A Friday Afternoon Challenge on Thursday this week for you art history lovers!

[CTyankee]

This work precipitated a famous controversy. What was the argument about? Who “won”?

[davidinalameda]

1. Piss Christ

NEA v. Helms

NEA won

[CTyankee]

2. This pre-dated Piss Christ...

[RandomThoughts]

3. Depends on if you believe in the reserection doesn't it.

If you believe in mortal life only, it would be a different conclusion then if you believe in an after life.


And if the supernatural exist, the after life is possible.



So tell me this, how would you know who won? You can't be sure. It depends what you think winning is about.


Dread pirate Roberts would tell you there is poison in both glasses, but I think that is despair, and think of immunity to poison, being a comment on after life.

[CTyankee]

6. Faith in the idea of an afterlife was not part of the controversy...

[RandomThoughts]

14. Depends what discussion you are talking about.

[CTyankee]

16. Well, this discussion "could" be conceived as related to your concerns...

however, I don't think it is what you mean...but it could be, certainly. Care to take a guess?

[RandomThoughts]

31. A guess about what?

[CTyankee]

37. You could guess the artist or the period in which the art was created.

MAJOR hint: try the 15th century...

[virgogal]

4. Haven't a clue,but am looking forward to the answer.

[alphafemale]

5. It's one of the few images I've seen where Jesus actually looks...err Jewish. nt

[CTyankee]

7. An interesting comment, alpha...given this controversy...

[alphafemale]

9. I figured it might have something to do with that.

But I am no art historian.

Beyond being able to tell you whether one of my kids' art work that I've saved was done in preschool or 2nd grade, that is. :hi:

[CTyankee]

10. No, you have made a very perceptive assessment, given the argument that

had ensued...as you will see when you learn the story behind this work of art...

[alphafemale]

17. Can I pick your brain for a minute?

Somewhat related question.

I've heard there is some sort of gallery in Bethlehem that has a collection of art images of Madonna and Child from artists all over the world. Every artist tends to depict the Madonna and child in his or her own ethnicity. So their are Korean and Japanese and Italian and Irish and Aborigine and African American and Native American and Nordic etc etc. The person i was talking to even said there was a rendering in hubcaps. (????) And then he said. There is no depiction there of what it actually was. A Jewish mother and child.

He was pulling my leg, right?

[CTyankee]

19. Golly, I am not sure what she's getting at.

For obvious reasons, there is no "Jewish" art of Christ and his mother. So it is kind of moot. Plus, most European depictions of Madonnas and Jesus's used European models! So...

[alphafemale]

21. I guess the point was that Nobody was (is) honest about the etnicity

They weren't told to create a Madonna and Child in their image. Everybody just does that I guess.

I think it is really strange that Jesus is practically never depicted as Jewish in art.

It would be like white guys suddenly portraying Martin Luther King in a movie.

[CTyankee]

23. Of course. But with this image, you have to consider the context.

This image probably comes closer to your "idea" altho within a certain context, which isn't surprising given the century it was created. And herein lies some of the controversy...

[rfranklin]

8. Did Michelangelo have gay sex with Jesus?

I think that was the controversy.

[mike_c]

11. this isn't Michelangelo's crucifix....

Wrong face. I'm presuming the artist was German/Northern European, but I'm drawing a blank and it's too much effort to pull a book down off the shelf, LOL.

[CTyankee]

12. You are right about Michelangelo.

But there were LOTS of crucifix images of Christ in this particular century...

[Brickbat]

13. Does it have to do with the beard?

[CTyankee]

15. No, not per se....

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

18. Is this the Image of Christ on a piece of toast?

Or was that even a controversy?

[CTyankee]

20. No, this is a priceless work of art. I don't know about the toast...don't care...

but that was a fun question!

[davidinalameda]

27. Grilled Cheesus?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grilled_Cheesus

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

30. I was thinking of the woman in South Carolina

Woman sees image of Jesus on cheese toast
By LEE G. HEALY
Spartanburg Herald-Journal
Published: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 at 10:51 a.m.

http://www.blueridgenow.com/article/20090422/news/904229981

[TriMera]

22. Was it the Iconoclasm Controversy? n/t

[CTyankee]

24. I don't know what that is...I'd like to learn about it, tho...can you tell me?

[TriMera]

25. Sure...

It has to do with the adherence to the verse in the bible regarding the worship of graven images. Throughout history, churches have argued as to whether paintings, sculptures, and other works of art that depict "heavenly" figures are acceptable in churches. For example, as late as 1910, Pope Pius X had to be persuaded not to destroy one of Michelangelo's pieces because he thought it was a graven image.

[CTyankee]

34. Wow, destroy a Michelangelo piece? Geez, I didn't know about this...

but what an interesting piece of art history...thank god he didn't prevail...geez...

[Stevenmarc]

29. I was going to go with St Francis Xavier, but I guess not

[apocalypsehow]

26. Don't know much about art history, but happy to learn. Thanks for the OP. Kick, Rec. n/t.

[davidinalameda]

28. are you going to give us the answer

hmm?

[CTyankee]

33. I'm going to give another hint momentarily.......

[CTyankee]

32. Here is THE "competing" work:

[HopeHoops]

35. It was partially funded by the makers of Clearasil and they were pissed that Jesus has zits.

:evilgrin:

[CTyankee]

36. Actually, it's worm holes....that is how old this dude is....

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

38. Is he just too damn brown?

This is the Arabic Jesus, not the European Jesus? Something like that.

[CTyankee]

39. In a way, yes. You have a really good point here!

It is not that this one is brown, it is more the esthetic "look" of Jesus that is the question in the two competing images...this is a big issue going forward from this era, the humanizing of Christ, a large issue in going from Gothic to Renaissance...

[Stevenmarc]

41. You mean au natural Jesus to modest Jesus

[CTyankee]

46. It goes to the "human" as apart from some other standard of godliness in the humanity of Christ...

in that era, it was an emerging issue in art...and it distinguished it.

[blogslut]

40. No crown of thorns

I notice

[CTyankee]

44. Not the issue. The "nature" of the suffering Christ is more the issue...

These many centuries later, it is hard to decipher what that all means and why there was this argument in the first place...but as far as I am concerned, one artist "won" decisively over the other. However, I admit that my bias is one of a person viewing it from the 21st century....

[boston bean]

42. he had not died yet.

[Habibi]

43. Jesus 1 looks like he's been beaten--shiner; swollen eye.

Jesus 2--not so much, though there's the wound from the spear or sword.

[CTyankee]

45. Yes, and that is part of this whole exercise...

[Habibi]

48. Dang it, are you gonna make me stay up all night

waiting for the answer to this mystery??

I almost didn't click on this thread, now I'm fascinated. Damn you. :)

[CTyankee]

51. Oh, god, I'm sorry...please forgive me.

OK, you need another hint.

The controversy was between two GREAT artists of the Early Renaissance...take it from there (remember the subject of the art!).

[Habibi]

61. Okay:

"Filippo, who expected from what Donatello had said to see something better, when he looked at it could not help smiling a little. Donatello, seeing it, prayed him by their friendship to speak his mind truly, upon which Filippo, who was frank enough, replied that he seemed to him to have put on the cross a peasant and not Jesus Christ, who was the man most perfect in everything that ever was born."

http://www.artist-biography.info/artist/donatello/

For Jesus 1, yes?

I'm still googling for Jesus 2, lol!

[CTyankee]

62. Hooray, Habbibi! You've solved it!

Great!

How did you get to Donatello?

Do you agree that Donatello's assessment of Brunelleschi's crucifix was superior? (I don't, but that is due to my modern eyes).

[Habibi]

64. I will have to study the matter further, and if you have cites you

can give me, I would do it gladly. Thank you so much for the interesting puzzle!

(I got to Donatello through Google.)

[CTyankee]

67. If you Google the two artists and crucifixion you'll probably get the story.

I believe it was recounted in Vasari's Lives of the Artists you'll get that story and other interesting stories and comments by Vasari. However, Vasari was an artist himself and so we can assume he had an "agenda." So I would also check out the many more recent art history books focused on the Renaissance...the two artists I've discussed fall into the Early Renaissance, to be more precise in your search. Be prepared for an interesting journey into art history...and enjoy!

[Generic Other]

47. Imagining Christ

"...medieval and Renaissance artists gave tangible form to Christ’s divinity. These artists illustrated Christ as possessing supernatural qualities that demonstrated his power over sickness and death. Unlike Christian saints who left behind bodily relics (such as bones) upon their deaths, Christ’s departure from this earth was marked by his physical absence. For the medieval viewer, an image of Christ’s empty tomb was a sign of his triumph over death.

Many late medieval depictions of Christ focused on his humanity and suffering, encouraging the viewer both to identify with the pain inflicted on his human body, and to actively imitate him. Images that showed the grievous injuries Christ suffered on the cross reflected the increasing interest in establishing a personal connection to the life and suffering of Christ through private contemplation and prayer."

http://www.getty.edu/news/press/center/imagining_christ_032408.html

[CTyankee]

49. Yes, this was a dividing point. What happened here was between two monumental artists of

the Early Renaissance and this is the issue that divides them, actually....

[IcyPeas]

50. you mentioned worm holes...

which means it's not stone .... it is wood. is that a clue?

[CTyankee]

52. Yes, it is wood...

[Tikki]

53. Is he carrying the cross in one and

hanging on it in the other!!!...

Tikki

[CTyankee]

54. No, he is ON the cross. Remember it is the portrayal of his suffering that is

important here, in terms of art...

[CTyankee]

55. Hey, art history MAJORS...this is for YOU too!

[pinboy3niner]

56. I found a reference to this shift

Christus Triumphans (Christ Triumphant) v. Christus Patiens, a Christ suffering in torment on the cross (a view promoted by the Franciscans).

http://books.google.com/books?id=hpIR-72qprkC&lpg=PA21&ots=ueO0eHsnpm&dq=renaissance%20christ%20depictions%20in%20art&pg=PA21

[CTyankee]

57. Hi, Pinboy! Nice to see you here!

Yes, you are absolutely right...this is a key element (to my way of thinking about this argument between two artists).

Thanks for the very interesting link!

[pinboy3niner]

58. I was happy to find that, though I'm still feeling like the dumbest kid in class, lol!

That's as far as I've been able to get on this challenge.

[CTyankee]

59. Try Vasari...

[PufPuf23]

60. I don't know art history but have enjoyed art

One has Jesus with long hair and the other with short hair.

This not the answer.

Please enlighten.

[CTyankee]

63. The answer is above....#61.

It was an argument between two fabulous artists of the Early Renaissance: Brunelleschi and Donatello. Brunellsechi designed and built the famous dome that dominates the Florence skyline:


Donatello of course sculpted his famous David and numerous other monumental works in the city of Florence.

[Divernan]

65. But, but all the mega churches w/ the teevee preachers

know that Christ was blonde, blue-eyed and had a lovely blow-dried hairdo!

Seriously, a really great thread! I'm very impressed with the quality of the discussion.

I've been taking Osher classes in art history for that last two years - never had a chance to take the subject as an undergrad. I take it you've been doing a Friday afternoon challenge regularly - I'm looking forward to more of them.

[CTyankee]

66. Yes, I usually do them on Friday's but sometimes Thursdays if there's a holiday

on Friday. I'll probably do the same thing next week...

glad you enjoyed this...hope you can join the group again...

[pinboy3niner]

68. Yes, this is our weekly torment from CTyankee

It's not always religious art...but it can make you feel like you're doing penance. :)

[CTyankee]

69. Come back next week, probably on Thursday...more torment in store but

it kinda quirky and fun...:hi:

[pinboy3niner]

70. It is ALWAYS quirky and fun...

...even as you torment us mercilessly! I have a sneaky suspicion that you were a dominatrix in a past life. :)

:hi:

[CTyankee]

71. My husband would want to know what you've been smokin'...