What the hell is wrong with making deals?

[maxrandb]

Seeing some of the postings on DU just make me want to tear out my teeth in frustration. Governing is all about leadership and deal-making. Hell, life itself is all about leadership and deal-making.

The only time I can recall, where a deal was not struck, was the "unconditional surrender" of the Japanese at the end of World War II. Anyone recall what it took to get "that" deal??? Hell, even with that, we didn't embarrass the emperor, or arrest every Japanese citizen. EHeck, even the surrender of Germany in World War II was the result of a "deal".

In our own Civil War, Grant allowed Lee's Confederate army to walk back home if they "agreed" to give up arms, and allowed Lee the dignity of arrival honors when he came to Appomattox.

The Revolutionary War? - Deal making
Armistice on the Korean Peninsula? - Deal making
Wanting to be a doctor, but settling for Naval Officer instead? - Deal making
Weekly grocery list with my bride? - Deal making
Having a dog, a cat, or both? - Deal making

Just about every "effing" thing we do in life requires some type of deal making. It's the only way our society functions.

One of the places in the world where there appears to be no deal-making, or compromise, BY EITHER SIDE, is in the Israeli/Palestinian debacle. That is the perfect example of what you get for the "purist, stick-to-your-guns" rigidity. You end up with 2,000 years of strife, with no end in sight.

Even our great Democratic stalwart FDR had to make some deals to get things done.

If you are hoping for "unconditional surrender", you're never going to get it. I feel like screaming; "My God Man!!!! The 111th Congress just completed two years of the most historic, progressive achievement since Lincoln freed the slaves, and YOU COMPLAIN because there was some compromise???"

[FiveGoodMen]

1. "You get seven wishes", he said.

"What's the catch?" I asked.

"Just your soul. You'll never miss it," he replied.

Compromising with evil is evil.

[maxrandb]

27. You know

I heard someone on the radio say the exact same thing....

I think his name was Lush Rimbaugh, or something like that :eyes:

[FiveGoodMen]

29. You might be surprised to learn that Rush and I use thousands of the same words

But not to the same end.

[maxrandb]

38. No

I think saying "Making a deal with Republicans is like selling your soul to evil", is about the same as saying "Making a deal with Democrats is like selling your soul to evil".

[sad sally]

61. said it before and will say again, every compromise was surrender and invited new demands.

[pokerfan]

65. deal making

http://slowpokecomics.com/blog/index.php/2010/12/this-weeks-cartoon-the-off-center-center

[Foo Fighter]

77. Heh.

Elsewhere, President Obama said he was “delighted” by his new deal with Republicans, in which he agreed to give them his lunch money.

From http://www.borowitzreport.com/

[DireStrike]

2. Tell that to the republicans when they're in power.

[JuniperLea]

9. Blah blah blah...

Same old story, same old song and dance we've been hearing since the primary.

You just wait until your father gets home!

Sheesh.

[DireStrike]

28. I think you misunderstand.

Democrats make deals all the time. Republicans don't have to. They just get what they want somehow. Less than 60 majority? Not a problem. Minority? Whatever, we still get what we want. Deal? Fuck that.

Somebody teach the Democrats how to do that.

[JuniperLea]

30. So we can be as ruthless and ugly and WRONG as they are?

No thanks!

[Hello_Kitty]

51. No, were supposed to make deals with the ruthless, ugly, wrong people.

Where they get more of what they want than we do.

[Kweli4Real]

62. What?

Did you NOT want:

Extension of middleclass tax rates
Extension of U/C
Increase in the Foodstamp program
DADT
START
911/1st Responders
a start on Judicial appointments?

These and, no doubt, many other things can in the "DEAL" that you call the Cave.

[niceypoo]

81. Two more years of what caused the whole mess in the first place

[DireStrike]

71. Seems to be effective.

[Foo Fighter]

76. Exactly.

When the Republicans are in the majority, all we hear from the Dems is how powerless they are because they're in the minority. The end result is that the Republicans get whatever they want.

When the Dems are in the majority, all we hear from them is how powerless they are because of the Republicans obstruct everything and the Dems can't do anything about it. And the end result is that the Republicans get whatever they want.

The truth of the matter is that "both" parties (and I use that term loosely) are funded by the same entities and thus, are beholden to the same interests. (The interests of the top 1%, for those that haven't been paying attention.) Their sole function is to take money from the taxpayers and funnel it to the rich, all the while pretending to represent the interests of the working class. It's nothing more that a dog-and-pony show.

And this will never change until all elections are 100% publicly funded. And since those in power would have to vote for that funding change, and since they LOVE the power they garner under the current system, don't expect that change to happen anytime soon.

Or ever, for that matter.

[Lisa D]

14. Republican politicians have the mentality of children

That's why they're almost impossible to work with. Everything with them is Mine! Mine! Mine! Or No! No! No!
That's why this lame duck session has been so great. The democrats found a way to take some toys away from the obnoxious brats.

[JuniperLea]

17. Well said...

I'm finding the brutal revelation of their shallowness refreshing.

[treestar]

33. Wrong. They compromise too.

Saying otherwise proves the sayer of such a thing has no knowledge about any previous administrations.

[DireStrike]

73. Republicans from 2000-2006 compromised, significantly? Show me.

[Foo Fighter]

78. Crickets... n/t

[NeedleCast]

3. Many on DU don't understand that when you demand all or nothing deals

you usually get nothing.

[JuniperLea]

4. Yep... unless you are a despot...

You must deal, compromise, sacrifice, find common ground, etc.

Despots and three-year-olds do none of these.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

5. There's deals and there's deals!

[tridim]

6. It's an after effect of BushCo, IMO.

Lots of people forgot how our government is supposed to work over those eight horrific years.

[JuniperLea]

11. Exactly right...

They want a despot in power again, only one from our side this time... and they lose all sense of what is right, what is decent, what is fair, and what is Democratic in the process.

[Crystal Clarity]

45. Exactly JuniperLea. Good point.

K&R to the OP as well.

[Lisa D]

7. Kick Ass Post

You're exactly right. Some deals suck but must be made for the greater good. It's always good to put everything you want on the table (and more)--then find a way to make it work for you.

[hobbit709]

8. The rule in deal making is to NOT tell the other side everything you're willing to give up

before you even start.

[JuniperLea]

15. Ummm... that actually IS deal making...

Here's what I really really want, and here's what I'm willing to dicker with. Push, shove... push back... shove back... etc.

[hobbit709]

23. You've never haggled at a market in the Middle East have you?

[JuniperLea]

26. What's that got to do with the price of turnips in January?

And how many Middle Eastern Congresscritters do we have anyway?

[hobbit709]

34. The one side tells you the asking price

you tell what you're willing to pay. After many insults and much commentary, he gives a little, you give a little and you both walk away thinking you screwed the other guy. But you don't walk in and buy at the asking price.

[JuniperLea]

54. The part before the big "but" is pretty much what happened here...

I do the same kind of haggling in Tiajuana and even at Olvera Street. Unless you are an expert mind reader and saw exactly what was in Obama's head... :shrug:

[mitchtv]

41. not quite

you make an offer, take counter offers before you roll over (even if you have too)

[mitchtv]

39. exactly

good bargaining skills are paramount. YOU DON'T SHOW ALL YOUR CARDS

[jtown1123]

42. Bingo.

[Whisp]

53. and you are privy to this information in what way?

please....

[Kweli4Real]

63. And you are assuming ...

that this was done.

But that said ... Anyone who has actually done high level negotiations knows that it is best to go into the negotiations knowing (strongly suspecting) what you have no shot at getting. It is then shrewd negotiating to walk in the door, sit down and discard that point that very point. It deflates the room abd makes the other side feel an immediate victory and more willing to negotiate (read: give you) what you really want.

I this case (and I pause because will really don't know anything about the negotiations) we assume that PRESIDENT Obama immediately discarded opposition to extending tax cuts for the wealthy, something that was a deal breaker for the republicans (and therefore, for america); this set the stage for all the other things PRESIDENT Obama got out of the deal.

Understand?

[walldude]

10. Well maybe they are mad at a system that allows one person

ONE FUCKING PERSON to hold peoples well being hostage.

Oh and comparing health care for sick 9/11 responders to making a grocery list or deciding to buy a cat o a dog? Really? When you debate groceries do you drop your budget by half?

[harun]

12. What deal did B*sh make to go to war in Iraq?

Yah, that's what I thought. Go away now.

[JuniperLea]

18. That's nonsense...

Has nothing to do with this discussion. I think the "go away" should be on the other foot... in fact, I'm going to save myself some grief right now! Thanks for showing yourself...

[Lisa D]

22. Why does the OP have to go away?

Isn't this a discussion board?

[treestar]

35. The surrounding circumstances have plenty to do with it

Bush had 911. 911 this, 911 that. I'm sick of people pretending that was not so.

[maxrandb]

47. If you recall

the resolution was approved in the Senate by something like 98-1.

BTW - Bush and the Republicans paid a rather large political price for that move. They were relegated to the margins of power for the past 4 years, as Democrats swept into power in 2006 and 2008.

Here are just some of the things the President and Democrats achieved...and "Yes", some of it required "compromise", but a lot of that compromise was made with members of the Democratic Party.

Stimulus, inlcuding the largest middle-class tax-cut in history, massive investment in alternative energy, massive inverstment in education and extended unemployment benefits

Health Care reform

Wall Street Reform

Equal Pay reform for woman

Two outstanding/sane Supreme Court Justices

DADT Repeal

START Treaty

The list of achievement is massive, and we are a better nation for it. Keep in mind that this was done in 2 years with an economy that was in the tank. Will he have to work more with Republicans? Possibly, but the Republicans are in a box as well. They can't simply sit on the sidelines throwing bombs anymore, and if they do, their stay in power will be relatively short.

[harun]

56. Public Option was just too important. Obama should have gave them

massive Tort Reform in exchange for a solid Public Option. That would have been Health Care Reform. Instead we got Health Insurance Reform.

We'll see what happens next year.

[Kweli4Real]

64. And you know this, because ...

Tort reform was on the republican's wishlist, but no where near the top ... and definitely below rejection of any form public option.

[harun]

70. What do you think it would have taken?

[Kweli4Real]

74. There was absolutely nothing ...

that the republicans would have traded to give the public option.

[Earth_First]

13. I've remained fairly optimistic towards negotiating deals...

However, the 9/11 bill just should not have been a legislative act that required any deal brokering.

I just let my emotions get in the way...

[JuniperLea]

21. You're right...

It should have never been on the table. But what to do when the Pubbies put it there other than negotiate?

[maxrandb]

37. But we don't know what the "deal" was

It could have been anything from; "Look, either you back-off, or I'm going to let the NYC Firefighters and Police have 10 minutes with you alone in the room", to "OK, you want to keep that loophole in there, or you'll deny health-care to these heroes...fine, just make sure you can sell that to the folks in your district".

And no, I am not comparing compromising on my grocery list to the health of the 9/11 first responders. I am simply offering that as ONE of many examples of where we make compromises in life. Some are big compromises, like saying; "OK, I know Germany did horific things during this war, but they know how to keep the trains running", and some are small like; "OK, I'll take the garbage out this time so you can make dinner".

It is still a compromise.

Like the one poster said; "People who demand all or nothing deals, get NOTHING!"

[Stevenmarc]

16. I love a deal

what I don't like is starting the negotiation from a position of weakness. The way satisfactory negotiation works is to ask for too much, then they return with too little, somewhere along the line you meet in the middle which is actually where you wanted to be in the first place. The problem I have with the Democratic party is they start by asking for exactly what they want and it just goes down from there.

[WiffenPoof]

19. There Is Nothing....

...wrong about "making deals." Of course, you should never make a deal that compromises your principles.

-PLA

[Uncle Joe]

20. There is no pat answer, making a deal can be good, bad or neutral.

Every person must decide by their own conscious as to which category a particular deal falls under.

Some may consider recently passed health care reform to be historic and good, others may consider it to be historic and a major step backward.

Thanks for the thread, maxrandb.

[Johonny]

49. I agree

Each man has a price. I don't think it's hard to understand why some people get mad when we intentionally do something bad or stupid to get something good. It seems like we should be able to do good things without the bad or stupid stuff. I think each person has a different line they won't cross, some will never move at all. There's no pat answer. That said America did a lot of compromising on principal prior to the civil war. Each time the politicians patted themselves on the back, but eventually the dam broke. We can compromise only so long, eventually things like health care, global warming, the disparity for the rich and poor won't be able to kicked down the road with compromise. Eventually America will really have to solve these problems and will, one way or another.

[randr]

24. An observation on the republikan game plan

As I watch mitch and cohorts bend over backward to dismiss any attempt by Obama and friends to advance bills long awaited, I am sure of one thing. The repugs are afraid of the teabaggers and will do nothing to incite their ire. Moderates in their party are dinosaurs and are moving as fast as possible to the right in all matters. This situation has paralyzed them and they are incapable of governing.
Governing requires reaching consensus. That is what it is about. We elect the leaders we think will advance our cause as they conduct civil discourse.
When a party is taken over by and bends to the will of a loud and possibly violent faction they have lost the ability to govern.
When all the smoke clears and the public has a chance to the the newly elected fringe try to act responsibly I feel the nation will respond and move in the opposite direction from this recent election.
All that is needed is for responsible leaders to emerge on the left and continue to present ideas that will resolve the important issues of our day.

[maxrandb]

48. Thanks for the post randr

The only way the "tea-baggers" get all that they what would be at the point of a gun. I pray our country never comes to that.

The Repubs are in a bit of a bind. They simply cannot simply stand on the sidelines anymore throwing hand grenades. Already, the "purist" on the "right" are talking about primarying the Repub who voted for repeal of DADT and START. Hell, even Mitch McConnell may be in trouble. Remember, he backed the party candidate over Rand Paul.

Tea-baggers who think that they are going to win every political fight, are really no different than hard-line Democrats who thought "they" were going to win every political fight. It just doesn't work that way, but WE CAN STILL PUT FORWARD POLICIES THAT HELP MEET OUR FOUNDERS DESIRE TO "FORM A MORE PERFECT UNION".

[Kweli4Real]

67. Very well stated ... n/t

[gratuitous]

25. Indeed, governing is deal-making

But when you continually give away the store, empty the shelves and barter away the future, there's such a thing as a bad deal. When too much is given in exchange for something desireable, it encourages more bad dealing. If you bought a stick pen from a vendor for $1.49 instead of $0.59, you're going to be real popular with that office supply person. And while having pens is important for your office, the price is too high and you will find yourself out of business if you keep making bad deals. Your vendor will make a great effort to keep you in line and prevent you from shopping around, but it's not because he thinks you're a swell guy.

Right now, the Democratic majority is looking like a flock of pigeons, and the Republicans are more than eager to take their turns plucking. "Okay, you got DADT, which is a loser issue for us anymore. We made sure we took care of our wealthy friends, humiliated the long-term unemployed, and pushed you around for a couple of weeks. What do you want next? Wait; before you answer: Put on this clown nose and let me parade you around for a few days. Okay, you want simple compensation for the 9/11 first responders? Sure! Everybody likes them, and God knows we've exploited their heroism for our own political gain for nearly 10 years. We're going to need some goodies for our military contractor pals, who have been kind of nervous lately, and we don't like it when they're nervous. Oh, and we're going to need you to put on this frilly pink dress and sing a couple of verses of 'Tomorrow' standing on that table. You want that money for the first responders don't you? How bad?"

[JuniperLea]

31. Nice goal post moving you got going there...

:eyes:

[gratuitous]

44. So what have you seen exchanged for stuff that should have/could have been pro forma?

Because the next target getting lined up is social security benefits; what do you think the Democrat leadership will get for trading that away? New name plates on the desks?

[cottonseed]

58. You mention shelves, stick pens, clown noses, and plucking pigeons in your post...

but in the end, you didn't really deal with anything in reality. You know, the real tangible things that were discussed and the deals that were made that really went into striking these deals? It's real actual stuff that's going on. Not gut, not principal, not pink dresses.

[treestar]

32. Highly recommended.

Some people need to watch the musical "1776." A highly entertaining view of just what has to go on in a legislative chamber.

[girl gone mad]

36. In the words of Robert F. Kennedy:

The second danger is that of expediency; of those who say that hopes and beliefs must bend before immediate necessities. Of course if we must act effectively we must deal with the world as it is. We must get things done.

But if there was one thing that President Kennedy stood for that touched the most profound feeling of young people across the world, it was the belief that idealism, high aspiration and deep convictions are not incompatible with the most practical and efficient of programs -- that there is no basic inconsistency between ideals and realistic possibilities -- no separation between the deepest desires of heart and of mind and the rational application of human effort to human problems.

It is not realistic to solve problems and take action unguided by ultimate moral aims and values, although we all know some who claim that it is so. In my judgement, it is thoughtless folly. For it ignores the realities of human faith and of passion and of belief; forces ultimately more powerful than all the calculations of our economists or of our generals. Of course to adhere to standards, to idealism, to vision in the face of immediate dangers takes great courage and takes self-confidence. But we also know that only those who dare to fail greatly, can ever achieve greatly.

It is this new idealism which is also, I believe, the common heritage of a generation which has learned that while efficiency can lead to the camps at Auschwitz, or the streets of Budapest; only the ideals of humanity and love can climb the hills of the Acropolis.

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2010/12/obamas-deal-part-ii.html (Read it all and tell me Obama isn't exactly the type of leader RFK was warning about).

On the campaign trail, the President misled voters into believing that he had courage and high aspirations. Once elected, he promptly sold out our hopes, ideals, values and convictions in the self-service of pragmatic incrementalism. He avoided great failure by avoiding any attempt at great achievement. In these times, that avoidance will spell certain disaster for struggling Americans.

[BlueJac]

40. Good stuff

[Laelth]

43. +1. n/t

-Laelth

[WinkyDink]

59. Obama is a cold-hearted intellectual, as opposed to the empathic kind as RFK.

[Art_from_Ark]

75. That quote is one reason why Bobby Kennedy is one of my favorite politicians

of my lifetime.

We lost a hell of a lot on June 5, 1968.

[Foo Fighter]

79. Excellent post. n/t

[MoonRiver]

46. Making a deal under adverse conditions is one thing,

surrendering before you've fired a shot is another.

[stray cat]

50. It accomplishes something! Most it seems are happier with nothing as long as one shouts angrily

[TheKentuckian]

52. It all depends on the quality of the deal. It is a means to an end, not an end.

[phleshdef]

55. Its phony outrage meant to to be a diversion from any success Obama and Dems achieve.

Its petty. Its immature and its irrelevant.

[WinkyDink]

60. Giving billions to billionaires is a fundamental betrayal of Democratic principles.

[Foo Fighter]

82. "Phony" outrage? Please define the difference between phony outrage and real

outrage.

[damntexdem]

57. Nothing. But caving in on basic principles is what is wrong.

Despite his recent "wins," I am disgusted with Obama.

[rug]

66. As if Lee had a choice.

[Elmore Furth]

68. I agree with the necessity of 'making deals'

This country was founded on the balance of power so that different power centers didn't cause the system to break down and it worked until the Civil War. But even then, it was a reasonable approach

[EFerrari]

69. Giving away your daughter for only one goat -- deal making.

Bad deal making.

[HEyHEY]

72. It's fine, when your side actually comes out of it with something.

[Confusious]

80. Nothing

I just want him to fight a little before making the deal, and not roll over.