy 'slaves'?

[EFerrari]

21. No, bigtree, not you.

That show is about protest and that's how Lopez opens it. And it's inclusive and affectionate, not exclusive and fingerpointing.

[liberation]

66. I like your style..

;-)

[Cherchez la Femme]

86. Yep

s/he's one of my favorite posters to read -- always cogent, making great points...

But ssshhhh.... now s/he'll get a big head! :)

[Smashcut]

34. The president sets the agenda.

Sorry, we're not buying that literally every decision made in government is the end result of a million collective decisions. There may be some haggling that goes on but the core policies originate somewhere and each branch of government (including the executive) is given exclusive powers.

[bigtree]

37. that may well be the ambition of the Executive

. . .and he may well find a cooperative party willing to translate his proposals into legislation and advance it. But, there's nothing institutional or constitutional that gives the President the prerogative over money and financial matters. Congress may well want to hide behind the President and claim he made them do this or that, but why allow them that dishonesty?

What purpose does it serve to acquiesce to a compliant Congress bending to an overreaching Executive? I saw where the congressfolk protested the federal wage increase freeze and then voted for the spending bill anyway. The President isn't any more out of hand than Congress allows.

[defendandprotect]

109. Because the same $$ interests put our elected officials in place ...

reality isn't being hidden from Congress -- it's being hidden from the public!

No honest debate and discussion is to be heard in Congress now -- it's rare --

especially about our economy and economic policy -- economic justice.

When was the last debate you heard on Obama INCREASING the amounts being given to

"faith-based" religions -- something which W began ...

coincidently just when the Catholic Church really needed to get their hands on some

money for their pedophile laws suits!!

[ProudDad]

130. It's Kabuki Theater

"Inside Baseball"...

Put on to fool the masses into thinking that they have ANY kind of control over the "government"...

When it's the corpos who pull the strings and make us all dance...

Anyone thinking that there's anything APPROACHING a "democracy" at the Federal level is delusional...

[Cherchez la Femme]

88. Fer real!

Our Congress is FAR from the Borg collective, in fact I'd say the exact opposite! :rofl:

In fact, our Congresscritters are just about identical to the old (first) Star Trek, to wit the episode where one of Gorshin's characters was colored white on the right side and black and the left
and his other character was colored black on the right side and white on the left!
And they each thought they were so different and the others were inferior!

Other than ironically, & in a very big sense, that's really not to laugh at because the stupid 'reasoning' behind disparagement of The Other is all too true.

And it's true for every color or race or religion on earth -- if they're in a highly identifiable group it seems to be human nature to abhor anyone not like you.

[RaleighNCDUer]

67. blah blah blah

"We ask them why we are betrayed and they answer in calm, calculated complicated missives. Made to tell us nothing and to keep us wanting and hopeful. We're told to honor the possible rather than the ideal, we're told they are doing all they can for us, we're told time and time again that our time is next year. The next election, the next battle."

YOU are part of the problem, not the solution.

Keep on apologizing for the powers that be. It's been working so well.

[Cherchez la Femme]

91. How, exactly is s/he "part of the problem"?

How, exactly, is making calls based on many instances of observed behavior NOT being part of the solution
--if the observations lead to better behaviors?

Please do tell, I'd love to hear!

[defendandprotect]

106. As the OP is making clear, many Americans are way beyond frustration ....

There is way more than a "frustration with politicians and the system" ....

And, the "heart of the problem" is way beyond "competing interests/motivations" or
any political being "derailed" and all of this ...


Our political system operates by building coalitions. It's not realistic to expect every legislator to get their own perfect way. In order to advance legislation they need to organize a sufficient amount of votes. That's going to be the bottom-line, sticking-point of almost every bill that manages to come to the President's desk for signature. To expect otherwise is to ignore the myriads of competing interests and motivations in our national legislature which come from many diverse communities around the country with many disparate perspectives and needs.

Our democracy provides an arena for our legislators to either argue or compromise. There is very little room for individual legislators to dictate. The very idea of government is to reconcile these different points of view and the different motivations into action or law. The very idea of our government of the people is an appeal to compromise.

Not only is it naive thinking in 2010 but it even fails to acknowledge the spirit of the OP

and Howard Zinn's comments -- and even current discourse and opinion on DU.

You seem to actually still believe that we have a democracy - :eyes:

Re this ....

I see what you're getting at, though. You want to agitate from the outside to affect the decisions made by the folks we send there. That's as it should be. Nothing good occurs in a vacuum of indifference and power doesn't move off of the dominion it assumes willingly.

Two notions I have about that agitation. For any movement to succeed it must have a legislative goal and it must have a means to achieve that legislative goal if it intends to transform its agitation into action.

That means that there really isn't any shortcut or magic formula for progressive change which can bypass building coalitions, organizing, advocating, recruiting, and voting. It's not as if there isn't that desire and will, it's just not as easy or assured as it might sound. Nothing in our political system is assured. Vigilance is the key to success. Remaining engaged and involved in each and every instigation of our democracy.


Nothing that is taught in our schools originates in our schools --

not language, not mathematics, not law -- nothing.

Nor do our schools teach revolution which many of us here feel we need to begin

thinking about. Except for Howard Zinn's classes, of course! And, likely, Chomsky's.

I doubt that anyone trying to free themselves from any form of slavery or oppression

ever bothered to first write legislation! Nor am I aware of any political movement

which does not intend their actions to result in reformative actions.

What you are advocating in your final paragraph has already been done -- over decades --

with "voting" now in more question than ever given that we are still doing it on computers

which are hackable.

Our government is in the hands of elites who have assassinated our leadership and stolen

our "people's" government and are on their way to taking total control of the nation's wealth

and natural resources -- while continuing their abuse and exploitation of nature and humanity.

Any new leadership that arises is pre-bribed and pre-owned.

That's pretty much where we are now.

[OwnedByFerrets]

107. Pure bull shit. The time for that is forever gone.

[ProudDad]

128. As long as the "electoral" system remains as corrupted as USAmerica's is...

Then those laudable enterprises "building coalitions, organizing, advocating, <and> recruiting" will forever be wasted if directed to "elect" one member of the Duopoly instead of another...

Only the corrupted and money sodden can make it through the corporate controlled and funded meat grinder that is the "process" here in the Empire...

I would suggest "building coalitions, organizing, advocating, <and> recruiting" LOCALLY to take over your local governmental structures then become another autonomous bio-region preparing to survive this Long Emergency...

The USAmerican government was designed by, for and of the Rich and powerful to increase their riches and power...And it works...

[mitchtv]

19. Flash mobs, grafitti jamborees, sit ins

the works; target GOP

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

22. illusion of democracy?

There's nothing really progressive about subverting the democratic process. You can't reinvent our democracy to suit whatever policy you advocate. You can't have what you want either just because you demand it. That's what our democracy defends against. We make decisions as a nation of individuals. Anarchy or some fantastical boycott of voting has to lead to SOMETHING to replace the democracy you so scorn. God knows what shape and form that would take.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

24. you evidently have some example of your fantastical assault on democracy

. . . that you can share with us. It isn't as if yours is a new notion. A voting boycott. Novel. Hard to imagine, though, that the opposition will accede to all of that (if it occurs). I'd think they'd welcome you staying home while they vote their candidates in.

[Cherchez la Femme]

93. But Bigtree,

why are you accusing 'the little man', the powerless little man, of subverting the democratic process when it is done egregiously and far more with much further reaching consequences by our elected officials, SCOTUS, et.al.?


And BTW, Thomas Jefferson was very much sold on including in the Constitution the complete freedom of The People changing their government, whenever they wanted, as they wished -- even to tearing it down to ground level, not one stone upon stone as it were, and rebuilding it to the current populace's favor.

Now THAT'S Freedom
and, it's the freedom that our founding fathers themselves enjoyed!

[defendandprotect]

110. More realistically, I think you mean our "democracy" ....

we had actually never truly achieved it --

and it has been greatly undermined since the beginnings of the nation --

In fact, most any Repug will tell you that it was never intended to be

a democracy, but rather a republic.

That debate continues on --

[Desertrose]

25. Your last 4 paragraphs are exactly right.....

"By regarding society from a class perspective, one can see through the machinations of the rich. Marx explained that "in any epoch, the ideas of the ruling class are the ruling ideas..." The ruling class insists on control. Hence it demands unchallenged domination of the political system. It acts to mold all social institutions -- including schools, media, & political parties -- to serve its own interests. Any group that might oppose it (such as militant labor unions, leftist intellectuals, antiwar types, consumer & environmental advocates, etc) it tries to marginalize, coopt or destroy.

The political system that best serves the interests of the rich is the one that A) obediently does their bidding, while B) posing theatrically as a "democracy," in a convincing enough way so that most people don't catch on that they're simply being played. Objective "B" serves to greatly reduce resistance.

The illusion of "choice" and "free elections" is very important to the ruling class. They recognize that this pretty illusion makes their job much easier, so they want to preserve it. The rituals of campaigns & elections function to con most of the population into believing that "they're free." Most people will never clearly recognize that the choice they're being offered is a highly contrived one. They're being forced to choose between 2 parties which are united against them, rigged to serve the interests of their oppressors.
"

:hi:Welcome to DU

[Cherchez la Femme]

97. That sounds like a very interesting

and perceptive post -- can you please PM me as to why it was deleted? Thanks! :hi:


on edit: Whoops! Looks like s/he got a special DU delivery!!!

[defendandprotect]

112. Thanks ....

Don't know what preceded those paragraphs, but what's left is very interesting!

:)

[asdjrocky]

28. Welcome to DU.

And I welcome the opportunity to discuss, and learn more from you.

[RaleighNCDUer]

69. I wish I could - he was deleted before I got here.

Could you give the gist of what he was saying?

[asdjrocky]

89. Post #25 sums it up.

I really don't understand why he was deleted. Surprising.

[myrna minx]

26. K&R n.t

[OneGrassRoot]

27. K&R n/t

[tavalon]

29. You said it better than I

Thank you.

[snot]

30. Well said. If even 10% of air passengers refused to submit to either screenings or pat-downs,

that whole approach would have been abandoned within a few days.

[defendandprotect]

113. Agree -- and shocking that so many parents are permitting it -- !!

and all because of the laughable "underwear" bomber --

which moved Chertoff's scanning company into a contract with the government?

Chertoff's company was going no where for 6 years, despite heavy lobbying of

Congress --

.... until the mysterious underwear bomber -- which by any measure looked highly

suspicious.

And the contracts for Chertoff were paid for out of the stimulus!!

Ah, how conveniently these things work out!!


:evilgrin:"

[DirkGently]

31. Well said. Blame the "war on terror" for squelching dissent. Protestors = "enemy combatants."

[defendandprotect]

114. True ... and all of this hides behind war ... that's how they get so much done!!

[MissDeeds]

32. K&R

[caseymoz]

33. I agree with you. nt

[Wednesdays]

35. Spray paint "thieves" on every BOA...

and "Terrorists Run Rampant" headlines will be broadcast so fast, it'll make your head spin. On ALL corporate media, not just Faux Noise.

I'm hardly suggesting we do nothing...yes, something has to be done. I'm just pointing out what we're up against.

[asdjrocky]

42. I don't know.

That kind of thinking can lead to spiritual paralysis.

[Plucketeer]

47. HOW DID....

Michael Moore get away with stringing "CRIME SCENE" tape around the towers of Wall Street???

[RaleighNCDUer]

71. Well, it probably helped having a film crew with him. nt

[pansypoo53219]

36. the corporate media and campaign BRIBES

we have to cut the cord between corporate bribes and the democrat party. andwe must manage the gnews better. keep it simple and pithy for teevee.

[defendandprotect]

115. Agree ... and a funny thing happened before this last election ....

Pelosi came out a little while before and made an attempt at suggesting

the Repugs had "poo on their shoe" ..... alluding to their taking corporate money!!


Now, of course, this was nuts because the Dems have also been taking corporate money --

and even sillier given "poo on their shoe" -- !!

But this slight and late attempt was there somewhere trying to surface --


Election result -- $4 billion -- the most expensive Election Day yet -- and

Demcorats got $1 for ever $7 the Repugs got from corporations!!

So --- it would seem rather obivous that they should have figured out long ago that

they had to control corporate money and do something about it --

Now with the SC in it up to their eyeballs, it may be too late for a long time.

Thom Hartmann has an interesting group -- Free Speech TV -- fighting for a Constitutional

Amendment to BAN corporate personhood -- !! Not fighting the SC -- just permanently making

clear people are only as outlined by the Constutiton -- not corporations.

[me b zola]

38. K&R

[bobbolink]

39. You are now where I came to a couple of years ago. Politics is the "wrong pant leg", as you put it

What is desparately needed is to find ways to converse with those who are not "tuned in" to politics.

Work like hell to create the tipping point by awareness.

When that tipping point is reached, the action will present itself.

This is NOT what people want to hear.... it isn't sexy.

BUT, do we have the time left to keep fiddling around and "hoping" for "change"?

[asdjrocky]

46. Hey Bobbo.

Wish I had an answer for your question there or the questions you have further down. I have none, but I do agree with your "tipping point."

[bobbolink]

53. You don't know what our goals are?

Well, then we are nowhere near discussing how to reach them, are we?

The first step is knowing what you want to accomplish.

I suggest starting a thread on that.

THEN there is a direction to go.

[asdjrocky]

57. No, I don't know what "our" goals are.

Honestly, I mostly ask questions to seek knowledge. If not for my lack of knowledge, what use are questions?

I have personal goals, I have wishful goals, and wistful goals, but as for direction? I'm a farmer who likes to read and pays a modicum of attention, I am not the direction maker.

My thread was only to ask questions, and to seek answers and, or discussion.

[bobbolink]

60. I read that your thread was about "change" and specifically, civil disobedience.

To pursue either of those, knowing what we want to accomplish is the first step.

Since you put "our" in quotes, I guess that means you don't see it as we being in this together... or maybe that was directed at me.

I hear your anger.

What I am trying to get across is that we no longer have time to fool around with things that aren't working. We have done the protests, and the big marches already... it didn't accomplish anything.

Unless what we want to accomplish is catharsis. Catharsis is good... and necessary. But doing a public catharsis.. especially ones that cost a lot of money, can be counter-productive.

Sorry it made you angry.... I get it, and will abstain from these threads, and prompting people to actually consider new directions and where to start seem to make people angry, and that is not my intention.

I am just sad that it looks like not only will OBama be more of the same, but so will our responses.

:(

[asdjrocky]

64. Not directed at you at all Bobbo, I think of you as a friend.

I'm just not even sure who "we" as a group is any longer. And no, you did not make me angry, and I do apologize if I came off that way, perhaps it's frustration showing and it is not directed at you.

Again, if I had anything more than questions that seem to lead only to more questions, I'd have at least an answer or two.

[avaistheone1]

40. Amazing post asdrocky.

I agree.

I think people want to "be good". "Being good" is often connected with obeying.

Great post man, you really illustrated why obeying is not our interest in all cases.

:kick:

k&r

[bobbolink]

41. I ask you to consider this.... what is our goal? What do we want to accomplish?

Do we have enough people to accomplish it now, and if not, how do we convert enough people to do what we need to do?

Is mass civil disobedience the way *at this point* to convert those people?

Are there other ways?

[Plucketeer]

43. My thoujghs EXACTLY, Rock!

I and another DUer were just having this same conversation. WHEN and HOW do we stand up in righteous indignation, and proclaim that we've had ENOUGH of paying and praying for someone with OUR interests and aims at heart?????????? HOW to pull it off without being hassled by the constabulary - denounced/marginalized by those we elected - or branded as kooks by the media.

But CERTAINLY - you're as right as rain that what we've got now is NOT working for ANYONE but the holders of the national purse.




GOP PLAN FOR THE "MIDDLE CLASS"

[Plucketeer]

49. I'd like to add......

...initially, I was wrankled when I heard of Assange's assualt on US secrets. But as I thought about it, more and more - I found myself fighting back the indoctrination I've been unwittingly saturated with thru the years.I said to myself - I said: "Hey dummy! YOU and everyone else in this country have PAID for all that "stuff". Would you BUY a car you could never see or drive? Would you dutifully pay for a gourmet meal you'd never get to taste? Wake the fuck up, dummy!"

Should there be "State Secrets"? Yeah. But said secrets should be afforded such status on the strenght of civilian review board's reviews - not someone intimately associated with the subject.

[asdjrocky]

52. Oh Pluck, so good to see you.

You words, in both posts, sing the truth. Sometimes I wonder if the system is designed to make sure we don't notice it's completely fixed until we're too old to do a lot about it, lol.

[Plucketeer]

139. Hey Rock - we know where we stand, eh?

A couple of ex-warriors for another sabatoged carrot on a stick! I must say, as much as I hatge to, I have had the momentary and sadly comforting realization that I'm in the final quarter of my life. It's really sad to find solace in that you have a limited time to put up with the developing shitty situation. Really sad.

My wife's a decade younger than I am. She's a diehard "glass half empty" sort. I'm pretty much the opposite. Naturally, she's as outragted as I am as to what's going on before our very eyes. She's lucky to still have her job as a teacher, and I remind her of that fact often, when some little thing irritates her. I remind her how lucky we are in that we can eat well, have multiple cars, a comfy (albeit very modest) home and pets. We even manage to give stuff to our local food banks. I'm betting the majority of us DUers can remember a time when our strata was considered solidly middle class. No more tho. And it's only getting worse.

I send letters and postcards to friend and foe in DC, EVERY DAY. I have to wonder how many times my anguished messages ever fall under the eyes of those to which they're addressed. Maybe the best I get from those missives is the idea that they MIGHT register with soneone in those supposedly hallowed halls. Of course, I'm doing my part to keep the Post Office going too!
E-mails, E-petitions - I send them all. I even call when some vote I feel strongly about is pending. But AM I getting anything from all this? I have my doubts. Of course, my mommy raised me to be obedient. Don't make a scene! Don't make a "spectacle" of yourself.


GOP PLAN FOR MIDDLE CLASS

[liberation]

70. I agree with you for the most part...

... I am however of the opinion that if a public institution needs to have "secrets" there are some systemic problems with that public institution.

Most of us have been indoctrinated into believing that a certain level of secrecy is necessary. But the only justifications I have heard for governmental secrets usually revolve around projections by the people making a case for them. That's not good enough for me.

Having the capability to maintain secrets implies that supposedly government institutions are not accountable to their own citizens, and thus it violates the very definition of what "public institution" means.

[defendandprotect]

116. Most of this hides behind the cover of "war' ....

war enables so much of what happened under W --

Patriot Act/Homeland Insecurity -- on and on --

now to the point where FBI is seeking to arrest and label anti-war activists

as "terrorists" so the ycan get a piece of the Homeland Security Pie -- $$$$



:)

[Plucketeer]

132. My idea of permissable secrets

would be things like plans for nuclear weapons - not that that's such a well kept thing nowdays anyway - but it's an easy reference point for the point I'm trying to make.

[DeSwiss]

44. K&R

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

[BobTheSubgenius]

45. Plausible deniability seems to be their goal.

"Aim low. You won't be disappointed as often." Or, in this case, seems to be what enough people will accept.

[TBF]

48. As Emma said "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal" -

Solidarity, brother.

[asdjrocky]

50. "If the gods had meant us to vote, they would have given us candidates."

-Howard Zinn

I like your quote too.

[lunatica]

51. If we want to win we need to see where their power comes from

It's as simple as that. We find out where they get their power and we do something about it. It's the First Rule in any confrontation, from outright war to standing up to a bully in the playground. We then take their power away.

It's obvious that we've been sold a crap pile of goods about how it's we the people who have the power. It's repeated every two years and drummed into us with glamor and glitz and patriotic music and speeches. And we keep falling for it because we believe that this time it'll be different. But it hasn't been different, except that when the Democrats get power they're a lot nicer and benign. They fix up a few social services and slap on a few band aids which are then ripped off as soon as Republicans take power. They're always playing the good cop/bad cop game with us.

And it isn't that we're too stupid to get it. They know full well that most Americans have lives and jobs and families and a daily life they live while trusting the people they elect to take care of the country. Those of us who pay attention might see what's going on behind their pretty words and the media's spin but without complete corroboration we mostly bicker with each other about it, but most people don't. They rely on the media to keep them informed, never suspecting that the media is nothing more than propaganda to keep us shuffling along in our dream world. A dream world they fully inflate with illusion of pseudo American normalcy with an entertainment industry that covers talking heads like Limbaugh and Beck as well as Dancing With The Stars and sitcoms and 'reality' shows. They mesmerize us with the Housewives of whatever rich neighborhood we'd all like to live in and they turn up the volume on their ads depicting the lifestyles they're selling us to make us think it's what we want.

[asdjrocky]

61. Very well put.

And very well written, thanks for the words.

[defendandprotect]

117. Terrific post -- K&R for it .....

If we want to win we need to see where their power comes from


and absolutely LOVE that question ....


What do you think is the answer -- ?

And how we're all giving this some thought ...


:)



Patriarchy -- and its underpinning =

Organized Patriarchal Religion -- and its economic system =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinity


Certainly hierarchies are one way that we are controlled --

[democrank]

54. Couple things to consider...

We should figure out a way to:
Get our message out
Start a campaign for public financing of elections
Put our "leaders" on notice that, no change= no contribution, no vote...no kidding
Put corporate media on notice that no truth= we hit the OFF button

We could start tomorrow by refusing to devote any more time and energy to the likes of Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, etc. Don`t read about them, talk about them, write about them, post about them. Don`t turn on Fox News. Use that energy to write/communicate about Progressive principles and find other like-minded folks to team up with, like Democracy for America, MoveOn.

Help destroy the notion, once and for all, that Progressives have no alternatives. We do. We have our votes and free will.

Please don`t tell me none of this is possible. I know better. I marched against the Vietnam War. We found a way back then without computers and cell phones and we can do it again.

[bobbolink]

90. Back then, we figured out what it was we wanted to accomplish.

We knew we had to convert the majority of people to see the war as evil and wrong.

Yes, we marched,.... but we also had Teach-Ins, underground papers that reached the masses, and other ways we used to get people to hear and take heed.

Now, we just want to call people "stupid" and think that is going to change the nation.

It never will.

Its all about changing hearts and minds.

And if we had the SMARTS to begin that with poor people, we would have a force to be reckoned with!

[maryf]

126. underground papers...

that's one really good goal to work on, been talking to some others about that...

[defendandprotect]

120. Interesting post ....

Start a campaign for public financing of elections

.Election Reform: Voluntary Public Campaign Funding ...
Related Websites and Organizations; Power to the Voters, Not Special ... the reform in 2005, so has not yet used it in an election. To push for public funding of campaigns ...
progressivemaryland.org/page.php?id=153 - Cached

Public Campaign | Clean Money Clean Elections
Public Campaign is a non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to sweeping reform that aims to ... who your state contact is and help us pass Clean Elections ...
www.publicampaign.org - Cached

There's a page full of them here ...

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AsBEygwjhSSEKUjl8NzUasybvZx4?p=Public+Funding+of+Elections+-+campaigns%2C+organizations&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-yie8

But I've never given money or support to any of them --
Seems that I recall CLEAN MONEY being successful in a number of states?

Otoh, Obama raised a fortune from voters via the internet -- think something
more than $850 million/? --
and plus as I recall it DU'ers gave him on top of that another $280,000!!
What did Obama do after that -- ? He announced he was going to take corporate money!


Put corporate media on notice that no truth= we hit the OFF button

Fortunately, I think that is happening to some degree -- O'Reilly, Beck and other
right wingers' ratings are way down -- KO and Maddow way up.

Agree re Palin and others -- I really dislike it when I tune into KO and he's telling
me all about Palin's day! Or something about Newt Gingrich! Yikes!

There was quite some courage on display among those who tried to tell Americans about
the VN War and marched -- and told truths.
And Nixon was sending fake construction workers, fake telephone calls, faked telegrams,
to create a fake impression of who did and who didn't support the war.
And just at the point where the Nixon administration seemed to be about to be knocked
over by it -- and parents seemed to be about to join the kids on the streets ---
instead kids were being killed by National Guardmen at their colleges.

The right wing can only rise via violence -- stolen elections -- and lies.

It's their first and final card --

:)

[ProudDad]

133. You know, we HAVE public financing of state elections

here in the New Mississippi...

We worked mightily on our friend's independent campaign for State Senate. We qualified for and received the same Clean Elections money as the Dem incumbent. There were also a privately funded Independent and a republican (trying to grab the extra-safe seat in a four-way race)...

Our guy consistently kicked-ass in the debates, had the best platform and was articulate in expressing it.

And we were COMPLETELY CENSORED by the media. We were mainly ignored and when not ignored were marginalized and our program, our PLATFORM was NEVER mentioned...

So, folks, the fucking fix is in -- if you aren't Dem or puke, you're not going to be heard even with public financing...

Here's our platform...tell ME what's wrong with it...?

http://daveforarizona.org/html/summary.html
http://daveforarizona.org/html/water.html
http://daveforarizona.org/html/jobs_economic_security.html
http://daveforarizona.org/html/education.html
http://daveforarizona.org/html/border_issues.html
http://daveforarizona.org/html/sustainability.html

Not a BREATH of any of this got to the M$M in this town...

[Goldstein1984]

55. Thanks, Rocky. Very well written.

Voting has become a meaningless act. A technicality through which all candidates must pass to be elected before serving their true constituents--$$$$.

Therefore, refusing to vote is merely refusing to engage in a meaningless act. And perhaps, when enough people reject the last vestige of the illusion of democracy, those who are "elected by the people" will have no claim to legitimacy.

It may be that those who refuse to vote cast the most significant vote--a vote of no confidence. A vote refusing to legitimize an illegitimate government.

I'm afraid I'm coming to the same conclusion as George Carlin--voting is for suckers.

Spray paint probably sends a stronger message.

[asdjrocky]

62. It's funny, actually it's not, that George Carlin-

should be the man that had all the answers. I do find myself going back, and back again to George.

"They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it." -GC

[Goldstein1984]

72. I don't know anybody who believes it anymore.

[defendandprotect]

121. Think liberals/progressives have to remain a voting BLOC .....

and there is the gist of it --

it has to be by agreement that we ALL come out to vote --

or we ALL stay home and not vote --


Otherwise, I'm not generally in favor of telling people not to vote --

I'd rather see them forced to have to overcome my vote in one way or another.


But, again, if by previous agreement everyone does the same thing --

A HUGE BLOCK OF VOTERS TOGETHER ... that's different!

And 28 million expected voters didn't come out this Election Day!


We've always had huge numbers not voting -- but corporate-press doesn't cover it --

goes unacknowledged!



:)

[Sherman A1]

56. My only thought is to divert my efforts & meager

campaign contributions to the Bernie Sanders & DK's of this world.

I can't think of anything else to do.

I will vote in 2012, but will probably skip a few offices at the top of the ticket and concentrate on state & local issues.

[TatonkaJames]

59. I compare it to white socks on Christmas or Birthdays....

Just like you see in real life and the movies when the father is handed his gift and it
falls limp in his hand, telling the audience and us in real life that it's the same old
pair of white socks.
No matter how much WE give to the government, they keep promising a brighter future and
all they ever deliver are white socks every year for the past 30 - 40 years that I've been
paying attention.

[asdjrocky]

65. I love that analogy.

Really I do. You made me snicker a bit.

[Quixote1818]

63. K and R

[TomClash]

68. What do you do when they make you obey? nt

[PhillySane]

73. Time To Act Up

I think it is time to take this to the next level. During the civil rights movement and the Viet Nam war, those who were being told that voting actually meant something realized it truly didn't. The only way to bring about effective change was to demonstrate, make noise, march, lay down in the middle of the street, cause disruptions in everyday life so as to jolt the common man into realizing that we cannot depend on business as usual, we must disrupt the system. We must be heard. What they both shared was a unified front, and a clear vision of the outcome they wanted. We must clarify our goals. Who is the enemy? What do we want to change? What is our end result?

[asdjrocky]

85. Welcome to DU.

It is too bad, the very medium that informs us, the internet, also keeps us in our homes, in many ways isolated in a country too big.

[saracat]

74. Well done Rocky!

[Ninga]

75. Hey rocky, I'm so in your corner. I wistfully remember the days from late 2007 and

very early 2008 when we thought there might be a glimmer of hope toward an earnest dialog about eradicating poverty. Sadly it was short lived and flamed out.

Re the political process, many citizens of our country do not participate in the process, don't think for themselves, don't want to talk about it, and let others (Fox) do their thinking for them.

The political hierarchy operates under this premise and draws success after success with each and every election, which pits neighbor to neighbor and leaves citizens more and more disenchanted and disgusted.

Sadly, I can not picture any scenario in which today's average American would be willing to sacrifice any measure of their comfort to engage in any form of political protest on behalf of their fellow Americans, nor the quality of life.

Pity.

[asdjrocky]

80. Good to see you Ninga.

Sadly, I believe you last two sentences sums it up nicely.

[Cherchez la Femme]

76. Great post! K & R

Just wondering where you 45K dying a year comes from -- actually, who does it include? Both those without adequate Health Care *and* our people who died & are dying over in other countries (so many now it's hard to keep count -- Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, &etc. &etc. &etc...

Heartbreaking.


And thank you for that Zinn quote! Saving it to my hard disk as we speak! :hug:

[asdjrocky]

79. Here's the link for the Harvard Study on health care-

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/

I should have included it.

And yeah on Howard Zinn, we need his truth today, more than ever.

[GeorgeGist]

77. The Master Class has spoken.

The Slave Class has listened.

[Agony]

81. "The problem is civil obedience" unlike Bradley Manning, who did the right thing

and for this reason he deserves our support if in fact he is one who stood up.

[asdjrocky]

87. Bradley Manning is my kind of hero.

Thanks for the mention.

[movingviolation]

82. God!!! This Sooo much!

I feel like this too. What do we do? I'm so tired of being played like this.

[asdjrocky]

96. I wish I had answers movingviolation.

I can, however, offer you a welcome to DU! :hi:

[movingviolation]

142. Thanks for the welcome!

I've been lurking for years now, don't know why it took me so long to join the fray!
:hi:

[defendandprotect]

92. Thanks for Howard Zinn -- familiar with a lot of his articles, and observations ....

but not toally familiar with this one and read all of it --

This can't be missed ....

And in this time, which may be more critical than the Revolution or the Civil War, the problems are so horrendous as to require us to go outside the legal framework in order to make a statement, to resist, to begin to establish the kind of institutions and relationships which a decent society should have.


--- No, not just tearing things down; building things up.


Howard Zinn makes clear how serious things are "in this time" -- "so horrendous" --

"a time which may be more critical than the Revolution or the Civil War" ---


What we are trying to do, I assume, is really to get back to the principles and aims and spirit of the Declaration of Independence. This spirit is resistance to illegitimate authority and to forces that deprive people of their life and liberty and right to pursue happiness, and therefore under these conditions, it urges the right to alter or abolish their current form of government-and the stress had been on abolish. But to establish the principles of the Declaration of Independence, we are going to need to go outside the law, to stop obeying the laws that demand killing or that allocate wealth the way it has been done, or that put people in jail for petty technical offenses and keep other people out of jail for enormous crimes. My hope is that this kind of spirit will take place not just in this country but in other countries because they all need it. People in all countries need the spirit of disobedience to the state, which is not a metaphysical thing but a thing of force and wealth. And we need a kind of declaration of interdependence among people in all countries of the world who are striving for the same thing.


Agree -- the spirit of the Declaration of Independence is where we need to be --

and I trust it is obvious to all of us that while the last go-around with fascism came close

to encompassing and overtaking much of the world, this time around, they seem to be whittling

us all down at one time -- leaving no one standing to save anyone else.


One of the things I was thinking about today was that the NEW DEAL provided something of

economic democracy for many Americans -- not all, certainly. But it was a beginning.

Many were excluded. But it did give some Americans an opportunity to begin to address

the injustices that those described as "minorities" were suffering -- African Americans, Jews,

Women. There was an upward spiral at the time which provided for this progress.

By the time of the 1960's Youth Revolution, it was clear to Elites that they had to curtail

the benefits which were enabling Americans to begin to consider political issues, civil rights,

hierarchies, war, man's inhumanity to man. Destruction of the NEW DEAL is a priority for Elites.

The ride down will be much less pleasant than the ride up.

We have not only ourselves to try to save, but our planet, as well.

Just want to add that I also LOVED and still LOVE Howard Zinn for his opposition to violence.


Thanks for the post -- :)

[asdjrocky]

94. Well, thank you back for that post.

A funny bit of history on that Zinn speech, I find this, in many ways, the best part-

By the latter part of May, 1970, feelings about the war in Vietnam had become almost unbearably intense. In Boston, about a hundred of us decided to sit down at the Boston Army Base and block the road used by buses carrying draftees off to military duty. We were not so daft that we thought we were stopping the flow of soldiers to Vietnam; it was a symbolic act, a statement, a piece of guerrilla the after. We were all arrested and charged, in the quaint language of an old statute, with "sauntering and loitering" in such a way as to obstruct traffic. Eight of us refused to plead guilty, insisting on trial by jury, hoping we could persuade the members of the jury that ours was a justified act of civil disobedience. We did not persuade them. We were found guilty, chose jail instead of paying a fine, but the judge, apparently reluctant to have us in jail, gave us forty-eight hours to change our minds, after which we should show up in court to either pay the fine or be jailed. In the meantime, I had been invited to go to Johns Hopkins University to debate with the philosopher Charles Frankel on the issue of civil disobedience. I decided it would be hypocritical for me, an advocate of civil disobedience, to submit dutifully to the court and thereby skip out on an opportunity to speak to hundreds of students about civil disobedience. So, on the day I was supposed to show up in court in Boston I flew to Baltimore and that evening debated with Charles Frankel. Returning to Boston I decided to meet my morning class, but two detectives were waiting for me, and I was hustled before the court and then spent a couple of days in jail. What follows is the transcript of my opening statement in the debate at Johns Hopkins. It was included in a book published by Johns Hopkins Press in 1972, entitled Violence: The Crisis of American Confidence.

He was being a pure and shinning example of civil disobedience while giving a speech on the same. Just perfect.

[defendandprotect]

127. Thank you --

:)

One of the posters commenting on your thread made this observation ...

If we want to win we need to see where their power comes from


I think it is a riveting question ---

What would you respond?

I'm baffled -- thoughts of Nazi-Germany running thru my mind -- and

of course, the usual hierarchies of power by which they control us.

But the answers I'm coming up with aren't as riveting as the question

so don't think I really know.

[asdjrocky]

131. I don't know nearly enough about history to say.

I do know there are families that have been very influential over the last hundred years or so. The problem is, when you start to delve too deeply into families and groups it seems you find yourself deep in conspiracy theory nuttery.

And the real question is who gives them the power? I'm not sure power is given, I do know it is taken. It does seem, once power is obtained, it accumulates at an ever increasing rate. I'm not talking about political power as much as financial power. The railroad barons did not start out as guys that just worked on the railroad, they were already rich and powerful when the government gave them, yes gave them, the land for their railroads. So it seems a safe bet to acquiring wealth and power in the US is to start out with a little wealth and power, and then you can get a lot courtesy of the government, which of course, is owned by the rich and powerful.

Who has the power now? The sons and daughters of the powerful.

Who gives them the power? The system that was created by them.

[defendandprotect]

141. As they say: "The establishment is a conspiracy" --

And, of course, it is --

So is capitalism -- a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system intended to move

the wealth and natural resources of nations from the many to the few.

Everything we have been taught about capitalism is a lie --

Capitalism isn't about competition, it's about killing the competition.

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime.


Unfortunately, wealth does translate into political power -- more money/more power --

and it does begin with elites tapping into government to help themselves to

its wealth, its land -- its military strength -- and its power to tax.

Elites don't want to run businesses -- they've done that as a second best

solution -- they want total control of government. And, finally, one owner.

As Howard Zinn tells us in the link --

this is perhaps even more horrendous than the Revolution and the Civil War!

We have to begin to find the threads to pull which depower them --

and we have to decide who we can trust and who we can't --

And that's a pretty frightening question looking at what we have in government now!


But this is sure as heck not going to turn out to be "conspiracy-free America" --


:)

[ProudDad]

134. I believe their power comes from our collective consent to allow them to have power over us...

By us I mean a critical mass of We the People...

But mostly through ignorance and programming...

The Zapatistas in Chiapas are an example of a body of humans who withdrew that power and have achieved autonomy and a golden chance to develop their own form of self-governance as a result...

[defendandprotect]

138. That's without doubt .....

but how does that happen --

But, confirming what you're saying, Gertrude Stein, the poet, sat out the war years

on a French/German border and got in immediately after and talked with the people.

She concluded the problem was their OBEDIENCE.


People are made obedient in a variety of different ways but often thru fear --

and programming. I cite organized patriarchal religion for that and these nations

were heavily under the programming of Christian teachings. 90% of them identified

as Christian.

Plenty of Nazi propaganda, as well. And getting the people used to a response of

violence. That's why the T-baggers concern me a great deal -- they seem to be being

used to introduce a higher level of political aggression -- and going to town hall

meetings with rifles slung over their shoulders?

Our government using torture is also a throwback to those times -- many say that

torture isn't about the enemy -- it's about frightening your own people into submission.

Overall -- I think my answer on the right wing has to be that their most effective tool

is violence.

That's the only way the right wing can rise -- that and stolen elections and lies.



We are obviously controlled by hierarchies of power --

we have to identify the main threads to begin pulling --

How to divide them -- for instance?

[ProudDad]

143. Another main source of their power is the "Enclosure of the Commons"

In the name of "property rights", the elites have taken "ownership" and control of the People's Common Inheritance...

Once they control the resources, the means of production and the levers of control the few dictate the terms under which they allow the many to have some crumbs from the groaning table for their own sustenance. Currently, the primary method of compliance is called "a job".

So we must remake our local "economies" into ones that enable distribution of goods and services providing for EVERY PERSON'S (and Nature's) needs and sized to the availability of resources instead of supporting the current Ponzi Scheme of bloated money based on debt backed by myths that favors no one but the rich.

[defendandprotect]

144. "Property" .....

is another concept that would put many here at DU on its side even right

now without understanding how in the end the few will have it all and

they'll have none --

We have to remember that we are going to have Mother Nature playing a very

strong hand in our futures -- Global Warming is a very serious and growing

threat to the planet and humanity. And Peak Oil.

But going back to property for a moment, it was the way that the Native

American was destroyed -- once they finally got one drunken Indian to say

that he actually "owned" a piece of land. Then the onslaught began until

finally the whole continent was stolen. How do we look at that as anything

but criminal behavior? But back up then was violence -- it's always violence.


What about the fact that they were dealing with people who spoke a different

language -- had no law books -- no written language?

While these "discoverers" were the basest of people, they were also portraying

themselves as more intelligent, more learned, more worldy -- as they demonized

the natives for their "paganism."

What do we see in all of that familiar to us today when we reflect on what Zinn

is saying about the laws essentially being about property and not about rights.

Top of the legal pyramid now is "corporate personhood" -- !!

So we must remake our local "economies" into ones that enable distribution of goods and services providing for EVERY PERSON'S (and Nature's) needs and sized to the availability of resources instead of supporting the current Ponzi Scheme of bloated money based on debt backed by myths that favors no one but the rich.

Some say that has to happen to deal with peak oil --

I'm betting however that we have a zillion different means -- probably over last 50 years --

of alternative energies. Did you see the story a few weeks ago here of Germany having a

"SOLAR BATTERY" automobile -- which goes 375 milles before needing recharging -- and then

recharging takes only 6 minutes?

I thought the idea of moving your money to Credit Unions was great -- we've been doing that

with little we have -- but I'm wondering if we'll see a scam scandal involving Credit Unions

soon? Otoh, the banks do so much with corporate money and money laundering who knows if

they care? HAH!

Kinda late -- so I'll just say, if we don't break up this criminal racket -- Mother Nature

will -- very soon!!

:)

[OneGrassRoot]

95. I keep coming back to the same question: Can we define "they" better?

For that matter, can we define "we" better?

Most of us feel a very definitive "us" versus "them" aspect to the injustice of things, yet I've posed the question recently as it's very much on my mind, with little response.

If we are going to try to DO something to work toward creating the society we prefer, versus the currently entrenched systems ('cause I think we can all agree the systems themselves are corrupt), it seems to me that we need to define "they" much better.

Are all CEOs, upper management, and/or board members of all multinational corporations "they"?

Are all politicians "they"?

Are all who comprise the top x% of the wealthiest people in this country "they"?

For that matter, who are "we"? DU is chock full of members reacting to events very differently, based on how they see themselves and the world around them.

If we could just define "they" for now, maybe we could come up with a plan to respond to the crises more intelligently and effectively.

At least we can try.....

Like asdjrocky, I don't have the answers, but I'm asking questions to perhaps help us get closer to some options to act upon and not feel so powerless.

[asdjrocky]

99. Good questions, all.

And it helps to clarify some things. Actually, after reading your words I think us and them is pretty obvious. There's the 98% and the rest.

Seriously, if one of the 2% wants to join "us" it would be pretty easy, they'd just have to give a lot of money to a lot of poor people.

What do they say about a rising tide? I say it's time to turn on the BIG faucets.

[defendandprotect]

123. Amazing thing about populist speeches is that people then begin to

sort themselves out as to who they are --

those who aren't leave --

those who are stay and cheer you on --


In regard to another poster's observation...

If we want to win we need to see where their power comes from

Do you have any thoughts on that?


Many of us have commented that there are similarities to Nazi Germany ...

Do we even have enough info now to understand the source of their power at

the time even understanding how much American Elites and corporations were

involved in funding Hitler and financing a new military there?

Like our long history of wars, each one has defeated a lesser enemy -- or an

already defeated enemy -- with a bigger and more heavily armed military --

and more brutal and cruel weapons.

(Looking at Grenada, Panama, Gulf War I -- followed by 20+ years of bombing

that defeated nation -- Afghanistan and Gulf War II -- all to overcome what

Poppy Bush called the "Vietnam War Syndrome" Americans were suffering!)




:)

[BrklynLiberal]

98. Superb post!!!

"There probably is, but at least you'd get some press by getting arrested."

Youd'd also three meals a day and a roof over your head....oh yes, and medical care.
Isn't that sad?

[asdjrocky]

100. And here's the thing-

Jail is not nearly as scary as people have been led to believe.

[BrklynLiberal]

101. Especially compared to being homeless, foodless, and naked in the streets.....

[earth mom]

102. People in this country need to be like the French. Obama works FOR the people and

people forget that because they rather be rooting for the "team" while they admire their smooth talking hero and his cute family and dog.

Insane! :crazy:

[defendandprotect]

124. Actually ....

I think many of us see it as Obama working for corporate/elite interests --

not the people.

[unapatriciated]

103. well done Rocky

:toast: :hi:

[OwnedByFerrets]

104. One of the very best that I have seen written on DU. Thanks

[amborin]

105. K&R

[TriMera]

111. k & r. n/t

[bluestateboomer]

122. Well Written!

Good Howard Zinn quote too!

[maryf]

125. k&r

"Our problem is civil obedience", in a nutshell, thanks!

[annabanana]

129. Whole thread: exellent.. . . .OP; well done,asdjrocky. . n/t

[ProudDad]

135. K&R

The MAIN problem IS Civil Obedience...

And the inability of most people to understand that it's within our collective power to remove it...

[Jeffersons Ghost]

136. Masada

[asdjrocky]

140. Well, thanks Jim Jones, but no thanks. nt

[snappyturtle]

137. Kick! Great post. nt

[OneGrassRoot]

145. Another question/observation based on this most excellent thread:

My question earlier was how do we define "they"? Many feel it's clearly the 2% of those who own the wealth/resources.

BTW, is that global, as well as in the US?

And that's cool if we define "they" in that manner, though I still think we need to get more specific to define EXACTLY -- with names -- who is "they" and not name corporations, but the people behind the corporations. I say this not as a target list or anything so nefarious, but to simply define the situation more clearly.

But my next question is, must we believe that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the 2%ers is evil? Granted, many of us believe in a well-planned, intentional and, yes, evil effort for decades to essentially destroy the middle class and have a feudal system all over again, with only the wealthiest truly living, while the rest of us serve them and merely exist.

I, personally, don't believe every single wealthy person is consciously and actively part of this effort. Granted, some may turn a blind eye to it and thus have a huge responsibility, but I do believe there are those with wealth and resources that can be appealed to, to help turn the tide.

We're hearing about different groups of millionaires and billionaires coming together to oppose the tax cuts and pledge to give away their fortunes.

I don't believe all of those efforts are good faith; I believe many are part of a PR blitz. Some of the philanthropic efforts are simply another avenue to conserve their own wealth, as their funds go into their own foundations, with subsequent write-offs and other benefits to them, personally.

However, I don't believe all are like that. I'd like to find those with wealth and resources who have a heart and a conscience, and to bring the reality to the fore that, as the populace continues to suffer, everyone suffers. Gated communities don't protect people from disease, for example. There are some who have wealth and resources who may be able to see the bigger, more wholistic picture.

[asdjrocky]

146. Here's my question.

Don't the people of wealth and means already know how fucked up everything is for everyone else? Where are those people with wealth and resources who have a heart? Where have they been all this time?

The problem is people of means vote Democratic or give some money to a hospital and they think that's all they have to do. All the while watching the world crumble around them.

[OneGrassRoot]

148. Humans are complicated...

And I surely can't wrap my brain around what makes people do what they do or don't do, or why they think what they think.

So many things are obvious to me but even here on DU I can't get people on board to DO things.

Just because people have resources (and a conscience), it doesn't mean they know how best to help. Indeed, there is SO much need that perhaps it's just friggin overwhelming, so they turn it off.

Plenty of people without resources do the same thing. Turn it all off 'cause it's too much, it's too overwhelming. Even if you can help with something, there are too many "somethings" and most people just turn away and tend to what is directly in front of them.

It's all so overwhelming.

I'm not asking these questions of you, Rocky; I'm hoping others will chime in with ideas and a specific game plan, just as you are.

:hi:

[asdjrocky]

149. I know how you feel.

Questions, questions everywhere, and not a drop of answer.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

147. If ever there was a time for non-violent civil disobedience--

it is right now. :applaud:

I think shutting down DC with massive protests -- including massive arrest -- could be the only thing that would bring in the kind of attention needed.