Nuclear Nightmare

[defendandprotect]

Nuclear Nightmare
by Ralph Nader

The unfolding multiple nuclear reactor catastrophe in Japan is prompting overdue attention to the 104 nuclear plants in the United States—many of them aging, many of them near earthquake faults, some on the west coast exposed to potential tsunamis.

Nuclear power plants boil water to produce steam to turn turbines that generate electricity. Nuclear power’s overly complex fuel cycle begins with uranium mines and ends with deadly radioactive wastes for which there still are no permanent storage facilities to contain them for tens of thousands of years.

Atomic power plants generate 20 percent of the nation’s electricity. Over forty years ago, the industry’s promoter and regulator, the Atomic Energy Commission estimated that a full nuclear meltdown could contaminate an area “the size of Pennsylvania” and cause massive casualties. You, the taxpayers, have heavily subsidized nuclear power research, development, and promotion from day one with tens of billions of dollars.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/03/19-0

[TBF]

1. He's right of course -

but as long as Obama is president - with his ties to Exelon - we are going to be hearing about nuclear energy.

Well isn't this a cozy little group: Obama, Exelon, and their consultant, Obama's main man David Axelrod. A partnership made in heaven for the nuclear giant Exelon, which has given "at least $227,000" to Obama's campaign that eventually got them legislation from the Illinois Senator written with their best interests in mind. If this was a story about Clinton rewriting legislation to benefit one of her biggest campaign contributors, who also happened to be Big Nuke, there would be blaring headlines across the web. That it revolves around nuclear leaks and helping provide cover for Exelon, a big biz corporate contributor for Obama, against the best interest of a community, is not a small issue either. You cannot buy this type of free pass from the traditional media. They have to be willing to be complicit in it, because any way you slice it this is a huge story. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/taylor-marsh/obama-hearts-nuke-giant-e_b_84824.html

[KittyWampus]

132. Obama doesn't have "ties to Exelon". Stop lying.

[defendandprotect]

143. Right ... like Obama didn't have ties to private health care industry and Big Pharma -- !!

Oops! there went MEDICARE FOR ALL --

which only 76+ of the public wanted!!

No ties to Wall Street, either --

tax cuts for elites -- another Oops!



It would be :rofl: except it's so tragic -- !!



Dem Party also has no ties to Koch Bros -- !!

The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

[TheWraith]

141. Fuck that bullshit, and fuck Ralph Nader too.

One: The "Obama has ties to Exelon" line is a pure, total, and utter lie. It is not true, and people should be ashamed of promoting it.

Two: Fuck Ralph Nader. If he hadn't felt the need to stroke his ego, Al Gore would have been President of the United States 2001 to 2009, and we might actually have had a productive energy policy through that time.

Three: Fuck Taylor Marsh and her 100% pure premium propaganda. You might as well cite Orly Taitz as a source for information on the President's birth.

[defendandprotect]

144. When you wake up from your nightmare, you'll find it has nothing to do with Nader -- but ...

everything to do with this --

The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414



And, maybe you also want to tell us that Obama has no ties to Wall Street?

Shame!

[TheWraith]

145. When you can tell me if you think we landed on the moon, I'll take your points seriously. nt

[defendandprotect]

148. You can't acknowledge Obama's ties to Wall St. unless I say we landed on the moon?

Pitiful --

[BrookBrew]

2. To this date not a single person has died in the US from a civilian radiation

event. NOT ONE. So far in Japan not one person has died from exposure to radiation or to my knowledge presented symptoms (which show in HOURS) of radiation positioning.

Strike while the iron is hot, fear is easier than fact.

[defendandprotect]

4. Same claims as the tobacco industry once upon a time -- !!!

In fact, we have been too calm about this industry and allowed them to build

these hazardous plants all over the nation!!

They should all be shut down immediately --

In the nuclear industry, fear is FACT!!




Didn't they just pull workers who got scalded from radiation in water while they

were laying the cables for restoring electricity? Of course they're technically

not dead yet!!! :rofl:



The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

[BrookBrew]

7. This is easy. You could give me one name where "Radiation Exposure"

is listed as COD on their death certificate. However I know you cant do that.

A burn from a beta emitter does not radiation sickness make. See the funny thing about this topic is it is based on science and numbers.

So a person can destroy the emotional fear monger with a simple question.

1) Did the workers get more or less then 250msv , more than 2Sv?
2) Please name one person killed in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF CIVI NUCLEAR POWER in the US. Just on case of lethal exposure? No, I know you cant.

[kristopher]

15. In research and science ethics , Brookbrew, that is known as "data trimming"

It is the act of setting the parameters of what is examined in such a way as to exclude relevant data in order to produce a predetermined outcome.

As someone upthread noted, you are justifying your act of data trimming with the same type of misleading claims regarding cause/effect as did the tobacco industry, climate deniers and every major polluter that has ever tried to lie to the public about the true effects of the poisons they dump on everyone.

The nuclear industry is an industry. They are there to make a profit for corporate stockholders. They lie.

You are repeating their lies.

[BrookBrew]

16. So That mean from the 100+ nuke plants in the US operated over 50 years

not a single death from a criticality event. What did I exclude, you want to count forklift accidents?

So please feel to correct my FACT with your own. Until then, not a single person in the US has died from civilian nuclear power.

EVERY energy generating company is there to generate a profit, come on. try harder.

[kristopher]

23. You trim data by excluding what? If you are really relying on science show us you know it

"That mean from the 100+ nuke plants in the US operated over 50 years ... not a single death from a criticality event. not a single person in the US has died from civilian nuclear power."

These are the "parameters" you have set to define the data you WANT to include in your "analysis" of the "risk" of producing electricity with nuclear reactors.

Do those parameters encompass the entire available data set?

Are those parameters set to exclude relevant data?


Here is an argument similar to the one you've made:

10 members of my family have been driving for more than 20 years each.
There have been some accidents, but no one has died in that time.
The only conclusion possible is that people do not die from auto accidents.

[BrookBrew]

25. Not risk, not complex, not trimmed. Dont like me fine, but you can only

take the data on its face. its kinda like gravity, numbers win. NO ONE, not a single person, in the ENTIRE US has been killed from radiation from a power plant.

EVER. So why not post data that proves me wrong?

Please?

It not complicated, I include civilian power because its what some of the fearmongers are bleeting about.

Do you wish to include hiroshima and nagasaki? Us nuclear weapon testing and development?

What IS YOUR DATA?

[kristopher]

28. Sure.

You have set your parameters to exclude the entire data set involving the human use of nuclear reactors to produce electricity and the entire range of methods used to establish the causal relationship between the use of nuclear reactors and induced mortality.

That is how you are trimming data.
What you are excluding are the nearly 1,000,000 deaths associated with Chernobyl.

Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences
Volume 1181 Issue Chernobyl
Consequences of the Catastrophe for People and the Environment, Pages 31 - 220

Chapter II. Consequences of the Chernobyl Catastrophe for Public Health

Alexey B. Nesterenko a , Vassily B. Nesterenko a ,† and Alexey V. Yablokov b
a
Institute of Radiation Safety (BELRAD), Minsk, Belarus b Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, Russia
Address for correspondence: Alexey V. Yablokov, Russian Academy of Sciences, Leninsky Prospect 33, Office 319, 119071 Moscow,
Russia. Voice: [phone]; fax: [phone]. [e-mail]
†Deceased


ABSTRACT

Problems complicating a full assessment of the effects from Chernobyl included official secrecy and falsification of medical records by the USSR for the first 3.5 years after the catastrophe and the lack of reliable medical statistics in Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia. Official data concerning the thousands of cleanup workers (Chernobyl liquidators) who worked to control the emissions are especially difficult to reconstruct. Using criteria demanded by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the World Health Organization (WHO), and the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation (UNSCEAR) resulted in marked underestimates of the number of fatalities and the extent and degree of sickness among those exposed to radioactive fallout from Chernobyl. Data on exposures were absent or grossly inadequate, while mounting indications of adverse effects became more and more apparent. Using objective information collected by scientists in the affected areas—comparisons of morbidity and mortality in territories characterized by identical physiography, demography, and economy, which differed only in the levels and spectra of radioactive contamination—revealed significant abnormalities associated with irradiation, unrelated to age or sex (e.g., stable chromosomal aberrations), as well as other genetic and nongenetic pathologies.

In all cases when comparing the territories heavily contaminated by Chernobyl's radionuclides with less contaminated areas that are characterized by a similar economy, demography, and environment, there is a marked increase in general morbidity in the former. Increased numbers of sick and weak newborns were found in the heavily contaminated territories in Belarus, Ukraine, and European Russia.

<snip>

This section describes the spectrum and the scale of the nonmalignant diseases that have been found among exposed populations. Adverse effects as a result of Chernobyl irradiation have been found in every group that has been studied. Brain damage has been found in individuals directly exposed—liquidators and those living in the contaminated territories, as well as in their offspring. Premature cataracts; tooth and mouth abnormalities; and blood, lymphatic, heart, lung, gastrointestinal, urologic, bone, and skin diseases afflict and impair people, young and old alike. Endocrine dysfunction, particularly thyroid disease, is far more common than might be expected, with some 1,000 cases of thyroid dysfunction for every case of thyroid cancer, a marked increase after the catastrophe. There are genetic damage and birth defects especially in children of liquidators and in children born in areas with high levels of radioisotope contamination. Immunological abnormalities and increases in viral, bacterial, and parasitic diseases are rife among individuals in the heavily contaminated areas. For more than 20 years, overall morbidity has remained high in those exposed to the irradiation released by Chernobyl. One cannot give credence to the explanation that these numbers are due solely to socioeconomic factors. The negative health consequences of the catastrophe are amply documented in this chapter and concern millions of people.

The most recent forecast by international agencies predicted there would be between 9,000 and 28,000 fatal cancers between 1986 and 2056, obviously underestimating the risk factors and the collective doses. On the basis of I-131 and Cs-137 radioisotope doses to which populations were exposed and a comparison of cancer mortality in the heavily and the less contaminated territories and pre- and post-Chernobyl cancer levels, a more realistic figure is 212,000 to 245,000 deaths in Europe and 19,000 in the rest of the world. High levels of Te-132, Ru-103, Ru-106, and Cs-134 persisted months after the Chernobyl catastrophe and the continuing radiation from Cs-137, Sr-90, Pu, and Am will generate new neoplasms for hundreds of years.

A detailed study reveals that 3.8–4.0% of all deaths in the contaminated territories of Ukraine and Russia from 1990 to 2004 were caused by the Chernobyl catastrophe. The lack of evidence of increased mortality in other affected countries is not proof of the absence of effects from the radioactive fallout. Since 1990, mortality among liquidators has exceeded the mortality rate in corresponding population groups. From 112,000 to 125,000 liquidators died before 2005—that is, some 15% of the 830,000 members of the Chernobyl cleanup teams. The calculations suggest that the Chernobyl catastrophe has already killed several hundred thousand human beings in a population of several hundred million that was unfortunate enough to live in territories affected by the fallout. The number of Chernobyl victims will continue to grow over many future generations.

[BrookBrew]

32. Still no Names of dead americans. Really, not one more ctl -v no content

again please name one person since the invention of nuclear power plants killed in a radiation accident.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

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[StarsInHerHair]

89. ..........no. Instead name ALL military radiation deaths & illnesses, since you've

gone around this board DEMANDING answers



you first.

[BrookBrew]

90. So not one dead person from any Nuclear power incident in the US

thanks, you answered it perfectly with the jig you danced.

[StarsInHerHair]

94. I never bothered to answer your set-up & you've been asking everyone here

you ignored MY QUESTION.


So who really developed your "question"? hmnnn?


oh, yes ANSWER MY QUESTION.



I doubt you even can.

[BrookBrew]

96. So fuck my question and I do your google work for you, sorry nope

I asked first. Name one dead person from a US civilian power plant radiation event. And by the way back when i did homework for dumbshits I took payment up front.

Answer my question and I will happily provide every criticality event globally from all countries that disclose them.

How bout them apples? Or use google to figure it out.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

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[Whisp]

107. I'm sure the Wolf Blitzers would tell us all about that... n/t

[sabrina 1]

135. Dead humans is the issue.

I could be misunderstanding you but you seem to believe that UNTIL Americans die, Nuclear Power is safe. Is that what you're saying?

[defendandprotect]

146. K/R -- Nice point -- as always!!

:)

[DeadEyeDyck]

68. SL-1 in 1961

The SL-1, or Stationary Low-Power Reactor Number One, was a United States Army experimental nuclear power reactor which underwent a steam explosion and meltdown on January 3, 1961, killing its three operators. The direct cause was the improper withdrawal of the central control rod, responsible for absorbing neutrons in the poorly-designed reactor core. The event is the only known fatal reactor accident in the United States.<1><2> The accident released about 80 curies (3.0 TBq) of I-131,<3> which was not considered significant due to its location in a remote desert of Idaho. About 1,100 curies (41 TBq) of fission products were released into the atmosphere.
...
The bodies of all three were buried in lead-lined caskets sealed with concrete and placed in metal vaults with a concrete cover. Some highly radioactive body parts were buried in the Idaho desert as radioactive waste.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

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[tavalon]

111. And now you should understand the concept of trimming

and how we can so easily see the game you're playing. I think at this point, the question would be, why are you playing. 340+ posts since you got here less than a week ago. Why so obsessed? Is this a work at home gig, because if so, they gave you the shit assignment. DUers use a great deal of due diligence and expect your claims to be linked.

[defendandprotect]

147. Interesting -- though sad, indeed. Would have been "BAN THE BOMB" time unless they came up ....

with an allegedly peaceful use for atomic science!!

How much more insane could this be ... we're using nuclear reactors to boil

water to create steam!!!

And doubt that even Japan has shown us the full danger and insanity of this yet --

PLUS the waste -- and the use of our WATER -- one of these reactors is built on

Lake Erie -- a source of drinking water!!




The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

[defendandprotect]

74. You think Japan's Chernobyl is over now? When was "tobacco" ever listed as a cause of death?

There's a difference between right wing propaganda and science --

and if you didn't learn that from the tobacco industry, you never will!!

[BrookBrew]

88. Sorry you could not provide the information

I asked for. at the end of the day the facts will speak for themselves. your pc runs on power generated from coal or nuclear, if coal you can wipe the 40 dead miners blood on your pants.

Mine runs on nuke, so my hands are clean.

Think on that.

[defendandprotect]

122. Sorry -- you're on IGNORE ---

[csziggy]

81. Harry K. Daghlian, Jr. and Louis Slotin

Daghlian was irradiated as a result of a criticality accident that occurred when he accidentally dropped a tungsten carbide brick onto a 6.2 kg delta phase plutonium bomb core.<1> This core, available at the close of World War II and later nicknamed the "Demon core", also resulted in the death of Louis Slotin in a similar accident, and was used in the ABLE detonation, during the Crossroads series of nuclear weapon testing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_K._Daghlian,_Jr.

As part of the Manhattan Project, Slotin performed experiments with uranium and plutonium cores to determine their critical mass values. After World War II, Slotin continued his research at Los Alamos National Laboratory. On May 21, 1946, Slotin accidentally began a fission reaction, which released a burst of hard radiation. He was rushed to a hospital, and died of radiation sickness nine days later on May 30, the second victim of a criticality accident in history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Slotin

FATALITY FROM CRITICAL MASS EXPERIMENTS
Los Alamos, N. Mex., Aug. 21, 1945

During the process of making critical mass studies and measurements, an employee working in the laboratory at night alone (except for a guard seated 12 feet away) was stacking blocks of tamper material around a mass of fissionable material.
<SNIP>
A "blue glow" was observed and the employee proceeded to disassemble the critical material and its tamper. In doing so, he added heavily to the radiation dosage to his hands and arms.

The employee received sufficient radiation dosage to result in injuries from which he died 28 days later.

More at link below

INADVERTENT SUPERCRITICALITY RESULTS IN DEATH
Los Alamos, N. Mex., May 21, 1946

A senior scientist was demonstrating the technique of critical assembly and associated studies and measurements to another scientist. The particular technique employed in the demonstration was to bring a hollow hemisphere of beryllium around a mass of fissionable material which was resting in a similar lower hollow hemisphere.
<SNIP>
The "blue glow" was observed, a heat wave felt, and immediately the top shell was slipped off and everyone left the room. The scientist who was demonstrating the experiment received sufficient dosage to result in injuries from which he died nine days later. The scientist assisting received sufficient radiation dosage to cause serious injuries and some permanent partial disability.

More on both incidents at: http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/atomic/accident/critical.html

Also at the link is information about other criticality events. I had never heard of most of these, though I had heard of the Slotin death.

[tavalon]

110. Did you miss the part buried in the fifth paragraph ?

where they said they were evaluating for internal radiation exposure on those men? So, either they got thirsty and leaned down for a drink or they took their masks off and sniffed the puddle or there's some gamma radiation in the mix.

Yup, I actually know the difference between Alpha, Beta and Gamma radiation.

This is a thousand times worse for the Japanese, but since I live on the ring of fire and live far to near that damn Hanford atrocity, tomorrow, I begin my tenure as a human geiger counter and will be wearing a dosimeter for the foreseeable future. My husband will also be wearing one. The good thing about that is we work opposite shifts and wind never takes a break.

I suspect that within the month, we will be able to end this test, though I will continue because I'm interested in knowing how much radiation I get at work when I assist the xray techs.

[BrookBrew]

126. Maybe you should wear a dosimeter

to work if you are around Xrays or CT scanners. They got a 170msv dose according to the press.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vanlassie]

8. Civilian? WTF does that mean?

[BrookBrew]

9. That means civilian nuclear power, not an accident at LANL in 1944

or a military facility developing nuclear weapons. Even counting military deaths it is FAR less than lightning strike victims.

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

11. so you came here 4 days ago just to defend the Nuclear Industry??

that's just sad.

[BrookBrew]

12. NO what is sad is some people actually believe the horseshit

posted by some of the end is neigh people. I have no pity for the bleeters of crap, they will have to square that up when the time comes.

I know it takes a lot of brain power to use the google to post information. Much more than pissing down my leg and calling me a shill.

Give it a try, one person in the US dead from nuclear power plant? Just one..

[kristopher]

20. This shows how cause and effect are actually determined as opposed to your "show me" demand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiological_method

The science of epidemiology has matured significantly from the times of Hippocrates and John Snow. The techniques for gathering and analyzing epidemiological data vary depending on the type of disease being monitored but each study will have overarching similarities.


Outline of the process of an epidemiological study


Establish that a problem exists
Full epidemiological studies are expensive and laborious undertakings. Before any study is started, a case must be made for the importance of the research.

Confirm the homogeneity of the events
Any conclusions drawn from inhomogeneous cases will be suspicious. All events or occurrences of the disease must be true cases of the disease.


Collect all the events
It is important to collect as much information as possible about each event in order to inspect a large number of possible risk factors. The events may be collected from varied methods of epidemiological study or from censuses or hospital records.
The events can be characterized by Incidence rates and prevalence rates.

Characterize the events as to epidemiological factors
Predisposing factors
Non-environmental factors that increase the likelihood of getting a disease. Genetic history, age, and gender are examples.
Enabling/disabling factors
Factors relating to the environment that either increase or decrease the likelihood of disease. Exercise and good diet are examples of disabling factors. A weakened immune system and poor nutrition are examples of enabling factors.
Precipitation factors
This factor is the most important in that it identifies the source of exposure. It may be a germ, toxin or gene.
Reinforcing factors
These are factors that compound the likelihood of getting a disease. They may include repeated exposure or excessive environmental stresses.


Look for patterns and trends
Here one looks for similarities in the cases which may identify major risk factors for contracting the disease. Epidemic curves may be used to identify such risk factors.

Formulate a hypothesis
If a trend has been observed in the cases, the researcher may postulate as to the nature of the relationship between the potential disease-causing agent and the disease.

Test the hypothesis
Because epidemiological studies can rarely be conducted in a laboratory the results are often polluted by uncontrollable variations in the cases. This often makes the results difficult to interpret. Two methods have evolved to assess the strength of the relationship between the disease causing agent and the disease.
Koch's postulates were the first criteria developed for epidemiological relationships. Because they only work well for highly contagious bacteria and toxins, this method is largely out of favor.
Bradford-Hill Criteria are the current standards for epidemiological relationships. A relationship may fill all, some, or none of the criteria and still be true.

Publish the results

_________________________________________________


Measures

Epidemiologist are famous for their use of rates. Each measure serves to characterize the disease giving valuable information about contagiousness, incubation period, duration, and mortality of the disease.

Measures of occurrence

Incidence measures
Incidence rate, where cases included are defined using a case definition
Hazard rate
Cumulative incidence
Prevalence measures
Point prevalence
Period prevalence

Measures of association
Relative measures
Risk ratio
Rate ratio
Odds ratio
Hazard ratio
Absolute measures
Absolute risk reduction
Attributable risk
Attributable risk in exposed
Percent attributable risk
Levin’s attributable risk


Other measures

Virulence and Infectivity
Mortality rate and Morbidity rate
Case fatality
Sensitivity (tests) and Specificity (tests)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiological_method

[BrookBrew]

22. My computer has ctrl v too.. A quick scan shows no names..

so I take that to mean you have no names of people killed by nuclear power in the US? You know my question..

[Urban Prairie]

34. It may take years if not decades before the effects (if any) of the radiation being emitted

from these damaged reactors and their contents might be tallied.

Just like the gusher in the GOM last year, the potential damage to the ecosystem, as well as the possible harm to human health for all of those who live within the affected regions are often not immediately or soon known. That is unfortunately, to the complete advantage of those who are involved in or support the continued and increased use of types of energy sources, and to the disadvantage of the people whose health has or might eventually be directly or indirectly harmed from them.

[BrookBrew]

36. It takes hours to present symptoms from a 500 - 5sv exposure.

the data on exposure numbers gathered over a decade of us bomb tests are available from NEJM in refined form and loose from the LOC.

This is not unique in history. There is literally reams of data to base normalized exposure on. From hiroshima and nagasaki forward to Nevada testing, then to the Ukraine.

Again the science does not support a mass casualty event now or in slow motion..

Link to radiation levels in tokyo, live.

http://www.alttokyo.com/tokyo-radiation-2/

[Urban Prairie]

47. Until most of the radiation being emitted from the Fukushima complex ceases

or is caused to cease, there is and will still be legitimate reason for "concern", despite what evidence from one or several monitored areas scattered within Japan that are, will, or can be monitored and are linked that allegedly minimizes or appears to minimize it.

[BrookBrew]

49. Concern is quite real. Concern for people is normal

and reasonable. Some of what is making it to the page is not concern but fear mongering or agenda pushing.

[uppityperson]

51. There sure is agenda pushing. eom

[BrookBrew]

52. Holy god look at the radiation in tokyo its OFF THE,...shit its normal..

http://www.alttokyo.com/tokyo-radiation-2/

[uppityperson]

53. Don't worry because no one has died yet

[BrookBrew]

55. Oh my god, 3 people got a

to be dosed with a fraction of a lethal dose standing in a pool of radioactive water under a broken reactor. 3 people, thats like 26997 less than the tsunami killed.

But hey, I should get my KI packets and ask my vet to calculate the dose for my cat. Who will keep me company when the world ends?

[uppityperson]

57. Congratulations! You win the Dichotomous Thinker Award of the Week!

[BrookBrew]

59. Man I should just be really scared and sit around watch cnn

like right after 911.

Hey here are some useful tools for the coming nuclear apocalypse..

Now you can check your food for Radiation... I wonder how many msvs are in a beer..

http://www.geigercounters.com/Inspector.htm

[uppityperson]

62. Exhibition A1000000 of dichotomous thinking

[Urban Prairie]

54. The only "agenda pushing" that I see here is that which criticizes the energy industry

and warns of further potential catastrophes on a possibly/potentially global scale, with historical/current evidence presented of their proven carelessness and corruption in obtaining and using extremely volatile, contaminating, polluting and dangerous energy sources.

[uppityperson]

56. now, now, now, be realistic

There is also "no one has died yet so it isn't that big of a problem" agenda pushing also.

[BrookBrew]

60. Geiger counters on sale here. Check your food and water

be prepared for the nuclear death cloud. Nancy Grace was right..

http://www.geigercounters.com/Inspector.htm

[uppityperson]

61. Don't worry, be happy

Cause when you worry
Your face will frown
And that will bring everybody down
So don't worry, be happy (now).....

[BrookBrew]

58. So far zero deaths and 3 guys in a lake of radioactive water got a 170msv

dose. Not quite the apocalypse. Let me know when the horsemen make an appearance.

[defendandprotect]

76. ... and one or more of the Fukushima reactors contains plutonium .... !!!!

[BrookBrew]

91. OMFG and panic panic let loose the dogs of painc

still not a single dead person there from radiation. Man. time to rework the meme.

[defendandprotect]

119. ... and now PLUTONIUM is good for you -- ?

How about depleted uranium? Like that too?

:rofl:

[BrookBrew]

127. Heavy metals are bad for you, dont eat them.

that includes lead.

[catenary]

50. You might as well argue with the 'end-timers' who know for certain Jebus will be coming back

in 2 months or 6 months or sometime soon...every time it doesn't happen on their schedule they simply kick the date down the calendar a few notches but by god (so to speak) they're dedicated!

[defendandprotect]

77. People concerned about Japan are now "end-timers" ... is that from Frank Luntz ... ??

[catenary]

115. No.

..

[defendandprotect]

75. Show us just one person dead from tobacco -- cigarettes -- !!

[BrookBrew]

93. well given the shitload of federal litigation lexisnexis

should be the promised land for your question. Feel free to look for that single dead person in US power plants from radiation. just one name over 60 years.

pretty hard huh?

[defendandprotect]

117. You don't like federal regulation? But radiation is good for us -- Oh, joy!

[PSPS]

14. We see that a lot around here

When there's a catastrophe, the shills reliably chime in to tell us how peachy things really are.

[kristopher]

26. Yes, he was particulary eager to defend the actions of the MIT students who lied to the public

http://geniusnow.com/2011/03/15/the-strange-case-of-josef-oehmen/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x734833

[BrookBrew]

31. Right, by posting data from an Advocate Philosopher at ND. You never tied MIT to COI

and I was nice enough to post her preaching on youtube on her opinions.

So got that COI data?

[kristopher]

33. Sure do

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x734833

http://geniusnow.com/2011/03/15/the-strange-case-of-josef-oehmen/

[defendandprotect]

118. As I recall it, MIT has been pretty much been overrun by MIC -- and values -- !!

[BrookBrew]

129. All of MIT? Really. When were you last there?(nt)

[tavalon]

114. What's said is that they think a rank amateur can come into a social

system as DU with it's checks and balances and requirements for information to be taken seriously, such as links to relevent sites. This would have worked at Freepland. They needed to send someone who understood how much more highly educated we are here and that our standards for agreeing with your argument require useful links. We all have opinions, much like assholes - we all have them and they serve a useful function.

But if the big boys are sending you talking points, you're going to need to let them know that we require higher standards and easily verifiable link information. They should be able to get that to you by monday.

[defendandprotect]

120. Well, they only sent them one line -- the one note playing over and over --

Looking for a death certificate that says "died of radiation" is like looking

for a death certificate which says "tobacco industry killed this moker!"

But that's the one note they're playing over and again --

I'd advise "ignore" -- after they're sufficiently on the record --

[L0oniX]

138. +10000000000000000 ... OH uhm Elvis has left the building.

[neverforget]

13. 5 are believed to have died and 15 injured from this link

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23935074-fukushima-three-hit-by-radiation-burns.do

--snip--
Five are believed to have died and 15 are injured while others have said they know the radiation will kill them. At first light today officials were alarmed to see steam pouring from reactors 1, 2, 3, and 4. It was the first time that steam has escaped from the No 1 reactor.
--snip--

[BrookBrew]

17. Your headline is misleading. NO ONE DIED FROM Radiation. NOT ONE. I linked the dose

information your forgot..

Japan's nuclear safety agency and the plant operator Tepco said the three workers were exposed to radiation amounting to 170 to 180 millisieverts, lower than the maximum limit of 250 millisieverts set by the health ministry for workers tackling the emergency.

rounded up to 200msv it is still not NEAR a fatal dose or even capable of causing radiation sickness.

[neverforget]

27. Is that how you measure stuff? Since no one has died from radiation it's all good?

If it's so damn safe, how come they have to limit their exposure to the plant? What about the contamination of the soil, water and food chain near the reactors? Does that count? Or is just that no one has died?

[BrookBrew]

29. No that how the Japanese Government measures it. 100 cases

of radiation sickness triggers a national emergency. That has not happened.

For the same reason people cant eat bacon and ice cream every day thats why. Same reason you cant lay in the sun all day for a week straight.

Considering this is not the first time someone has dealt with radiation in Japan or in the US I'm pretty sure once they cold shutdown their reactor they have a plan to clean it up.

The TMI cleanup and cleanups conducted in Nevada are relevant.

But hey what good is history if everyone ignores it.

[neverforget]

43. Can you link some of that history then?

Too cheap to meter.....

[neverforget]

105. crickets on the history links

[uppityperson]

30. Exactly! Don't worry, be HAPPY. No one has died yet so...no problem!

That is exactly what that poster means all over DU.

[uppityperson]

18. What is a "a civilian radiation event"? Seriously, what the fuck? No one has died from a gerbil

radiation even either! Edited to add that I see in another post you mean not from a military thing.

You seriously believe "So far in Japan not one person has died from exposure to radiation or to my knowledge presented symptoms"? And all this time I thought many died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Silly me.

[BrookBrew]

24. That would be a criticality event or similar problem, say TMI

or any number of events that happen during operation. So year, that keeps some person from posting all the nagasaki and hiroshima deaths unfer a nuclear power heading. It also keeps out the guys at LANL who dropped uranium cores and killed themselves.

So to recap, NO ONE IN THE US has died from exposure from radiation coming from a nuclear power plant.

[quabbin]

19. Japan Nuke Disaster

And your point is? Your pro-nuclear stance is based on the inability of anyone here being able to assign a name to a victim of a nuclear accident? That's your argument for continued use of this demonstrably unsafe technology?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

41. "your post is worthless adhom attack."

yeah, but probably true.

[BrookBrew]

45. Once more a hyperlink to a Geiger counter

looks interesting to me.

http://www.alttokyo.com/tokyo-radiation-2/

[Forkboy]

46. Jennifer Connelly looks interesting to me.

But neither that, nor your post here, changes my opinion above.

[grahamhgreen]

63. How much does blog posting pay, and where can you get a job?

[BrookBrew]

65. I retired at 33 last year. Dont really need the money.

however I know ITT is hiring in Applied Science. Cheers.

[grahamhgreen]

I took a couple years off

a few years back - got bored and went back to work (I actually love my job!)

Maybe you could do some hands on over at the nuclear disaster area?

[BrookBrew]

70. I consult

and systems I co designed and hold (share) patents on are in geosync over there now. I have worked lots and am enjoying my family, considering I worked 60 - 70 hour weeks for 8 years.

[JTFrog]

112. Yea, and now spend your time posting on message boards.

:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:



:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:

[datan]

66. i do admire your patience

must be tough arguing against people who don't listen to facts

[madokie]

130. Did you stumble on your way

and wind up here at du? Now go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut

[Arugula Latte]

72. I'm sure that's a great comfort to the millions of Japanese people living in a toxic zone

that will most likely be uninhabitable for eons.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Arugula Latte]

84. This is now ranked as a 7 -- Chernobyl level.

You want to go move to Pripyat?

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadHound]

82. Gee, that was easy.

"In contrast, there were reports of erythema, hair loss, vomiting, and pet death near TMI at the time of the accident and of excess cancer deaths during 1979-1984 (9,10)."
<http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info:doi/10.1289/ehp.9710552>

Gee, who to believe, an anonymous internet chatroom poster with no sources or a respected professor in the subject, one who has testified before Congress, publishing in a peer reviewed journal:think:

You see, that's the little con game the nuclear industry likes to play. Since radiation exposure in civilians usually manifests itself later as cancers and such, if there are no immediate deaths the industry can claim none are attributed to said incidents, when in reality many people die younger, and more painfully than they would have if not exposed.

[BrookBrew]

97. University of Pitt with public money, vs bullshit 1msv dose feel free to chump a 25 year study

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-11/uopm-nsr103102.php

[MadHound]

108. Somehow being done with public money is better?

Oh, wait, I have more.

"Among the 450 people surveyed, there were 19 cancer deaths reported between 1980 and 1984 -- more than seven times what would be expected statistically."
<http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/04/post-4.html>

<http://www.ccnr.org/fatal_dose.html>
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1638302/>


Sorry, but you're simply wrong.

[BrookBrew]

124. It is a peer reviewed study from U. Pitt.

I did not publish it. Not agenda sites. I am simple linking data from real sources.

[MadHound]

133. Ah, so you have one peer reviewed study

Actually what you are linking to is a summary of that peer reviewed study. But semantics aside, that study was funded by the Three Mile Island Public Health Fund.

Now who is the the TMI Public Health Fund? Glad that you ask. The TMI Public Health Fund is actually funded by the nuclear industry itself. Hmmm, can you say serious conflict of interests here? I can.

Thanks, but I will stick with independent researchers who aren't shilling for the nuclear industry.

[madokie]

131. You got that right

Its the fool who trust the nuclear power industry to be honest with anything. Always been that way and always will be that way. Its the nature of the beast I guess.

[Whisp]

106. who sez? you?

there is much to fear

[tavalon]

109. Oops, one step too far

No one has died from acute radiation poisoning, possibly. Honestly, the tests that utilized our military guys may well have caused acute radiation poisoning. But then, if you are going to say that so far in Japan, not one person has died from exposure to radiation, you are clearly as blind as we all are. There is no way they are going to give us status reports on the approximately 10 people who have been hospitalized since this occurred. We hear they go in, but then, we don't hear anything else. If you actually have information about these folks, link it up.

If you want us to relax, give us good hard facts backed up by good links. Otherwise, you are going to be (and already are, by some) considered bought and paid for by the nuclear industry.

People are understandable scared for the Japanese people and even for their own families. Facts will always help, one way or the other. The folks at the Fukushima plant have been less than forthcoming. That is encouraging wild speculation. Not good.

So, back up your claims with good links or go find another hobby.

[madokie]

128. Thats more bullshit than should be allowed in such a short post

Not one fucking thing did you type that was true nor fact.

[L0oniX]

140. +1

[L0oniX]

137. Dont hold your breath. As legal case is delayed, Hanford nuclear victims are dying.

http://nuclear-news.net/2011/02/07/as-legal-case-is-delayed-hanford-nuclear-victims-are-dying/

[closeupready]

150. Excellent - thanks, mods.

(Pizza does sound good today, but the real thing, lol.)

[WhiteTara]

3. Since the day he said "They all deserve it" meaning

that we the citizens of the US deserved his dastardly deed in 2000 of giving the WH to the pukes; Nadir has had NO credibility to me. The very sight of his name makes me want to :puke:"Ralph" All he wants is some attention. Fuck him.

[defendandprotect]

5. Amazing --

to see this nonsense continuing --

Ask yourself how we can all be so concerned about GOP voting computers but

the Democratic Party has found it a non-issue for 12 years now!!

Gore won the election --

The only people who benefited from this scapegoating of Nader were those who

wanted to hide the stolen election!!

And the balance of your message is puerile --

[WhiteTara]

10. ...

thanks for using your big words for calling me a mouth breathing child. We could have a name calling fight, but I pass.

Had Nader joined with Gore to fight against the republicans for the future of our country and the world, it would not have been possible to steal the election. Nadir chose to remain a republican while running on a "green" ticket and told a small group of people (he never had a huge following) that "they deserve it." Fuck him. I have a long memory and I will never forget what this country could have been and now is.

[Wilms]

21. Pure speculation and specious logic, at best.

Computers, butterfly ballots, vote suppression, recount suppression, and the SCOTUS, plus the massive numbers of idiots voting for bush* are the reasons Gore was denied the office.

I won't bother to comment on Gore's deficits. What's listed above is sufficient cause.

Why do people hate democracy?

[hayu_lol]

35. Time to throw another monkeywrench into the works of...

'The Sky Is Falling' crowd:

Coal-fired power plants produce about/approximately 50% of the power generated in the US. Nuke plants produce about 25% of the power.

How many deaths from Nuclear? Close to zero if not zero.

How many deaths from Coal? Anyone care to guess?

How many deaths from radiation from coal?

How about asbestos?

We do love to throw brickbats and meaningless numbers around this place.

Anyone remember the 'black deaths' in London and Pittsburg, PA from the burning of coal for heating? I do...and I bet there are many here that also remember the deadly coal smog that blanketed both places.

Everyone wants/needs power to run the toys. No electricity-generating plant is ever entirely safe...one of modern life's tradeoffs.

[kristopher]

69. You have the "teams" wrong. It is coal+nuclear vs renewable energy+efficiency

Yes coal is dirty; so is nuclear,

At this point if you support nuclear power you must justify its use.


1. nuclear power isn't "cheap" - it is expensive;

2. learning and new standardized designs will not solve all past problems - waste, safety and proliferation are part and parcel of the technology;

3. the waste problem is a real problem, and that is true even if we’d follow the lead of many other nations and “recycle” our spent fuel;

4. climate change does not make a renaissance "inevitable" - in fact, detailed analysis shows that nuclear power is at best a third rate solution to climate change;

5. there are other ways to provide electricity than with large-scale “baseload” sources of generation as "baseload" is in reality nothing more than an economic construct that developed around centralized generation - a distributed grid approach is technically far superior;

6. there’s every reason to worry that a rapidly expanding global industry will put nuclear power and weapons technologies in highly unstable nations, often nations with ties to terrorist organizations.

[defendandprotect]

79. Not only is nuclear EXPENSIVE -- it's the public on the hook for the expenses ...!!

Common sense and sanity put nuclear power in the freezer after Three Mile Island

-- and Chernobyl!

Just as we had a 26 year freeze on oil rigs --

It's only the corruption of money which has overturned both -- and unfortunately,

it's Obama who is giving leadership to both insane ideas!!

[bluestate10]

99. The issue that I have.

Is plenty of hot, dreamy rhetoric comes out of the keyboards of some on DU that want no nukes and are playing the situation in japan for all it's worth. But, not one single practical solution come forward. Solar, geothermal and wind? Good solutions, but they require expenditure of capital for research. One only need to lurk for a day to realize that many of the anti-nuke crowd are also anti-capitalists.

[kristopher]

153. No, they do not "require expenditure of capital for research".

It is well established that nuclear power is a poor choice for our energy needs. There is no more expensive option than nuclear.

[WhiteTara]

116. You tell me why.

I hate Nadir for his attitude and his actions. He was not a statesman when we needed one. He was/is a self centered egomaniac. I have grave doubts about ALL his motives which he claims to be pure.

[defendandprotect]

73. Gore won the election --

and what you're saying is simply more nonsense.

Not possible to steal an election? Do you recall that we're voting on computers still?

Or the powers that the large computers used by corporate-press/MSM have given them over

decades -- powers that were simply REVERSED in 2000 with the recalling of Florida for Bush?

The Florida vote involved a 537 vote "win" for Bush --

More than 600 illegal ballots were counted for Bush --

More than 3,000 plus votes were lost to Buchanan on the butterfly ballot --

More than 300,000 "Democrats" in Florida voted for Bush --

Other third parties won tens of thousands of votes --

Now Justice John Roberts organized a "Brooks Bros." fascist rally to stop the vote counting

in Miami-Dade County -- with 180,000 votes which remained uncounted.

And, the gang of 5 on the Supreme Court then took over to stop everything and aware the

presidency to Bush --

but you're postive that the 537 votes that Bush allegedly "won" by were Nader's fault?

:rofl: if it weren't so sad!!


Gore didn't contest the election -- nor did the Democratic Party --

though I don't think you could find anyone at DU who ever believed that Bush won.

And he didn't -- according to the Media Consortium which recounted the votes --

no matter how they were counted, Gore won -- including in Florida.

[bluestate10]

101. The person with the most votes won. That would be George W Bush.

Ralph Nader facilitated that win. The mindset that "there is no difference", recently applied led to Scott Walker and Rick Scott, and countless teabaggers that are hell bent on marching society back 50 years. BTW, Gore has not changed. Why is it now so heroic that Olberman has a program on Gore's network. Does the association taint Olberman? You must admit that because both are capitalists that own broadcasting entities, there is no difference between Murdock and Gore.

[SidDithers]

38. Fuck Ralph Nader...nt

Sid

[Forkboy]

42. Whatever floats your boat, Sid.

Who am I to judge how you spend your weekends? :P

[neverforget]

44. Ha!

:rofl:

[bluestate10]

102. Second. nt

[ReggieVeggie]

113. amazing

only one "Fuck Ralph Nader" on the thread

[Junkdrawer]

40. K&R

[spanone]

48. k&r the nuclear lovers are back in force

[Arugula Latte]

92. Mr. Burns is standing over them

making sure they're typing the right propaganda into their little 'puters.

[bluestate10]

103. It is not love for nuclear. Come up with technology that can supply

25% of US electrical power needs today and a technology that allows the safe shutdown of nuclear power plants, I say the hell with nuclear. We don't have those technologies, so nuclear remains a necessity.

[grahamhgreen]

64. Big K&R. Nukes are a fools errand.

[Catherina]

67. Rec'd n/t

[felix_numinous]

71. Can we at least admit that nuclear power plants ON a fault is a bad idea?

Let us all find some common ground, and some common sense.

[bluestate10]

104. There, I have some concerns. But study geology, the entire US and world has

fault lines. Can you say with 100% certainty that a nuclear plant that is not built on a fault line is any safer from an earthquake than one that is? BTW, active faults release energy constantly. The dangerous faults are the ones that have been building up energy for decades, if not centuries. If you need education on what can happen when a long dormant geological fissure suddenly awakens, read about the Mount Saint Helen's volcano.

[felix_numinous]

123. Nuclear power is risk vs benefit.

There are people who accept the risks, but I am not one of them. The reasons I do not accept these risks go beyond my own puny life, I think about future generations. I am saying this not for a debate, it is just the way I am. I was radiographer and know something about radiobiology, and come from a family of geeky types, which makes this sort of discussion very colorful!!

[defendandprotect]

121. They can't admit to that cause they'd have to immediately shut down any number of plants!!

Kucinich was relating the other day that hey built one on Lake Erie --

a source of drinking water!!

Common sense? There is none in capitalism -- it's a suicidal system --

attacking and exploiting nature for a few bucks!!

It also puts our societies/communities on the Merry-go-Round of judging

everything based on the yardstick of a dollar bill!!



:)

[felix_numinous]

125. You brought up the core (!) of the problem!

Which is this--IF the corporations were responsible, honest, transparent people concerned about public safety, then it would be a lot easier to accept. (Though I do not support nuclear power or weaponry because I am a bleeding heart liberal :) )

Maybe at one time in this country we had an establishment more concerned about public safety--but I for one have lost confidence in them.

[defendandprotect]

136. I've been trying to work on a little report ....

from a book by Wm. Greider which I'm re-reading -- it's from '92 -- and I read

it about that time --

Lots to review -- but Greider makes clear that Dems have been collaborating with

Repugs on slanting the tax code towards elites since 1978! -- that's quite a time

before Reagan -- not that I'm pro-Reagan or anything he did!!

Maybe it would help if some others here picked a copy up at their library?

Otherwise -- I will get to it soon!!


:)




The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

[felix_numinous]

149. Happy Monday

--What is the name of that Wm. Greider book you are reading? You got me curious--ti sounds like some vital information for right now, before 2012 election-- I am hoping it is a People's election and not a corporate financed circus again.

[spanone]

78. spent nuclear fuel.....the elephant in the room

what a legacy we will leave future generations

people will die from nuclear



65,000 METRIC TONS STORED ONSIGHT AT NUCLEAR REACTORS ACROSS U.S.A.

[bluestate10]

95. What is your solution? nt

[jus_the_facts]

134. is all that we see or seem...but a dream within a dream?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr5HfnTu2Aw

[L0oniX]

139. ELVIS HAS LEFT THE BUILDING!

[suffragette]

142. Finally!

[closeupready]

151. I saw that, too. Gotta love it.

:hi:

[uppityperson]

152. yay!

I wonder if I repeated my "I knew it would get deleted" description post if it would get deleted again?