Cave-painters of ancient horses were realists: study

[FarCenter]

An international team of researchers said Monday they have found the first evidence that spotted horses, often seen depicted in cave paintings, actually existed tens of thousands of years ago.

That means ancient artists were drawing what they saw around them, and were not abstract or symbolic painters -- a topic of much debate among archeologists -- said the findings in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

By analyzing bones and teeth from more than 30 horses in Siberia and Europe dating back as many as 35,000 years, researchers found that six shared a gene associated with a type of leopard spotting seen in modern horses.

Until now, scientists only had DNA evidence of monochrome horses, such as bay and black.

http://www.france24.com/en/20111107-cave-painters-ancient-horses-were-realists-study

[alphafemale]

1. As in Appaloosa?

I thought that was pretty ancient.

[csziggy]

6. That was my first thought - the Appaloosa registry made those claims

Decades ago.

The App association has all kinds of art and stuff showing spotted horses thousands of years ago - including prehistoric cave art. I guess in the years since then DNA studies into color inheritance have given them more evidence for their claims!

The leopard pattern in Apps is pretty unmistakable:

A leopard Appaloosa is part of the mascot team for the Florida State University Seminoles.

[LibertyLover]

20. There is actually a type of horse in Europe called the Leopard

Horse. I saw a mounted specimen in the Danish Royal Coach Museum in Copenhagen. It did indeed have a light coat and smallish dark spots all over its body. Here in the US, they appear to be called Leopard Appaloosas. Here's a YouTube video of one in England: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spYOfc1HPJ4 and a larger collection of photos: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Leopard_spotting_(Horse)
They are pretty, or at least I think they are

[Tansy_Gold]

2. K&R and a pic

compare to

http://jwestphotography.com/horses/mixed-herd-gold-canyon-az/

[eleny]

3. In high school I read On The Track Of Prehistoric Man by Herbert Kuhn

It was written back in the 1950s and I read it almost 10 years later. It describes entering the various European caves and viewing the paintings. It gave me goosebumps and a spurred a lifelong love of anything to do with anthropology.

Thanks for posting the article!

[NMMNG]

4. Fascinating. K&R

[Luminous Animal]

5. Well, they were pretty bad at it....

I joke, I joke.

[coalition_unwilling]

10. But they were great at anticipating the need of material for

Art History 101 slide shows :)

[xchrom]

7. Recommend

[greyl]

8. Dubious interpretation of the findings by the article's author.

Not that spotted horses existed in the area and time the said paintings were created, but that ancient artists (30,000 - 1,000,000 years ago, or so) "were not abstract or symbolic painters".

That conclusion can not be drawn from these particular findings. Where in these findings is it shown that ancient artists did not create representational(realistic), symbolic, and abstract art? There's just too much evidence that they did. Written in stone, as it were.

(In any case, the process of re-presenting with simple marks that which one sees is an abstraction in itself - a symbolic interpretation; a translation into 2 dimensions of something existing in at least 3.)

[Confusious]

9. Somehow I doubt that cave artists

Gave a lot of time to abstract art. They were probably more interested in survival. If you think it's abstract art, then what they were drawing is probably gone (erosion, extinction, change)

I would also like to know if you actually read the report since you stated "That conclusion can not be drawn from these particular findings"

[greyl]

12. You might doubt that proposition because you fabricated it yourself.

Does that end the mystery of how you doubt it "somehow"? ;) I don't recall making a statement about how much time cave artists spent on abstract art. It's just a poorly written, bullshitted article by someone who is not an expert and didn't read or comprehend the findings, that's all.

There is, in fact, much evidence of abstract, symbolic, ancient art.

The actual conclusions of National Academy of Sciences: "This finding lends support to hypotheses arguing that cave paintings might have contained less of a symbolic or transcendental connotation than often assumed." - NAS


The article's author is indeed drawing conclusions not supported in the least by the actual findings the article is about.

edit: Article on the findings sans bullshit here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15619885 care of eppur_se_muova in the Science Forum.

[Confusious]

15. Maybe you didn't make the statement...

But this statement - > "Where in these findings is it shown that ancient artists did not create representational(realistic), symbolic, and abstract art? There's just too much evidence that they did."

Makes it a point to say that they did "create abstract art"

You certainly got your feathers in a ruffle about how bad the article was, and how the guy didn't know what he was talking about.

The statement 'This finding lends support to hypotheses arguing that cave paintings might have contained less of a symbolic or transcendental connotation than often assumed.'

backs up what the article says. It doesn't say "This finding lends NO support to hypotheses..."

So do you have an advanced degree in anthropology, or did you read the actual report by the scientists, not just the article? You didn't answer the last time.

[greyl]

16. To be brief, the OP article says ancient artists "were not abstract or symbolic painters".

That is bullshit, and I think I've already provided ample support for that assertion.

edit: Please note this link which I added to my previous reply: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15619885 . That's an article on the findings of the NAS without the dubious conclusions proffered by the author of the article cited in this thread's OP. (no fault of the DUer who posted the article in this thread at all)

[Johonny]

21. I think it depends on what they mean by symbolic and abstract

most cultures even today have symbolic art. However much of symbolic art isn't random shapes etc... It is actual realistic paintings. People are visual in their interpretation of the world. We often express "magical" properties to realistic depictions of animals, people... This is why so many religions eventually banned idol worship. However today we still idol worship even in societies that pretend they don't. This type of symbolism is very likely to have occurred in these societies that did the cave paintings and is why they worked hard to make the pictures look "real". As for abstract art, it isn't clear they were interested in exploring color for color sake, or pure composition design, or form. That type of art was thought to be rather rare until recently. Although most art forms has some abstract qualities to them. Few if any societies mastered true perspective and thus while these art works have a certain realism to them and they also have a general cultural abstract qualities too. Think Egyptian art that is focused on realism, they drew mostly from nature, and yet the art has a cultural abstract quality and obviously a lot of cultural symbolism. Since art was used this way in ancient times, is still used this way, it is certainly a good guess that these cave paintings were used this way.

[LuvNewcastle]

11. Makes you wonder how much more

ancient art might have been realistic. A lot of those weird-looking creatures seen in statues and drawings might well have existed.

[Fumesucker]

13. Virtual tour of the Lascaux cave paintings..

http://www.lascaux.culture.fr/#/en/00.xml

[greyl]

14. Awesome, then alarming.

Traveled through the Salle ensablée, and swear I saw Katie Couric's doctor.

[dameocrat67]

17. I dont know about other paintings but the horse depicted in the article

is dun rather than spotted. Duns are often lighter though not pure white on their bellies and legs. Dun is also well known to be the color of the Tarpan and the Taki, which were the last undomesticated horses to survive the modern era. Takis are still here. http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/przewalski/index.htm

[LWolf]

19. I wonder if various colors and coat patterns

evolved as camouflage in different environments.

Dun and spots both work that way.

[dameocrat67]

22. you dont generally see white marking on animals like appaloosa blankets

till domestication. I think the article is bunk.

[Courtesy Flush]

18. What I don't understand about DNA

I've seen many stories where evidence is days, or months old, and the DNA is not salvageable, even if there is a lot of tissue. Then I see stories of scientists collecting DNA from neanderthals, and ancient animals.

[dameocrat67]

23. the dna gets fragmented

so with ancient specimens they have to collect a number of specimens. Murder cases are not trying to gene map species, they are trying to gene map individuals. Even with ancient species it is difficult so for instants they have never actually produced any fragmentary dna samples of dinosaurs. Dinosaurs went extinct earlier.

[itsrobert]

24. No Unicorns?

Yeah us.

[slackmaster]

25. Endorsed

:kick:

[dameocrat67]

26. Some pics of dun takhis showing the mealy light marks on their bellies

http://www.takhi.org/about-us.html