If living standards for most of us are going to continue to decline, how do we survive?

[LiberalLoner]

Most of the pundits I read predict that living standards for the average worker in the U.S. will continue to decline. Some people I read think our living standards will decline very far, very fast (Kunstler thinks this, for instance.)

If their premise is correct - and I can't predict the future, so I don't know for sure - but IF their premise is correct and we see generally declining standards of living for most of us - how do we survive it? What is the best way to get through it?

I've tried to think about this. I know I will probably not live past another 20 years at the most because my kidneys are dying. But I care about my fellow Americans and I worry about how bad things are now and how bad things might get.

I was thinking, one way to survive declining income is, more people living in one home. Share the costs of rent, and the energy costs. Another way, if a person has a bit of land they could work, and some fertilizer and water, would be to garden to provide part of our food. I know they did that in Cuba and the former USSR and it helped a lot of people.

I think it would be useful to form community ties, too. To have family and friends and close neighbors. To have people you can count on. Pool your abilities and resources.

Are you guys thinking about these things, too? About what happens if this decline is permanent or continues to get worse? About how we could best survive it?

I just feel that maybe a decline would be less painful if we could figure out a survival plan and follow it.

[Wilms]

1. I caught a small bit of a PBS docu that, in part, was addressing this issue.

Pretty much about bartering.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-brancaccio/fixing-the-future-hope-fo_b_785378.html

[Crystal Clarity]

18. Hey, gotta love the PBS program 'NOW'

But are they showing anything we poor folk don't already know?

With the exception of the community oriented banking concept (cool idea btw) I think most of us already understand the importance of buying locally and bartering. Especially bartering...

Heck, In my neck of the woods we've never stopped doing these things. Though it's not as formal and contractualized as on the vid, basically everything we've ever done on our home, was done by friends who owed my SO for helping them in some way... new roofing, better insulation, a new chimney (and repair of the old) installation of new siding, installation of a new water pump, installation of all our new windows, selective woodcutting of about 4 acres of our property, some wood splitting, all of the plumbing, the construction of our entire new breezeway this past summer (loving it btw). Landscaping, fencing... I could go on an on. Oh and mechanical and body work on all of our vehicles through a period of 13+ yrs and counting.

This list is only a fraction of stuff that has been done so far, but my SO is probably STILL ahead of his lazy-a** friends workwise (lol)! And this is only on the guy-side of the equation... I must admit that now that most of our friend's kids have gotten older, we women don't swap child care, housekeeping, and basic home upkeep the way we once did, but we still do some other basic stuff. Eldercare has increasing become a case in point re: barter. We look in on each other's parents, do basic cooking and cleaning, drive them into town for their doctor's appointments or shopping, ect. Plus of course, make giant meals for the guys depending on whose place or home they are working on... Hey, we do our share too!!!

Now who is being defensive? Not me lol! :shrug: No... just kidding about that (mostly). We actually have alot of fun these days. It wasn't always the case, but we've pretty much gotten past that w/time. You gotta do what you've gotta do even if you don't feel like it sometimes x(

[MadHound]

2. There can't be a single, one size fits all type of plan.

Peoples' conditions vary, as do where they live, work, the family situation they already have, etc. Each of us is going to have to figure it out on their own, though there are a few basic guidelines that most can follow, such as getting rid of debt, start saving more, earlier for retirement, etc.

Community ties, living close to family, all of that is a good thing however, and it will help.

One thing I can tell you, both from my experience and that of my Depression era parents. If you have a method of cheap transportation, living out in the country is generally less expensive than living in a city, and you can survive a severe economic downturn far better in the country than you can in the city.

[grasswire]

3. sharing a home and expenses is certainly a start

Across the country there are little units coming together in what is called "Common Security Clubs". The name might sound something like a militia -- haha -- but the intention is nothing like that. I know that some Unitarian churches are facilitating these kind of clubs, where neighbors work together to prepare for economic change.

http://commonsecurityclub.org/

[Demeter]

4. Shut Out the Banks and Corporations

They want to destroy us for profit. Boycott, shun, tell the truth, learn how to do for yourself and to barter with others. Create community, shut out the psychopaths.

[ejpoeta]

5. well how did people survive the depression? probably like that.

families all living together, community i think will be essential.... farming.... it's a scary thought. and the people who are going to be hurt the most will be the ones who have voted for the people who will put us all there. i was watching rachel maddow's show and she showed the list of the republicans priorities and put altogether like she did really showed what we have to look forward to.... they have fought unemployment benefits, talk about ending the program and food stamps..... if they get their way we are all in for a very bad time. it's a scary thought. i have young kids and don't want them to have to struggle..... will they be the first to do worse than their parents?

[dixiegrrrrl]

12. Up until the 50's, in my memory of my family, generations lived under one roof

in this country, and that was also very very common in other countries, might still be.

We in American have this "one house/nuclear family" thing going on which might well be un-sustainable in a few years,
if things continue.
Certainly smaller houses will become much more practical, and even necessary, for a lot of people,
and heating/cooling habits will have to change.

But, my middle-aged kids are used to the current way of doing things, it will be interesting to see how they weather
the changes, and the children of the 80's have got some STEEP learning curves ahead.

Us boomers, we often had grandparents who went thru the Great Depression
( I don't know yet what THIS Depression will be called)
those grandparents often passed along skills to some of us.

Many people have chosen "voluntary simplicity" and they should be able to adjust better than those who "need" to have a lot of stuff in their lives.

For sure, distance and transportation issues are already being impacted, today, now.

Interesting times.

[FirstLight]

6. ...it's called 'Community'

or maybe, tribe.

Personally, I've decided it is more about those in my neighborhood and inner circle of friends, than anything the govt or other entities can do for me or us...

There are actually groups popping up across the country that are focusing on permaculture and sustainable practices.
http://www.communitycollaboration.net/index.htm
http://transitionsc.org/node/108


this is the real wave of the future...we say we don't want to live on the grid? well then we DO it. we say we want our food to be locally grown and pesticide free? we GROW it. We say we want people to care more about their fellow man... WE CREATE IT...

I am actually researching and putting together a community building organization in my own backyard. I have plenty of people in business, building, etc that would join in and be part of it. My mentor and i are making it our goal this year, to set it up and get the people in place...
only this action keeps me from falling into despair about it all, really.

[LiberalLoner]

7. This is some great information! Thank you! n/t

[LiberalLoner]

8. Thank you for your wonderful replies. I am glad others are thinking about this too. n/t

[Bragi]

9. Another good resource

Environmentalist Bill McGibbon has written extensively about this, most recently and thoroughly in his book "Eaarth" published last year.

See http://www.billmckibben.com/index.html

[felix_numinous]

10. Yes, I am thinking about this also

and my health is very challenged also. I am staying in touch with all the coolest people I know (my tribe), am guessing that perhaps someday we will be looking after each other, who knows. I thought about someday pooling money for some land so my peeps can live together.... I know lots of people who don't have much, but are really good company. That is worth everything to me now. :)

[Cleita]

11. This would only be true if everyone is in the same boat,

however, as long as we have multi-billionaires reaping the profits from our labor, then it shows me that there is plenty to go around for everyone. What we have to do is level the playing field. If I were Queen, my first act would be to impose tariffs on all imports from overseas' sweat shops to make them more expensive than they would be if they could be manufactured here. Then I would make low interest loans available so that entrepreneurs could build factories to make those things. I would make those loans even lower in interest if they form cooperatives or employee owned businesses. You would see everyone's standard of living rise with just those two innovations in our system.

[TBF]

13. Why are we thinking about "surviving" and not talking about fighting back? nt

[hayu_lol]

14. Survival is not a problem...

neighbors are edible.

Choicer cuts could come from the banker/stockbroker class.

[TBF]

20. Thanks, that's what I'm talking about. nt

[Quantess]

31. I read that occasionally Russians would commit cannibalism during harsh times.

The thighs and buttocks being the meatiest parts.

[Karenina]

40. Actually, the Russian social infrastructure provided

a MUCH "softer landing" than Americans will experience.

http://fora.tv/2009/02/13/Dmitry_Orlov_Social_Collapse_Best_Practices

[Fumesucker]

15. After losing my home three times in the last two years I have at least a partial answer..

The other day I bought a camper trailer off Craigslist for $1200, it's enough for me and my two small dogs and right now I have it parked on property that belongs to a close relative, if it becomes necessary (which I don't think it will) I can move to an RV park and have space, electric, water, sewer and cable for about $250 per month.

At the moment there are four of us living on the approximately four acres of property in a house, an efficiency apartment over a garage/storage building and my camper.

Here's a picture I just took with my phone..



The camper has a separate bathroom with shower, a bedroom with a double bed and a kitchen/living room with a large fridge (for a camper), stove, oven, microwave, double sink and a considerable amount of storage, all in about 220 square feet. It's big enough to live in but small enough to tow with a half ton pickup or a standard van.

Edited for clarity and punctuation.

[sarcasmo]

28. Looks like you got a good deal for the 1200 you spent. The good thing is no one can foreclose on

you now. Keep an eye on the brakes since you will have it parked for awhile.

[handmade34]

16. living standards are subjective

but we know the talk... I think about it often, something like all the time. I have a few acres and have tried to get people wanting to share the buildings and land and work (gardens and animals)... unfortunately, it is difficult to find the people?

[Tsiyu]

42. Same issue here, handmade34

It's no big deal to me; I have learned over the past ten years to do without most of what my fellow Americans view as "essential." Honestly, I feel most Americans are so spoiled they will not do well when reality hits.

Like you, I have a few acres I own. People THINK they want to "get back to the land" and be pioneers, but when they realize that it's physical labor they will have to do, and that it can't be done in those few minutes when the commercials are on, they bail.

They've got great theories, but don't appear to have the energy or motivation to put any of them into practice.

Fortunately, most of my neighbors grow their own food, have goats, hogs, chickens, gardens and horses to ride. We all look out for each other and we're all used to living on the fringes of modern life.

It would be nice to find some "partners" who understand patience and who have a work ethic, but I have stopped looking and just try to make it on my own with help from friends. When my kids are out of college, I look forward to their help...til then I have me, myself and I.

My hope is that things will get better rather than worse, because i don't believe most Americans can handle tough times.

[northernlights]

17. I have a few acres, most quite arable

and just had a large section rototilled to add to my existing garden space. Next year I hope to be planting 2500-3000 square feet. I've been perusing my seed catalog this week and will be ordering my seed shortly -- heirloom and organic where possible. Drying beans (Vermont cranberry), green beans, summer squash, long-storage winter squash sweet corn and flour corn, as well as tomatoes, carrots, etc. I already have a small orchard with apples, peaches and sour cherries. And tons of raspberries and a small strawberry patch.

I started experimenting with solar cooking and will be buying a 2nd solar cooker this winter. 2 different styles: the one I have is like a crock pot and great for stews and meats, the other will be better for baking bread). I'm also going to start experimenting with drying food and seed saving next summer. Also raising chickens or ducks for eggs. I have a good sized barn that I built 7 years ago, with fenced pasture so could also raise goats if I really wanted to get into it. (Although they are a royal pain. cute but Trouble.)

I'm also getting a book on old methods of food storage (non-canning, non-freezing).

If I'm able to get work right away and do ok once I finish the healthcare program I'm in (this spring) then I'll look into putting in a windmill if I'm still unable to sell my house. And be racing to try to pay off my student loans before the shit seriously hits the fan.

I had wanted to get a small house on much more land, but ended up in too large a house and too few acres for my needs. But I have a finished attic with 2 rooms, storage and a half bath, so could take in a couple people if I met the right ones. I live downstairs in the "wing" off the kitchen, so can put that door back for privacy in my own 2 rooms. There would be shared kitchen, living room and 3/4 bath.

But I'd really rather sell this place and get my small place with more land and privacy....

Everybody around me hunts and fishes, so there should be barter opportunities to feed my dogs if it comes down to it...

[robcon]

19. Living standards decline? Cut the drama.

The vast majority of Americans are doing well compared to the rest of the world, and our living standards are not declining.

[PassingFair]

22. Here in Michigan, our living standards are most certainly declining.

What part of the county do you live in?

Let me guess:

[lonestarnot]

25. Speak for yourself dude, not for me. What's with the CON in your screen name?

[niyad]

21. as a friend and I were discussing last year, we already know how to do this, we are already at the

bottom, and living a life of utmost simplicity. we know how to cook, garden, live sustainably, all those things.

a friend who is a butcher and I were talking about the fact that a lot of people are going to have to learn how to cook and do basic things. they really have no idea of what to do if the prep work isn't already done for them, or they can't just pop something into a microwave.

I had an image many years ago of neighborhood gardens, where, instead of grass, neighbors got together and decided who would plant what, and share. . seems simple enough, doesn't it? and those of us who know how to can, preserve, etc., have to teach others, along with skills like sewing, knitting, etc.

[LiberalLoner]

27. I've thought about that, but I heard that the soil for most lawns isn't good - when

they build new houses, they take all the old soil out, and put rocky stuff in and then an inch or two of rather poor soil on top. It would probably take a whole bunch of good dirt to turn those lawns into good gardens, these days. :(

[cali]

41. Community gardens are everywhere

at least where I live.

[BOG PERSON]

23. let's declare war on china and take their shit

reason #1 - their government sucks

reason #2 - they can afford to lose like a hundred million people

reason #3 - dey took er jerbs

[dembotoz]

24. really a question of where we are now to where we end up

some of us have really seen our standard of living spiral down--how much more is possible, i am not sure. I have cut corners, paid stuff late. Xmas this year will be minimal at best. You can tighten the belt quite a ways before it really starts to hurt.
And i am so much better off than many of my brothers and sister out there.

I was only unemployed for a very short time.
Yes i am owed back wages--company bk.
and yes i probably will not see a good chunk of that.
but i have a paycheck now and health insurance again.

This has truly been a god awful year.
Will take YEARS to recover.

when do we fight???
sooner than i would have thought last year at this time......

[Taitertots]

26. We stop buying trillions of dollars worth in Chinese trinkets

Everyone stops buying fancy cell phones, I-pads, foreign cars....

Pretty much exactly the same as we do now, except no conspicuous consumption.

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

29. it's not going to be that bad. people need to calm down.

For one thing, I was pretty poor as a kid. We lived. I think we were right about at the poverty level, some years above, some years below, depending on how many hours my parents worked. We ate food. We had clothes. We had a place to live. It was fine. It was well below what a lot of Americans had, but it was fine. We didn't feel bad for ourselves. Maybe we should have?

Towards the middle of my teenage years, we entered would most would call the middle class - whatever that means. My dad made more money, so my mom stopped working. We lived basically the same way, except we probably ate better food more often (still never really went out to eat). We had a second car. Cable TV. Big whoop. We didn't really know how to live middle class lives too well, so we wound up just saving most of our money.

Well now I'm out on my own, and me and my wife don't really know what to spend our money on. It was pretty confusing. We wound up just not spending it, and then quit our jobs that we hated for a while.

Not to say there aren't poor people. The way my family lived in the first example, we probably couldn't have handled too much of a decline in income.

But I see a lot of people living beyond their means. I used to work for a process serving company (the job I hated and quit). I got to see the way people live though. There are a lot of people doing their best to get by without much. And they run into trouble. And I feel bad for them and they deserve a lot better.

But the number of people living beyond their means is a lot...I don't care if they get brought down to planet earth. I welcome their arrival.

Maybe it's just a perspective thing. I've never really lived their life, so I don't know what it's like to want it all and think you can have it all. I'm not really judging them for it, I just can't feel bad for them.

I tend to fall in line with Kunstler's way of thinking in this (as the OP mentioned). Things are going to change. A lot of people who feel entitled to the fantasy version of the American Dream are going to have hurt feelings. Too bad. They'll get over it, and if they don't, their children will anyway. And things are just going to go back to normal. And it's actually going to be a pretty positive thing. With the rise of real communities again. Healthy families. Healthy cities. Less suburban sprawl. People are going to have to rejoin society again...of course, those of us who never left will be at an advantage.

[jtuck004]

36. But this may be them losing their homes, their jobs, their health care,

the security for their families. This isn't going to be life as they know it today. Millions are going to have their pensions interrupted, millions more are going to have health insurance problems.

I think it will go beyond hurt feelings, because there is nothing else out there for us except tent cities. On the plus side, the average salary on Wall Street is now $700,000/yr. Plus a little bonus.

Btw, the only way you can have less urban sprawl is by delivering intensive services to a core - police, fire, food, sewer, schools
etc. That takes money in taxes, but you can't get that if a fifth of the people are not working, and of those who are 1 out of 3 makes $20,000/yr.

If no one has money the only people that will be living ok are those that figure out how to have a little property and some friends nearby. (People by themselves or in two's are easily picked off).

[niyad]

30. living standards

I don't know what part of the country you are talking about. apart from the houses that are built on a toxic waste dump (a former gold ore processing plant) the soil here is pretty decent. I have had gardens in a number of neighborhoods here, and in other states, without much in the way of soil amendments (other than things like liquid compost)

even if the economy turned around, I still think we have to look at such things--get away from the whole unsustainable economy of the world.

[taught_me_patience]

32. There will be more war for resources as America desperately tries to hold power

And those wars will drain the treasury of all that is left.

[burrowowl]

33. C'est la lutte finale!

Google the Internationale!

[Skittles]

34. for those of us who never lived beyond our means

it's not as bad

[Bonobo]

35. Sell your house and live with others.

That would be a good start for most people.

You'll have a lot more money than you did before and more people around to love and share the daily work.

[NuttyFluffers]

37. Eat the Rich.

:shrug:

it's an option.

[Le Taz Hot]

38. Several DUers have posted these same things.

Only to watch them go to page two, or get relegated to a sub-forum that only 3 people read. I'm kicking this in the hopes it will get a little more than a passing glance.

Sustainability Movement
Square Foot Gardens
Square Inch Gardens
Neighborhood co-ops
Community Activism

Our ancestors knew how to do it, all we have to do is look back.

[mmonk]

39. Alternative structures within the structure that can alleviate or counter

the destructive tendencies of unfettered capitalism with no rules, citizen empowerment, or safety net.