Here's a leak that screwed things up for the good guys.

[pnwmom]

Proving that "transparency" isn't always helpful.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x353186

[Fumesucker]

1. It seems to me if that came from Wikileaks then it would be a government cable..

If it was a government cable then Bush most likely knew what was on it to start with.

[pnwmom]

2. Doesn't matter where the leak came from -- it wrecked the plans

of those who wanted to file charges against Bush while he was in the country.

[Cleita]

3. Better we know what is going on even if it screws up

some short term plans. Now Bush is going to be paranoid about leaving the country which is a good thing. Because when the time comes to indict him, it won't be hard to find him.

[pnwmom]

4. I disagree. No charges will ever be filed against him in the U.S.

But something might have happened in Switzerland.

Nothing good came out of this leak.

[Cleita]

6. What you are arguing for is that the means justifies the ends.

When you stoop to that line of reasoning, you are no better than him lying about WMD to invade Iraq, again the means justifies the ends type of reasoning. Nothing would have happened in Switzerland either. Their country is run by big banking too. My hopes are for the Hague. I believe eventually some country will be able to bring a case to the Hague condemning him and Cheney for war crimes. I'm confident it will happen

[pnwmom]

9. What I am arguing against is the idea that absolute transparency

is necessary or even desirable.

[Cleita]

10. So you prefer that decisions be made in back rooms

and that you have no say in them? I'm shocked.

[pnwmom]

11. I live in the national capitol for "process."

To bring the whole community into decision-making. And that is good to a point. But once in a while, you have to go into "executive session." And I trust the people I vote for to make the right decisions in those situations.

[Fumesucker]

12. Not everyone is as trusting of elected officials as you are..

With pretty good reason I think, the use of secrecy to cover up stupidity and venality is hardly something that is either new or likely to stop any time soon.

[pnwmom]

14. Getting 300,000,000 citizens to approve every act is impossible.

And conducting world diplomacy without some measure of secrecy is equally impossible.

This is why we elect representatives and appoint diplomats. If we don't like the work they do, we can fire them.

[BeFree]

16. Eh?

You wrote earlier: ""I trust the people I vote for to make the right decisions in those situations.""

Now you write: ""If we don't like the work they do, we can fire them.'"

Here I ask: These folks you trust so much and are willing to give your power too (and mine too) ...
have they put bush on trial yet? Have they satisfied you by their works?
If not, why even suggest they get any pass? Are you ready to fire them?

[pnwmom]

17. This is the problem of living in a democracy.

Just because I vote to "fire" someone, doesn't mean 50% +1 of the population does.

And the problem of living in a complicated world is just because I agree with a representative on 80% of the issues doesn't mean I agree on the other 20%. Sometimes that 20% is a big enough reason to vote against someone; other times it's not.

[BeFree]

18. Point is

Do you think it is ok that bush is still free?
And that those people whom you trust and have allowed him to go free, get a pass from you?

[pnwmom]

20. How did you get from my OP to this post? You're not making sense at all.

I'm not happy that -- because of a stupid leak -- no charges were filed against Bush. And you're accusing me of thinking it's okay that Bush is still free.

If Obama had come into office and immediately set about attacking Bush, he would never have gotten a single other thing done. Our country was in far too precarious a position for Obama to be spending most his time looking backwards.

On the other hand, if an action in a country like Switzerland succeeded, it could draw attention to Bush and put pressure on Congress to follow suit.

[Fumesucker]

22. A leak wouldn't stop charges being filed against Bush..

If it was the US government filing charges..

But we all know that will never happen.

[BeFree]

23. heh

So, you are giving them a pass for allowing bush to go free. Because it just isn't important enough?

But then you turn around and want some other country to go out of its way and do what needs to be done?

If some other country can do it, why can't we?

[pnwmom]

24. It's often easier in another country; that's the way things work.

[Fumesucker]

21. How are we supposed to know how they are doing their job?

If what they do is held under secrecy?

It's basically impossible to evaluate an employee if you never know a big chunk of what they are doing.

[JDPriestly]

5. It does matter where the leak came from.

If it came from Wikileaks, it was a government cable, and Bush probably knew about it anyway.

It most likely came from members of the press who had been advised of it under embargo (what a crazy idea). This was a leak intended to stop those who wanted to prosecute Bush. That is not a leak of a government matter. It is a leak of a private matter. And that "leak" may have been actually government spying on the ngo that was going to serve Bush while in the country.

[tekisui]

7. There you go making sense.

[Bonobo]

8. Start judging based on your personal interpretation of who is a "good guy"

and you are on a slope that is so slippery that it will lead to disaster.

[caraher]

13. Philosophical issues aside...

it's a shame he didn't go and find himself brought up on torture charges. I hope we can agree on that much!

[pnwmom]

15. Would that have been satisfying to see that happen to him?

Sigh.

[Pholus]

19. I dunno. I've been told many times that if you've done nothing wrong you have no fears.

Works for the government too, I'd imagine.

I used to not like David Brin's Transparent Society but I am starting to come to the conclusion that it is the only thing that can save democracy in this country. Surveillance without warrant or probable cause and the sifting of data/private communications in order to profile and investigate are now accepted as a government/employer right by a large fraction of the population.

So privacy is dead. We all belong in the spotlight now. It's much easier at this point just to make sure that the powers with control over us also have their actions scrutinized and in the public eye. No shadows, no back rooms, no privileged confidential right to avoid scrutiny. After all, it is much easier to behave ethically when you live with the certainty that everything you say and do will become a matter of public record at some point. Sunlight keeps us honest and true to what we say we are or reveals us for the hypocrites that we might be.

As far as this trip, don't even kid yourself that it would have went anywhere. TPTB wouldn't stand for it. I'd expect that the folks filing charges would shortly be outed in the media for some kind of sex scandal or for links to terrorists or other unsavory sorts. Leaked by an anonymous source working for the Govt of course.