The women who are bringing charges against Julian Assange need to be heard.

[gateley]

(Although technically I think it's Sweden, not them, who brought the charges.)

BUT - Assange needs to be considered innocent unless proven guilty.

Last night Rachel, and today a woman on MSNBC were essentially finding him guilty. Rachel asked Michael Moore why he supported somebody who had ALLEGEDLY had non-consensual sex with women? This woman today said "Michael Moore's next films should be Rape: Not a love story."

I'm a woman and for too many years our rights and desires were trashed and ignored. There is NOTHING, in my mind, that "isn't that bad" which many acts of sexual aggression seem to be rated as.

BUT, I feel those who are essentially condemning Assange of being guilty of these charges, are taking away his rights just as womens' rights have been taken away (and continue to be) for so long.

It's wrong to judge or claim innocence until we know all the facts.

I feel better for venting.

[msongs]

1. let's hope if ever get charged with something innocent til proven gulity still applies nt

[smiley]

2. 100% agreement

We may all have our opinions, but we certainly don't know all the facts.

recommend

[flamingdem]

3. WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange's accuser has ties to Cuban dissidents (Supported by the rightwing)

The bizarre saga of WikiLeaks yielded an arrest and yet another unexpected wrinkle on Tuesday: One of the Swedish women who has accused WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange of sex crimes was revealed to be a supporter of Cuban dissidents.

Anna Ardin's links to Cuba were posted on several websites Tuesday after Assange surrendered in London to answer a warrant issued for his arrest by Sweden. He is wanted for questioning after Ardin and another woman accused him of having sex with them without a condom and without their consent.


Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/12/08/1962779/accuser-in-wikileaks-saga-has.html#ixzz18wtIOP2p

[gateley]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean Assange is innocent of the charges, either.

I'm rooting for Assange on this one (because I don't WANT it to be true), but even more than that, I'm rooting for the truth to come out. If he's guilty, he should be punished, if they're guilty of fabricating the stories, then they should be punished.

It just angered me that Rachel and the MSNBC commentator almost assumed that he was guilty.

I was living in NC when a woman brought rape charges against the members of the Duke Lacrosse team. We were in an uproar! Typical white boys (lacrosse, after all!) raping a black woman - it was beyond that, it was rape AND a hate crime!

Except, it never happened. The truth came out after those guys and Duke and been raked over the coals.

I hope this gets resolved soon.

[Hello_Kitty]

11. So? Does that make her un-rape-able or something? eom

[Igel]

15. Doubtfully.

However it does make him unimpeachable, and sort of implies that whatever she gets she deserves.

RWer? Off with her head. Or, barring that, the least we can do is make sure she's used sexually in ways illegal in her country of residence.

It's been said that the first thing you do is dehumanize your enemy. This is usually considered a bad thing. But ideology and partisanship can justify anything--even the GULag, if you work hard enough at it.

[flamingdem]

43. Excuse ME for adding a piece of information, not an opinion JEEZ nt

[flamingdem]

45. Dear clueless,

This is a democratic board so mentioning the right wing element is in this context so it is surprising you would jump on that unless that is your proclivity.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

49. 230 million women in Europe and...

an opponent of Washington has a random encounter with a questionable character with ties to US funded right-wing Cuban groups who subsequently makes an allegation against the said critic of Washington?

[socialist_n_TN]

30. MAN, I have REALLY tried to avoid getting into this............

because I ALSO want Assange to be proven innocent, but I've also got a wife and two daughters that I don't want to have to be put on trial themselves just because they've been raped.

HOWEVER, given the US government's past history of dirty tricks when it comes to dissenters, I can't help but be REALLY suspicious of these charges. I'm sorry, my natural inclination is to believe the woman's side in these matters, but this situation stinks to high Heaven, from the timing of the charges to all the stuff (like this) that's come out about the accusers. It just LOOKS like a setup. As an added benefit to the capitalist power structure, it's splintering the left and taking attention away from what should be the primary consideration, which is the leaks themselves.
Remember they are MASTERS at dividing the masses.

But even if I'm wrong and Assange is guilty, it still doesn't take away from the fact that WikiLeaks is something that NEEDS to be continued by SOMEBODY.

[Hello_Kitty]

54. I think it's possible the accusations are valid AND it's a witch hunt against Assange.

The great thing about liberals is that we do nuance and can hold more than one thought at the same time.

[socialist_n_TN]

65. Yes, it's possible and I know you'll disagree, but............

I JUst don't think it's probable. The proponderence of the evidence THAT WE KNOW ABOUT, tells me it's a setup.

[bluestate10]

4. Assange could end this by an interview with Swedish authorities.

With his lawyer or team of lawyers present.

[Celebration]

10. The question is

where the interview would take place. He doesn't want to go back to Sweden. He has offered to do it in the UK, I thought.

[LadyHawkAZ]

21. He gave them one on Aug. 31.

It hasn't ended.

[mike_c]

24. he already did that-- remember, it was the Swedish prosecutor...

...who dismissed the charges as baseless and gave Assange permission to leave Sweden. The "arrest warrant," without actual charges, was revived later by a conservative Swedish politician. And note that while ALLEGATIONS have been made and are being used in the press to describe this whole process and create memes of guilt, there are in fact no actual charges at present. Since the allegations were dismissed last summer, the prosecutor has declined to provide any charges or evidence against Mr. Assange, who has the strange distinction of being held in a very public manner without charge, in a country where the rule of law is supposed to provide protections against that sort of thing, but that few people are bringing that up, especially in the press, which has been quick to jump on the "rape" and "sexual assault" memes while lacking any real charges or even any evidence for real crimes having been committed.

[smiley]

26. you hit the nail on the head

[bluestate10]

29. If that is indeed the case.

Wouldn't Assange prove a mighty point by flying to Sweden and availing himself to authorities. If one right wing politician is the only driving force, truth and Assange's innocence should carry the day. Now, exactly why won't Assange take that plum of a political and ethical opportunity? Exactly what is he afraid of? I have read the blabber about Assange being rail roaded by the United States and the USA's complicit Swedish lackeys, but now, just once, give me a reason that is believable.

[socialist_n_TN]

31. Do you know ANY of the history of American........

intelligence involving dirty tricks against people that they have targeted? Salvatore Allende ring a bell? Fidel Castro? Hugo Chavez? Fred Hampton and, for that matter, the ENTIRE Black Panther Party? Martin Luther King Jr? You can believe whoever you want in this situation, but don't DOUBT that the PTB in the USA WILL use ANYTHING and EVERYTHING they can get their hands on to discredit ANYBODY they want to discredit. And, right now, that includes Assange.

[bluestate10]

40. You take the excesses of zealots.

And integrate them over not only the majority of the citizens of the USA, but all of the citizens of Sweden. Do you understand what damage Sweden would do to itself by railroading an innocent Julian Assange? I have Swedish friends and I have yet to see one that would allow damage to their international image by allowing their government to commit a crime for the USA, not one. And they are far more connected to and aware of the goings on in their government that so called enlightened progressives that are running incessant worship threads for Julian Assange, several time per day.

[socialist_n_TN]

48. You have MUCH more faith in government ...........

to do the right thing than I do. And all the Swedish government would have to do is honor an extridition request and they could wash their hands of it. If Assange was killed in American custody or just "disappeared", the Swedish government could say, in all honesty, we didn't have anything to do with it.

And the "zealots" whose actions I mentioned WERE government functionaries and quite high level ones at that.

BTW, no worship for Assange here. He's obviously a flawed human being. So am I. What I DO worship though is the principle of transparancy in government. So they CAN'T spy on MLK, or kill the next Fred Hampton, or lie us into war about fake WMDs, or overthrow a popularly elected president in another country just because we disagree with his politics or any of another hundreds of things that we actually KNOW about. At least without SOME accountability. If all this is what we KNOW about, how much do we NOT know? So yeah, flawed or not, I appreciate Assange and what his group is doing and I certainly hope that the WORK itself continues on, no matter what happens to Assange.

[bluestate10]

50. And you too little in the human spirit. nt

[socialist_n_TN]

53. Oh, I have a LOT of faith in the human spirit............

I'm a socialist after all. You don't believe in what I believe in without believing in the human spirit. I just don't believe that the PTB believe in the human spirit. They believe in money and control over the working class and they will do ANYTHING to keep ALL the money and ALL the control. And that includes smearing ANYBODY that threatens that control and probably even killing anybody that threatens that control.

If I didn't believe in the human spirit, I would have bought into the soul numbing capitalist bullshit LONG ago.

[sendero]

62. You ignore the clear history we KNOW about...

.. (there is DOUBTLESS a lot we DON'T KNOW) to make some kind of undecipherable point about the sanctity of Sweden.

Ever consider that the Swedes might have as naive a view of what their government is capable of as Americans are? And that under pressure from a country like the US they might fold?

Ever wonder how the incredible coincidences just keep coming - a person who is a problem for TPTB is suddenly accused of a crime that BY DEFINITION can have NO EVIDENCE other than the word of two quite questionable people just at the EXACT RIGHT TIME.

If this doesn't make you skeptical then nothing will, you will believe anything.

[LadyHawkAZ]

35. "WMDs" ring a bell?

Or if that's too extreme an example, how about Ellsberg's psychiatric files?

[bluestate10]

42. You use the actions of two moral hazard presidents,

to launch a weak assed attempt to smear a largely honorable USA population. Explain to me why Sweden would help our government commit a crime by railroading Assange? Assange stands accused of sexual misdeeds against unwilling women. If Assange is innocent and knows that he is innocent, why isn't he flying to Sweden with a plane full of lawyers to have his day defending himself againt scurrilous charges? Certainly, Michael Moore and too many DU posters would be willing to sacrifice to raise defense funds for Assange.

[LadyHawkAZ]

52. Those two presidents did that on their own.

Why should this one be any different? The largely honorable if often ignorant USA population is not in charge. The Obama administration is in charge- the folks calling him a spy, a terrorist, and accusing him of attacking America.

What does Sweden stand to gain by railroading Assange? I can tell you one item right on the surface- Sweden is under heavy international fire for its horrifying rape statistics and incredibly poor treatment of rape complaints. This gives them something they can point to that says, Look At Us, We're Toughening Up On Rape, with plenty of press and without actually having to put in a lot of work. Sweden has gained a certain reputation as a champion of women's rights, especially since the (now failing) Kvinnofrid prostitution law was passed in 1999. They are extremely proud of that reputation, and its taken a heavy hit the last couple of years over the skyrocketing rape numbers and low prosecution efforts. As to why they would help the U.S. out- why not? Tony Blair did, on a much bigger crime. If you're asking what kind of incentives they might be asking for/offered by the U.S., I'm not privy to that kind of information. But I know of a guy that might be, and he has a really cool website called Wikileaks.

Now perhaps you can come up with a convincing explanation for me of why, if they aren't assisting the U.S., they are pushing so hard for extradition of a man who is charged with NOTHING, seeking an interview that they've already gotten on an issue that was already dropped? With Sweden's highly unusual behavior in this case Assange has every right to be suspicious of their intentions.

[Sirveri]

60. They need to charge him or STFU.

Seeing as how he's an Australian and not Swedish he's under zero obligation to fulfill any REQUEST they make. For the record I would do the same in this country, and I would have that right under the fifth amendment. Furthermore in a court of law in this country any comments made to the police can only be used against you, not for your benefit. So it's stupid from a legal standpoint to make any statement to the police. If he made a statement that he saved a bunch of kittens from burning in a fire they could potentially charge him with arson with enough twisting of his own words and the mere hunch of the investigator.

[druidity33]

28. He's been there and done that.

He has offered to submit to questioning in the UK too, but didn't want to have to travel back to Sweden for a second round.

This is a "he said, she said" situation, no matter how you want to look at it.

:shrug:

[treestar]

5. If that applies in Sweden

No one here knows a thing about that. No one knows the laws or their system.

Presumably they have a modern system with the basic rights civilized countries give to an accused.

We do not know if he is guilty or not under Swedish law. It's an unknown. What goes on here on DU is an assumption of innocence based on political preference. They don't want their hero to be guilty of this, so it must be a set up. That attitude would likely continue even after the entire process is over, IF he is found guilty.

If he is found not guilty, the concept that it is a set up will likely not be given up, either, though that should be logical.

[sendero]

61. If "the rule of law" existed in Sweden..

... it would be impossible for there to be an "arrest warrant" without "charges".

What part of "this is bullshit" do you not understand?

[treestar]

68. Are you some expert on Swedish law?

Obviously not. You have no grounds on which to conclude "this is BS" other than your desire that St. Julian have done nothing wrong.

[sendero]

69. On off on off..

... apparently SOMEONE in Sweden can tell bullshit from reality.

[TheKentuckian]

6. Of course they should be heard, I just don't buy what has come down the pipe so far

[jimlup]

7. Someone absolutely dear to me was on the other side of the "Rape" issue

I have come to learn that it isn't nearly as clear cut as many women want to believe. "He said/She said" is more common than we would like to believe and what "She said" is often a grand exaggeration. The person I love was exonerated by a lie detector test but the cost of being exonerated was far more than the woman who filed the false charges even had a clue of.

[Celebration]

8. Innocent until proven guilty

Very simple really.

I thought they hadn't charged him yet. Funny-- I thought they just wanted him for questioning in Sweden so he could be extradited to the USA from there..........because a prosecutor had previously said that there was nothing to prosecute.

If it is really a broken condom and hurt feelings, well, I am sorry but that's not enough even for the questioning.

I am REALLY, though not getting "it is wrong to claim innocence". NO! It is right to assume innocence in ALL cases, until proven guilty.

[Hello_Kitty]

9. Did we watch the same Rachel last night?

Treating rape accusations seriously and extending the same benefit of the doubt to accusers as to the accused is not the same as "condemning Assange of being guilty of these charges". And when Rachel asked Moore why he was supporting Assange despite the accusations it was clear to me she was asking an expository question as a journalist.

[gateley]

12. Then you probably heard her more accurately than I. I'm still over-sensitive

to how we in NC (I was living there at the time) jumped on the Guilty! bandwagon when a woman accused members of the Duke lacrosse team of rape. They, and Duke suffered a lot for that, and so few of us were willing to even consider that they were telling the truth. :shrug:

[Hello_Kitty]

16. I don't think you're over-sensitive. I think everyone needs to chill on this.

I'm being accused of being a castrating feminazi who thinks all men are rapists because I think people should stop jumping to conclusions about Assange's accusers without having all the facts. They are being viciously smeared all over the place for no good reason.

Assange is innocent until proven guilty. Same goes for Assange's accusers.

[hlthe2b]

13. One woman has refused to talk further with authorities & has gone

to the ME, where she works with a NGO, according to recent reports. So, that presumed fact gives me great pause....

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/assange-accuser-stops-cooperating-police/

[rhett o rick]

14. I agree that women's rights have long been ignored. But we must be careful that the Swedish

government isnt making a mockery of women's rights. If the government is manipulating these women, that should be a crime in itself.

[gateley]

17. Totally agree. nt

[texshelters]

18. Yea, this is a no brainer

listen to the accusers (and find out what kind of coercion they are under in Sweden) and defend the rights of the accused. Isn't that what the Constitution says? And Assange has the right to face the accusers.

Why the Swedes don't question him in London is my question. If I was the lawyer for Assange, I would ask for a pre-trial hearing in London, on camera for all to see. Then we can see if there is merit to this. That is unless he is guilty, then I would hold out as long as possible.

I am suspicious of the accusations, but of course they need to be heard openly.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[Cleita]

19. He needs his day in court to face his accusers and to

clear up what really happened. I think the Swedish authorities are using this for political reasons.

[gateley]

20. I actually think the US brought pressure on Sweden, but the women do deserve

to tell their side, as does Assange.

[Bonobo]

22. "(Although technically I think it's Sweden, not them, who brought the charges.)"

Wow, So you think that 'minor' difference is so technical and so trivial that it belongs in parantheses while you trumpet a lie in your 'headline'??

[gateley]

23. No - I just wanted to be as accurate as possible. is that okay with you? nt

[Bonobo]

27. But your INNACURACY was what you trumpeted in your OP subject title!

Do you seriously NOT see that?

The women specifically did NOT ask to have Assange charged with anything but you said they did.

Your OP title is a complete falsehood.

[LadyHawkAZ]

32. They did not ask that he be charged *at first*.

After Sweden dropped the charges, their lawyer, presumably representing their wishes, requested that the charges be refiled.

[Bonobo]

34. Interested in a new bridge? It's hardly been used at all! nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

47. ?

Everything I said is on record. What part should I not be believing?

[gateley]

37. I TRUMPETED? Jesus, what the fuck are you accusing me of? You're saying

my OP title is a complete falsehood - are you accusing me of doing that intentionally?

[Bonobo]

38. I never sait it was intentional, but who knows?

You seem to have overlooked an enormously important fact.

As to why, I do not know.

But it is a disservice to the issue and to Assange to spread info that is essentially false.

[gateley]

41. Oh for the love of God. If I overlooked a fact I overlooked it and tried to

point out that I was unclear.

And my main point of the post is that I feel that Assange is, by many people, assumed to be guilty and I feel that's WRONG.

You know, you're the only one who seems to be jumping down my throat about and insinuating shit "as to why, I do not know" And I know it wasn't intentional so honestly, you're being so unfair to ME about this I don't give a fuck what YOU know or think you know.

And I'm assuming you don't give a shit, but I'm putting you on ignore. With 'friends' like you... See ya.

[LongIslandGuy]

25. I agree with that!

Attacking his accusers seems creepy and misogynistic

[lunatica]

33. I would like very much to hear what they have to say

But evidently there's a transcript of their statements which I've heard read on the radio. It's not very convincing of rape but I would like to see it go to trial if the facts warrant it.

But wikileaks is still doing the right thing.

[snagglepuss]

36. Are you aware Sweden doesn't have jury trials? The fact that it doesn't is

one reason that people including Assange are concerned about whether he'd get a fair trial free from political interference.

[gateley]

39. No I wasn't aware, so let me just get my point across another way -- I'm tired

of people on both sides assuming that Assange is guilty or that the womens' allegations are a set up. I just think we do all of them an injustice by assuming one way or the other.

[snagglepuss]

44. If this was just some Joe Blow avoiding a trial I'd share your concern

however this is not a regular situation. Sweden is very compliant to the US and Assange could be hustled off to the US. Why anyone of the Left wants to ignore that real possibility is disturbing and baffling.

[gateley]

46. I am not fucking ignoring it! As a matter of fact I posted upthread that I thought

Sweden re-energized this due to US pressure.

Sometimes DU just frustrates the fuck out of me.

[PufPuf23]

51. If you are a woman that has been raped, you get a rape kit

and go to the police the next morning and do not continue a positive relationship with the perp before realizing the crime.

[TorchTheWitch]

55. who said he's guilty?

I haven't seen a single person here that claimed he's guilty. I haven't seen anything like that in the press either. What I HAVE seen both all over DU and all over the press is claims that the women are lying and that he's innocent.

And you're right that nobody should be claiming he's either innocent or guilty and not because of presumption of innocence in a court of law. It's fucking common sense. If you weren't there to witness what happened you have no idea WHAT happened and are in no position to determine whether or not he's guilty particularly when there is no strong evidence to lean in one direction or the other. And by strong evidence I mean physical evidence or reliable testimony of someone that witnessed what happened. We all know that he admits to having had been with the women and that's ALL we know. The rest is just he said/she said, and that's for a court of law to try to sort out.

I don't see that you have had any problem at all with the two women being called liars and even CIA agents, etc. Why is that? What about the rights of two women who may very well be victims and what smearing them does not only to them if they are being truthful in this instance but to every single woman who has suffered rape and every single woman who may suffer it in the future? Condemning an alleged victim when you have no way of knowing whether or not they are is not only horribly damaging to a victim but to any woman that may become one in the future. We already know that the statistics on how many women will be raped sometime in their lifetime are staggering and revolting. We also know that the number of women not willing to report their having been raped is also staggering and revolting. Think about what the world wide public smearing of these two alleged rape victims does to an already grotesque rape problem around the world and how damaging it is to the epic problem of encouraging women to report the crime they suffered.

[Confusious]

56. You're correct

But false charges are even worse. So you don't go super critical on my ass, I'm not talking about this case. In general.

[TorchTheWitch]

58. no, false charges are not worse

at best they could be considered equally as devistating, but no, they absolutely are not worse. Frankly, I'm having a difficult time figuring out how they could be considered even equally devistating. Comparing a woman who has been traumatized by rape and then traumatized AGAIN while already traumatized and vulnerable by being accused of lying and actually being the criminal in what happened to her to a man being falsely accused of rape is not the least bit equal.

And how about saving the allegations of me going "super critical on your ass" until such time that such a thing actually occurs? Particularly seeing as slinging unfounded allegations around willy nilly at presumed innocent people is the whole damn POINT to the discussion.

[Confusious]

63. I think they are

Boy who cried wolf. If there's a fable about it, then one should stop and think.

False accusations devastate a man who is falsely accused. Or does that not matter?

[sabrina 1]

57. Does Rachel understand that there is no case against him?

If they have a case, why have they not filed it?

I am so disappointed in Rachel. She usually does her homework better than this.

AND, those women have been heard from, until they tried to scrub their comments from the internet.

I'm surprised, eg, that she is unaware of the women's text messages to each other where they plotted smearing him and 'making making some money' from it.

I am also surprised that she doesn't know more about who they really are.

Or that they said in the beginning of all of this that 'there was no rape, no violence and no fear of violence'.

I hope she is not selling out. So many others have, it would not be all that surprising.

FILE CHARGES, or this is nothing but a smear orchestrated by the CIA as promised.

Shame on Rachel for allowing herself to become a part of it.

[xchrom]

59. +1

[Hello_Kitty]

66. The text messages

Assange's Swedish lawyers have since suggested that Miss W's text messages – which the Guardian has not seen – show that she was thinking of contacting Expressen and that one of her friends told her she should get money for her story. However, police statements by the friend offer a more innocent explanation: they say these text messages were exchanged several days after the women had made their complaint. They followed an inquiry from a foreign newspaper and were meant jokingly, the friend stated to police.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden

The "CIA ties" are a bullshit meme concocted by a guy who's also a Holocaust denier. Keith Olbermann and others should be ashamed of themselves for not doing their homework on that guy.

[sabrina 1]

67. I don't care who THIS guy is, he is supported by many others, and

of course, by the record. Ann Ardin is well known, although not particularly respected as she is quite an extremist, in Europe, and was before any of this happened. She has connections that are well known, so please, don't bother attempting to distract from the fact that this woman has little credility.

The text messages have been seen by Assange's lawyers, and other witnesses and have been verified by the prosecution. More than anything else, this is no doubt why they cannot and probably will not charge him.

As for these latest allegations, why were they not part of the record seen by the first prosecutor?? The one who dismissed the charges for lack of any kind of basis to issue an arrest warrant? I think we know why.

As for the lawyer who stepped into the case after it was dismissed and who is responsible for forcing it to go forward, do you know anything about this guy??

Sweden, if it cares about what has happened to its image around the world, will never try to file those charges. I have a feeling that like the Australian PM who now has egg all over face, Sweden would have dropped these charges long ago, but are being pressured by the U.S. to keep them going while they try to find a crime, or retroactively pass some BS law to try to get him.

This will not end well for this country. The leaks have revealed how little respect this country has for human rights. Cables attacking the European Human Rights Court's most respected judges, have angered people around the world.

I do not know why I am seeing any defense of any of this on a democratic board. What has happened to the Free Press in this country is now clear. I used to be angry at journalists for not reporting the news, but watching what they are trying to do to this award-winning journalist, I guess I understand how scared they are. He had the courage they lack. Fortunately, the world will not tolerate the persecution of Assange or Wilileaks. He was and still is a highly respected author and human rights advocate and is known as such around the world. This country otoh, has no moral authority or credibility left.

And that is what WE should be worried about, not some trumped up charges already promised by the CIA against Wikileaks, a document released by Wilileaks just months before they kept their promise.

[ProudDad]

64. You do realize that what's being leaked to the press

Under prodding by the USAmerikan Empire...

is nothing BUT the Swedish criminal-injustice system's version...

Of what "the women said"...

Right? :shrug: