The coolest boy in school can't be a rapist.

[Robb]

(snip)

Claes Bergström, lawyer for the two women, insists that there is nothing unorthodox in the process to date, although he argues "the prosecutor took too long before she decided to go to court in order to get Assange detained", in which time he had left the country – entirely legitimately, as Bergström acknowledges. Though Assange has not been formally "charged" in a term equivalent with that stage in English law, he says, the district court of Stockholm, upheld by the president of the court of appeal, judged that he should be detained "because he is on probable cause suspected of rape, unlawful coercion and sexual molestation".

What of the charge that Bergström himself has political motivations, and persuaded the two women to appeal against the prosecutor's dismissal when they had not initially wanted to allege rape? "They didn't know, actually, how they should handle the situation. We know that many women ... are not quite sure: was this a crime or not? It is in the neighbourhood, but on what side of the border is it?" The police officer who heard their story was legally obliged to contact a prosecutor, who judged it was a rape allegation, Bergström said.

(snip)

The treatment of Assange's two accusers on the internet – where their identities widely circulate, linked to outlandish conspiracy theories – understandably appals Swedish feminists. Anna-Klara Bratt, editor of the online weekly magazine Feministiskt Perspektiv, speaks of "a flood of hatred" for the women. "Julian Assange, the coolest boy in the school. He can't be a rapist!"

Her major frustration, however, has been a lack of understanding of Swedish rape law, and portrayals of the country as a progressive paradise for victims of sex crimes. "From a feminist perspective, the law isn't good enough," she says. Swedish rape law does not rely on the concept of consent of both parties, stating instead that a rape occurs when violence or the threat of violence is used (though the amount of violence can be minimal), or when a victim is taken advantage of when asleep, drunk, or otherwise incapacitated. A number of Swedish lawyers argue that, in fact, the British laws on rape are stricter.

Read More: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/feb/05/julian-assange-reveal-everything

[xchrom]

1. this is never going to work out the way you want it to. nt

[Robb]

2. Oh, please.

:eyes:

[xchrom]

4. funny -- that's the response i have every time you post another

character assassination piece on assange.

sad really that it takes up your time like this.

imagining him to be the rapist he isn't.

the time spent pondering -- the fervent search for rape articles to link to him.

[Robb]

6. The desperate attempt to make the story about the messengers rather than the message continues.

Again I say, Wikileaks yay, Assange boo.

[bluestate10]

10. Assange is morally flawed. If I were he, I would be flying to Sweden with a

team of lawyers to clear my name. many on DU would gladly contribute to paying for the lawyers, but after hearing of Assange's antics to evade justice, the DU member would defer, I prefer to spend my money on truly nobel causes.

[polmaven]

12. I highly doubt

that Mr. Assange will need other people to pay his legal expenses.

[bluestate10]

14. All righty. Book him on the next plane to Sweden. Of course, don't expect Assange

to show up at the gate.

[polmaven]

25. I agree.

n/t

[bluestate10]

9. Assange can prove his mettle by going to Sweden with a team of lawyers.

And sitting to answer questions about his activities. Last I heard,Assange was begging the Australian PM to use diplomatic cover to pull him out of Great Britain ahead of a potential extradition order to Sweden being handed down. Sorry, Assange's conduct fails the smell test.

[bluestate10]

7. The defense of Assange.

Can become disconnected from both reality and moral grounding. Given that by and large it is decent and good hearted people doing the vigorous and unreasonable defense is even more baffling. The defense of the publishing of the faces and names of Assange's accusers all over the web was particularly disheartening.

[bluestate10]

3. Julian Assange, lionized as a purveyor of pure truth by some.

Must man up and step forward to face accusations of rape IN Sweden. Only then should he be taken seriously. But, Assange is begging the Australian PM to bring him home to Australia, so Assange maning up does not appear to be an option for Assange.

[trumad]

5. He hasn't been formally charged...

so why does he have to face anyone?

[bluestate10]

8. Assange has not been formally charged because he refuses to go

to Sweden to answer questions that will allow prosecutors determine whether he should be charged. You used the clever chicken first-egg first argument. No civilized justice system is comfortable with charging a person in absentia, although that should be done if Assange continues to stonewall the investigation of the allegations.

[Fumesucker]

11. I know of one state that will kill your ass "in absentia"..

[bluestate10]

13. You jumped the tracks to a completely different subject. Assange can answer questions,

or he can continue to stonewall.

[Fumesucker]

15. Eh, I was responding to your statement ...

"No civilized justice system is comfortable with charging a person in absentia"..

I guess the justice system in the USA is not civilized then is my point.

[bluestate10]

16. Pay attention. I stated "comfortable".

Great angst and analysis goes into the US charging someone in absentia, or going after them with drones. My basic point stands.

To get back to the subject. If Assange is innocent and 100% sure of that, he would have no problem going to Sweden and sitting down with his lawyers and Swedish prosecutors. The fighting of an extradition request by Assange and Assange's request to to Australian PM to use diplomatic protocol to pull Assange out of Great Britain ahead of an extradition ruling strikes this poster as rather odd behavior from a person that many on DU consider a saint.

[Fumesucker]

19. So people are charged in absentia then..

Glad we settled that..

Innocent people are convicted of crimes every day and Assange would be a fool not to suspect a lack of impartiality on the part of the Swedish authorities in the current witch hunt political atmosphere.

Try as you might you cannot separate the rape charges from the political maelstrom that's swirling around Assange, if nothing else the timing of the charges makes a dispassionate observer wonder as to the motivations of those charges.

[Robb]

20. Sort of like if they quarterback were accused of rape just before the homecoming game.

[Fumesucker]

21. We all know that the USA would never use dirty tricks to silence an awkward critic..

:eyes:

[Robb]

23. No, we do it all the time.

However, it works. I'd note the rape allegations never had a shot at silencing anything.

The difficult position Assange's supporters are in is an unwillingness to entertain the notion that the ability of a man to throw a perfect spiral 100 yards does not preclude the possibility he is flawed.

[elias49]

26. Oh no! Assange is flawed????

I support Assange 100%. Maybe because I, too, am 'flawed'.
How about you? Still flawless?

[Robb]

28. I'm always surprised there's never a defense offered.

The argument seems like "I can't be tried for robbing the bank because if I go to jail the other inmates will be mean to me."

[elias49]

35. WTF?

You're losing it.

[bluestate10]

40. NO. He is NOT losing it.

The claim that Assange will be railroaded if he goes to Sweden with lawyers to answer prosecutor's questions where those prosecutors have legal authority is losing it, and absurd. Sweden, of all nations sans Norway, would risk it's stout reputation internationally to railroad an innocent man due to his political activities?

[Fumesucker]

46. Sweden approved US rendition flights both from and through Sweden..

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/7548149-sweden-had-approved-us-rendition-flights-both-from-and-through-sweden

[bluestate10]

55. You should re-read the article that you posted.

It does not support your claim that Sweden, as a country of many institutions, knowingly and idly stood by while the US transported prisoners to torture enclaves.

[Fumesucker]

58. From the article...

Ahmed Agiza was rendered from Sweden to Egypt by U.S. agents through Bromma airport. However the U.S. agents were assisted by the Swedish secret service. He was tortured in Egypt and sentenced to 25 years later reduced to 15. His lawyers sued in Sweden for damages and won. He was awarded 330,000 Euros--but is still in jail!

The Swedish government was also directly involved. The rendition was approved by Anna Lindh who was at the time the Minister of Foreign affairs but also the minister of Justice. Lindh was later assassinated. No doubt the moral of that is that those who live by extra-judicial punishment may also die by it.

[Fumesucker]

27. Ah, so it's Assange "supporters" you have a problem with..

That's what I thought.

I haven't paid enough attention to the issue to have come to a firm conclusion either way..


And I had no idea that Assange could throw a perfect spiral for a hundred yards, it's amazing the things you can learn on DU.

[Robb]

30. Tangentially, yes.

Inasmuch as hero worship as a cultural phenomenon interests me. It's always the other guy who's engaging in it, you'll notice.

[Fumesucker]

33. People who get beyond puberty emotionally lose the need for heroes..

It comes with realizing that one's own parents are human beings with flaws rather than flawless archetypes.

Interesting that you see those who support the cable leaks as being hero worshipers, it reveals much more about you than it does those you purport to analyze.

[Robb]

34. And perhaps that you draw no distinction between

...supporters of Assange and supporters of the leaks says much as well. :hi:

[Fumesucker]

39. Assange is certainly the public face of Wikileaks..

It's much easier to attack the messenger than the message, isn't it?

[Robb]

41. Your argument fails, since I'm on record here supporting the message.

[Fumesucker]

43. Where did I say you were the one attacking the message?

But the government and a great many very powerful people are certainly lined up to attack the messenger and you seem to be fine with helping that effort.

[Robb]

53. Sort of an anti-appeal to authority, then.

An argument that, while popular, is every bit the fallacy.

[Fumesucker]

56. You failed to point out where I said you were the one attacking the message..

Perhaps you should try again.

Considering motivations has nothing to do with appealing to authority or anti-authority, it cannot be denied there are very strong motivations on the part of extremely powerful individuals and organizations swirling around Assange and Wikileaks.

[Robb]

62. Then I appreciate your wholly uninvested, if thorough, responses

...to something you've not been interested enough in to research fully. :D

[Fumesucker]

63. Eh, I'm just bored and looking for an argument..

Thanks for helping me out.. :hi:

[bluestate10]

42. The poster stated earlier on that he 100% supported the leaks.

But had qualms about Assange as a person. Did you not read that? Or did you simply ignore the statement? What I see on DU is Assange worship, so either many DUers are locked in puberty, or your claim that there is no hero worship of Assange while ignoring of his flaws is taking place is a false claim.

[Fumesucker]

48. No, what you see on DU is suspicion of government's motives..

On a case involving someone who is politically highly charged.

If the US can destroy Assange personally it will give pause to anyone else that might think of doing something similar.

[bluestate10]

57. I suspect that the sky is going to fall on Sunday. Looks nasty out. Take cover.

My suspicion is as valid as any that you have stated. You can dismiss it, but in doing so, you must dismiss your own. The mere belief that not a single person in government would go public if the US or Sweden railroaded Assange, on it's face is astounding.

[Fumesucker]

60. And if Iraq didn't have WMDs the belief that not a single person would go public..

When the US government tried to say that they did is on its face astounding..

[treestar]

31. That's true. And who can be a "purveyor of pure truth" just by

obtaining and releasing another country's classified information?

This rape charge is gold to him - it allows him an opening to make it about himself and his alleged victimization.

[WinkyDink]

37. Did I miss something? Are you suggesting any leaked documents have been forged?

[bluestate10]

45. Where did I make that claim? I have mentioned no documents.

And frankly, don't give a rat's ass about leaked documents. My issue is Assange not answering to allegations of rape forthrightly and the activities of some to demonetize Assange's accusers.

[tekisui]

17. Unrec for stupid headline.

[Robb]

18. So you like the article then.

:D

[bluestate10]

47. Does not like the article, but can't refute it. nt

[myrna minx]

22. Wow - using rape as a punch line to score a zinger is uh, not cool. unrec. n/t

[Robb]

24. Take it up with Anna-Klara Bratt.

[elias49]

29. Take it up with Anna-Klara Bratt?

editor of the online weekly magazine Feministiskt Perspektiv,??

Why? And should I care what some extreme feminist has to say about a LEGAL issue?
We're not having a discussion about social mores here.
If it wasn't for fear of being extradited myself I'd say "Fuck her"

[Robb]

32. Yes, who cares what those "extreme feminists" think.

[elias49]

38. Seriously.

Imagine the chagrin if it turns out that Assange's (somewhat reluctant)'accuser' was 'on top' during their evening of sex?
Oh snap!
Changes everything, huh?

[bluestate10]

50. That may be evidence that would clear Assange of potential charges.

If the women were on top, the argument of unwitting participation is weakened. So, why doesn't Assange go to Sweden with a team of lawyers and prove your dream? Begging the Australian PM to use diplomatic protocol to prevent extradition by a third country (Great Britain) is rather extreme activity if the women were indeed on top, wouldn't you think?

[mzteris]

59. ah - the real reason you fear

feminists . . .

[bluestate10]

49. The woman seems to have spent a lot of time studying legal response to rape.

Dismissing her is ill advised and shows philosophical bias.

[elias49]

52. Not unlike HER bias

or yours apparently.
I'm not allowed to have an opinion?
:wow:

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vanlassie]

36. Wait- how long did he hang out in Sweden before leaving?

[bluestate10]

51. Assange left before the issues that are behind the extradition request

were uncovered by prosecutors. An innocent player who knows in his heart that he is 100% innocent would be running back to Sweden with teams of layers to have his day defending his honor. But Assange's recent activity centers around pushing for the Australian PM to use diplomatic protocol to block POTENTIAL extradition to Sweden. Great Britain may decide that the extradition request by Sweden is baseless. So, why is Assange's drawers in knots about the possibility that he will be on a plane to Sweden, in handcuffs, to answer rape allegations. BTW, as pointed out by someone else, the rape allegations stand alone from whether Wikileaks leaking confidential cables is right or wrong, mixing the two is a deliberate attempt to muddy the moral ground on which decisions of legality should be made.

[MilesColtrane]

44. Prepare for the dogpile, my good man.

[The Straight Story]

61. Here is a link to entire 100 page complaint (scanned in) - Not in english though

What the hell is wrong with the people over there, don't they know I can't read their language? Sheesh :)

http://info.publicintelligence.net/AssangeSexAllegations.pdf