The Egyptian Uprising Is a Direct Response to Ruthless Global Capitalism

[Better Believe It]

The Egyptian Uprising Is a Direct Response to Ruthless Global Capitalism
Economic decline at the hands of 'hot' money has driven Egyptians' discontent
By Nomi Prins
February 4, 2011

The revolution in Egypt is as much a rebellion against the painful deterioration of economic conditions as it is about opposing a dictator, though they are linked. That's why President Hosni Mubarak's announcement that he intends to stick around until September was met with an outpouring of rage.

From 2004 to 2009, Egypt attracted $42 billion worth of foreign capital into its borders, as one of the top investment “destinations” in the Middle East and Africa. “Hot” money entry was made easy, with no restrictions on foreign investment or repatriation of profits, and no taxes on dividends, capital gains or corporate bond interest. As a result, volume on the Egyptian stock market swelled more than twelve-fold between 2004 and the first half of 2009.

In March 2010, in an effort to keep foreign capital coming in, Egypt’s Ministry of Investment presented the country's virtues to investors in a glossy “Invest in Egypt” brochure. The document proudly cited Egypt as being one of the world’s top 10 “Reformers,” as reported by the World Bank and International Finance Corporation’s (IFC). The World Bank’s definition of "reformer" has nothing to do with conditions for citizens, and everything to do with the degree and speed to which “hot” international money can zoom in and out of a country. Egypt had made the top 10 “Reformers” list for four out of the past five years (a distinction shared with Colombia, where urban unemployment has risen to over 13 percent).

Citizens protesting in the streets from Greece to England, and more demonstrably, from Tunisia to Egypt, may be revolting for national reasons and against individual governments, but they share a common bond. They are revolting against a world that lines the pockets of rich deal-makers while sticking the tab to ordinary people. That bond is global. Related protests could reach Colombia and Ghana -- and maybe someday, the United States.

Read the full article at:

http://www.alternet.org/world/149793/the_egyptian_uprising_is_a_direct_response_to_ruthless_global_capitalism/?page=entire

[leftstreet]

1. K&R

[Hannah Bell]

2. kr. but it started even earlier, during the sadat regime, which opened up egypt

to "free trade".

Carter outlined to Begin his program, which consisted of five points: (1) achieve a comprehensive peace affecting all of Israel's neighbors: (2) peace to be based on UN Resolution 242: (3) peace would involve open borders and free trade; (4) peace would call for Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories to secure borders; (5) a Palestinian entity (but not an independent nation) should be created. Begin responded that he could accept all of these points accept the Palestinian entity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_Accords.

The Bread Riots

The final and most recent instance of mass uprising came ten years later in January 18-19, 1977, after Egyptian President Anwar Sadat announced an end to all subsidies on flour, rice and cooking oil as well as any upcoming state employee pay raises and bonuses, all of which had been established under Nasser. This policy shift came in response to conditions placed by the World Bank on its contemplated loan to Egypt, aimed at relieving the country’s bloated deficit.

From the 1952 Revolution until the 1977 subsidy cuts, much had changed within Egypt’s political and economic scenes. Nasser had long passed and with him Egypt’s state development and industrialization project. New policies of economic openness had taken center stage. While these changes brought progress and economic growth, their effects were felt less within the productive sectors, such as manufacturing, and more in the areas of petroleum and tourism. An increase in remittances from Egyptians working abroad also contributed to the country’s supposed economic growth. While the Sadat period also saw an increase in trade and exports, the increase in luxury imports was unparalleled, reaching over 300 times the level of exports during Sadat’s rule. With the establishment of these free trade policies and increases in imports, the government sunk deep into a budget deficit. At the same time, sovereign debt, which had increased both during and after Nasser’s presidency, had accrued significant interest, putting Egypt in dire need of immediate financial assistance.

Subsidies, which had been established under Nasser in an attempt to contribute to economic equity and development, had now become a burden on the state budget. In order to control its increasing deficit crisis, Egypt looked to the World Bank for financial help. As part of the conditions for its assistance, the World Bank demanded that Egypt cancel its subsidy program. This was a potentially destabilizing move for the Egyptian government, as millions of Egyptians could ill afford to live without these subsidies.

In response to these developments, Egyptians protested in the hundreds of thousands, invoking Nasser’s name and chanting “Oh hero of the crossing, where is our breakfast?” To this day, this event is known in Egypt as “The Bread Riots,” attesting to the extreme pressures these World Bank conditions placed on daily subsistence needs in the country. While the government managed to curb these riots with an iron fist, it nevertheless succumbed to the people’s will by maintaining the subsidies, raises and bonuses. In many ways, the neoliberal policies that began under Anwar Sadat, which continue to this day, played as much of a role in inspiring the January 25th Day of Wrath as they did the Bread Riots over 30 years ago.

http://muftah.org/?p=697.


their food production declined as subsidized food undercut local producers.

similarly with small industrial production, small household goods, etc.

that's why there are few jobs, & crap jobs, & so many live in cairo.

[sabrina 1]

7. Thank you for that information ~

I hope that Global Capitalism is beginning to crumble. Like all other 'isms' before it. It is, imo, an evil system. They got too greedy and as a result, things are escalating at a faster rate it seems. If Egypt can finally get a real democratic government from this, it could be the beginning of a real turnaround. But, the Captialists won't give up easily.

[rhett o rick]

3. k&r

[defendandprotect]

4. "Capitalism is an evil. And you can't regulate an evil." When we all recognize that ....

we'll have have somewhere to go --

The tremendous support of the Egyptian protesters, each for one another --

even consideration for letting the attacking Mubarak "thugs" live -- give

evidence to what we must do when our day comes.

UNITE from beginning to end UNITE.

Whatever we do in future, we must all be doing it together --

Amazingly, there was also quite an element of suprise in this revolt --

but the opposition responded by "buying time" -- time to frighten the rest

of the populace so that they wouldn't join the protesters. Had a million or

more Egyptians kept coming to add to the numbers in Liberation Square, it may

have become impossible for Mubarak to respond to. And what if that had happened

every day?

We keep talking about how few the elite are and how many the people -- but we

don't seem to use that strength at all.

[slay]

5. Huge +1

[social_critic]

11. I think the revolution is about freedom and ability to start your own business

I don't get the sense the protesters are communists. My sense is they want to be free and able to start their own business. Capitalism is a pretty good system, most people prefer private property and to have the ability to get ahead. Plus we have to add, systems like the Soviet Union's have been shown to be a real disaster. They not only abuse human rights, they also lead to poverty and ruin the environment.

[defendandprotect]

39. Capitalism isn't "freedom" ... it's servitude for the many and huge profits for the few ...

And Democratic Socialism is not "communism" -- despite T-BAGGERS' delusions!


Capitalism is suicidal exploitation of nature, animal-life, natural resources -

and even humans --

--It has polluted our air, drinking water, oceans, soil --

--It has so seriously damaged our environment that it has produced Global Warming --

which is altering nature's systems so seriously that wind patterns and ocean patterns

are being changed. In NJ, we already have temps averaging 25 degrees above normal - maybe more.

--Corporations have already bought your government and your elected officials --

the corruption capitalism has brought to government has turned our government agencies upside

down in their intent -- from the EPA to the FDA, from USDA to our FCC -- including destruction

of public education and any affordable health care.

--We have banks now charging 10% more than the "vigorish" charged by the Mafia -- and our

Congress has no response to it. Rather they have now changed our bankruptcy laws to make it

even more difficult for citizens to free themselves from the enslavement of credit card debt.

--In seeking health care, insurance companies are providing higher and higher premiums along

with less and less care. The rates are so extreme that now 50 million of our citizens have

no health care coverage.

--Everyone of the Big Pharma drug companies has been involved in ripping off Medicare --

and despite charging Americans 2X, 3X, 4X, 5X and even 6X more than what they charge citizens

in other countries for the same drugs, our Congress refuses to act to protect citizens.

--Let's also keep in mind that not only do we suffer capitalism's corruption and crime --

we also are called upon to bail them out when their recklessness catches up to them -- and,

btw, destroys our "economy."

--Enron pretty much bankrupted California and its state pensions while running its electricity

SCAM which was criminal in its intent -- punitively criminal!

Certainly there is nothing to recommend capitalism and it can only be seen as an evil which

most of the world recognizes.


We are also still suffering near-depression conditions and huge long term unemployment due to

capitalists pre-owning and pre-bribing our elected officials to overturn 60 years of New Deal

regulations which protected us from these crimes.

Our founders feared the power of capital -- rightly so!



PS:

No one has any problem with anyone running a small business at a fair profit.

As for private property, that's probably due a thread on its own -- but under capitalism,

I'm sure you understand that at some point ONE person will own everything.

And that's pretty much where we are moving now with ownership of water, seeds, DNA.

I've also worked in real estate and I can tell you I've never seen the creator's name

on a DEED.

The earth/planet is a commonwealth and notions of private property are destructive.

The only property you can truly own is that which you can carry on your back.

[chervilant]

73. Wow.

Awesome post, defendandprotect. Willful ignorance, coupled with intellectual arrogance, must be rather stultifying for that pitiable person.

[social_critic]

88. But I don't want to live in a government owned apartment

The elevators don't work, the heating system sucks, windows don't get fixed when they're broken, and the hallways smell like pee.

I'd rather keep notions of private property. Somehow, it makes me feel better if I own my car and my home. And I assure you, my uncle will get really really mad if you try to take his bakery. He has heen at it for many years, and it's his life. You try to nationalize his bakery, and he's going to get violent, I think.

[riderinthestorm]

130. You've chosen to hide your profile (why?) but that's not been my experience

In true socialist democracies like Scandinavia there aren't any problems with government housing. The US system/model is flawed because we contracted out service to private contractors who fucked up the housing.

We have no way of knowing if we had kept control if it would be as brilliantly managed as Social Security for example, or the VA.

There's nothing that says it has to be either/or. We need a balance of regulation and free enterprise, socialist governmental control and private entrepreneurial spirit.

The Scandinavian countries have the highest satisfaction rating in the world - and they are socialist democracies.

[social_critic]

140. Do I even have a profile? I didn't know I was supposed to show anything

The capitalist democracies of Scandinavia don't have much government owned housing. Where did you get the idea? I travel there quite often (I'm an evil business consultant).

I agree the capitalist democracies of scandinavia are pretty good. I do find the trolls they sell in Oslo a tad expensive, though.

[defendandprotect]

155. ... thank you -- and from the last poll, Americans want what Scandinavians have--!!

:)

[social_critic]

159. Americans want it all, my friend

I suppose Americans want what the Scandinavians have up to a point. But when I mention having gasoline sold at $8 per gallon I get skewered (OK, I got a couple of scars from close calls but they haven't caught me yet). Americans also feel they got to tell others what to do.

I think a lot of this superman mentality we have in the US was caused by Buffon, a Frenchman who used to run around saying people in the Americas (including the colonists) were inferior, weak, and pansies because the air here was more humid. Buffon, wrote a book, and it was a best seller, so he became famous. Unfortunately, he died before he could see a moose skeleton Ben Franklin shipped to him to prove him the Americas did produce bigger animals than Europe (Ben Franklin's moose got there late because they forgot to load it at the last moment on a France-bound ship, which shows the butterfly effect does exist, we have become what we are because a dock worker dropped a loading list during lunch).

So Americans have spent hundreds of years fighting the Buffonesque idea that they were pansies - all of this caused by high humidity, a lost moose skeleton, and Buffon's premature death).

This means Americans today love their wars, and of course make jokes about the French soldiers being taught to surrender in boot camp. I really hate Buffon, he's the reason we took 40,000 casualties in Iraq proving we were macho enough to boot Saddam and conquer the country with a small, undermanned and underequipped army.

[defendandprotect]

184. We already pay as much as the Swiss pay for their luxurious health care ... but we get none of it!!

Americans do not love war -- this is the largest anti-war movement ever --

except it's standing still for Obama because he's a Demcorat, evidently.

And, internationally, the largest anti-war movement ever!

[social_critic]

195. Baloney, Americans love war, and there's no anti war movement

Buddy, if you had been at Kent State, you wouldn't be telling me about this imaginary anti war movement you got going. What we got now is like the Tiny Tim of antiwar movements, my friend.

Last time I went to an anti war protest I was there with my family and 8 others. One of these strangers had a Free Mumia sign, another had a pink dress and was shouting "Equality for Women", and the other six were confused and didn't know exactly what the protest was about, but they had shown up to see if there were cute chicks in the crowd.

My sister went to one of those big anti war protests in NY, and she said they got her herded like cattle, and now she's on a no fly list because she beat a horse mounted cop with her sign. She tends to be a little crazy.

So here we are. Our famous anti war movement grinds on, and we got wars going on in two countries at the same time. Whoopee.

[defendandprotect]

207. You remember what happened at Kent State ...?

Then you understand why right wing violence once again succeeded in ending

the protests -- parents cared about their children and weren't going to have

them gunned down by Nixon.

And those were the days BEFORE widespread police brutality, free speech zones,

and complete interference with the right to free assembly. Last I looked they

were "netting" whole areas without regard to anyone handicapped, people with

children/carriages -- or elderly. Total disregard for humans.


My sister went to one of those big anti war protests in NY, and she said they got her herded like cattle, and now she's on a no fly list because she beat a horse mounted cop with her sign. She tends to be a little crazy.

So here we are. Our famous anti war movement grinds on, and we got wars going on in two countries at the same time. Whoopee.


I wonder what your sister has to say about you -- and I'm sure she's pleased with what you have

to say about her.

Presume you haven't been at the immense anti-war turn outs in NYC -- all peaceful despite a

few attempts by planted instigators to try to create violence -- and are unaware of the

underreporting of liberal events? Including internationally.


Bye --

[HEyHEY]

237. There was no wide-spread police brutality in the 60s? Well, we know someone isn't african american..

[defendandprotect]

242. Oops! Didn't mean to say anything like that -- !!

There has always been police brutality -- as far as I'm aware.

And certainly the horrific police brutality in the South shocked Americans

awake to a large degree --

But I was trying to expose the brutality vs the VN war protesters --

where we actually, imo, had murder of students --

And the "police riot" on protesters at the Chicago Convention -- which the cameras

were forced to turn from. Only one man stood up for the protesters and the coverage

Senator Abe Ribicoff --!!

With the nation divided by the Vietnam War and with the assassinations of King and Robert F. Kennedy earlier that year serving as backdrop, the city became a battleground for anti-war protesters who vowed to shut down the convention

At the convention itself, Sen. Abraham A. Ribicoff (D-Conn.), went off-script during his speech nominating George McGovern, saying, "And with George McGovern as President of the United States, we wouldn’t have to have Gestapo tactics in the streets of Chicago." Ribicoff also tried to introduce a motion to shut down the convention and move it to another city. Many conventioneers applauded Ribicoff's remarks but an indignant Mayor Daley tried to shout down the speaker. As television cameras focused on Daley, lip-readers throughout America claimed to have observed him shouting, "Fuck you, you Jew son of a bitch." Defenders of the mayor would later claim that he was calling Ribicoff a faker.,<10><11> a charge denied by Daley and refuted by Mike Royko's reporting.<12> A federal commission, led by local attorney and party activist Daniel Walker, later investigated the events surrounding the convention and described them as a "police riot." Daley's supporters challenged Walker's credibility because of his well-known opposition to Daley and Chicago machine politics.

And we seem now to have widespread complacency about Free Speech Zones and attacks on protesters.

[HEyHEY]

245. I know that's what you meant, was just winding ya up!

;)

[social_critic]

252. I believe the students shot at kent state where all white

Police brutality is applied to people of all races. Based on my personal experience, in some states it is applied more frequently to blacks and other non whites.

One reason why I graduated from school with honors was my keen desire to rub my superiority on the faces of the racist rednecks who discriminated agaisnt me in school. When I got the highest SAT scores in school I shoved them down their throats, that sure felt good.

The only problem i see with this attitude is the fact that I spent the rest of my life as a cocky arrogant little guy who jumped at the chance to show others I had a much better grasp of things than they did. I do apologize if this shows sometimes, but I can't stand people who think because I'm a little bit dark skinned I must be stupid.

[defendandprotect]

154. Have you read about the problems with the Taj Mahal Embassies we built in ME?

Private contractors - -

and we're building another one right now -- more than $750 million --

just for openers!

Do you remember Walter Reed Hospital -- our showcase Vet's hospital?

Who OWNS their own car any longer -- everyone is renting them as far as I can see?

OWN a home -- more than a million homes in America were foreclosed on last year --

and more expected this year!

We're not worried about your Uncle's bakery -- we're worried about how much more

it's going to cost us to keep Wall Street and the Banksters in business!!

How much more are you willing to spend to bail out capitalism again?

[social_critic]

160. Just imagine if we had used the New York Transit Authority to build those embassies

I know those private contractors suck, but if we had used a government owned company to build them it would have been a lot worse. They would have had $1000 toilet seat covers for real! At least this way we only get billed for the seat covers, but they're just made out of plastic and the money ends up in the pockets of a private contractor who has to pay income tax on the filthy profits they make in the first place.

[defendandprotect]

185. What you are describing is corporate crime ... and a lack of knowledge re transit system...

Who destroyed trolley systems post WWII -- ?

I'm sure you know that story -- let me know if you need help on that!

And, btw, this is pretty far now into disingenuous -- so you're close to being on "ignore."


Further, there was nothing more successful than NYC's mass transit systems -- until they

came under attack from those who wanted more cars on the streets and less mass transportation!

And that system still stands today -- more than 100 years old -- and still surviving the abuse

privatizers have delivered to it!

[social_critic]

194. We are discussing the ability of a government owned corporation to build something

I think you're confused again. In the US, when a state agency "builds a train track", it doesn't really build the train track. It has private enterprise do it. Therefore the outfits you have in your mind don't really build things, they run things built for them.

My thesis, which I propose to you for your careful consideration, is that building is done more efficiently by a private outfit, and not by a state owned outfit. This is what i called keeping the means of production in private hands. I don't have a problem if the IRS wants to sit in a building owned by the US Federal government. I do think it's a bit inefficient to have a government corporation created to put up buildings.

I guess we're like primates in the jungle, dividing. You are marching in your direction, we are marching in ours. You want to evolve into a state owned society, I prefer to see what i call efficient and well regulated capitalism.

You may put me on ignore if you want to. What can I do about this threat? Stop writing what I think? I can't. Why would you deny me my freedom of expression? Are you afraid of what I write?

[defendandprotect]

206. Again, anywhere you look, private industry is ripping off government ... whether Taj Mahal

building projects, privatized Blackwater military, or Big Pharma Drug companies

defrauding Medicare.

Let's look also at private health care with its 26% overhead --

vs government's administration of Social Securit at 3% costs --

Again -- you're in denial of crimes of capitalism -- necessities for bailing out

one corporation after another --


I guess we're like primates in the jungle, dividing. You are marching in your direction, we are marching in ours. You want to evolve into a state owned society, I prefer to see what i call efficient and well regulated capitalism.

This is not about a state-owned anything -- it's about a commonwealth -- and a people's

government -- and people owning government and its products.

You may put me on ignore if you want to. What can I do about this threat? Stop writing what I think? I can't. Why would you deny me my freedom of expression? Are you afraid of what I write?

I will put you on "ignore" as this thread ends --

PLEASE, keep writing -- I think it's important for everyone here to know what you have to say

and how you think!

Why would I be afraid of what you write?

I'll be puting you on "ignore" because you are disingenuous -- and boring.

[social_critic]

208. Governments don't have products other than laws and regulations

Boy are you confused.

[riderinthestorm]

217. Yes. They do have products. Roads, bridges, public libraries

courts and many, many other things too numerous to mention. You are the confused one. Your attempts to bring a libertarian slant to the discussion on a DEMOCRATIC discussion board aren't valid.

[social_critic]

223. Those are not PRODUCTS, they are services

Governments don't build roads, bridges, public libraries, etc. Governments issue contracts to others to build them. Then governments use the things built by PRIVATE industry to provide a service - such as giving you a book to read. I'm not bringing a libertarian slant to anything. I'm trying to teach you the basics of the way things are.

Now that you understand, I want to know if you REALLY believe the government should own construction companies with bulldozers, dump trucks, and so on, and build courthouses, roads, and bridges. If you say you do, then I can discuss with you why I think it's a bad idea. But we can't even engage in a discussion if you are confused.

[riderinthestorm]

230. My county government paves roads, installs lights, and other shit.

Not sure where you live but my government actually does build stuff. My husband spent 25 years as a county employee. I've watched garages, roads, parking lots, light systems, public use facilities and more being built by government employees. And they do a damn fine job. Your belief that everything is contracted out is misguided and naive. I've seen it personally and professionally.

[social_critic]

251. Social Critic Corrects Himself

You are right, in the US some minor works are carried out by county government. They do a fine job. The question is whether they are cost effective or not. And whether when they are scaled up they lose their efficiency. I'm not a one prescription solver. If there are government niches where government does do a good job, then there's no reason why they should not do it. For example, I don't think it's sensible to have police work done by a private outfit.

I always emphasize to all of you a pragmatic approach as well as the ability to listen to good points made by others. In this case you point out a sensible solution for your particular county. But to extrapolate from this and say the Egyptian revolution is a result of a failure of global capitalism is a very very long reach.

[defendandprotect]

220. Governments also CREATE corporations --

[social_critic]

228. Yes they do, and most of the time they don't work very well

There are a few exceptions, of course. But as a general rule, they don't work very well. Consider the Soviet Union, it was full of state owned corporations. They reeked, their products were terrible, they didn't have good repair services, and their employees were treated real bad. Plus they ruined the environment, and made TV shows with lousy scripts, no comedy, and wooden actors.

[riderinthestorm]

236. Oh. My. Gawd! Bad teevee!!!1111! Socialism must die!!111!!! nt

[social_critic]

253. Social Critic says: Bad TV is very important to people

I realize the quality of TV programs in the US is terrible, but there are so many channels, one can dig around a bit and find quality programs. For example, there's this guy called Cenk Uygur on one of the channels who is a real gem. And there's no way a guy like that would ever be allowed to have a show in a repressive communist society.

So you see this isn't just about Who wants to be a millionaire and the desperate housewives. It is about the way a free society does provide more freedom of the press and expression. The USA, of course, has some serious problems (for example, Al Jazeera english is so hard to find), but overall, it doesn't compare.

I also want to point out: do you realize the great majority of the people living in Russia and Eastern Europe do not support communism? They lived under it, and they REALLY hate it. I lived under communism, saw its flaws, and I really hate it.

[HEyHEY]

233. You could do with meeting people who grew up under communism

[social_critic]

238. He sure could - but he won't listen to us

I'm one of them. A carefully minted Pioneer who could quote Marx, Engels and Lenin, and sang with zeal as we paraded in front of our party leaders, who beamed at us with pride knowing we were their future.

It was a charade, because they knew we knew they knew all we had in mind was getting out as soon as we could, and our parents' lives were more focused on the black market and how to steal something from work to swap for goodies. And of course there was the eternal effort to stay one step ahead of the secret police informers, and the stress of having to keep a straight face in class when we heard all the garbage they taught us.

[HEyHEY]

240. In my old building my heat came on when the government said it would

So, for about three weeks in spring and fall we would be freezing our asses off so cold we didn't want to move. The cheap space heaters were useless. Glad we didn't have an infant.

[defendandprotect]

243. What do you think the private builders "First Kuwaiti Trading & Contracting" ...

The Bush administration initially sought $1.3 billion for the new embassy but Congress has approved $592 million and lawmakers have questioned the cost and size of the complex. (Additional reporting by Richard Cowan)


--------------

have to do with totalitarian communism?

Auditor Faults Work on U.S. Embassy in Iraq

Published: October 26, 2009

BAGHDAD — As the measure of success in Iraq shifts from peacekeeping to reconstruction, one showcase for American aptitude is the new United States Embassy, the most expensive in the world. The embassy compound, which cost more than $700 million to build, covers 104 acres along the Tigris River and was built in a rapid 34 months amid often unstable conditions.

But according to a report issued last week by the State Department’s inspector general, the complex is a monument to shoddy work and incompetent oversight. Walls and walkways are cracking, sewage gas flows back into residences, wiring is substandard, fire protection systems are faulty and other safety provisions are not up to contract specifications.

The report says that construction “was significantly deficient in multiple areas” and may not meet safety codes. It called on the State Department to seek $132 million in damages from the main construction company, First Kuwaiti General Trading and Contracting, which received $470 million for work on the embassy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/world/middleeast/27embassy.html


Blackwater also did it's share of damage --

Whether the USSR or W's corruption in Iraq, it's crime -- and nothing legitimate about it.

[HEyHEY]

244. Because you seem to think that it's capitalism, not corruption that's the issue

I'm all for blaming corruption. But corruption infects all systems.

[defendandprotect]

246. You're comparing totalitarian communism to a private Kuwaiti builder's rip-offs in Iraq?

Dishonest men will always be with us -- as our Founders warned --

even to the extent of a conspiracy between a president and VP.

Capitalism and corruption go hand in hand --

Unregulated capitalism is organized crime --

[HEyHEY]

250. No, you're comparing them. I really don't care about anecdotal evidence

I'm making the point that the corruption has nothing to do with capitalism or communism, it's human nature that's the problem.

[defendandprotect]

259. Kuwait Trading is a PRIVATE corporation ... not communism ..

"Capitalism is an evil. You cannot regulate evil."

Human nature is something we have to live with -- capitalism isn't!

[HEyHEY]

260. You're not even listening, are you?

[social_critic]

255. That's just Bush and his shenanigans

I didn't support the invasion of Iraq (ask Hillary Clinton why she did). I think the whole enterprise is an obscene, immoral, venal and corrupt action, and I sure wish we would declare final victory, get out of there, and then indict and try all the crooks and bastards who had anything to do with it. Won't happen, though.

[HEyHEY]

231. Um, that's a corrupt system you're blaming, not the actual capitalistic system

Most communist countries are far more corrupt than capitalist ones and it seems the real problem is natural human greed and the lack of good oversight of government more than whatever system runs society. My father owned his own business and paid decent wages and earned about as much as someone working for the phone company. Just cause you own your business doesn't mean you're making tons of money.

[defendandprotect]

247. Yes -- and the corrupt system is capitalism ....

Most communist countries are far more corrupt than capitalist ones and it seems the real problem is natural human greed and the lack of good oversight of government more than whatever system runs society. My father owned his own business and paid decent wages and earned about as much as someone working for the phone company. Just cause you own your business doesn't mean you're making tons of money.

You mean totalitarian communist countries -- because we have never had any actual communism

practiced anywhere -- only fascist systems.

And, of course, capitalism's basis is also fascist --

Christian corporatism is the basis of capitalism and begins in northern Italy --

Vatican invented capitalism when Feudalism was no longer sufficient to run their Papal States.

[HEyHEY]

249. Capitalism with oversight is fine.

Just as communism with oversight would likely be fine. But saying true communism has never been tried is as useless as saying true capitalism has never been tried.

[defendandprotect]

258. Full circle back to this: "Capitalism is an evil. You can't regulate an evil"

[HEyHEY]

261. By that standard so is communism

[Prophet 451]

58. Capitalism is NOT a "pretty good system"

It's just the least worst one we've yet come up with.

[social_critic]

74. least worst is pretty good

You got to go with the flow, Prophet. OK, so it's not that good. But we got to make sure these youngsters don't get any weird ideas and we end up serfs in some kind of medieval magic land. I'm too old to be a serf.

[blindpig]

81. That's the funniest fucking thing I've seen in days.

Thanks for the chuckle.

[social_critic]

98. You are welcome

I do try to educate the masses using light banter. Lots of people here don't get it, though. They think these protesters are high brow intellectuals, when the truth is they just want basic things. Free elections, freedom of the press, and of course the ability to own their own store and sell stuff at a profit. Or at least get a decent job where they can work for somebody who makes and sells stuff, preferably with medical, dental and life insurance.

[blindpig]

99. Funny, I didn't see any signs saying "I want a store!"

You really are funny.

Libertarianism is comedy gold as long as ya don't take it seriously. if taken seriously it is a facile excuse for capitalist domination.

You're giving Kafka a serious run for his money.

[bongbong]

100. The old chestnut

I never get tired of it.

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

[social_critic]

108. I want a store is the wrong sign to show at this time

Think about it. You're a poor egyptian, you got to buy some cardboard and paint to make a sign. Are you going to make a sign with "i want a store", even if that's your life's dream? No sir. You write something simple for CNN, like "MUBARAK OUT", or "DICTATOR MUBARAK YOUR TIME IS UP".

These egyptians are smart, first they got to get Mubarak out. Then they need a free press, free elections, and and end to corruption and cronyism. I think they would probably like police who don't behave like Houston cops.

That by itself is a tall order.

They KNOW they won't get a store by holding up a sign. They'll have to talk to their families, get the money together, see if Mahmoud who went to work in Saudi Arabia can give them a loan, and find the locale. But I know egyptians, and that's the way they think - they do want their store.

And please, don't try to link me with Kafka. I take offense when you imply I'm writing on your back with a sharp instrument.

[PhillySane]

114. I think

They just want Mubarak to get the fuck out.

[social_critic]

120. That's about it

A lot of this anti capitalism talk is just young naive folk trying to piggy back on events to make their point. But I just got to keep them straight.

And I do have Egyptian friends - none of which tell me they dream of a communist workers' paradise for Egypt.

[LooseWilly]

141. Recognizing the role of global capital in an economic implosion &#8800; communist propagandizing.

You, old man, are conflating an examination of the capitalist system underpinnings of the situation in Egypt with an argument that those reacting to the economic implosion could only be angry, in the face of a failure of the systems of capitalism for them, if they are communists.

In short... the entire line of argument that you are presenting to these young naive folk is essentially a steaming pile of feces. It is not only incorrect, it is disingenuous.

Please, in future would you get your Egyptian friends to come and post... because this whole "I want a store" bit, let alone the silly notion of "I want health and life insurance"... is worse than the "Leave it to Beaver" that your tone suggests you must've grown up on.

Ohh yeah, instead of asking your "Egyptian friends" about a "communist workers' paradise," try asking them if they'd like an Egypt where "workers have access to the means of production"... otherwise you're just push-polling, old-timer.

[social_critic]

143. What's Leave it to Beaver?

I spent most of my life overseas. I wasn't born in the US, so the leave it to beaver reference is a puzzle.

The Egyptian revolution is about people seeking freedom. My Egyptian friends are kinda busy. They are immigrants in the US, or the children of immigrants. Most of them are Muslims, and Muslims living in the US like to keep WAY below the radar right now. You never know when one of those Sarah Palin crazies is going to go postal and start shooting Muslims. I think they would think I'm a bit daffy if I called them and told them to get on DU to discuss their relatives' dream of owning a shop or ANYTHING.

You are missing the point. If a man wants to own a shop, isn't this having a dream of "having access to the means of production"? If he owns the shop, then he sure as heck owns the means of production.

Or do you think people really run around thinking, "Oh gee, I sure wish I could work in a large behemoth owned by the government". I have lived in quite a few countries. I had the pleasure of cheering when I left a communist country and could celebrate my escape. And I have met more people from all sorts of places than you can imagine.

And I seldom find this communist type thinking you seem to think prevails out there. Most people I met, they want to own their shop. They definitely want to own their house, and not have it owned by the government.

Do you know where I find communism more often? Academia. Bored professors who are missing the whole picture, but love to talk and are oh so very smart because they got an economics degree from Cambridge and they wrote a book discussing Ricardo.

And sometimes I find them in the media. Young men and ladies who got a fancy degree, went on to radio and TV, and became rich talking communism to the masses. I prefer humble folk like Maher, he doesn't claim to know that much.

[LooseWilly]

150. Don't know what "Leave it to Beaver" is, but I should trust you know everything else?

You are aware that that's the message conveyed by the use of such useful clichés as "naive young folk"? Right?

If you're puzzled by the allusion, then I suggest you do some "research".
(You could start with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leave_It_to_Beaver.)
(You might even want to go really crazy and watch it here: http://www.hulu.com/search?query=leave+it+to+beaver&st=1&fs=)

Is the Egyptian revolution about people seeking "freedom"? Or opportunity? Or "participation"? Most of what I've heard is people calling for the right to have a say in their government... that's not the same as your glib use of "freedom".

I know Egyptians, as well as Sudanese, Nigerians, Ethiopians, Syrians, Yemenis, Iranians, Afghans, Pakistanis, Irish, Italians, Indians, and a whole lot more beyond that. I'll thank you to stop trying to foist your limited imagination upon me. In fact, you are the one missing the point... the reason you suspect "they would think I'm a bit daffy if I called them and told them to get on DU to discuss their relatives' dream of owning a shop or ANYTHING." — is because the words you are using are "daffy".

Owning their own shop is indeed owning the means of production. That accessibility is all that Marx really called for... but you seem to instead want to conflate any criticism of capitalist systems with a call for a Soviet bureaucracy. Being a co-owner of a store, like a worker owned co-op, something like Arizmendi Bakery (http://www.arizmendibakery.org/about), would also fit the "access to the means of production" ... but in a more familiarly "communist" form.

The capitalist system that is being criticized here is, to wade into the allegorical fantasy you are weaving, more like criticizing Wal-Mart for coming into town and stealing all the business of the "store" while leaving the owner and his/her family to starve. If you re-read the OP, without bothering with the knee-jerk response, I think you'll notice that it is just criticizing the Wal-Martiness of the capital investors who "hot box" the local economy, inflating prices out of reach of those who have no stores (or at least no customers for their metaphorical stores).

Ohh, and I think you under-estimate the courage of your bevy of Egyptian "friends"... they may be busy, but I don't buy that they're laying low for fear of the Palin-esque fucktards around town.

I don't think you have any real idea what "communist type thinking" I might believe exists out there... but, judging by your comment that "I had the pleasure of cheering when I left a communist country and could celebrate my escape." ... I suspect that my judgement of your point of view was right on target— you were just a foreign consumer of US Anti-Communist propaganda, rather than a domestic consumer.

You might want to check out some of those episodes of "Leave it to Beaver"... see some of that mythological anti-communist utopia in living black & white. I suspect the Beaver also wanted nothing more than to own a store. Too bad that Capitalism means having to close up shop when Wal-Mart comes to town...

[social_critic]

169. Marx was wrong

Marx was a social parasite who spent his life sucking money from Engels. He never had an honest job nor ran a business other than pamphleteering, his education was defficient, and his theories were flawed and full of holes.

I do have a pretty good idea of communist type thinking. I was introduced to Marx when I was 10 years old. By 13, I was being taught how to teach YOU to convince YOU to become a Marxist. By 14, I was reading 1984 and The New Class and figuring out how to overthrow the communist regime. And this probably happened before you were born.

And yes, whenever you guys get a hold of power, you do ruin it because you don't know where to draw the line, and you suffocate everything and everybody. History has shown that marxists, when put in power, evolve into corrupt oligarchs and human rights abusers. That's your pedigree, you can't avoid it. To you this may be theory, to me it's practice. I have suffered wearing your chains, and I won't let you put them on me ever again.

Next.

[HEyHEY]

262. You may want to listen to people who have actually live in communist states.

Instead of rudely disregarding what they say so you can go on spouting garbage you read in books.

[socialist_n_TN]

164. Well remember, this guy hangs around Tony H.........

the BP CEO. So I'm sure his "Egyptian friends" are not of the working/poor class. He/she is a prime example of a life lived in the capitalist bubble.

[social_critic]

193. Capitalist Bubble Boys, Tony Hayward, and my Egyptian Friends

All of these are unrelated.

Where did you hear I hang arond with Tony Hayward? I would have gone to Davos and hung around with that crowd if they had invited me. I even had my speech ready, but no deal.

You are right, my Egyptian friends are all in the US or overseas, not in Egypt. They are professionals, mostly middle class. So what do you guys have against the middle class? I heard Chavez' oil minister, Rafael Ramirez, give a speech where he screamed "we hate the middle class", spitting saliva as if he were a mad camel. But that was Ramirez, and I know he's an actor. But do you guys really hate the middle class that much? You want the kulaks to die?

Did I live my life in the capitalist bubble? I don't think so. Don't forget I'm Cuban. I spent time living in the workers' paradise, I was so skinny, I could wiggle out. So I escaped, and lived in poverty for a short period of time, until I figured out how to make a buck while going to high school and college.

I can write a monograph on the proper strategy to extract most value from garbage cans in upper class suburbs in southern florida, and the best and highest paying jobs for 15 year olds who don't have a way to get to work in a city with no public transport. Maybe I'll do that for the Haitians.

By the way, did you notice I never discuss your background, where you are from, your education, or what your life has been like? I don't have to.

[woo me with science]

186. Actually, I have an Egyptian friend who wants a store, too. nt

[TBF]

93. lol - just get them protesters a storefront and they'll be good to go.

Fail.

[social_critic]

109. Don't focus on the storefront, they do want freedom

These things happen in stages. I think they focus on freedom first. But they do want economic improvements. The way they live, freedom can be a pretty theory if it doesn't fill their stomachs.

But tell me, what do you think they really dream about, do you think their life's dream is to be workers in a state owned enterprise? Or maybe you think they dream of working for BP?

[riderinthestorm]

219. Its not either/or. They want the freedom to do all of it. And that doesn't happen in a pure

capitalist state. Your black/white thinking is naive and dangerous

[socialist_n_TN]

13. "Capitalism is an evil." And Sabrina's comment about........

capitalism being an "...evil system." I AGREE with you both. The only difference is that I would capitalize the "e". It's an Evil system. I even think that it's Satanic.

Kick for awareness.

[social_critic]

17. Capitalism isn't evil at all

I wonder where you get these ideas. And what would you propose as an alternative? I see a lot of anti capitalist posts here, but I don't see any alternatives being discussed in detail.

[socialist_n_TN]

19. So you want me to set up a radical socialist .........

governmental structure in an internet post? Don't think so. I WILL say that MY personal vision would be based largely on an economic model of owner operated small businesses and worker co-ops for larger concerns. The national government would have control of all of the "general welfare" types of businesses/industries AND tight control over interstate businesses. IF a business got to a certain size, the government would step in an run it for the "general welfare". The closest I could come in a nutshell would be that the dog (government) would wag the tail (business) and NOT vice versa.

And of course it's Evil. It's a TOTALLY amoral system that glorifies making the most money possible. Ethics and morality doesn't enter the equation at ALL. How could that NOT be Evil?

[social_critic]

28. Sounds impractical.

Making the most money possible while following the rules is pretty efficient. The trick is to have as few rules as possible and make sure they do get obeyed.

I don't see how a worker co-op would work for a large company. For example, how would they raise capital?

Also, what makes you think a government owned company makes sense? Government owned companies are usually inefficient, and they become deadweights. Do you believe in evolution? Darwinism works, and if the system is set up properly, then companies fail and get blown out of the water, and the survivors prosper. It's tough out there, but life is tough on this small planet.

You don't have to outline anymore, I got the idea. Your proposal won't work. It has been tried, it failed. Look at Venezuela. Admitedly Chavez and his gang are more corrupt and dumb than average, but that's an example of why the approach you propose doesn't work.

[bread_and_roses]

37. I guess you never heard of MONDRAGON? And our local "gov't owned" power co is 1/3 the cost

of our local Vampire Private Utility (the gov't one is owned by a municipality - people around here buy and sell houses with the lure of "municipal power." And no, it is NOT "subsidized" - it just doesn't have to make a "profit" to make a few Execs rich and shareholders rich. And funny how the people of Venezuela keep electing Chavez, ain't it? Or do you think they'd rather have United Fruit?

[social_critic]

63. Sounds like baloney

I doubt your local utility can deliver power at 1/3 the cost of a private utility. You probably got the numbers wrong somewhere.

But tell you what, if you guys got something that good, then you ought to expand your market and take over power generation for the whole country. Hell, you could take over the world. And since your little town owns the stock in your local owned company, you guys will be filthy rich in short order. You can even build a 50 meter covered and heated swimming pool for the High School team, and get your own disney style monorail.

When I think of it, all you got to do is expand a little, show you got the secret of success, and then float the stock. You don't even have to bother to grow it that much.

[defendandprotect]

42. Judging everything by the yardstick of a dollar bill has brought us Global Warming and destruction!!

Money above people? Is that what you're saying?

We have anti-trust laws because sane people understand the threat of monopolies

to freedom and democracy.

Government owned companies are usually inefficient

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Blackwater and Charter schools -- all great models -- for failure at the expense of the

taxpayer!

Enron -- S&L theft and embezzlements -- our car makers -- Banksters --

who were those "deadweights" we just bailed out?


Capitalism has been tried and we have a dying planet for it --

and American citizens dying every day for lack of health care because of the greed of it!

[social_critic]

65. Who said anything about judging everything by the yardstick of a dollar?

Please don't go overboard.

Enron is an example of regulatory failure, that's all. So are BP's disaster in the Gulf of Mexico, the regulatory breakdown which led to the mortage crisis, and so on. This doesn't mean the system itself isn't sound. It just needs to be properly regulated.

[socialist_n_TN]

70. Isn't it funny just how MUCH "regulatory failure" is ............

involved in the failures of capitalism? But of course, the system itself CANNOT be at fault. It's not the fault of the capitalists themselves in ALL THOSE CASES! They were just taking advantage of all that "regulatory failure". To fault the system itself would be HERESY! Do I really need the sarcasm thingy?

[social_critic]

96. I don't think it's funny

I think it's a tragedy. It's not the fault of the capitalists themselves, because we're all profit minded. And all of us are wise guys who like to take advantage when we can.

The system can be faulted, of course. But not to the point where you throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I also want to point out you can't provide better alternatives, while I spend my idle hours doodling and trying to figure out how to fine tune and improve what we have, you seem to be building blowtorches to burn everything down. So why should I listen to you when you can't really give me anything to chew on?

[riderinthestorm]

129. I can. The Socialist Democracies of Scandinavia. nt

[social_critic]

136. Those are the Capitalist Democracies of Scandinavia

Check their stock exchange listings. They get to own their homes. My favorite restaurant in Oslo is DS Louise. It's privately owned. When I visit, my friends take me sailing on Oslofjord. They own their boats. And nobody dreams of running over the Herring Curtain because there's no reason to run. I guess you could call them globalist neoliberal capitalists.

[pampango]

192. I love it - "Globalist neoliberal capitalists". If DU had a bar, those would be fighting words.

:)

Your friends don't take offense at being called "globalist neoliberal capitalists" since their country makes the economy work for everyone. While their trade and immigration policies qualify as "globalist", I'm not sure that the high degree of progressive taxation would be considered "neoliberal" or just plain ol' "liberal."

[social_critic]

196. I had to throw in neoliberal, I guess

We could call them Globalist Liberal Capitalists. The high degree of progressive taxation is definitely liberal.

I believe in taxing people as high as possible, but it has to be done carefully to avoid having them alter their behavior (this is what the IRS calls tax-cheatin'). My behavior starts getting altered when I hit 40 % income tax. You go higher than that, I think I'll start cheating, or I'll just slow down and stop working.

But the tax I really love is the tax on dead people. Dead people can't complain, which means I loove the estate tax. When I think of it, the tax isn't really on the corpse, who after all isn't there anymore for real. The tax is applied to the free loaders who are inheriting the money, so it's ok to bleed them.

What I can't fathom is why the idiots in congress went along with Bush and discontinued it. These guys were pure cowards, what did they think that the dead guys' ghost was going to come to haunt them?

[riderinthestorm]

222. Nope, constitutional monarchies. You need a closer check on their own political identities nt

[social_critic]

234. Those Kings are fake.

I visited the place, and the King doesn't even have a decent bodyguard. I got up to the Queen, took her picture with my kids standing next to her. We had more trouble getting the same picture with Antonio Banderas in NY.

[PhillySane]

115. I think you're giving George Orwell a run for the money here!

[social_critic]

119. Really? Did you ever try a day in a Soviet Gulag?

Read "A day in the life of Ivan Denisovitch".

[riderinthestorm]

131. Oh so it has to be either a Soviet gulag or the warped US system?

It can't be something in between like France or Denmark?

[social_critic]

137. Sure, but this guy called me Orwellian

France is OK, other than their nasty habit of putting mayo on their hamburguers. Denmark is too cold, plus they are too close to Germany.

I'm shopping for a condo in Southern Europe. I'm a US citizen, but the atmospherics in the US are a tad too neo-nazi for my taste. But I got to see if I can wait out the euro-dollar exchange rate, and I think real estate prices in southern europe ought to fall a bit more. Plus I got to make a clean break with Venezuela. I'm almost there, but I got to sell my china.

[defendandprotect]

156. And ... WHY do we have "regulatory failure" ... anything to do with coporations buying government ..

and our government agencies -- ?

Careful now, because my one rule for putting people on "ignore" is

disingenuousness --

And, no -- Enron was not simply about "deregulation" bought and paid for

with corporate money to control our elected officials -- it was about CRIME.

Pure and simply CRIME!

Unregulated capitalism is organized crime --

[social_critic]

165. Why do we have regulatory failure?

Because we are human. These things happen. Doctors amputate the wrong limb, policemen steal dope from confiscated stock, and politicians take bribes. It happens.

I think Enron was about deregulation because Skilling et al were able to turn into big time crooks thanks to weaknesses in the regulatory apparatus - audits just didn't stand up. Sarbanes Oxley legislation was passed to try to stop these type of abuses, I think it works.

You do need to be less emotional about it. Crime is crime. I get hotter when I think about Cheney and Rumsfeld taking our poor troops into that meat grinder in Iraq. It cost us $1 trillion and so many people have been killed, wounded, tortured, and seen their lives ruined....

[defendandprotect]

178. We have the overturning of New Deal regulations because of corporate bribery ....

Our founders warned us of "dishonest men" among us --

and they, as well, even understood a conspiracy between a president and VP --

so they certainly understood corporate crime -- they stood against it --

they feared the power of capital.

That's why we have a Bill of Rights -- and the power of impeachment -- and elections.

These tools of democracy, however, have been suspended by corporate wealth buying government.

And the Supreme Court!


I think Enron was about deregulation because Skilling et al were able to turn into big time crooks thanks to weaknesses in the regulatory apparatus - audits just didn't stand up. Sarbanes Oxley legislation was passed to try to stop these type of abuses, I think it works.

Not "weaknesses" but buying the overturning of regulations which protected consumers from crimes

such as they committed.

You do need to be less emotional about it. Crime is crime.

The elected officials who permitted these Enron crimes -- and who were pre-bribed to overturn

New Deal regulations are the same pre-bribed officials who gave you these illegal and immoral

wars of aggression bankrupting our Treasury. And permitted privatizing of the military.

Acutally we need to be more emotional about it -- that's why it's been so urgent for

Pentagon/MIC to keep battlefield scenes from us! Including the coffins returning home!

That's why you saw the huge emotional reaction to the Bradley Manning video release of the

pilots firing on Iraqi citizens -- including two journalists -- and a vanload of people!


Because we are human. These things happen. Doctors amputate the wrong limb, policemen steal dope from confiscated stock, and politicians take bribes. It happens.

This is a little out of the way, but while we always have degrees of human error, we also

understand that lack of rest, poor training, putting profit over people -- and actually

employing people who support sexist, racist and homophobic concepts as our "public servants"

leads to these abuses.

[social_critic]

209. You keep skating all over the place

Try to focus on one item at a time.

[riderinthestorm]

225. Or you could try answering. Exposed as a libertarian fool.... nt

[defendandprotect]

43. "Sounds impractical" ... if all you're after is a huge profits -- not wellbeing of people/community!

[social_critic]

66. I'm for the wellbeing of people and community

Look, I'm not a robot writing this in a lab somewhere, OK? I'm definitely for the wellbeing of people, dogs, birds, trees, toads, you name it. And I'm also for clean communities with high quality public transportation, bycicle lanes, and high schools valued for their student's SAT scores and not their football scores.

So, we're on the same page, I think.

Except I may be a little more radical than most of you. For example, I'm a lot more anti war than you guys, and I'm for legalizing drugs and say so every time I get a chance.

But I also like huge profits, because it means we get to collect huge taxes. I think my solution is better than yours, that's all.

[socialist_n_TN]

71. Huge profits mean huge taxes. Yeah, sure they do..........

Where are those huge taxes? All I'm hearing from the capitalists is how OVERtaxed they are.

[social_critic]

80. Yes sir, huge profits means huge taxes

Check the way it works. Capitalists are human beings. Their mission in life is to bitch about death and taxes. So what's the big deal? You're opposed to free speech for people who own their farms, bakeries, and mechanic's shops?

[defendandprotect]

180. We're all paying MORE in taxes than many corporations ...rather ...

huge profits - more unemployment -- more loss of government/democracy -- and

more taxes to be paid by average citizens!

[social_critic]

198. We could start a thread on how to reform the tax system

I have some wonderful ideas. But I wouldn't focus so much on the corporate taxes as such. I would focus on the loopholes. Some of those loopholes you can run a train through. Then there are issues such as the ability to write off loan costs, charges from sister companies located abroad, real cost of supplies, and of course taxable income which is kept abroad to avoid taxation. These are all tricks most of you don't know about. They need to be considered and modeled as a package. The problem is when the House tries to get their teeth into these things, the lobbyists swarm like flies, and the outcome sucks.

[defendandprotect]

79. Corporations/capitalism are based on exploitation of everything ... profits over people ...

You can't be for both --

Had we never had an industrial revolution and "bus-i-ness" we would still have the planet.

And, I would presume that if I asked you to tell us how much the planet is worth, you would

get out your calculator!

Except I may be a little more radical than most of you. For example, I'm a lot more anti war than you guys, and I'm for legalizing drugs and say so every time I get a chance.

And who do you think is bringing you war and MIC, but corporate America?

It's the Military/Intelligence Industrial Complex ... remember?

But I also like huge profits, because it means we get to collect huge taxes. I think my solution is better than yours, that's all.

And baloney on the taxes -- wealthy pay less in taxes than ordinary citizens -- and this has

been going on for decades.

Any support for capitalism at this point is either disingenuous or uninformed.




PS: Evidently you also don't know that corporations have long been united to move jobs out

of America -- to destroy our safety nets -- and to restore discrimination on every level from

which they profit -- i.e., gender, race, homosexuality, religion. Remember the good old days

of quotas for women and Jews? And AA weren't allowed at all? We actually have Repugs at this

point working to change the child labor laws.

Capitalism is suicidal exploitation of nature, animal-life, natural resources -- and even

other human beings.

[social_critic]

82. I can be for both profit and people

It would be really nice if you avoid instructing me on what I can or can not think, please. It gets tiresome. I happen to believe I can be for both people and profit. The way I see it, having an econmic system in which profits are high is a pretty good idea. This allows people to have a higher standard of living.

You have a tendency to jump all over the place, by the way. From profit and people you go on to a luddite discussion in which you seem to oppose the industrial revolution. So I take it you would want us to live in hamlets pulling plows with manual labor, and grinding cereal with hand stones? Or do you want to go even further back, and take us back to become hunter gatherers?

Who is bringing war to us? Nobody. We bring war to others. The military industrial complex, the israel lobby, and your own arrogance is what drives war. Because every one of you has, at one time or another, backed a cockamamie "peace keeping initiative". Most of you foamed at the mouth when you saw the poor Somalis starving and backed having our troops there machine gunning people from helicopters, didn't you? Didn't you think it was great to have our planes bombing in Kosovo for human rights? Give me a break, we got war because we're a warlike people who think war costs very little, and we're willing to use violence because it makes us feel good. Oh yes, we're exceptional. We're god's people, chosen to impose democracy on the planet. And if we have to use bullets to do it, why, this is justified because the end justifies the means.

And corporations don't unite to destroy safety nets. Geez, as if corporations had volition to do anything but survive and turn a buck. Corporations will move job overseas when they think they can make more money doing so. It's up to us to put in place the mechanisms to make them move jobs here.

Corporations are like dogs. You toss a t bone into your neighbor's property, you had better have a pretty good fence to keep your dog from moving over.

[riderinthestorm]

133. Profits are at a record high right now. Companies are hoarding money

and it has NOT been good for our economy nor has it allowed the average Joe or Jane to have a higher standard of living. We have depression level unemployment. Please peddle this bullshit elsewhere.

[social_critic]

139. Hey, things are looking good

Now we got to wait for employment to recover. All those rich folk making tons of money in the stock market is going to mean rich folk looking for maids and people to cut their poodles' hair. And this will eventually work out for all of us.

The trick is for you guys to figure out how to vote for the Democrats next time around, so you can raise taxes on the bastards. You keep voting Republican, and then you got what you deserve, and don't bitch at me. I don't even live in the US.

I vote democrat when I do vote. I don't like them, but what choice do I have? I guess I could make little Dennis Kucinich clones and send them in cardboard boxes, and see if they can take over the country, but that could get expensive.

And PLEASE, let's all pull together to get our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, we really can't afford this globocop role we have assumed. We could also cut the aid to Israel while we are at it. I know it's controversial, but it doesn't make sense to borrow money from China to give it to rich people. our foreign policy is pretty weird. Do you guys realize we are blowing the Health Care money killing iraqis? It's insane.

And if you think that underhanded trick, to talk down the economy so people get scared and vote for the Republicans will work with me, you are way off. I'm voting for President Obama come hell or high water.

[defendandprotect]

151. No -- Capitalism is PROFIT over people ... you can see that in BP Gulf ...

and the horrendous almost two months of destruction to the Gulf and to residents --

to animal-life -- and the continuing attempts to avoid accountability.

You can see that in the 50-60 years of oil industry lying about Global Warming to

protect their profits while destroying the planet --

You can see that in Big Pharma -- and the for profit-health care industry --

insurance companies charging unimaginable rates while providing less and less care.

You can see it in pollution of the planet -- air, water, oceans, soil.

And you can see it in Monsanto and their desire for control over our water and our seeds.

And creating GM seeds -- altering seeds to secure patents on them.

Same with drug companies who make very minor changes to their drugs to preserve the patents

and to prevent them from going generic.


As for the "you can't" -- that's the Royal "you" -- it simply means ... No one can ...

or no sane person can --



You have a tendency to jump all over the place, by the way. From profit and people you go on to a luddite discussion in which you seem to oppose the industrial revolution. So I take it you would want us to live in hamlets pulling plows with manual labor, and grinding cereal with hand stones? Or do you want to go even further back, and take us back to become hunter gatherers?


You have a tendency not to understand how interrelated all subjects are --

And, you're saying you didn't understand that scientists understood immediately that the

Industrial Revolution was damaging nature?

Again, scientists understood early on -- and we can clearly see now -- that this exercise

in "bus-i-ness" was meaningless, except for the profit of the few. And that it came at the

cost of huge destruction of our enviornment which has damaged humans and the planet.


Who is bringing war to us? Nobody. We bring war to others. The military industrial complex, the israel lobby, and your own arrogance is what drives war. Because every one of you has, at one time or another, backed a cockamamie "peace keeping initiative". Most of you foamed at the mouth when you saw the poor Somalis starving and backed having our troops there machine gunning people from helicopters, didn't you? Didn't you think it was great to have our planes bombing in Kosovo for human rights? Give me a break, we got war because we're a warlike people who think war costs very little, and we're willing to use violence because it makes us feel good. Oh yes, we're exceptional. We're god's people, chosen to impose democracy on the planet. And if we have to use bullets to do it, why, this is justified because the end justifies the means.

We have war because it profits the few -- and especially fascistic concepts for those who want

control over others. We have war to protect capitalism/corporatism and their "property."

And that "property" is often things like "their OIL" being under someone else's sand!

Our MIC and Israel's are certainly connected -- they are so intertwined that you can barely

tell the difference between them. And, did you check out the list of weapons Mubarak was

using against his own people? Tear gas -- "Made in USA" -- Jets -- "Made in USA" --

Tanks -- "Made in USA" --



And corporations don't unite to destroy safety nets. Geez, as if corporations had volition to do anything but survive and turn a buck. Corporations will move job overseas when they think they can make more money doing so. It's up to us to put in place the mechanisms to make them move jobs here.

What do you think the Business Round Table is except almost 300 companies united to ensure that

they can still profit from gender exploitation -- ? Fighting pay-equity. Fight unions --

and last I looked they certainly didn't want publicity about it. Long list of famous companies

-- including companies like Hallmark Cards - ironic isn't it, with women probably being the

biggest purchasers of their cards! If they only knew.

What do you think the Chamber of Commerce is doing -- ?

And the many other centers of power dominated by corporations for their own benefit -- and

in opposing benefits for labor.





Corporations are like dogs. You toss a t bone into your neighbor's property, you had better have a pretty good fence to keep your dog from moving over.

Elevating thoughts?

[social_critic]

161. your post is way too long to anwer it

You do need to focus on one thing at a time. I know I drift sometimes, but I keep it shorter.

I don't think oil companies knew about global warming until recently. I didn't know about it until recently, and I'm pretty smart and read almost everything. Plus my siblings are liberal wonk tree huggers in the Ivy league, so they tell me about it even before it gets published.

[defendandprotect]

181. "I don't think oil companies knew about global warming until recently" -- !!!!

Well -- if that isn't disingenuousness, I don't know what might be!!

Oil industry has conducted a 50-60 year campaign to disinform, misinform, lie to

and proapgandize the public to deny Global Warming --

In fact, the Royal Academy of Science called them out on it a few years ago and told

them to STOP!

So -- you're on a thin thread now re being disingenuous vs being really poorly underinformed!

[social_critic]

202. Show me an article published 50 years ago attributing global warming to the greenhouse effect

Don't get emotional and use all those !!

Just link me to an article discussing the anthropogenic impact on global warming, the greenhouse effect and its impact on global warming, comments about CO2 in the atmosphere, whatever backs up your point.

I just want to see what's the earliest reference you can find.

I don't remember worrying much about it until the late 80's. I remember puzzling over sea ice cover in the Arctic in the early 1990's, and we wondered at the time if it was a speeded up trend or what the heck was going on. I was surrounded by PhDs, and none of them told me they saw a clear tie to anthropegenic gas emissions.

[social_critic]

163. Regarding BP's evil oil spill

They just took a $40 billion loss for the spill. Their chairman and most of the senior management lost their jobs. They got people being investigated and the rocks haven't stopped falling on their heads. The company nearly went over the cliff. So this showed the system works in the sense that when they screw up, they do get squeezed a bit. I don't think Hayward was punished enough, but life isn't just.

But buddy, if this had been a state oil company, nothing would have happened to anybody. And they would still be doing business as usual. I know you don't know, but I do. I've seen the horrific pollution caused by state oil companies all over the world. Why don't we have California lawyers trying to sue them? Because they are state oil companies, owned by sovereign governments, and immune. So they get to keep on screwing their employees, the environment, and the people. That's life.

[defendandprotect]

182. You're saying ... "poor BP" .... ??? rofl

Okay -- that's really smelling like disingenuous now --

The SYSTEM -- i.e., overturning of New Deal regulations to protect the public --

overturning the long term BAN ON OFF SHORE OIL DRILLING -- and the arrogance by Obama

which has now after BP/Gulf continued on with allowing it! -- is what was destroyed by

corporate wealth. The damage isn't to BP, it's our natural systems -- oceans, animal-life

and the health and well-being of the Gulf residents and their communities!

What shocking disregard for people while adoring profit!!



But buddy, if this had been a state oil company, nothing would have happened to anybody. And they would still be doing business as usual. I know you don't know, but I do. I've seen the horrific pollution caused by state oil companies all over the world. Why don't we have California lawyers trying to sue them? Because they are state oil companies, owned by sovereign governments, and immune. So they get to keep on screwing their employees, the environment, and the people. That's life.

Had we NATIONALIED OIL INDUSTRY in the 1930's or at the latest when JFK ran on a Democratic

Platform which called for the nationalizing of the industry. Nothing happens here without the

permission of our government -- which has been corrupted by corporate money for personal

profit of the few.

[social_critic]

197. You need to complete your thoughts

You know, sometimes you start writing and you don't complete your thoughts. It's like watching those old cat woman episodes where's she's going over niagara falls tied hand and feet, and then you can't watch the next days' episode because you got band practice. You're killing me.

I don't think the New Deal had much to do with offshore drilling in water one mile deep. Back in those days, they thought offshore drilling meant shoving a wooden pole at the low tide line. Deep water drilling just got ahead of the government. I don't think President Obama got corrupted for personal profit. He was given the wrong advice. If he had asked me, I would have told him to reform the regulatory system for offshore drilling in deep water, because mother nature was getting ahead of the technology and the human factor was being pushed too hard.

This is like the Space Shuttle disasters, they didn't understand the risks, and the people making decisions weren't property trained. In the end, it turned out most of the people who had to react did so, the wrong way.

[defendandprotect]

224. Here's a complete thought ...

You're on "ignore" --

Think best to have you on the record which should save everyone else

time hereafter.

[riderinthestorm]

226. Or you could answer. Thats called having a discussion. nt

[defendandprotect]

248. What is it YOU want an answer to ... ?

[social_critic]

254. Social Critic says: We were starting to discuss the BP oil spill as a sub-thread

I think the guy just points out you didn't really address properly my comments about BP being heavily penalized for the Deep Water Horizon incident and the consequences. You got hot under the collar and said you would ignore me, and our friend pointed out you had failed to respond.

I realize the DWH incident makes many people sputter. I looked at it with a microscope because I saw it as a massive failure of the regulatory system.

[socialist_n_TN]

75. Following the rules huh? They ARE following the rules...........

of capitalism. Make as much money as possible. PERIOD. That's the only rule of capitalism.

A worker owned co-op in a socialist system would get low interest loans from the government. You know "for the people". That's how they would raise capital. Doesn't the government support and if necessary bail out the capitalists? So the precedent is already in place.

And from your side of the aisle, it's ALWAYS the people who would screw up a socialist system because EVERYBODY is as corrupt as the capitalists.

As to Venezuela in spite of the propaganda against him for the last decade or so, he still seems to be pretty popular with the majority of the people of his country. What's the wealth disparity in Venezuela? Is it as bad as it is here? I sincerely doubt it.

[social_critic]

102. No they are not

You are not a capitalist. I am sortof an expert in this area, trust me. Making as much money as possible isn't the only rule, because if they catch you, you go to jail.

Let me give you a little background: Corporations have different strategies to keep their shareholders happy. Some have dumb shareholders, and they don't even have to have a strategy. I also met a Chairman of the Board who was so dense he didn't know what strategy was. And I met one, Tony Hayward, who was pretty smart but picked the wrong strategy and almost sank his company together with the Deep Water Horizon.

So, let's say a company has middling intelligent management. Management wants to get those fat bonuses so they can keep their private planes and stock options flying. And they also need to keep shareholders a little bit happy. Which means they focus on things such as RETURN ON SHAREHOLDER EQUITY. And as it turns out, this measure doesn't always require one make as much money as possible. What it does require is that one fill out papers which show one is making a lot of money. And it really helps if it shows you are making MORE money than your PEERS.

Now that we got that lesson down, let's talk Venezuela: Chavez isn't backed by the majority of Venezuelans. It is a lot worse than it is in the US. I live in Venezuela. And I own property in the US, and visit there quite often. I assure you, you don't even want to come down to visit Venezuela.

[defendandprotect]

183. And, we know it also buys overturning the RULES ...

such as the long-standing ban on off-shore drilling which made way for 500-600 oil

rigs in the Gulf!! Sheer insanity!


:)

[social_critic]

199. There was no long standing ban on offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico

You are confused again. The ban was elsewhere. Offshore drilling has been a thriving industry in the Gulf of Mexico. Hundreds of thousands of oil people worked there.

You know, you should really get your facts straight before you start thinking.

[defendandprotect]

214. Obama Ends Ban On East Coast Offshore Drilling -- 3/21/10

AND, OBVIOUSLY, BP experience is a strong message that ALL Gulf and ALL off-shore

drilling should be banned --


March 31, 2010 President Obama announced the end of a decades-old ban on oil and gas drilling along much of the U.S. Atlantic coast and northern Alaska on Wednesday, as part of an effort to reduce foreign imports and win support for an energy and climate bill.

The changes in policy would allow drilling on tracts as close as 50 miles to the Virginia shore, and end a longstanding moratorium on drilling from Delaware to central Florida. Exploration in the Gulf of Mexico would be expanded eastward, and swaths north of Alaska would be opened up.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125378223

Just before the BP "spill" recall Obama saying that we had to realize that

"Today's rigs don't spill" -- !!

Followed not too long afterward by his sage comment that ...

"The Gulf will bounce back!" --



--------------------


Today, the Obama administration reversed its position in offshore drilling, saying that it will not pursue offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico or the East Coast. No new oil drilling projects will be proposed in these waters for at least seven years after the BP oil spill disaster.

Previous plans by the administration were looking to authorize oil drilling from Delaware to central Florida, plus the northern waters of Alaska. But this was a plan announced in March, before the oil spill started. Now, only drilling projects in Alaska can be approved but there will be more hurdles to pass.

“The decision comes on top of the de facto moratorium the administration has imposed on production in both deep and shallow waters in the Gulf and Alaska . . .






The House bill would end an Outer Continental Shelf drilling moratorium that Congress has renewed every year since 1981. It covers 85 percent of the country’s coastal waters — everywhere except the central and western Gulf of Mexico and some areas off Alaska.



Coastal states have long feared the potential damage offshore drilling could cause through oil spills—like the 3-million-gallon spill Santa Barbara suffered in 1969—soiled beaches and reduced tourism. More offshore drilling also means more onshore refining; more oil, gasoline and other petrochemical products moving through pipelines; and more marine and ground transport. And as history has shown, refineries, pipelines and oil tankers are just as vulnerable, perhaps more vulnerable, to extreme weather, seismic events, and human error as offshore oil rigs.

Congress first approved the ban after thousands of production facilities were erected in the central and western Gulf of Mexico.

Oil and natural gas platforms dot the Gulf off the coasts of Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. Off Florida's coast, however, the scene from the beach is different.

[Scruffy1]

29. John Maynard Keynes quote.

"Capitalism is the belief that the evilest people doing the evilest things is for the common good."

From Egypt to Honduras we are witnessing the destruction by international capitalism. The capital moves in and out leaving the local populations destitute and landless. The profits are merely used to finance the next scam. Whether it be palm plantations in Honduras or foreign ownership of the Banks and factories of Egypt the money is siphoned off by the great vacuum of capitalism leaving behind a trail of death and misery.

[defendandprotect]

44. .. and the larger the corporations grow, the larger our MIC to support and protect them ...!!

[chervilant]

64. hmm....

I had to put that person on my ignore list. His/her scope of ignorance is astonishing. I could wade through the depths of that DUer's intellect without getting the tops of my toes wet...

[bread_and_roses]

26. All anyone has to do is open his/her eyes to know where one "get these ideas"

Contemplate the 'profit motive" for about 5 minutes and I'm sure you'll get it too.

[social_critic]

30. The profit motive is a great wealth creator

When a farmer grows a tomato, takes it to market, and sells it, he profits. The profit motive induces him to grow the tomato. If the expects more sales (more profits), he grows more tomatoes. Isn't this great?

[bread_and_roses]

36. Do you take people around here for idiots?

I suggest you study up a little on what "the profit motive" has done to food security around the world. And while you're at it, take a look at what "the profit motive" is doing to the ecosystem. And while you're at it, don't forget to take at look at exact where all this "wealth" that's been created has has come from, and where it has gone.

And maybe try to explain just how such a defender of the status quo qualifies as a "social critic?"

[social_critic]

48. Why don't you explain to us what the profit motive has done to food security?

I believe you would do better if you explained your point rather than asking me to go study. I am a social critic, and I have studied a lot. I can't go "study" the subject unless you're more specific (although I just finished writing an email where I point out most of the books people suggest I should study are written by authors who don't know as much about the subject as I do).

Sometimes the status quo you live in isn't the same as the status quo I live in. Try to broaden your horizons, open up your mind, put yourself in others' shoes. For example, imagine I live in Cuba or North Korea. Wouldn't that make me a social critic of the status quo?

[defendandprotect]

215. Profit motive has produced Global Warming ... you thing that will produce food security ... ????

[social_critic]

232. That's a long reach

So profit motive produced global warming. Tell me, do you think the Soviet Union didn't put CO2 and other greenhouse gases in the air? I bet the Soviet Union was the number one impact on the planet in its heyday. I do realize economic activity puts CO2 in the air.

But I deduce from your comments you think the communist utopia you propose will somehow shut down CO2 emissions. I guess a communist system could do it if you turn out to be like Pol Pot and put most of the country to death.

Will global warming produce food security? I don't think so. Reducing our population might, but that's going to take a long time (I'm not for a Hutu solution to environmental collapse). Or maybe we can colonize Mars if we can get to it with enough working DNA to operate a bulldozer.

[defendandprotect]

45. Profit motive has been highly destructive to our planet and people ....

plant a dollar bill and see what grows --

try to eat it --

try to eat Monsanto seeds!

Or drink Monsanto water!

And you've forgotten the inevitable capitalist MIDDLE-MAN in your tomato daydream --

the guy who makes all the money and destroys the farmer and the consumer!

[social_critic]

53. The profit motive is what makes the world go round

I think the problem we got is semantics. What I discuss when I say profit may be too broad for you to understand. Let me give you an example:

Say a monkey learns to use a stick to bring down food from a tree. This monkey profits when it uses the stick. If a tree species evolves a wider root system to hang on to the terrain on a steep slope, and in doing so it extends its range as well as reduces soil erosion, then we can say this tree species profits when it evolves in this direction.

The middle man isn't inevitable - we could try going back to the caves - but he or she is serves a very useful function in modern society. Take for example a shopkeeper, who purchases goods, stocks them on shelves, and sells them to people who wish to buy those products. Such a middleman or shopkeeper is entitled to profits, don't you think? If you deny this shopkeeper his or her profits, then why would he or she be interested in getting up early, working, and then counting the money or profits made at the end of the day? This is the 21st century, and most people would rather not be chasing cattle at 3 AM to milk it, or baking their own bread, etc.

Regarding the comments about Monsanto, I don't know what you're talking about.

[defendandprotect]

61. Right there is the fault in your thinking ...

You're judging everything by the yardstick of a dollar bill --

And if you know nothing about Monsanto, basically you know nothing --

Agent Orange by Monsanto -- Food by Monsanto

Suicidal seeds --

No one denies anyone reasonable profit for small businesses --

Meanwhile, take a look at your credit card bill and the interest rate and tell

us this is reasonable profit?

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime --

[social_critic]

68. I don't use a credit card that often, when I do I pay it within three days

The charges on credit cards are reasonable to the people who use them. If you don't think they are reasonable, then stop using them. I think they're criminal, which is the reason I don't use them unless I really have to. But they're not putting a gun to your head to make you use them, right? Why don't you learn to live within your means and use a debit card instead?

I already told you elsewhere you're dreaming up what I think. And I never said anything about supporting unregulated capitalism. Geez.

[defendandprotect]

76. No everyone is so fortunate ....

as you or I may be in not having to carry credit card balances forward and

having to pay high interest rates --

but it does finally all get added into the costs of goods.

And, it does represent unhealthful profits for the few -- at the expense of

those who need credit -- it's a horrific profit margin.

And, of course, this is untrue --

The charges on credit cards are reasonable to the people who use them.

and the mountain of bankruptcies we have in America is testimony to that.

People use these cards at these rates because their forced to for one reason or

another -- in the same ways that people turn to "pay day loans" -- or Mafia for loans.

They're desperate.

I also try not to use a an ATM card any longer -- it's a matter of banks sitting back

as everyone goes out each day to make them wealthy.


Well -- interesting to see that you see the bank rates as "criminal" --

and you support REGULATION of capitalism. hmmm....

[social_critic]

83. I'm not fortunate, I know how to handle my finances

I don't buy the excuse. If you want to treat your credit card like a cocaine dispenser, then get ready to pay the price. When people fall into the trap of using a credit card for instant gratification, they're just like a drug addict. The only bad role I see for banks in this drama is the way they peddle the drugs - ie the credit cards. I do see it as criminal, but I don't think the answer is to shoot you guys because you indulge, or to shoot the banker because he is using your own weakness to screw you.

You know, I have spent most of my life dressing way cheaper than the guy next door. I always drove a cheap car, and I go to the used book store, and yes, bought used clothing for my children. And we don't have fancy weddings in my family, nor do we own Blue Ray 3D DVDs and 50 inch flat screen tv sets. I can only pity you, who lack the common sense to spin away from financil servitude. And I won't support changing ANYTHING to free you. You got to do it yourselves.

[TBF]

123. And you are not a democrat either. Why on earth are you wasting your time here?

True that many here are willing to settle for crumbs rather than fight to get rid of capitalism, there is definitely a range of view, but you are clearly libertarian in your approach. Is this an experiment for your political science class or something?

[social_critic]

132. I didn't say I was a democrat, I find them to be soft and cuddly but...

I am somewhat libertarian, that's true. I would love to legalize dope, so we stop financing both sides of the Colombian civil war.

But you are right, I'm not a democrat either. I do think people should have the right to choose their leaders, and I'm definitely for free speech. But US democrats aren't my thing. They're too prowar when it suits them. And I'm REALLY antiwar.

I am definitely not going to fight to get rid of capitalism, because I don't see an alternative. And please don't string together more than two words to describe what you want. I'm tired of "developmental mitosis-like economic communism" and the like.

Is this an experiment in political science class? Do you mean the Egyptian revolution? I don't think even Harvard could pull it off, having several million Egyptians running around, plus all those camels, horses, tanks, and news media. But it would indeed give us a lot of data if we put a GPS unit and a recorder on each Egyptian, then let them loose to see how they interact, wouldn't it?

Truly, I think this is for real. The Egyptians do want their freedom. The Israeli government prefers Mubarak (I gathered this from watching Fox News), and our government is sort of torn about it.

But I don't think this is about Egyptians trying to fight global capitalism or such non sense. Mostly, they're tired of being ruled by Mubarak and his cronies, and they want to make a decent living. Many of them do want to own their own shop as well, as far as I can tell. And I don't really care if they belong to the Muslim brotherhood or not. I'm for freedom, period.

[riderinthestorm]

138. Two words: democratic socialism. Two words: Scandinavian countries

Two words: capitalism evil. Two words: you democrat? Two words: No way! Two words: Naomi Klein. Two words: Libertarianism sucks.

I dunno. Which two words do you want. Any of them will suffice. You are uneducated about global political and economic systems.

[social_critic]

142. I like Scandinavian Capitalist Countries

Are you imitating tarzan? What's with Naomi Klein and you guys? I got all sorts of people writing me and telling me to read her book. I think I got to visit Naomi and have a chat with her one of these days, and drop off my book for her to read.

Oh, and don't hurt your own reputation saying I don't know about political and economic systems. That's like telling a White Shark he doesn't know how to eat meat.

[riderinthestorm]

227. Poor thing. Exposed in public as a noob. Good luck with that here. nt

[TBF]

158. Yes I think the revolution is for real, and that it has been hijacked by the West

already so you'll probably get your dream of expanding capitalism.

As far as globalism goes it is probably a necessary evil. As all states turn to capitalism, though, we are that much closer to workers revolting en masse to the degree we need to enact worldwide socialism. At some point the over-production gets to saturation point, and I believe we're closer than you think.

At least you're honest about not being a democrat but you skirted the question of what you're doing here.

[social_critic]

171. The West? What the heck is The West?

I love those words, The West. They are so precise. Describe such a monolithic block, an alliance of people convinced of something. What they believe is unfathomable, their numbers unknown, their legal structure a mistery, and I have yet to find an individual who says "I'm from the West".

I read intelligence reports written by neocons, and neoconish publications like The Economist and New York Times, they love these words, "The West". The anonymous West. It can be invoked conveniently by all sides. Some say The West is what enables US imperialism to bomb innocents. Some say The West is the gallant defender of democracy. I really don't know, because as hard as I try, I can't find a map of The West, nor can I locate its real capital, nor can I locate its members.

If you ask me, I think The West is a code word used by neocons and their left wing allies to justify whatever is their cause du jour. It can be used to justify bombing Serbs, or to machine gun Somalis, to invade Iraq, to punish Iran for processing uranium, and to suffocate a quest for freedom in Egypt. Which tells me the West isn't really the West. The West may have its center of power in the Middle East.

I already told you I'm not a democrat, because democrats are too pro-war. I'd rather say I believe in the freedom of people to choose their leaders in free and fair elections. What am I doing here? Writing my thoughts down.

[defendandprotect]

216. And everyone else is an idiot? 25 million unemployed/long term unemployed included?

Rather, the reckless are the corporate criminals we've just bailed out!

[social_critic]

256. I'm not for reckless corporate criminals either

And I feel sorry for the unemployed.

But evidently running up credit card bills isn't the swiftest way to get your house in order. I'm a little confused, are you guys working for the banking industry and encouraging people to buy from their credit cards?

[TBF]

101. Wealth creator for the top 1% maybe. nt

[social_critic]

111. Maybe? It is a great wealth creator

Come on, do you expect me to believe YOU don't think it creates wealth for the top 1 %? You have to believe it.

So the question is, how far down do we go? The top 5 %? Top 50 %? It all depends on how the wealth is distributed.

But it is indeed a great wealth creator at this time. And it has been doing it for a long time.

The REAL question is whether we can continue creating wealth at this pace, whether it's being distributed fairly, and what are we going to do when we run out of oil, fish, and the other stuff we use.

[TBF]

112. Fair distribution is where I'd bet we differ... well, ownership of means of production as well. nt

[social_critic]

121. Ownership of the means of production by the state is a joke, isn't it?

I would invite you to purchase a Soviet Lada. I used to live in Russia, and my Russian friends used to joke the Lada was the only vehicle delivered from the factory with built in rust. I could tell you about the other products item by item. Or I could remind you that nowhere on this planet has a state owned enterprise been known for its respect for the environment of its good treatment of worker's safety.

Do you know what I think? Most of you who propose state ownership are theoreticians. You never experienced what you propose, have empty excuses to explain why it has failed in the past, and/or don't have the foggiest idea of what it takes to run a company to make a good product.

[TBF]

122. Of course it's theory - we don't have a pure communist state to look at for reference.

I'm not an academic. Retired now by choice, but I worked for years in the private sector, including executive suite. I know exactly what it takes to make a company profitable and frankly I don't have the stomach for what is done to people along the way.

[social_critic]

135. That's because you let them do it to you

I developed a sense of humor and learned the kamikaze approach. I was so damned crazy, management feared me, but they knew I knew too much, and I had all these envelopes ready to be mailed if they decided to have me bumped off by the Albanian Mafia.

Having lived in a communist country, and having seen what the theory did, I find it repulsive. I guess you guys could try moving to a small Pacific island and try to make a communist society go, but I suspect you would probably eat each other before you figure out how to make fishing rods. Communism doesn't work.

[socialist_n_TN]

162. You keep talking about trade and merchantilism.............

like every capitalist is an owner-operator or small business. That's not capitalism. At least not to me. Even V.I. Lenin allowed the small businesses to STAY in business after the October Revolution as long as they treated their employees right. And I specifically stated in my brief little outline that owner-operators and small businesses, along with worker co-ops for larger enterpirses, would be the BACKBONE of MY socialist system.

I can't figure out if you're naive or what, but your ideas on capitalism and how it's just a bunch of "good ole boys" bitching about taxes and regulation because that's what they are SUPPOSED to do is pretty short sighted. Once a company gets big enough to BUY, outright, one major political party and half of the other, IT'S TOO FUCKING BIG. It needs to be broken up into component parts or taken over entirely by a government that has the power to CONTROL it. But I suppose if you hang around people like BP CEOs and others of that ilk, you're probably not really naive.

Just like every other capitalist apologist and/or worshiper, you talk a good game about "regulation", but have no idea about how to actually ACCOMPLISH it, ESPECIALLY in today's political climate. FDR "regulated" capitalism to an extent, thanks to a SERIOUS socialist alternative being a threat to the entire system, but the capitalists, FROM THE BEGINNING OF THAT REGULATING, have worked to overturn it. BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE CAPITALISTS DO. Their WHOLE and ENTIRE reason d'etre is that the capitalist system doesn't work correctly unless there is NO regulation. The "invisible hand of the marketplace", per the capitalists, takes care of all necessary regulation. Uh, NO IT DOESN'T.

That's also why the capitalists by overt or covert warfare, will try and undermine EVERY ATTEMPT AT SOCIALISM THAT'S EVER TRIED. They KNOW that any socialist system that's allowed to work and grow WITHOUT opposition, will be a great equalizer for the world's wealth. And that means that the MANY will benefit, not just a few top of the heap capitalists.

Thanks for playing, but I'm done with this. This is the epitome of "agree to disagree".

[social_critic]

167. The problem with your socialist system is....

Your inability to prove you have measured properly the point where a business becomes too big to be private. Please don't mention V.I. Lenin to me, that's like waving a red cape in front of a bull. Thank you.

Socialism the way you propose it fails because government officials are not rewarded to create and run efficient businesses. They lack the pressure points and the motivation, which means they fall behind. And this means state owned enterprises become bloated, inefficient and also turn out to treat their workers and the environment very poorly.

So this isn't about a vast conspiracy by capitalists to destroy socialism. This is about socialism the way you want it being inefficient, and riddled with corruption and abuses. It fails to compete. And because it fails to compete, people with the quasi-religious convictions you have become convinced their failure must be caused by evil counter-revolutionaries and fascist agents. And so they go on to create repression machines, STASI, KGB, DIM, G2, you name it. And these repression machines torture people, make them disappear in the middle of the night, and turn the lives of the people into Orwellian nightmares.

So what can else can I say? Because people like you have caused huge damages in a very personal way to people like me, and we bear the scars to prove it, we have no choice but to fight you. I'll fight you fairly, won't use violence. But I assure you, you won't silence me. You may silence my relatives living in communist regimes, and I may have to leave Venezuela because soon this will be like Cuba. But I'll keep fighting. Take that to the bank.

[riderinthestorm]

235. Sorry but socialist oriented systems are thriving. Like the Scandinavian countries

I'm Irish and "socialist" medicine works just fine FWIW.

Your arguments are from the cold war. Many other cultures and countries have moved on.

[NashVegas]

27. On Its Own, No

But what happens is, the few people at the top of the pyramid develop the will and the means to control the masses below and that is evil.

[social_critic]

31. Now you're talking

The tricky part is to avoid having a few people at the top of the pyramid. The pyramid should have a broad top (sort of like a Mayan pyramid but without the human sacrifice part).

[defendandprotect]

46. Capitalism is a ridiculolus "King-of-the-Hill" system ... it is a pyramid scheme ... !!

[social_critic]

69. Nothing wrong with that

You sound like you're against evolution. Capitalism is about competition, and yes, some of us end up at the top of the hill, until the guys just below the top knock us off. Remember Sinclair, Packard, and Lehman Brothers?

The key is to have competition, of course. This is where our government has been falling down a bit. For example, we really do need to break up Microsoft.

[defendandprotect]

78. Oh, NO ... capitalism is about killing the competition ....

just look at the various companies that went down in this latest economic scam/

scandal -- for the survival of J. P. Morgan!

Neither is evolution about the most violent, vicious, or criminal among us --

evolution as Darwin made clear is about the survival of those species which cooperate

best with nature.

Again -- Capitalism is not about competititon -- it's about killing the competition!



PS: Interesting -- so you're also against monopolies. :blush:

[social_critic]

84. Good capitalism is about competition, not necessarily killing it

I look at it as a dynamic system. A good business person or entrepeneur may see the optimum solution as killing the competition - but this is seldom practical. For example, I doubt ExxonMobil is really that interested in killing Shell and driving it into bankrupcy. Why? Because there's more profit in other endeavors. What ExxonMobil does want is a way to sell gasoline 5 cents per gallon cheaper than Shell does. Just that, one nickel per gallon, will give them huge profits, and will put Shell in a pickle. And ExxonMobil will do a lot for that nickel. And who benefits? As long as we keep ExxonMobil on a leash, we do, because we get the gasoline for a nickel less.

Notice I said keep ExxonMobil on a leash. I would never have approved the Exxon and Mobil merger.I prefer to see the competition when Mobil is left to kick Exxon in the balls. This is where we got to get better. If they want to go inorganic growth route, then they should PAY for the companies they buy, and we should get to TAX the hell out of the deal. These mega mergers are structured to avoid taxes, and the government plays ball to let them get away with it. Which takes me back to the real problem. We don't regulate properly.

[defendandprotect]

152. Evidently, you've never played Monopoly ... ???

And the oil industry is the 7 Sisters -- all related -- once one!

"We keep ExxonMobil on a leash?" :rofl:

MIC uses 80% of our oil -- ExxonMobil is part of the MIC if you figure that out!

But glad to hear you're against monopolies!!

[social_critic]

168. The seven sisters don't exist anymore

The seven sisters don't even exist anymore.

Regarding the "MIC", how do you define it? If you think this "MIC" uses 80 % of "our oil", then what do you mean by "our oil"? What are you talking about? I suspect you're pulling my leg.

[defendandprotect]

188. That's what I was pointing out to you ... and that they were once ONE and the same...

They've evolved thru that looking glass a number of times!

See Thom Hartmann for more info on oil --

However, whatever oil we pay for the MIC uses 80% of it --

and of course business uses most of our energy -- and most of our water --

We've let China and Japan take fresh water from the fresh lakes now -- at no cost.

OK -- this is getting boring -- and I think if you go any further you're going to

end up on "Ignore." --

Your choice -- !!

[social_critic]

210. I can lecture mr Hartman on oil

Don't forget, I know more about oil than Mr Hartman and most people you can dredge up. Trust me.

What's the problem with letting China and Japan get a bit of fresh water? We spill so much of it, it sure sounds greedy to deny them a few glasses. Do you realize that Wall Drug became famous giving a glass of water away? Maybe we could do that and get more tourism.

[defendandprotect]

218. Cheney and Scalia probably know more about "oil" than Thom Hartmann... on the criminal side -- !!

Meanwhile -- good to have you on the record --

[NashVegas]

179. What Goes On at the Top Is Coopotition

Yes, those cats all compete to get to the top, but once they get there the rules change.

Go into a rich suburb and watch how people behave at 4-way stops. They're all waving and waiting for each other to go first if there's any question of who has right of way.

Follow any one and see how they behave at stop signs elsewhere around town, if you can.

[woo me with science]

191. So what DO you do about that? How do you fix it? Do you agree there's a problem?

Right now there is a very small number of people who control most of the wealth in America...and it is getting worse.

Corporations are sitting on billions of dollars. Prices are rising and wages are decreasing. People are less likely to own their own store or even to work for someone who lives locally and might know their name. People literally receive written orders from Denver or New York as to which of their desk drawer slots should hold their paper clips. And there are 100 "human resources" behind them as replacements should they get fed up with being a cog in a corporation that cares nothing for them.

Workloads increase, wages decrease, jobs are outsourced, and workers become replaceable cogs instead of valued employees.

It used to be that when I went to buy candles for our special, odd-sized candle holders, I could find an infinite variety at Mom and Pop shops around the city. Now, I find the same three types of candles at every store in town, because they are made by the same corporation that has demolished all its competition.

How do you fix this?

[social_critic]

211. How do I fix the world?

That's a very tall order. I usually charge $200 an hour, but this is pro bono.

Fuel efficiency - make you guys drive smaller vehicles with tiny engines, much more fuel efficient. Forget batteries, they're a waste of money.

Energy, other - Carbon tax.

Health - medicare for all.

Budget - balance on your dead bodies if I have to.

Military - pull troops home from everywhere, cut it in half. Retire all generals.

Taxes - 40 % estate tax with $3 million exception, give payment facility for the first $1 million.

Corporate - outlaw mergers. Let them buy each other (this is a tax issue, they cheat when they merge)

Foreign Aid - end aid to Israel

Human Rights - suspend Patriot Act, stop torturing people, close Guantanamo, prosecute Bush and Clinton as war criminals

Special Status for Social Critics - build them a nice office building with an indoor swimming pool.

[woo me with science]

241. How does letting them buy each other fix the problem?

Thanks for your input on the war and such, but my question was specifically about what is happening to our economic *structure.* The consolidation of wealth into the hands of a few is wreaking havoc on the lives of American workers. It is just not possible for the little guy to get a foothold anymore; he is immediately swallowed by one of the conglomerates. Outsourcing has taken away well-paying American jobs. People are becoming low-paid cogs in a mammoth corporate system that does not recognize them as valued workers, or even human beings, anymore. They are "human resources" to be pushed aside the moment a child laborer in Bangladesh is able to take the job for less.

Look at who owns what in this country. Talk to workers about how their lives have changed in the past 20 years. The entire corporate structure - how people are paid, how much they are paid, and what benefits are provided - has changed so much that allowing companies to buy each other sounds like a band-aid in the face of the middle class-destroying structure that has already been created. Do you really think that an estate tax and allowing corporations to buy each other is going to do enough to put people back to work in secure jobs at a wage that allows families to thrive?

[social_critic]

257. But the war and our imperial posture are a big part of the problem

If we didn't spend several hundred extra billion dollars a year fighting wars and buying useless toys for the military, we would have a much lower national debt.

The question regarding the poor income distribution is vexing. The question is fairly simple, we have to reduce the supply of low skilled workers into the work force, and increase the supply of high skilled workers. Easier said than done, but this should be the overall objective.

The health care system needs to be fixed, and this could involve reducing medicare and medicaid benefits while extending health care to everybody. In other words, I don't see a reason why we have a medical care elite (old people and poor people) who get deluxe treatment while everybody else is left to wing it. It's better to just have basic coverage for everybody. I think this would really flex the job market because companies will hire more if they don't have to worry about the health care costs, and people will quit a lot easier if they don't have to worry about health coverage. I would also like to see less defensive medicine, which means we have to kill all the lawyers.

And of course we do need to become more competitive - and this means reducing the US dollar versus yuan imbalance. To accomplish this, we need to stop the flood of bonds the chinese are buying, which means balancing the budget. To balance the budget we have to cut costs (and the military budget sure looks like a fat cow), and also raise taxes a little bit.

I've listed these solutions before, but I don't mind repeating it over and over again. Maybe it'll stick somewhere.

[defendandprotect]

40. Most of the world has long understood the evils of capitalism... where have you been?

An alternative? Democratic Socialism --

That has ALWAYS been the alternative --

You can't have a democracy without economic democracy -- and capitalism

is a not that --

Capitalism is about moving a nation's wealth and natural resources from the many

to the few -- and it has done that quite successfully all over the world -- and

here at home in America -- perhaps you haven't noticed?

[social_critic]

56. What's democratic socialism?

You mean like 21st century socialism? Cuba? Venezuela? When I hear people discuss socialism, they skate all over the map.

[defendandprotect]

62. Socially responsible economic systems --

not profit over people --

Most of the European economies combine social responsibility with their economic

systems -- those countries that have had retirement systems and labor unions and

universal health care --

you know, those who don't just fund a MIC as America does!


Socialism is respected all over the world --

If you're confusing it with Hitler/NAZI's it's because the original NAZI party was

about social concerns -- women's rights, abortion, labor, unions, health care, etal --

AFTER Hitler took over the party all of that was tossed out.


Or maybe you confuse it with communism?

J. Edgar Hoover never referred to the USSR without calling it "totalitarian socialism" --

or "totalitarian communism" -- in other words, a fascist system.

[social_critic]

85. Europeans are capitalists

Don't get confused. The basic economic system in Europe is capitalism. They got stock exchanges, private property, income taxes, value added taxes, royalties, patent registers, copyright laws, and you do get to buy a building and rent the apartments (although right now I wouldn't recommend it, the real estate prices are too high).

I don't confuse anything. Socialism as applied by the Soviet Union (what we usually call communism) really sucks. Socialism such as applied in Cuba really sucks. The Socialism chavez is trying to implement in Venezuela really sucks (but it's more like fascism). I see "socialists" wiggle back and forth trying to make the point that "their socialism" is good because it won't be like the Soviets'. But I have yet to see a real socialist system work. And what you call socialist in Europe, to me is capitalism dressed up with a quality regulatory system.

I'm not a Fox News robot, I don't buy the idea that Obama is socialist, and I don't think public health care is socialist either. It's a good idea, it will help business prosper, and the state does have a role to play helping to set it up.

So let's drink to capitalism, with quality regulatory practices, taxes, and clean politicians who don't sell out.

[defendandprotect]

153. Actually they mix capitalism and socialism ... democratic socialism ...

Again -- no system is free which is preceded by the word "totalitarian."

That was the case in both Russia and Germany --

Capitalism is over -- except what will be kept in place by corporatism -- i.e., fascism.

[social_critic]

172. I call it democratic capitalism

I don't think we have the same dictionary, that's all. I call it democratic capitalism. I reserve the word "socialist" for the USSR and it's spawns. Cuba claims to be socialist. As long as it does, the name is taken, and it's associated with a corrupt and repressive regime. If you don't like democratic capitalism, then you will have to come up with something different.

[defendandprotect]

187. Capitalism is associated with corrupt and repressive regimes ... America, for instance!

Socialism is respected throughout the world -- that's why Hitler took over the

NAZI party in Germany -- because it was well respected for its social endeavors/stands.

Cuba is a country held hostage by America for more than 60 years.

Much as Haiti has been --

You can't have democracy without economic democracy --

and capitalism isn't it -- rather it's a system of oppression -- an evil.

And evils can't be regulated -- we've just found this out again after 70 years post-New Deal!

New Deal was one of the largest stimulus packages ever put in place -- and its underlying

force was social concerns and social responsibility to people and community -- to nature and

the planet!

[TBF]

94. Alternative: Worldwide Socialism

No more empire, no more war, no more exploiting others. You can pick your head up off the floor now.

[social_critic]

103. World Wide Socialism? The reign of tyrants and fools

Ugh. Now you are getting nasty. I can only respond by jokingly quoting from my friend V:

"Voila! In view humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously
as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of fate.

This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of
the “vox populi” now vacant, vanished.

However, this valorous visitation of a bygone vexation
stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal
and virulent vermin, van guarding vice and vouchsafing
the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.

The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive
not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall
one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.

Verily this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose,
so let me simply add that it’s my very good honour to
meet you and you may call me V."

[TBF]

105. Man in a mask indeed. Enjoy your day. nt

[BzaDem]

6. Actually, it's a response to not having a say in the people running government. n/t

[girl gone mad]

8. Not true.

These uprisings started with the self-immolation of an impoverished street vendor, who was weary of struggling with oppressive poverty while those in power or connected to power were allowed to extract bribes and live high on the hog. The predictable commodities inflation that has directly resulted from our absurd monetary policies and the immense sums of money we've shoveled at Wall Street added fuel to the spark.

[social_critic]

92. The commodities price rises can be blamed on the chinese

The Chinese abandoned old style communism, and are gradually moving towards a form of fascist capitalism. I don't like fascist capitalism, but it does grow the Chinese economy like crazy. And this means the Chinese want to consume stuff. The Chinese haven't been shoveling money into Wall Street, they mostly buy US bonds. The Indians are also guilty, they had a quasi-socialist model for many years, and began to liberalize it and grow like crazy (although not as much as the Chinese, who have spectacular growth).

I suggest you point your fingers at these parties. If you want them to stop growing and getting wealthiers, you need to suggest they adopt Marxism. That should put their economies in the doldrums, and they can go back to starving like they used to.

[Countdown_3_2_1]

10. Bingo.

Bottom line: all politics are local.
Whats happening in Egypt is the natural outcome of a dictator's brutal repression.
It has nothing to do with global economies.

People in Egypt yearn to be free. They are not making an economic statement.

[bread_and_roses]

25. "nothing to do with global economies."

:rofl:

[social_critic]

104. Laugh, Laugh, Laug

When you have nothing to say, it's better to laugh.

[defendandprotect]

47. Of course it has to do with "global economies" ... US taxpayer has paid for this dictatorship ....

US has supplied the arms/weapons -- American taxpayers paid for it all !!

American taxpayers are slaves to our MIC and our weapons manufacturing -- !!

That's pretty much our entire economy!!

And we're exporting this idea in arming Mubarak and his military force which he

is likely to use now to destroy these citizens of Egypt.

Of course they are making an "economic statement" -- 50% of Egyptians are living

in poverty. An economic system which has provided billions for Mubarak --

$40 BILLION DOLLARS KEEP OUT OF THE COUNTRY -- AND PERHAPS AS MUCH AS $70 billion -- !!

Globalization is only possible under capitalism -- and corporate rule!

[social_critic]

106. We didn't pay for this dictatorship

We helped them, largely by giving them weapons. This was done to help Israel, and it's a result of the Camp David accords. For which a few guys got Nobel Prizes. Which reminds me, the Nobel Committee is having difficulty finding suitable peace prize candidates.

You can't show me where the $40 to $70 billion is.

And no, this isn't about the global economy. Even if we did give them a few dollars and a few military trinkets, and even if this was done to help Israel keep its southern flank trouble free, that's not "GLOBAL". The US and Israel are not GLOBAL.

The atmosphere is GLOBAL. The ocean is GLOBAL. We're just a piece of the puzzle.

[defendandprotect]

190. "Made in USA" ... jets, tanks and tear gas cannisters ... attacking Egyptian protesters ...

Of course we have paid for this dictatorship --

and we have kept Mubark propped up --

You can't show me where the $40 to $70 billion is.

You're right -- and it's completely disingenuous of you to say anything like that.

I'm sure the Egyptian people would like to know where their money did go --

I imagine the US knows -- but it is certainly at the least $40 billion and possibly $70 billion!


It's also time to stop supporting rightwing Israel Fundi/Hawks and their warmongering and

warmaking -- and stop supplying them with weapons!


Capitalism's effort to exploit humanity doesn't end at our borders -- it includes

"harvesting slave labor all over the world" -- and that includes Egypt!



http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/news/middle-east/2001-rights-ngo-claims-that-israeli-planes-carrying-crowd-dispersal-weapons-have-arrived-in-egypt

[social_critic]

203. it's certain but I can't show it to you

You got to be pulling my leg. So it's a certainty but of course you can't show me anything to back it up. So where do you get your certainty from? Are you getting access to secret CIA files?

[defendandprotect]

205. Are you saying Mubarak ran honest accounts with Egypt/Egyptians --?

And that the Egyptians are wrong about what he has stolen and stashed away

off-shore?

[social_critic]

213. No and Yes

I don't think he ran honest accounts. I suspect he's a crook. But I don't think the Egyptians have any idea of how much he stole. I doubt he's worth $70 billion like you claim. But time will tell.

Do you know what I think? It's baloney. Why do I think so? Because baloney flies when these events happen.

[defendandprotect]

221. Have a feeling the Egyptians have a better idea of what's missing $$ than you do....

Whether $40 billion or $70 billion -- Obviously the US knows where it is --

[girl gone mad]

49. Bullshit.

This event is directly tied to destructive neoliberal global economic policies.

The CIA apparently didn't see it coming, but those who have been watching what's been happening to world economies certainly did. You can only push people so far. They're not going to work like slaves for crumbs when they can see the people at the top are being rewarded handsomely for screwing them over.

[social_critic]

124. Destructive Neoliberal Global Economic Policies

You are inspiring my muse

My evil thoughts of profits inspire this song
I really do love you, but your views are wrong
National, Continental, Global makes your thing
And I'm left here alone, playing on my string

Chorus:

Destructive, Neoliberal, Global Economic Policies!
Commies took me to the cleaners, I'm on the run!
Destructive, Neoliberal, Global Economic Policies!
The commies made me hungry, I had to eat my clone!

Reminds me of hyperbolic syllabic sesquedali mystic.

More later.

[Catherina]

90. You haven't been following. They certainly are. A key demand is an end to privatization

There are other economic demands too. You need to follow more closely.

[social_critic]

91. A key demand isn't the end to privatization

The key demand is Mubarak's ouster. They also want free speech, constitutional reforms to allow independent parties to participate in electins, and an end to the emergency period.

You would have a lot more credibility if you attributed the ideas to yourselves, rather than making believe the world is interested in being part of your orwellian nightmare. The Soviet Union fell, remember? Why try to bring it back?

[Scruffy1]

9. AWESOME

Spent the afternoon at a meeting with Egyptian academics here in the USA. One thing that the press hasn't told anyone is that under the current constitution it really makes no difference if Mubarak goes because the ruling party will still have complete control since no opposition can get on the ballot unless they are approved by the party in power. Currently foreign investors are required to give 20% equity in any corporation they operate in Egypt to an Egyptian national which also will serve to benefit a small number of insiders entrenched within the system. The whole system must go before any meaningful change can happen. Sorry for poor typing but I've got a pesky kitten with sharp claws who likes climbing my leg and dancing on the keyboard.

[socialist_n_TN]

15. The part about the foreign investors being required..........

to give 20% is something that Naomi Klein's book mentioned too. Not specificially to Egypt, but basically as a bribe to local PTBs WHEREVER THEY ARE and either de facto or de jure, to allow the international capitalists to loot their countries.

The Freidmanistas like to point to all the "local" millionaires that are created under their system of disaster capitalism, not mentioning the fact that those millionaires are ALL local insiders and members of the "haves" of their countries. In addition, they NEVER mention that for every local millionaire that's created, something like 750,000 of the OTHER citizens of these countries fall from middle class into poverty.

Capitalism is Evil and Satanic. You do God's work when you fight capitalism.

[social_critic]

33. Get the holy water and buy more stock

The 20 % requirement does sound inefficient. But we don't have all the details. Maybe the locals have to come up with 20 % of the equity?

International capitalists don't "loot their coountries". Foreign investment is what made the US thrive in the past, foreign investment has created booms in Chile, Brazil, South Korea, and other nations. It doesn't really matter if local millionaires are created or not. The key is to have the local economy benefit. Some countries know how to guide and control foreign investment, and benefit from it. Norway is the gold standard. Others, like Nigeria, are corrupt and inefficient, and they waste the opportunity. To each his own.

[defendandprotect]

52. "Buy more stock" so small investors can get ripped off again -- ?

And so that we can bail out Wall Street again?

How many times have we bailed out capitalism and their "too big to fail" companies now?


International capitalists don't "loot their coountries". Foreign investment is what made the US thrive in the past, foreign investment has created booms in Chile, Brazil, South Korea, and other nations. It doesn't really matter if local millionaires are created or not. The key is to have the local economy benefit. Some countries know how to guide and control foreign investment, and benefit from it. Norway is the gold standard. Others, like Nigeria, are corrupt and inefficient, and they waste the opportunity. To each his own.

Capitalism is a recent scam -- came with the "discoverers" based on Christian corporatism ...

or fascism in Northern Italy. Basically invented by the Vatican/RCC when Feudalism was no

longer sufficient to run their Papal States.

First things it gave us was genocide and slavery.

[social_critic]

57. Very eclectic post, but hard to say what's real in it

Slavery is mentioned in the Bible. I believe this comes earlier than capitalism. Genocide is a lot older than capitalism. I suggest you look up this word using a search engine: "CARTHAGE".

I think you failed to respond to my comment - which you highlighted in bold face. Maybe you were so shocked to read it, you short circuited and started sputtering. I'd be interested if you do try to respond in a logic and well thought out fashion.

Look, I'm not trying to get you enraged or anything like that. I am trying to show you it's difficult for you to back up some of the claims you make because you tend to use a shot gun approach. And this makes you lose credibility.

[defendandprotect]

60. Thanks for the insight into your thinking ....

Slavery is mentioned in the Bible. I believe this comes earlier than capitalism.

Are you saying bibical notions of slavery were based on capitalism?

Certainly they were based on profit and not humanity or morality -- I'll give you that!


Genocide is a lot older than capitalism. I suggest you look up this word using a search engine: "CARTHAGE".

Genocide of the Native American was what I was referring to --

you know, post-"discoverers" -- ???

And enslavement of the African here -- post-"discoverers" -- ????


My apologies for throwing so much at you at one time --

Maybe you better throw that "highlighted comment" at us one more time?

[social_critic]

72. No problem, I really enjoy to show you the way

Biblical slavery is based on real slavery. I used the Bible because so many of you read it and are familiar with it.

I don't see why limit yourself to genocide of the native americans. After all we have been into genocide from the gitgo. We who are alive today are the descendants of the most genocidal race on the planet. Aren't you proud of being on top?

Enslavement of Africans took place way before the discovery of America by Mr C. Columbus (I assume you mean that when you say "post discoverers"). Don't you remember the movie "Gladiator"? They had black slaves in that movie. Or if you want to be a bit more scholarly, I'd like to remind you the Egyptians were using Nubian slaves around 3000 BCE.

Next week's lesson: The use of slaves in the Greek silver mines, and its impact on Greek art.

[defendandprotect]

77. Organized patriarchal religion is based on racist, sexist and homophobic beliefs ...

Biblical slavery is based on real slavery. I used the Bible because so many of you read it and are familiar with it.

If you are pointing to the racism of religion, we'd all agree --

The Bible was still being used as an excuse for Segregation, Inc. in the 1960's in Congress!

And, in fact, Papal Bulls on both the Native American and the African enslaved here

called for their enslavement/conversion -- and/or their murder.

It was the official license for murder of both groups.

Nonetheless, the native American had no concept of private property and their economy was

based on trading.

Again -- capitalism is not a system that is ancient -- it is comparatively new --



I don't see why limit yourself to genocide of the native americans. After all we have been into genocide from the gitgo. We who are alive today are the descendants of the most genocidal race on the planet. Aren't you proud of being on top?

That could be an interesting spiritual question -- why are we alive at this moment when the full

reality of the pollution and destruction of nature is upon us? Some say the strongest spirits

among us take on the most difficult lives. If that were so, I presume we'd be sitting on the

ground somewhere swatting flies off of a malnourished child? Perhaps we are the reincarnated

souls who pushed along this capitalistic destruction and violence which kept it in place?


Enslavement of Africans took place way before the discovery of America by Mr C. Columbus (I assume you mean that when you say "post discoverers"). Don't you remember the movie "Gladiator"? They had black slaves in that movie. Or if you want to be a bit more scholarly, I'd like to remind you the Egyptians were using Nubian slaves around 3000 BCE.

Next week's lesson: The use of slaves in the Greek silver mines, and its impact on Greek art.
social_critic


However, the period I am pointing to is that of capitalism's introduction on this continent --

coinciding with the murder of Native Americans and Africans enslaved here.

Again -- subject: this continent and capitalism --

[social_critic]

86. OK, so you want to force the recipe

You are like a guy trying to cook a large bowl of vegetable soup, claiming that vegetables only exist as of the time you bought the pot and lit the fire. A lot of what you mention is nonsense, because all of those institutions existed and were used quite often before you bought your pot and lit your fire. You may want to make believe they didn't, but I won't allow you that delusion. It's not good for your mental health.

The "discovery of America" seems to be stuck in your mind as a singular event. I, on the other hand, see it as part of a continuum. The natives in the Americas lost out because of circumstances. With a little luck, they would have invaded Europe and enslaved Europeans. Same goes for Africans, the Bantu did a pretty good job killing other Africans as they spread over the continent, didn't they? So I don't buy excuses, and I don't have these delusions about noble natives. All of us are bad guys.

[TBF]

95. No, not all of us are "bad guys". That is y'all and your capitalism.

Many of us on here make no excuses for your crimes and want nothing to do with your continued exploitation.

[social_critic]

144. Oh sorry, I thought you were one of us

I don't know why you would have to make excuses for my crimes. I didn't ask you to make excuses for my crimes at all. I just thought you were one of us, who think we all share the burden of our nasty human nature.

It's nice to think there are people who are self righteous enough to think they don't share this burden. Me, I'm sorry we killed the dodo and I wasn't even born at the time.

You don't want to have anything to do with exploitation? That's so difficult to do. Do you realize when you put on those sneakers, where they got made? What's the life like of the person who stitched the sneakers? Who put them aboard the container ship coming to the US? What's life like for the sailors who work on that ship? What's fueling the ship?

Come on, think about it. You can't avoid being part of exploitation. What you can do is understand your role in it, and see if you can learn to live with yourself afterwards. And then figure out how you can honestly do something to improve things. You got a lot to learn, so start thinking.

[riderinthestorm]

134. "We" do have all the details. Read Naomi Kleins work. nt

[social_critic]

146. I got lots of people telling me to read Naomi Klein's work

But I read the outlines, and I don't think there's much I can learn from her. I listen to her on the radio, she's "OK". Sometimes I agree with her, sometimes I don't. But I think I can teach her more than she can teach me. I really do have to go visit her.

[defendandprotect]

50. +1000% -- k/r

:)

[maryf]

12. Big K&R!

capitalism is destroying the world, time to fight like an Egyptian!

[Marblehead]

14. capitalism is ruthless

by nature and apparently we can not regulate it.

[socialist_n_TN]

16. Regulating capitalism is like riding the tiger..........

It's EXTREMELY hard to do and you're ALWAYS in danger of being eaten.

[social_critic]

87. it sure is a bitch

I don't think we'll ever get it right. But it's better than the alternative. We can't regulate a socialist regime where power is concentrated in the hands of the state. We can't allow the government to become the employer, because the employer will always tend to abuse the working class. Which means we got to keep the two roles separate, the government here, with a chair and a whip, and the employer over there, snarling and trying to eat. If we allow the two to morph into a single entity, they turn into a monster. Time after time, it has turned out to be a monster which devoured the people.

[TheKentuckian]

117. Your route leads to the same destination but based on the squeezing mentality of the corporation

Eventually capital captures the government and fascism ensues.

You talk a lot about decentralizing and dividing power while only giving lip service to making it happen in the current system.

Nobody is nor has any serious intention of regulating the multinationals, banks, the health care industry, and the extraction industry in any way they don't design themselves to limit competition and funnel wealth with zero return, if at all possible.

Believers in the greatness of "regulated capitalism" refuse to accept the reality that that period is the exception rather than the rule, was extremely circumstantial, and refuse to reconcile that capitalism only functions by dumping its downside on the commons and the consumer or that the model only works with ever expanding consumption (despite finite resources) and constant growth, which means by definition the system is not sustainable.

[social_critic]

127. I think what I think without taking orders from anyone

There you go again. You guys are always telling me what i think, or what my intentions are. You don't know what I do in real life when I'm not sitting here writing away and polishing my style.

I have a pretty serious intent to regulate multinationals. And I do work at it. That's my specialty. I also make a living explaining to multinationals how to make profits within a regulatory framework they don't like, but must learn to live with.

The system isn't sustainable. But neither is communism/socialism going to deliver a sustainable system. Both are based on the use of renewable resources. And today, right now, if you want to get ahead in politics, you are not going to convince anybody the answer is to forget it and dream of a nice straw mattress in a warehouse they share with 300 people. Hell, I got these guys bitching at me because I tell them to stop using their credit cards.

Long term, I think all of you guys need to stop having so many children. And Americans do need to learn to drive smaller vehicles. I don't even want to mention smaller houses at this time, and get smeared as if I were giving a speech in 1979.

But do take me seriously when I suggest smaller vehicles. Meanwhile I'll try to figure out a cheap source of green energy you can use without blowing yourselves up to smithireens.

[TheKentuckian]

145. No one is telling you what to think or what you think

but what we are getting from you.

Your system is failed by design and thus goes on the old scrap heap with all manner of set ups.

You aren't going to regulate the multi-nationals nor are they going to be convinced to change. Capitalism leads to fascism. Instead of an almighty state we'll get all mighty corporations dictating our lives as the price of employment or the chance at employment.

You seem to want to shine a light on other systems flaws and/or undesirability without facing the negatives of the one you are championing.

[social_critic]

147. But multinationals ARE regulated, my friend

The system hasn't failed by design. Multinationals ARE regulated. Socialism leads to fascism as much as capitalism leads to fascism. So it cuts both ways. I'd rather have separation of state and corporation, you may say. Mighty corporations tend to fight with each other, so they get too busy to dictate our lives as much as an almighty state which also happens to own the corporations. The almighty state is my biggest fear. I don't like the Patriot Act, I don't like dictators, I don't like to be beaten because I said the wrong thing, and I hate being told to wear red.

I am not championing anything, really. I saw the original blog title about the revolution in Egypt and global capitalism, and I thought it was baloney. So here we are.

Since you guys take the side of communism, then I take the side of regulated capitalism, the idea is to remind you neither system works that well anyway, and we got to keep on our toes - but regulated capitalism beats communism any day.

I can criticize capitalism, but why do it here? That's nonsense. You guys are already tearing into it, and from what I see most of you don't really do nuances, so it's useless to discuss things when I got people telling me corporations can't be regulated, when I know they are. So why bother? All I can do is show you the basic basics.

[TheKentuckian]

201. Regulated by laws they write via lobbyist by captured governments

and wholly owned subsidiaries operating as government entities.

You are concerned about the all powerful state and ignore that corporations capturing governments creates the same effective thing or worse. No question, possibly worse.

All routes to totalitarianism need to be avoided.

[Statistical]

128. Finland, Germany, France, Canada would disagree.

[social_critic]

148. A fellow regulator, at last.

I felt so lonely.

[kenny blankenship]

18. On Democracy Now yesterday very knowledgeable folks made the point that the unrest began

with strikes in foreign owned factories (mostly "manned" by women, so the labor strikes were of women, led by women)
Also, there is an economic power play going on, according to this same amazing roster of guests, between the Army which is the owner of various national industries on one side, and on the other side, the "crony capitalists" people who are partners of global capitalists from Russia and China, who are tied closely to Mubarak Jr. and who, like him, had to resign their NDP offices yesterday. I stumbled into the middle of a brilliant interview on AJE late last night in which the presenter and guest were exploring the same point: that there is evidence, along with the obvious uprising of ordinary people against their rulers, of a struggle within the upper stratum of Egypt's autocracy between two sides with different models of economic development, with the Army trying to push the "global capital" gangs and cronies out of power, but without going so far as to endanger their own base of economic power. They are reaching out to the Muslim Brotherhood now, to split the unified front of the pro-democracy protesters and bring them to terms more quickly.

[defendandprotect]

54. Thank you ....

I've been trying to listen/watch as much of AJE as possible --

and will look for repeats of those discussions -- much of that I didn't know!

:)

[social_critic]

59. This regime is a fascist regime, that's all.

The autocracy is backed up by oligarchs. The oligarchs align with the power structure (political leadership, security forces, armed forces). Foreign companies come and pick off juicy niches, but are forced to share the spoils with the local chieftains.

I see the same thing happening in Venezuela right now. The Chinese are perfecting something similar, coming from the communist direction, they have been underpining their fascist rule with very ruthless capitalism, no regulations, no workers' rights, no independent unions, and a lot of corruption. Its a very troubling trend, when nations from China to Cuba to Egypt to Venezuela to Iran to Belarus to Russia try to use it and teach each other ways to "perfect it".

I think Egypt would have been on a list of "bad guys" a long time ago, but they play ball with the Israelis. The Israelis, as Bibi has shown, are very keen on maintaining the status quo, because the oligarchs ruling Egypt are very flexible when it comes to defending the rights of Palestinians. And we do love our Arab dictators when they play ball, don't we?

[Karmadillo]

20. K&R. Yikes! What if the truth spreads?

nt

[bvar22]

21. K&R

When the Working Class & The Poor realize that we have more in common with each other
than we have in common with the ruling class leadership of BOTH political parties,
we can demand "change" too!


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone


"By their works, you will know them.

[maryf]

23. +100

:fistbump:

[WillyT]

22. HUGE K & R !!!

:kick:

[tekisui]

24. KNR!~

[Catherina]

32. REc'd but millions of capitalists will rush to tell you it's not. n/t

[social_critic]

34. it's not

I think what we got here is a failure to communicate.

[BOG PERSON]

51. some people you can't reach...

that is, they just don't listen when you talk reasonable...

[Catherina]

67. What we have here is a lot more than simply "a failure to communicate. " n/t

[TBF]

97. LOL - no what we have here is someone who is lost. nt

[Poboy]

35. recommend

[Raksha]

38. K & R

[Starry Messenger]

41. k&r

Although, most of the history of the last 300 years has been a result of capitalism. These things don't happen in a vacuum.

[defendandprotect]

55. K/R --

[kenny blankenship]

89. Another good read here

The Egyptian Mirror
Salon February 6, 2011
Glenn Greenwald discovers vampirism rampant in US media's reportage on Egypt- the alternate to the vampirism theory is that the press corps is staffed by mammals who fail the Mirror Test: they can fog the mirror, they cast a reflection in it, but they can't recognize their own image in what they see.

Egypt’s Ire Turns to Confidant of Mubarak’s Son
NYTimes February 6, 2011

[natrlron]

107. Blame falls more directly on the US

While there is much that can be blamed on global capitalism, the economic and political misery of the Eqyptian people really is more a function of 1) the consistent unequivocal support of Mubarek by the United States because he supported our military/industrial interests, and 2) he and the Egyptian elite had no interest in improving the lot of the average Eqyptian ... call them the Republicans of Eqypt.

For more about our foreign policy blinders in Eqypt and elsewhere, see my blog http://preservingamericangreatness.blogspot.com

[social_critic]

110. Blame falls more directly on the hyksos

I have a thesis: The Egyptian people have been mauled by history. The US is just a latecomer. I'd say Britain had a lot more to do with the outcome than the US.

[Mojeoux]

113. k and r for the truth

[Poboy]

116. .

[Brilliantrocket]

118. How can we reconcile capitalism and environmentalism?

If someone can do that , I'd be happy.

[social_critic]

125. Smile be happy

Norwegians do it. The Swiss do it. The Spanish do it. They are capitalists, and they keep pretty clean countries.

What I never did figure out was how to reconcile communism with enviromentalism. Chernobyl, the Aral Sea, Baku, the Urals Nuclear Disaster...

[defendandprotect]

157. Capitalism is based on exploitation of everything it touches ...

nature, natural resources, animal-life -- and even othe rhuman beings!

[social_critic]

174. You are right.

And? If we don't exploit nature, natural resources, animal life, and each other, what are we to do? Do you want us to stop eating steaks and tomatoes? Or do you want me to stop hiring employees for my little company? I don't really understand what's your problem, we are alive. We are part of our environment, and of course we exploit it. We're like very large mechanized ants moving leaves back and forth.

[defendandprotect]

176. Eating vegetables isn't exploiting nature -- eating animals is ....

Huge mechanized farming areas exploit nature -- kitchen gardens don't --

You have no profit without labor which you presumably recognize, therefore, all labor

should be in partnership with you, sharing equally.

"Of course we exploit it" -- ??? Like BP and the Gulf -- ?

Like ExxonMobil/auto industry and Global Warming -- ?

In doing that, capitalism has put suicidal exploitation in place which will take all

of us with them!


We're like very large mechanized ants moving leaves back and forth.

Ants are life-affirming --

Capitalism is life-destroying --

[social_critic]

200. Where do you get all these slogans?

You are really inspired.

"Ants are life affirming". I wonder if a worm being eaten alive by army ants would feel it is being affirmed or just eaten.

[Raksha]

212. I guess you've never heard of the concept of sustainability.

It's a process perfected by Mama Nature over millions of years, in which everything gets recycled, including you and me eventually. Humans would do well to emulate that system as closely as possible, in agriculture and every other economic activity. Capitalism is based on the idea of unlimited growth, which is inherently unsustainable ,self-destructive and ultimately suicidal. Eventually, you run out of resources to exploit, like a cancer that devours its host.

[social_critic]

229. Wrong guess

I guess you never heard of me.

[Raksha]

239. I've gotten a pretty good picture of you through your replies to others on this thread,

and I've come to many of the same conclusions about you that they have.

[Statistical]

126. Capitalism is evil? ROFL. Tell that to Finland, Sweeden, Canada, France, Germany.

All countries with very strong and vibrant middle classes, strong social safety net, and progressive redistribution of wealth all funded by taxes on capitalistic economic systems.

If I had to leave the US I would much rather live in Finland, or Germany than in Venezuala, Cuba, Vietnam, or China.

[social_critic]

149. I'm leaving Venezuela and moving to Europe

Geez, I really needed help here.

[Recursion]

166. In what sense is Egypt "capitalist"?

The entire economy is run by the government.

[social_critic]

173. Exactly, and this is one reason why the Egyptians are revolting

The entire economy is "guided" by the government. Egyptian capitalism is mostly about cronyism, although they do allow the little guy to own his shop. But these regimes which practice a form of corrupt and crony capitalism are nowhere. They can't get off first gear.

In a sense, India was similar. Eventually, when they saw China growing as fast as it was, they woke up and began to dismantle their quasi-socialist crony system, and started on the road to a more enlightened form of capitalism. They have a long way to go, but their economy is growing very fast, and poverty is going down. They do need to control their population, or they'll lose the race because there aren't enough resources in this world to feed 2 billion indians.

[HEyHEY]

263. How dare you bring facts into this!

[woo me with science]

170. Egyptians Rally Behind Released Google Executive

http://slatest.slate.com/id/2284300/

Egyptians Rally Behind Released Google Executive

Hoping to bring a new surge of momentum to the protests, Egyptian demonstrators are rallying behind released Google executive and "cyber activist" Wael Ghonim, calling on him to join them in Tahrir Square. (He tweeted that he's on his way, but was blocked by police). Over 120,000 people have signed a Facebook petition supporting Ghonim as the movement's leader, and Al Jazeera writes that he is "potentially some sort of figurehead for ... they have been looking for a leader." Ghonim set up the Facebook page that catalyzed the protests, and was taken into custody by Egyptian authorities on Jan. 28. On Monday, he was finally released. The opposition is calling for one million Egyptians to convene in Tahrir Square today, and CBS and Al Jazeera say that Ghomin's presence could help attract demonstrators. "Live video from the square showed a larger crowd than the previous day," CBS says, "and accounts from Cairo suggested it would swell much more over the course of the day."

Read original story in CBS News | Tuesday, Feb. 8, 2011

[social_critic]

175. Shake and bake time, tyrants

These boots are made for walking, and that's just what they'll do, these boots are made for walking, and they're gonna walk all over you.

[Poboy]

177. .

[yurbud]

189. they should be going after the banks and stock markets--the governments are just errand boys

[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.