It's perfectly fine to pass judgement on someone else's choices.

[Lyric]

So long as nobody's trying to legally REMOVE those choices, "judging" them is A-Fucking-Okay. I don't give a damn whether someone else dislikes or disapproves of my choices. They can be pissed about it. They can hate it. They can call me any name in the book. So long as they aren't trying to legally take that choice AWAY from me, they can pass judgement ALL DAY LONG and I don't care. I'm guessing that most people here probably agree with the idea that, so long as LEGAL rights are protected, we all have the right to dislike, disapprove of, and "judge" anyone we goddamned-well please.

That being said--trying to defend that horrid, neglectful, selfish Duggar couple by claiming that we shouldn't "judge" their "choice" is fucking disgusting. Of COURSE we're going to judge their choice. Almost every time we give nine kinds of hell to the morons on the right, we're doing it out of JUDGEMENT for their shitty, stupid, narrow-minded, self-indulgent CHOICES. I haven't seen anyone claim that we should tie that Duggar woman down and rip out her uterus (although honestly, that sucker is probably ready to fall out on its own by now). Nobody's suiting up to go storm their compound and legally remove their right to have more children. But I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and pretend like all choices are morally equal, because they are NOT. Nobody is asking the fundie right-wingers to APPROVE of abortion, for example. Nobody's asking them to stop preaching against it or condemning people to hell for it. Their religion, their choice. We just don't want them to make it ILLEGAL for the people who don't agree with them. They can "judge" all they want; it's when they try to force that judgement upon other people via the law that we have a serious problem.

What those Duggar people are doing is incredibly selfish. Frankly, I'm pretty sure that both of them are sick in the head. And their older kids...I can't believe that some people here HONESTLY want to compare forced domestic servitude and forced full-time parenting to "a few chores and babysitting". Are you fucking SERIOUS?! Jesus. There is no equivalency between asking a child to change a diaper or babysit for an hour, and forcing a child to take on FULL-TIME parenting responsibilities for a baby that they did NOT bring into this world, in ADDITION to cleaning, cooking, and housework for a family of 20+ people. Those two situations are NOTHING alike.

There is also ZERO equivalency between judging the dickish, selfish, asinine reproductive behavior of the Duggar cult and the right-wing desire to legally take away reproductive rights. Those two things are ALSO completely unalike.

I don't know why there appears to be a sudden deluge of Duggar Defenders here at DU, but it's disgusting to witness. Do I think that the Duggars should lose their legal right to reproduce? No. Do I think that we should condemn them as loudly and frequently as possible, so as to discourage others from imitating their reckless, negligent behavior? HELL YES.

And as for the claim that the Duggars are "making it on their own"...ROFLMFAO. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sure, they make it on their own--just like Wall Street and the Phelps clan does. Gotta milk the gullible suckers in this world for everything you can get. Infamy is fucking LUCRATIVE.

:eyes:

[formercia]

1. Making little sausages.

I'm sure they rejected tax breaks for dependents and State aid.

[Nye Bevan]

2. How about advocating forced sterilization?

Like this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2261880&mesg_id=2263088

If I complain about this, does that make me one of those Disgusting Duggar Defenders?

[spooky3]

6. Did you read what Lyric said? "Do I think that the Duggars should lose their legal right

to reproduce? No."

She was perfectly clear about that.

[TheWraith]

3. Amen to that.

Being a liberal does not mean equally respecting everyone, when it's clear that they're 1) morons, 2) unfit parents, 3) harming themselves, or 4) all of the above.

Being a liberal means that you don't believe that you're entitled to ban someone from doing something "for their own good."

[Texasgal]

4. Believe me I have an issue

with the Duggars.

I find it INSANE that they have so many children. I find it weird and I find it strange.

However, her reproductive choices are her own. It does not appear that the 19 children are being abused or unattended. It's not my cup of tea, but it's not my legal business.

Do i have an opinion? You betcha I do! Would I do it myself? HELL NO!

Until there is some subnational proof that her children are being abused I have no issues except my own dislike of her choice.

[Solly Mack]

5. ...

[TBF]

7. I try to avoid judging others -

but when it gets to the point that others are being abused, then yes I will say something. Abuse comes in different forms - it can be banks that are predatory and stealing money from us, it can be actual physical abuse of folks, it can be neglect as it would likely be in this case. How could one set of parents humanely raise 20 children? Not that it's a bad thing for older kids to babysit and learn how to teach their younger siblings, but it shouldn't be a full time job.

[renate]

8. you have absolutely convinced me, and I love the way you did it!

You got right to the point!

I definitely had been confusing "judging" with "wanting to legislate or control." Now that you've pointed out that flaw in my logic, I feel kind of stupid. I guess I was trying too hard to respect other people's choices even though some choices are just plain stupid. I can't help judging these parents, but I was trying to stop myself from doing that because it really is their right to reproduce however they want to.

Also, I like what you said about the older kids. Yes, the parents have the right to have as many kids as they want, but it's pretty shitty of them to have kids they can't possibly care for. The mom may have a choice about what to do with her body (and I really hope it's her choice as much as it is Jim Bob's... I loved being pregnant, but after double-digit kids I'd be all "Jim Bob, not every single sperm is sacred, go spill some by yourself"), but the older kids should have a choice about whether they want to take responsibility for the results of their parents' behavior.

But this was my favorite part of all: "I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and pretend like all choices are morally equal, because they are NOT. Nobody is asking the fundie right-wingers to APPROVE of abortion, for example.... We just don't want them to make it ILLEGAL for the people who don't agree with them. They can "judge" all they want; it's when they try to force that judgement upon other people via the law that we have a serious problem."

:yourock:

[Lyric]

9. "Jim Bob, not every single sperm is sacred, go spill some by yourself"

Omfg.

:spray:

You owe me a new keyboard for that one!

:rofl:

[Mother Of Four]

12. Ditto....

I even started singing the Monty Python song phrase "Every sperm is sacred" and then followed it up with a very poor english accent saying "Pick that up for me will you dear?"


Needless to say, my youngest two looked at me like I was insane ROFL :crazy:

Edited to add: After posting I saw my personal icon under my name, (baby) and emitted yet another inappropriate giggle. FYI, I recced the OP because I agree totally. Big difference between having an opinion and stripping someone of their rights due to aforementioned opinion.

[alterfurz]

17. Groucho weighs in...

Groucho: So, you got any kids?
"You Bet Your Life" female contestant: Yes, Groucho, I have eleven children.
Groucho: Eleven?! Did you say eleven kids?
Female contestant: Well, I love my husband...
Groucho: Lady, I love my cigar but I take it out of my mouth once in a while.

[hifiguy]

22. That one never gets old.

One of the greatest 50-megaton zingers of all time. :rofl:

[demmiblue]

10. K&R! n/t

[piratefish08]

11. whatever your opinion, VOICE IT HERE! the Duggars put their sideshow on television for $ and to

spur a social movement.......

Any and all opinions - positive or negative are warranted.........

[Sirveri]

13. I don't think you fully understand their position.

I shouldn't since I'm going offline but...

That would be like saying that people shouldn't attempt to revoke the right (or choice) to murder people. (Yes I know such a right doesn't exist)

I don't hold that abortion is murder, but there are plenty of people who do. What you're asking is that they basically suspend their own conscience and not work towards what they consider to be social justice. They don't see themselves as revoking your rights, but defending the rights of others (in this case the unborn), which is why this is such a hot topic issue. I would love to see health insurers smashed hard for dropping cancer patients (or any patient), and I'd love to use the law to do it since they're basically killing people for money. But there are idiots who would oppose me on that because they think corps are people, or that the government shouldn't interfere in business or for any other asinine idiotic reason.

What I'm trying to say here is that, they have every right to pursue justice, because without the ability to pursue what the individual thinks is justice, then will any of us ever have any justice? It falls on the rest of us to take a stand and hold the line and keep the fringe in check at the ballot box. And if the majority of the voters agree... well perhaps that community is no longer one you wish to remain a part of.

[pipi_k]

14. I must say this...

You are way nicer than I am.

You said you would not advocate for taking away the Duggars' right to add to their litter family.

I would.

For one thing, like you said, there has to be something seriously wrong with them. That would be a real good reason for me to say they don't even deserve two kids, never mind 20. Nothing like visiting one's own mental health issues on the kids...and making sure that society pays the price in some form or another.

Not to mention the fact that a kid deserves as much parental attention as it can get. How does a parent...or two...give all the attention a kid deserves?

FGS, my daughter and her husband have ONE child, and even ONE child can demand a lot of attention

Also, and I again agree with you on this...there's a huge difference between being asked to babysit once in a while and being asked to virtually RAISE one's own siblings. I can't even begin to count how many stories I've heard over the years in various support groups when members whose parents have not been physically or emotionally available for one reason or another have had to raise their siblings. In essence, doing the job of their own parents.

And they weren't happy about it.

And so many of them grow up to be caretakers in the first degree...often getting into relationships with weak or ineffectual people, taking over their lives, and "taking care" of them. That often leads to resentment on both sides...even on the side of the caretaker him/herself, who doesn't really want to be a caretaker, but can't seem to get away from the family script written out for him/her when s/he was a child.

When we're talking about people like the Duggars, all we ever hear is a relative lack of empathy for the kids who have to deal with being made into a housekeeper or babysitter when they should be out having fun like other kids...and it's all about the dubious "rights" of grown adults to spawn as many kids as they want to. Because, you know...it really IS all about them. :eyes:

Screw the kids and what's good for them. For the adults, it's all about ME ME ME.

bleh.

Forced sterilization...yes. I would definitely be in favor of it in some circumstances.

[bighart]

18. "Forced sterilization...

yes. I would definitely be in favor of it in some circumstances."

Who gets to decide who this is applied to and what are the criteria? Are you prepared to accept it being turned around at a later date? Let's say you pass legislation that says you can only have 8 kids and after that must be sterilized. 20 years down the road there is an amendment and if you have more than one abortion you have to be sterilized as well, you gonna be ok with that too?

[pipi_k]

19. One circumstance I can think of...

women addicted to drugs. Especially if they already have kids they're not taking care of.

I have a friend who adopted her crackhead daughter's two kids when they were very small. The girl isn't quite as damaged as the boy is, considering that her birth mother did some horrible things to her, including forcing the kid's hand on a hot stove burner.

The boy is just pathetic. Heart breaking. He must have been on every drug known to medicine for the treatment of extreme anger. He tried to drown one of his little cousins in the backyard pool one day.

These kids live tortured lives and would have been better off not being born at all.

If the boy doesn't turn out to be a serial killer, I will be really surprised. I can't even find the right words to explain how miserable his life has been.

But hey...his mom had the RIGHT to have kids...as many as she wanted. Fuck the kids...it's really all about HER. And she is still messed up, more than 15 years later.

That is just one of the people I would forcibly sterilize.

[bighart]

21. I certainly understand the feelings you have, especially given the

situation you describe. Have seen some similar situations, including one with my own sister, 6 kids by 5 men strung out on drugs most of her adult life mom and dad taking on raising the kids only to be stolen from and physically attacked by 2 of them.

Just not sure if legislating issues like forced sterilization would solve the problem, it would just treat the symptoms.

[AngryAmish]

28. three generations of imbeciles are enough, no?

[JoeyT]

15. I'm never going to make a case for sterilizing anyone.

Since I think everyone's reproductive system should be under their own control. There *is* a case to be made for CPS taking those kids, though. The oldest, especially the girls, are essentially being brainwashed into believing their only value in life is their ability to produce and care for legions of kids.

[ehrnst]

16. I think that even idiots like the Duggars deserve health care, and their kids should not suffer.

And no, I don't think that taking away reproductive freedom from any woman is worth stopping stupid, selfish people like the Duggars.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

20. not just *their* choice...they impose the consequences of their mania on us all

[RainDog]

23. hells yeah. k&r n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. K&R!

[Jamastiene]

25. K&R

[kctim]

26. Funny

That is probably the exact same argument the Duggars use about taxes, social security, universal health care, welfare etc...

[eppur_se_muova]

27. "I have a dream ... they will not be judged by the color of their skin but ...

BY THE CONTENT OF THEIR CHARACTER."

Not judging is not listed as an option. :)

What, you thought Baptist ministers didn't judge ?

[Wait Wut]

29. Finally.

Without "judgment" we would have no DU. We judge others constantly here. It's normal.

On the other hand, breeding like a cochroach is NOT normal. It's sick. Sick, but totally legal.

[Taverner]

30. Call me the bad guy, but having over four kids should be a crime

[smirkymonkey]

32. Well, you aren't the only one.

I actually think more than two is insane.

[CoffeeCat]

31. I predict that some of these Duggar spawn...

...will snap. They cannot be who they are--in this highly religious, controlling family. There
are cameras rolling--and I'm sure many of them feel pressured to "go along". Essentially, because
of the demand to "go along" and the cameras--these children do not get to grow up normally
and decide for themselves who they are and what they want to be.

Is someone going to tell me that no one in that family is gay? Or disagrees with their family's
rigid views? Or is in pain because of this lifestyle and the all-watching cameras?

The rigid religion is bad enough. But the cameras add another controlling element that could stunt
personal development, expression and freedom.

I think we'll see various forms of personal pain as these kids grow into adulthood.

And who will the parents call if there is drug addiction or alcoholism? Why Dr. Drew of course!
Gotta keep them cameras rolling!

Another point--In small families, many children grow up and develop different religious views than
their parents have. They have 20 children. How many of these children are going to grow up and
end up having minds of their own? Some will reject the lives that their parents have lived.

I imagine we'll see a tell-all book or two--from the children who dared to think for themselves.

[demmiblue]

33. !

[fascisthunter]

34. well put (nt)