Naomi Wolf Apologists Still Lack Facts

[tabatha]

Since I wrote my original post on her ridiculous conclusion that the government is waging civil war on us and then another over on Crooks and Liars, the world has evidently gone mad. Take a look at the comments on Joshua Holland’s Alternet post debunking Naomi Wolf’s hackery for evidence of that.

Look, folks. Feeling like something must be true is not the same as truth. Feeling like DHS must be orchestrating a nationwide crackdown is not the same as DHS orchestrating a nationwide crackdown. Feeling is what Fox News relies on to disseminate disinformation and create a fantasy-based electorate.

Here’s what has come to light since I wrote the original post:

Mr. Ellis has responded to my Crooks and Liars post by essentially confirming that the “grand conspiracy” he alluded to in his first post does not exist at this time, or at least, he cannot confirm it. The only confirmation he could get was that the DHS was present in Portland. This should not come as a surprise, given that the OccupyPortland group was adjacent to federal property.

http://www.drumsnwhistles.com/2011/11/27/naomi-wolf-apologists-lack-facts/

[Arctic Dave]

1. Well then, call for a congressional hearing or stop yammering.

I notice on these articles they are all for talking shit about the article but when it comes actually wanting to see if there is any truth to it the all go bugged eyed and silent.

[napoleon_in_rags]

2. You know, when it comes to tinfoil hats regarding the gov. right now, I don't blame her.

South Carolina's left-wing Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, however, is supporting provisions to eradicate Posse Comitatus and dramatically expand the powers of the Federal government.

The US Senate Armed Forces Committee, led by Carl Levin (D-MI) and John McCain (R-AZ), held a secret closed door session to insert ominous new Federal powers into the Defense Authorization Bill. This is the annual bill to fund the US military. These new powers were requested by the Obama administration.

http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz-in-charleston-sc/lindsey-graham-calls-for-using-military-against-american-citizens#ixzz1eyV1fTNe

And lets not forget the great new piece by wired:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/11/reasons-to-wear-tinfoil-hats/

(snip)Warrantless GPS Tracking
The Obama administration claims Americans have no right to privacy in their public movements. (snip)

If you’re already not wanting a dose of Prozac, consider that the law allows the government to obtain Americans’ e-mails, without a warrant, if it’s stored on some other company’s servers for more than six months. The Electronic Communications Privacy Act, adopted in 1986, turned 25 this year. When written, the law assumed e-mails left on a server for that long were abandoned.

In the age of Gmail, that’s simply ridiculous. A proposal to demand a court warrant for any and all e-mail never got a Senate hearing and was opposed by the Obama administration.(snip)

This admin isn't exactly batting 1000 on the civil liberties front.

[EFerrari]

10. Starting from the assumption that DHS is coordinating attacks

on OWS is not tinfoil hat. It's more bringing experience to bear on the issue. We're way past the point where being paranoid about government intrusiveness is even possible.

[Speck Tater]

3. Facts? Who has time for facts when there's righteous indignation to stir up? nt

[Bonobo]

4. The relative import you are giving this is out of proportion though.

Was there a direct order from the Feds to crack down on OWS in multiple cities? Probably not -no one needs to be that obvious anyway. A whisper in the right ear or even lack a wink and nod could accomplish the same thing.

In fact even the signal that the feds will not object would be enough to allow mayors to self-coordinate the "Crush OWS" movement.

So what is the big deal? Why are you wasting so much effort on this.

So it is not a fact and is only an opinion. Fine. The result is the same -there strongly appears that there was some coordination in the timing if not the tactics as well of the crush OWS movement.

Your moaning about Ms. Wolf's article is all out of balance with regards to its relative import.

[tabatha]

5. I am only posting about a topic of interest.

I have not editorialized.

I have not posted on this subject before, except to say that people should not confuse Naomi Klein and Wolf.

Are you the arbiter of what is posted on DU - is only one side allowed to be presented?

[Bonobo]

6. Am I allowed to give MY opinion?

It is ironic that you are asking me if I am the arbiter of what is allowed to be posted.

Am I allowed to post my opinion? If so, it is only to say that those who are quibbling with Ms. Wolf are making too much of her article and consequently allowing attention to be diverted away from the strong-arm gestapo-like tactics of the US police.

[tabatha]

7. Of course you are allowed to give your opinion - I have never stated

otherwise. I was asking why you thought I could not post an article without an opinion.

[Bonobo]

9. Thanks. And I also never said you could not. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. I will like to adrress this not from her Post

but at a more meta level.

Given US History, if OWS was a group of 500K knitters producing scarfs for starving and needy children, with cookies and milk to boot... it would still be infiltrated.

This is just the way it is.

Are these orders given by the WH? Nope... are they given by the Secretary of Homeland Security? Nope... they are triggered at a much lower level, and well bellow that pay grade.

This is why the FBI infiltrated the Grandmas for Peace during the Bush years, and this is why they infiltrate Right Wing militias regularly.

During the 1960s people who spoke of federal infiltration of the peace movement or SDS were treated like conspiracy loons... and your crazy uncle. That is until we had hearings, which revealed the extent of the efforts, in things like Contrielpro.

Is it crazy to speculate that there is coordination in the post 911 era? No. Does she have the goods? No... but I will offer this to you... well after the dust settles don't be too shocked if she got close to the truth. Even if not precisely in the way she wrote it.

Was this ordered by Chairman King? No... though he might have whispered favors to friends... was this ordered by the Secretary? Not even by the under secretary of signing papers at DHS... it was that much lower.

Some facts, we know.

DHS is a huge federal bureaucracy

DHS is concerned with all threats to the homeland, INCLUDING civil disobedience and disturbances, and riots, Let me see where OWS enters into that scheme...

DHS has been coordinating ANTI TERROR units from multiple municipal police departments... and also coordinating training and protocols. Could they be coordinating this? Well that call of mayors is tantalizing, so is PERF... and anyway, if you all are trained the same way with same protocols same tactics will emerge in the field... that is your lowest level and that is happening.

If there was any coordination it comes at a much lower level than the President or even the Secretary.

To ignore this just because she probably got some of this wrong... is crazy... (and she got a few things wrong) But a meta level it is happening and you will learn of this when the inevitable hearings are carried out well after the dust settles, the same way Contrielpro was revealed by the Church Committee and later in the '76 hearings. I am sure many people who figured them dirty hippies were just paranoid learned a lesson but never apologized.

As I said, if this was 500L knitters it would be suspect and would trigger the same mechanisms... they are set with triggers and it is part of what they are supposed to do... it is part of their mandate, the dark side of it.

[tabatha]

11. Well reasoned post. Thank you.

[cherokeeprogressive]

12. WTH is a "meta" level? Is it like the loge, or would it be more like the reserved section?

Maybe I'm going in the wrong direction altogether, and it's actually where the field level boxes are located?

How does one get to the "meta" level? Stairway? Escalator? Elevator? Levitation?

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. You should use a dictionary

but here you go

Meta- (from Greek: μετά = "after", "beyond", "with", "adjacent", "self"), is a prefix used in English (and other Greek-owing languages) to indicate a concept which is an abstraction from another concept, used to complete or add to the latter.

And I guess I have found my designated fan.

:hi:

Or it is a hell of a coincidence.

It is a term used in advanced writing.

[cherokeeprogressive]

14. Your words: "not from her Post but at a more meta level" disagrees with the definition you posted.

How could you post a response "not from her Post" and consider it to be an abstraction of her post? How could your post "add" to something you stated you weren't responding to?

If I'm to be considered a "designated fan", put me in the upper-level reserved seating, or out in the bleachers. The cheap seats as it were.

I've known people like you personally. When someone in a group says "I", then describes an experience, they respond with "Yes but I" and add to/embellish their response so as to seem more familiar or experienced with what the original speaker had to say. Case in point... Someone posts about gluten, and your brother is a gluten expert whom you've actually discussed the OP's experience with, but in a different context.

For what it's worth, I might be wrong about you. You might really have done it all and seen it all and read about that which you hadn't yet done or seen.

But it sure would be a hell of a coincidence.

I guess I just haven't read enough... because in all the books I've read, be they fiction or non, I've never seen an author use the term as many times as I've seen you use it here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Alas most people do not have problems understanding this

you do.

Have a good day

[H2O Man]

19. Seems clear to me.

[Name removed]

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[Exultant Democracy]

23. Obviously she is reading better books. Your argument is NB always appears to be informed

so you call bullshit. What if she is in fact just that much better informed then you about a whole host of thing and not just more informed about the work meta.

[Number23]

16. Rec'd

'In fact, Mr. Ellis debunked his own conspiracy theory nine days before Naomi Wolf published her screed on The Guardian."

Good to know that some folks are willing to admit that they may not have all of the answers. The author of that shady Examiner piece says point blank that since his initial report, it's not clear what role DHS has played in all of this.

If the person who originally came up with this story has now admitted that he may not have all of the answers, then for the life of me I can't understand why in Hell so many are determined to pursue this other than they think they can turn this into a black eye for the president.

"Facts are facts. When you write a piece alleging an undeclared civil war by the President and Congress with no truth or facts under it, I have the right to call bullshit. Whether I support the President or not has nothing to do with it. Lies are lies; hysteria is hysteria; paranoia is paranoia, and it’s absurd to suggest that they should go unchallenged because I support the President. If there were a shred of truth to Wolf’s assertions, that would be the argument to make. Trying to marginalize mine because of who I support politically is nothing more than an effort to spin away the truth of this matter: Wolf has invented a civil war that isn’t there."

I agree.

[ixion]

17. Ah, standing up for tyranny and the empire

how lame.

[SidDithers]

18. K&R...nt

Sid

[Name removed]

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