LTTE - The Relationship Between College and Jobs

[proud2BlibKansan]

To the Editor:

Your editorial hints at the real elephant in the room for today’s college-educated young people: it’s not being unemployed, but being locked into working at low-wage jobs.

As a college professor, I vividly see this jobs/education mismatch when I run into former students still waiting tables at local restaurants years after getting their B.A. or master’s degrees.

How can we tell young people that getting more education is the key to financial success amid rapidly shrinking chances of actually finding a middle-class job?

Do we really have a “new knowledge economy” when three of the fastest growing United States occupations — home health aide, warehouse clerk and medical assistant — pay on average less than $14 an hour?

Janet Belsky
Murfreesboro, Tenn., Dec. 15, 2010

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/21/opinion/l21college.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[marmar]

1. K & R

nt

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Another KnR

[SheilaT]

3. My younger son graduated

cum laude in May, 2009 from the University of Tulsa, major in psychology, minor in marketing. He has no interest in finding work in the psych field, and hasn't done anything to use the marketing. He's delivering pizzas. Not my favorite career choice for him, but at least he's supporting himself. I don't send him any money, other than a hundred dollars for his birthday and at Christmas.

We spoke last night on the phone, and he said that basically everyone he knew either from high school or college, has at some point gone back home to live.

I will say that when he told me he wanted to major in psych, he admitted that it was because he couldn't really think of anything else. I encouraged him to minor in something "useful", which is where the marketing came from. The fact that he's made no effort to find a job that might use what he learned in school bothers me somewhat, but he's also trying to become a stand-up comic and has been doing open mike nights since last spring. He actually has a very realistic idea of how long it will probably take to be successful, and he does not expect to become a famous comic. The important thing is that he's doing what he loves right now, and is self-supporting.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. My son dropped out to play in a band and I didn't discourage him

His band recently won an award for best reggae band in the city. :)

His girlfriend has a degree from an expensive university, makes mortgage sized student loan payments and works retail.

Sad days for these kids.

[Bobbieo]

5. The way things are these days with the bad economy I honestly believe the

best we can do, right now, is ensure today's kids get a proper educaton that will sustain them in today's work force. When a high percentage of high school students don't have the education to get them into the army these days, somethimg is very wrong.

When I graduated from high school in 1940, I was the only one of 17 graduates who went on to college. Then, the war came along and the GI Bill came into affect but that is fading away. Now, we are back to square one. Start out with giving our kids a proper high school education!!!

[Hannah Bell]

7. what is a "proper education" when most jobs pay under $15 an hour?

how much education do you need to deliver pizzas?

the "good jobs" are being reserved for the offspring of the rich.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Amen

[Bobbieo]

18. reading, writing and 'rithmatic - spelling would help a great deal.

Simple basic educaton which ain't happening these days.

[Hannah Bell]

19. bullshit. more children get the 3 r's than ever before in US history.

[JDPriestly]

13. A sixth grade education is plenty for waiting tables.

Also fine if you are going to do childcare.

I began working in childcare back when I was 14. I was waiting tables when I was 17.

The jobs that are available today don't even require a high school diploma.

[davidthegnome]

6. No degree here

My parents often tell me it's because of my lack of a degree that I can't find a decent job. Perhaps they're right. Yet nonetheless I've often pointed out various individuals with masters degrees earning minimum wage or slightly better with a shitty (if any) benefits package. Some of them have little ambition - but others did the best they could and could not find anything resembling a fair wage or financial security.

It's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. I've weighed my options, which are, given my health, location, and available resources somewhat limited. I could get the student loans I'd need - possibly - and spend years paying them back - possibly - if I could find a job that would pay something resembling an actual living wage. Unlikely.

So I decided to educate myself and go into business for myself. So far, that's not going so well, but maybe things will improve. I keep applying for various minimum wage jobs but there's already so many applicants that someone as old as me (26) just doesn't seem the best choice. I'd probably want benefits or maybe a quarter or two more than minimum wage. Well, not really, but I imagine that is often the reasoning. That, or, if I'm 26 and applying for a job washing dishes, many assume that there's something wrong with me. Come to think of it, maybe there is.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. $700 or $800 monthly student loan payments

Nothing wrong with wanting to avoid that kind of debt.

[Pavulon]

12. DO what you enjoy. Life is way to short to chase money

if you love something put you effort there, the money will work out eventually. It sounds stupid but I have seen it work out for many.

Starting businesses is difficult and you will "fail" a few times. But you will also learn. Dont feel bad asking for help or taking it.

[JDPriestly]

14. Fine to do what you love, but if you are going to take on a lot of

debt to do it, you need to know how to pay back that debt. And most jobs today don't pay enough or are not secure enough to justify taking on debt.

You are expendable whether you are educated or not.

You owe the money whether the job pays or not.

[Pavulon]

16. I mean if you love being outdoors and fixing stuff there are jobs

like linemen and tree work that can pay well, are unionized (in some locals) and are not desk jobs. You dont need a degree for that work.

There is a big difference in a IT based degree from UNC and a English Major from Duke. If you work for yourself you are not expendable.

Point was we spend lots of time working, why do something you hate. It will make you sick and you will probably not do that well at it.

And there are high paying jobs out there of all types.

[davidthegnome]

20. Wanting to avoid enormous debt

Is what, so far, has kept me out of college. Although I do have a medical debt (somewhere around 10 grand) I have very little overhead for my business. I'm a middle man for the most part, trying to connect buyer and seller. It was something my Father suggested when he didn't think my future looked very bright. He's helping me out with it - I do owe him a few hundred dollars, which I intend to repay as soon as I can.

For me, it's not so much about doing something I love, it's about finding a (reasonably) practical method to eventually find financial security. Some times I feel as if I could easier jump over the moon - but there it is. Can't say I'm pleased with the way things have gone for me so far, but even if given a choice to do things over again, I don't know what I would do differently. For the most part, the things I love can't gain me any financial profit. Or if they can, I haven't yet figured out how.

I am educated enough to know I'm expendable.

[Pavulon]

25. I would look at college as a business expense

and decide if it's warranted. If a degree will not offer you a financial return based on what you want to do, then don't go. Same for the upside, if you see an opportunity to use the degree to make more money take it.

Your age is a factor as well. Depending on your age and income you may qualify for pell grants, scholarships, and much reduced overall price of admission.

About the things you love, they really can get you there. It may involve doing stuff you dont like (being a wedding photographer to fund the gear to be a landscape photographer) to get there.

At the end we are ell expended by nature. We all die, maybe tomorrow, maybe 70 years from now. It sounds off but make using that time to its best and you are doing fine.

All other measures of success (financial) are fake. best of luck to you.

[pitohui]

30. "do what you love the money will follow" has destroyed SO many lives

i can't tell you how many people i have seen whose lives have been destroyed by this idea that you should do what you love

what happens is that now you still live in poverty AND you destroy your dream, for you learn to hate what you love

starting a business is the last resort for folks like me who are unemployable, it means accepting a lifetime of no benefits and low pay -- even if you luck into a few "good" years that keep you afloat, keep track of all those "bad" years where you earned nothing or even lost money after expenses --

the path to success and a secure financial future is a job with a complete benefits package -- unfortunately, as others say, most such jobs are kept back for the children of the rich and the upper middle class

i don't know what to tell young people today, but i can see that getting higher education didn't work for most people i know (the BEST job they end up w. is teaching, which is OK as long as you're not shot at or accused of touching some brat) and a lot of folks just end up with so much debt that they have the same (or less) disposable income than the person who shrugged off getting a degree

if you can get a job in heavy industry, with benefits, and get known in your industry, that's the best-- it might not pay high, it might not be glamorous, but at least in these jobs you can still get a house, car etc. -- as for your hobbies and your "loves," if you have a secure home base, then you are free to enjoy what you love

making what you love into a low-paying job is truly the road to destroying your whole life, now you have NOTHING in your life that isn't about money and scrabbling to survive, NOTHING

protect and nurture what you love, DON'T make it about money

[Pavulon]

34. Was more about personality and jobs..

there are people who are not going to do well behind a desk. There jobs that pay well and are done outside. I have an engineering background but payed bills operating front loaders and graders after leaving the army before I found something I wanted.

I met guys who choose to do that job and enjoyed it. They were good and got paid pretty well. And they weren't worried about their email or performance review.

Conversely I meet people who are very good designers but would not last on a shop floor. Taking some time and getting to know yourself is valuable.

I enjoy the work I do and the people I am around (in general) and dont feel like the time at work is wasted or stolen from my life. My wife is the same with her job.

Between the field of medical care and precision tooling I can tell you there are jobs that pay and that are not held for rich people. We were both poor as fuck and our parents were not wealthy.

For some the road is not either of these, my point and you covered it is DO NOT measure you life with income earned.

[WCIL]

8. I nearly had a stroke when my daughter told me she wasn't going

back to school for her junior year of college. She had no interest in any major other than English, and didn't want to teach, go to library school, or any of the other things I suggested. She didn't want to waste any more money.

She found a full-time job with TJ MAXX as a department coordinator making $9.50/hr and her insurance costs her $10/week. She lives here while she pays off her student loans, and could probably JUST support herself when those are paid off. I work at another retail chain with several people who have graduated and have much larger student loan bills, with no luck finding a full time job. I wish she had that college degree, but she is happy and at least she has a job.

[Pavulon]

11. The unemployment stats for those with degrees, advanced degrees, and those with no degrees

are striking.

The source article is light but it does source good data. It does pay to get the degree for most people. Even if you dont "use" it.

[JDPriestly]

15. A person is better off with no job and no income than

with a low-paying job and a huge debt.

[Pavulon]

17. Depends on the Degree, English at Duke and MBA at UNC

have different costs and projected income. If you LIKE the work is what is important. You can defer federal loans if needed.

I posted hard numbers on unemployment for degree holding and non degree holding people, it was about 10 split.

[Starry Messenger]

21. k&r

[blueamy66]

22. What would you say is the best major these days?

Just curious.

Cause my step son changed from Environmental Eng to Business...on his Dad's advice. ???? Univ of Florida

[aikoaiko]

24. Medical technoligists or radiologists are solid careers in huge demand that can't be outsourced

these specializations can be had with a four year degree and you don't have to work as hard as nurses.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Health Care

That seems to be a good option these days.

[Nikia]

31. My cousin went back for a nursing degree

After being stuck in clerical jobs after getting a business degree.

[Pavulon]

35. My wife has been practicing for 6 years

and we still have an amazing amount of debt. It is getting paid off but the limit for fed loans (undergrad and advanced) is (was) 250,000 and we passed that in 2nd year of med school. After that you borrow at the prevailing rate.

The hours are horrible for years and you get paid shit for the first years of real work. However IF you like the work, it can pay well.

Anesthesiologists and their nursing staff are quite well compensated. Like all jobs where you LIVE can swing your salary.

[jody]

33. Health professionals particularly nursing. n/t

[Romulox]

23. There can be no labor movement without solidarity.

Perhaps these kids can get jobs washing Toyotas? :hi:

[jody]

26. Degrees with majors for which there will be no demand are the problem. I blame

universities, counselors, parents, and students for the problem and most of all taxpayers who fund public universities to produce graduates with useless degrees.

[Nikia]

27. I have known business and engineering majors who have trouble getting jobs

If you look at job websites, you will often also notice low paying jobs requiring degrees. Maybe a science major would rather make $10/hour in a lab rather than retail but maybe not if that's not what they really wanted to major in anyway. Older people say that corporations used to be willing to train liberal arts majors for corporate positions. Some still do. Others don't even though it is mostly on the job training anyway. Other corporations might not hire an inexperienced college graduate right away for management but will promote college graduates. More and more jobs are either requiring college degrees or preferring people with degrees for promotion.
My recommendation for college students, regardless of field of study, is to get good internships with good companies if possible. If a college student graduates without experience, they should look for any possible experience in their chosen career field, even if the only jobs available to them are temporary, seasonal, part time, or even volunteer positions. Temporary office positions at a job with potentially better jobs might meet a good idea. If one is only able to get a restaurant, retail, or entry level manufacturing job, one should make it a goal of getting into managment even if they are still hoping to get into a different field. It is important in all of these jobs to do as well as possible while getting on the good side of influential people in the organization and industry. Getting a good job is usually about knowing someone who can get you hired.
I don't know if I would encourage people to major in things that they don't like. There are a certain percentage of people in every major who will have trouble finding decent paying work in their field with how the economy is. Not really liking one's field of study and not showing enthusiasm for it, lowers one's chance of getting a decent paying job. They may have been better off getting a high GPA and getting into a corporate training program or shown their talents and abilities to the right person in order to get one of the existing jobs in their preferred field.

[jody]

32. Business majors no longer are needed particularly since the market is flooded with paper diplomas.

Engineering degrees from accredited universities are still an avenue to jobs when the economy recovers however students majoring in science, mathematics, and engineering are rarely Hispanic or African American and increasingly foreign students.

[shimmergal]

28. We wouldn't have to push

very hard to get loan forgiveness programs that would help many of those who pursue "useless degrees." It would help guarantee a job after graduation for a few years, and ensure we DON'T lose a valuable resource---citizens who're taught to examine evidence, to think critically, and to be aware of the mistakes of the past. No wonder so many of the PTB are pushing to eliminate such degrees, or to confine them to the already-wealthy.

Sure, some people can do this on their own, but it's easier and more likely with a good general education. Holders of graduate degrees are the most likely to vote Democratic, by the way.

We do need to get the monkey of high student loans off the backs of young people.