Union members, help me out:

[The Philosopher]

I've always been a hardcore union supporter (as everyone in my family is, except for that one sibling whose soul is damned forever in Hell among the Tea Party!). However, there's been one thing that's always caused me to be silent: closed-shops.

How do you answer someone who complains about paying union dues, being "forced" to pay dues, or else lose their job? Superficially, I don't find the practice agreeable. But I realize that the union is weaker without it. Or is it? Is there an alternative that doesn't involve disbanding unions altogether?

I can pretty much defend unions on every other stance, from striking tactics to collective bargaining. But I come up with nothing with being forced to pay dues.

[Brickbat]

1. Closed shops are illegal in the U.S.

What you describe -- being "forced" to pay or else losing a job -- does not happen.

[doc03]

5. Wrong n/t

[Brickbat]

6. You're right, I am wrong.

I posted too quickly.

[msongs]

2. perhaps non-union members should not get union negotiated wages and benefits or on the job safety nt

[marybourg]

3. The idea of a "closed shop" is that once a majority of workers

in a bargaining unit have voted to have a union, that is a democratic vote and all need to abide by it, just as we all have to accept the vote that gives us our political leaders, even if we hate them. That's called democracy. It prevents "free loaders"; those who would reap the benefits of being in a union shop, supported by the dues of others, but not paying them oneself. That's the theory behind it. I personally think it's a valid theory; you're entitled to differ.

[The Philosopher]

11. See, that would make sense to me

I always frame the concept of a union as a mini-democracy, where members vote like taxpayers vote. But I don't think anti-unionists would see it this way. They just don't want to be involved in that "dispicable" union or receive any of its benefits. But there are those who say they have to--they have to do what the others voted on--and therefore it's got to be the most ultimate evil in all of Eternia. They just can't wrap their head around why they're discriminated against just because they don't want to be a part of a union and work at that location.

[proud patriot]

12. +1

[Omaha Steve]

4. Fair share laws

They don't have to join. They do pay a fee to be represented. They are not members so they can't vote on a contract, officers, etc.

[jwirr]

7. I do not have the answer you want but lived in Iowa growing up. The

are a right to work state and I can tell you that if it is not a closed shop the union is weakened to the point that those workers less likely to need benefits run the show. In our area we have food processing plants that have people trying to make a living and then we had people who just wanted something to do to get out of the house and did not care what the wages etc were. They refused to back union all too many times.

[lonestarnot]

8. Why should scabs ever have the privilege of riding on a dues payer's back! Just like the richies

currently picking your pockets? That ok with you too?

[The Philosopher]

10. I've pointed that out

But they'll say that they'll "elect" to forgo the benefits being fought for, like a pay raise or something.

[lonestarnot]

13. And they are really willing to work for $2.00/hr? Woohoo. Let 'em.

[The Philosopher]

14. I'd like to see them try

But I doubt they're thinking that. But they'll say absurd stuff like their wage is fine, they don't need to cause a problem for a raise (like a teacher would, striking).

[lonestarnot]

16. Feel bad for you having to deal with that in a family. I'd have to disembark from them.

[Codeine]

9. Not paying dues

would be like tagging along to lunch at a Michelin Star restaurant with your coworkers every day and never ponying up for your portion of the bill.

[Citizen Worker]

15. A "closed shop" agreement is the extension of democratic action. There are laws in the US that I'm

sure many of us don't like. The Patriot Act comes to mind but just because we don't like something does not give license to break the law. Absent a closed shop agreement means that the democratic vote that brought the Union in is only for those who voted in favor of representation.

[fishwax]

17. aren't closed shops illegal under the Taft-Hartley Act?

Union Shops, which require non-union workers to join the union after a set period of time (at least 30 days) are still legal, though.

[The Philosopher]

18. Yes, I had forgotten that

Although I'd still like to face the issue.

While Closed Shops are illegal, there is an alternative that--in my eyes--seems the same thing as Closed Shops, which are Union Shops. Instead having a contract with the company to hire only those who are union, the new employee has a probationary period before having to join the union and pay dues. And if they elect not to join the union, they still have to pay dues, but only in regards to representation that the union does on behalf of the workers.

People are so anti-union, they don't want any money going to it at all. So it's the idea of having to pay dues when you don't want to be a part of a union that's the problem I'm having trouble answering. To me, it seems like the obvious choice. But I guess those who don't want to pay are the same who believe you have nothing to worry about from abusive authorities because you're not doing anything wrong (right?).

[fishwax]

20. if people are that anti-union, then they simply shouldn't work at a union shop

The process of collective bargaining is the creation of a contract between employers and a body of labor. If someone doesn't want to work under that contract, they don't have to. It would be wrong to allow a company to pay someone less or provide less protection than the contract guarantees and it would be wrong to let someone enjoy the benefits of union membership (higher pay, better working conditions, etc.) without contributing to the union, either as a member or simply by paying dues or a related fee.

[yewberry]

19. My union allows opting out.

Employees are allowed to forgo joining the union if they have an objection. In those cases, they are required to donate the equivalent of dues to a charitable cause.