And how much money will we pour into Libya when the damage is done?

[DainBramaged]

10 Billion? 20 Billion? 100 billion? All to help 'rebuild'? With the help of our American firms who did such a great job in Iraq?


It's coming, make no mistake about it. Money for foreign aid, nothing for aid at home..... It's about NOT killing your own at home due to starvation, lack of medical care and lack of jobs, but those of you who support destroying our country to help the oil-rich Nations of the Middle East, go ahead and keep bitching at those of us who resent your Nation building.

[Skink]

1. they are going to pay us back with oil.

[DainBramaged]

3. Yes like the Iraqis, which is why gas in $.99 a gallon now...

:sarcasm:

[dipsydoodle]

11. There's been no indication that the "opposition" don't expect to pay

Libya's sovereign fund stands at about $150 billion which should cover the costs just fine plus some payback for inconvenience.

Only whistling , spitting and skipping are free in this world.

[DainBramaged]

13. Right, you've been assured by the White House and Gaddafi....

Who will be the leader there when and if the regime falls? No one knows. The army is not fighting alongside the people, which is why the bombing has begun........

[dennis4868]

2. There used to be a time when...

Liberals did nit care about the costs of helping people who are about to be slaughtered to death...that was a pat Buchanan repub talking point....now in the age of Obama where you have liberals who are against anything Obama does, liberals are sounding alot like Buchanan and repubs who dint give a shit about foreigners who are being murdered by their own government.

[SidDithers]

15. +1...nt

Sid

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

38. Uncalled for

[Donnachaidh]

23. so the families that are homeless and hungry HERE matter less than empire building?

Yeah, let's disappear those people because the warmonger set in the D side is short-stroking it all over the place. Perhaps those folks have more in common with Buchanan the warmonger than they want to admit.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshcryer]

48. It's not an either / or.

:puke:

[bobbolink]

56. So, I'm a "war ,monger", I have a lot in common with Buchanan, etc.

Any other silly stereotypes you want to throw out at me?

THIS is why we as a party have gone down the tubes.

[joshcryer]

49. Many of them have toned down their rhetoric as they've become educated.

For instance, no one is disputing that Gaddafi shelled 2 cities for a week and while one of them was liberated just today, continues to shell another while deploying shooters throughout the city to kill anyone waving a liberated Libya flag.

[Bluerthanblue]

75. So very well said!

what is happening to us???

[Newest Reality]

4. And then,

how much money will multinational corporations reap there?

We, as taxpayers, (unlike many corporations and deadbeat rich) will have our wealth and resources poured-into Libya and it will become an overflowing piggy bank for the fat cats to plunder.

Of course there is the oil and its industry to think of at every step.

[robcon]

5. It'll be regime change and nation-building all over again.

That seems to be the lot-in-life for the U.S. these days.

[OregonBlue]

6. So is it your contention that we should have sat by and watched while the rebels were slaughtered?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

10. Look, I am poor and homeless, and *I* am grateful for the action taken in Libya.

You wanna call *that* "shitty" or any other denigration?

REasonable people can disagree. From my standpoint, there are many aspects to this you are overlooking, but I don't go around calling your view "shitty".

The fact is, this is the wealthiest country in the nation, and it isn't a choice between people like me, and people like the Libyans. The RICH stole our money!

This is a prime example of what I am talking about when I say that "progressive" use us (poor people) for their own ends. When we post asking for support in writing to "progressive media" about the budget cuts affecting poor people, we get a handful of all of you willing to do that little bit.

Yet, NOW it is "Libyans or US poor".

False equivalency, and PLEASE, stop using us in this way!

[DainBramaged]

12. Why shouldn't we put the needs of our citizens first?

For way too many years, the US has jumped into being the policeman of the world with breathTAKING (CORRECTION) speed.......

But wait, you didn't ask me that question, and I didn't call your reply shitty, but the real false equivalency is neglecting those here HERE HERE first to bomb and kill people THERE to protect THE OIL


it's that simple.


And I'll post what I please within the rules....

[bobbolink]

14. NO.... it isn't an either or... we can do BOTH

This is exactly what the money powers want us to do... PRIORITIZE between two or more very important groups.... vets vs children, USians vs other countries, elders vs unions, and on and on and on.

NONE of that is helpful... it is further dividing us.

What I am asking is that you state your OWN opinions about the action in Libya,and NOT use us to further your own agenda.

I get that you have strong feelings about what the US is doing in concert with other countries. Reasonable people can disagree.

But, I repeat... do NOT use me or other poor people to further that argument. Many of us feel a SOLIDARITY with the struggling people of Libya.

Please respect that.

[DainBramaged]

17. Then revolt and I will join you.........

we can solve the problems and force change.......and if you think most of us who live paycheck to paycheck are not one step behind your circumstance, believe me we are. We need to prioritize, not divide, our finite resources, and my belief is we need to do it here first.


Thanks for reading.

[bobbolink]

21. I have been revolting (!) ~~chortle~~ And I HAVE asked others to join me.

But mostly we poor people are ignored.

And, NO... "prioritizing" between groups of deserving people is destructive. I repeat.. that is exactly what the Money Powers want us to do. Fight among ourselves.

I will NOT divide myself from the other poor people of the world.

I will NOT.

[Upton]

27. "PLEASE, stop using us in this way!"

Perhaps I missed the press release, but just when were you appointed spokesperson for all the lower income people of America?

I happen to agree with the OP. Our own citizens should come first. This action in Libya is just going to further enable those who wish to slash programs aimed at helping America's most vulnerable.

[bobbolink]

28. I have just as much right to speak as you do. Sorry that bothers you.

PEACE?

Please practice it.

[Upton]

29. Sure you have a right to speak...

but please don't pretend you're speaking for all the homeless and poor folks in the country...because you're not.

[bobbolink]

32. "Look, I am poor and homeless, and *I* am grateful for the action taken in Libya."

"Look, I am poor and homeless, and *I* am grateful for the action taken in Libya."

"Many of us feel a SOLIDARITY with the struggling people of Libya."

What part of *I* and *MANY* did you not understand?

I refuse to argue with someone who wants to twist words and try to shut me up.

I. WILL. SPEAK.

[Forkboy]

66. More so than you'll ever do.

tell us again about "fat chicks" Upton.

Don't show everyone else what all of us in the Sports Forum already know about you.

[joshcryer]

67. Whoops.

[joshcryer]

47. Complete straw man. One can show concern for poor here, and those being slaughtered elsewhere.

I for one believe the UN needs to act on the Ivory Coast (though obviously a "no fly zone" isn't necessary there, but peacekeepers on the ground).

[nosmokes]

18. There are other responses and options besides the military.

Why is it that no matter what the hell happens our first and only option is to send in the cavalry? We're like a worker with one tool. And we don't even know how to use that one that one correctly.

[Bluerthanblue]

76. unfortunately, sometimes the only way to stop bullets and bombs is with the

threat of bullets and bombs.

This situation was considered to be one of those.

How could we have stopped the slaughter that Gaddafi was in the process of undertaking?

[bhikkhu]

8. As an oil producer, they have a good economic base to manage by themselves

They don't need economic aid, though depending on how things are screwed up by the end in Tripoli (assuming there is and end to the Gadhafi's), international loans are more the custom.

Iraq is a unique case of spectacularly complete mismanagement and criminally stupid failure. Nobody could do that again if they tried.

[DainBramaged]

9. A LOT of Republican plants are still in place around Washington

in a lot of areas of Government, so to assume the cluster fuck know as Iraq couldn't happen again, is like saying we'll be out of Afghanistan by next July 4th....or out of Guantanamo by Christmas of 2009........

[joshcryer]

52. Correct, international loans will be the likely outcome.

This may be the first war in a long ass time that is actually paid the fuck back.

[tabatha]

16. I am hoping that the Libyans will step up to the plate

there are tons of frozen Libyan assets around the world. The Libyans (rebels) have already indicated that they would pay.

I agree - we should not have gone into Iraq, we should have invested in this country instead. Iraq did not invite us there, hence they will not be agreeing to foot the bill - in fact, they would probably like to sue the US for damage to the country.

But here is the irony I have stated before

--- the Libyans are fighting for the freedom to vote in their own government
--- we here in this country dropped the ball in 2010 by not voting in numbers as happened in 2008. I wonder if voting participation would go to 90% if people had to fight for the right.

That is, in a democracy, voters are just as responsible for government policies - vote in bozos and people will suffer.

[bvar22]

30. Do you KNOW who these "Libyan Rebels" are?

Does anybody? :shrug:

In Afghanistan, the "Rebels" were The Taliban (Mujaheddin).

In Lebanon, they were Hezbollah.

There were "Rebels" in Libya long before the recent round of protests.
Is this going to be a case of The Cruelest Tribal Strongman WINS?

Just "Taking Out the Bad Guy" (while it feels good in a TV World) is NOT a viable approach when looking at the Middle East (or anywhere).
There ARE even Badder Guys out there, armed and dangerous.

In Iraq, we Took Out bad guy Saddam without considering "What happens after?"
and look what happened.


Is it Pottery Barn time yet,
or will "they" wait until next week to tell us What we have bought behind Door #1.

[joshcryer]

50. They're freedom fighters who are welcomed in every city that they liberate from Gaddafi.

So far.

[bvar22]

57. Yeah....Right....

"Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.

In an interview with the Italian newspaper Il Sole 24 Ore, Mr al-Hasidi admitted that he had recruited "around 25" men from the Derna area in eastern Libya to fight against coalition troops in Iraq. Some of them, he said, are "today are on the front lines in Adjabiya".

Mr al-Hasidi insisted his fighters "are patriots and good Muslims, not terrorists," but added that the "members of al-Qaeda are also good Muslims and are fighting against the invader"



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x747832

Just because Qaddafi is a Bad Guy, that does NOT make "The Rebels" the Good Guys.
THAT works ONLY on television.

After 50 years of FAILED Military Interventions in the Middle East,
you would THINK we would learn to be careful.

[joshcryer]

58. It does when the tyrant is truly evil. Sorry.

The revolutionaries are not slaughtering their people wholesale.

[dflprincess]

61. Yet..

let's see how they treat the opposition if they get the upper hand.

[joshcryer]

63. Watch carefully, OK? Because you're going to be in for one fucking hell of a surprise.

I predict that as Misrata falls to the revolutionaries many cities around Tripoli will break out in all out rejection of Gaddafi.

A lot of blood will be shed.

But it'll be on Gaddafi's hands.

[bvar22]

68. Maybe....Maybe not....and maybe not yet.

Truth is,
you do NOT have ANY idea who "The Rebels" in Libya are,
or WHAT they are going to do if they gain power.
"The Rebels" are NOT the people you saw on TV peacefully protesting in the square.

The Rebels in Libya existed long before that protest.
There is a better than good possibility that the baddest of the bad Strongman will emerge as the "head" of the "Rebel Army" being assisted BY the USA.
That won't be a pretty picture.


If "The Rebels" are victorious,
you don't think there will be any reprisals against those loyal to Qaddafi?
Wholesale Slaughter is not uncommon in these situations in this part of The World.
Should the US step in if this occurs?
Which side would we be fighting for then?

[joshcryer]

70. There is no "rebel army." They're mostly civilians who have taken up arms.

It's not just "one small group of islamists" it's barbers, engineers, students, lawyers. Your biases are showing, bvar22, be careful where you go with this. I know what you're saying, you know what you're saying, but you damn sure aren't going to actually fucking say it.

[bobbolink]

74. If you turn out to be completely wrong, will you acknowledge it?

And before you ask without answering my question, yes, I will.

[bobbolink]

69. Yeah, I heard that on Faux.

[bvar22]

71. Oh?...and did you hear THIS from today's London Telegraph?

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links

Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.

Mr al-Hasidi insisted his fighters "are patriots and good Muslims, not terrorists," but added that the "members of al-Qaeda are also good Muslims and are fighting against the invader".

<snip>

Mr al-Hasidi admitted he had earlier fought against "the foreign invasion" in Afghanistan, before being "captured in 2002 in Peshwar, in Pakistan". He was later handed over to the US, and then held in Libya before being released in 2008.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html

Oh, here's a photo
just so you know WHO you are cheering for:

Mr al-Hasidi admitted he had earlier fought against 'the foreign invasion' in Afghanistan



You DO understand exactly what "fought against 'the foreign invasion' in Afghanistan" means?

[bobbolink]

72. This has been debunked on the other thread, but then....

Since Faux trumpets it, it must be true.

[OregonBlue]

37. And the rebels fighting the regime not only asked us, they begged us to do something. What should we

do? Just watch the videos of them being bombed and ignore? I don't think the president had any other choice. We don't need another Rwandan.

[nosmokes]

40. They're begging us in Syria,Bahrain,Palestine, Yemen,Jordan and a score of other

countries as well. Do you suggest we *cowboy up* and intervene, I mean drop bombs and shoot missiles all over the globe? Because that just doesn't make any sort of sense to me and I'm opposed to it with every fiber of my being.It's called colonialism and it's wrong.

[joshcryer]

51. Syria, Bahrain, Palestine, Yemen, Jordan do not have their leaders calling for the extermination...

...of the people, door by door, house by house, alley by alley.

[City Lights]

19. The sky is the limit.

The US always has money for war.

:puke:

[DainBramaged]

22. Money we borrowed from China

I'm going out, this is boring and sad that more people want to fight wars than help their own.....just like those who tell us Unions harm the country and transplanted manufacturers are good for the economy, and free trade agreements bring jobs here, and it's OK, H1B visas are meant to help us.


We are fucked up.

[bobbolink]

33. "more people want to fight wars than help their own"

False equivalency and you know it.

We have spoken about this, and I ask you to listen to reason.

"just like those who tell us Unions harm the country and transplanted manufacturers are good for the economy, and free trade agreements bring jobs here, and it's OK, H1B visas are meant to help us."

I resent you putting me into a category I do not belong in, for your own purposes.

You know this is false.

Own your own anger, and stop making up stories.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

44. You know that I am NO a "war supporter", and you KNOW why Libya and not other countries,

You want to insult me, then YOU need to look at YOUR priorities.

Let me know when you are ready to listen to reason.

[joshcryer]

53. DU has become, after people researched, supporters of the Arab Spring, and Libyan revolution.

There are still outliers who want to continue perpetuating anti-Libyan sentiment, just a little while ago you were questioning their ties to al Queda, I believe. Fun times.

[joshcryer]

54. People who feel for the impoverished at home have every right to feel for the weak elsewhere.

Get your priorities straight, you have no desire to have a constructive conversation about the costs of the intervention, and how, or whether it will be paid back (it likely will some time down the line). All you want to do is smear supporters of the intervention as people who don't care about those in their homeland. :puke:

[Bluerthanblue]

77. you don't seem to be getting it- Bobbolink is pointing out something

vital-

that despite the financial cost, PEOPLE are what really matters.

At least as I read it.

And it doesn't - shouldn't matter if it's "our own" or not. Should it?

It's all fine and good to talk about caring for others, but when that caring requires that some monetary contribution, or may mean "less of the pie" for me, then all kinds of issues seem to crop up.

Don't fool yourself, it's no less painful to suffer and die as a result of poverty, in this, one of the richest nations in the world, than it is to die of WAR.

We are fucked up- and we will stay that way until we stop thinking about ourselves FIRST, and consider what the "other" person is facing, and how 'we' can make that better. Which is what I hear Bobbolink doing, and is the path towards real change, change that matters imo.

[Upton]

25. K&R

[Modern_Matthew]

31. Let them put it back together themselves. We've already done way too much. nt

[Iterate]

35. You're right at a basic level,

because it is the first responsibility of government is to protect its citizens, provide for the common welfare, justice, all of that. It's why we form governments, or at least we tell ourselves that's why.

And for the past 50+ or 60+ years we've been told we need to sacrifice, and not just cash, but rights and privacy, jobs, security, medical care -really all of those things that would piss off a DUer on any given day.

And for 40+ of those years we've been asked to sacrifice in particular because, we're told Arabs are angry people, and you already know the reasons we were told as to why they were angry. None of those reasons quite added up regardless of how often they were pushed.

Now, because of the uprisings, we finally get to hear, directly from them, what they are angry about - and it's almost exactly the same complaint as we have, just much more severe. They want freedom and representation and return of their rights and an end to the security state and they want jobs. They want fairness in the economy. Much of the time it's expressed simply as XXX must go, because it's the authoritarian that's keeping them from the rest. Really, I've listened now to hundreds of these spontaneous audio and video pleas, and if you just could translate them properly, culturally as well, and write them up for a DU post, it would get 200 recs. It's the same plea and the same anger.

Their plea is held up is held up by the authoritarians that oppress them, and our plea by the powers that have spent lavishly to support or fight those authoritarians, including Iraq, all the while impoverishing us.

Their problem is our problem, and our problem is their problem. Because, for a generation or two or three they've been told a parallel set of lies about their sacrifices, and they're not buying it anymore.

I don't know if you're with me on that, maybe not. Doesn't matter so much.

But you should know that nowhere have I seen a request from Arab nations for $100 billion for "reconstruction". The EU is giving some 10's of millions for humanitarian relief. But look ahead some, look ahead about what it would mean if, if, if, Arab citizens can gain back their own nations in a swath from the Atlantic to the Persian Gulf and create for themselves secure and representative governments. Suddenly the whole American argument for continued war collapses with it. Suddenly all of those anti-democratic elements in the US who have prospered from the continuous conflict and repression loose out.

I've not heard Libyans ask for cash. Anyone who steps in there and tries to tell them what to do is an idiot, and will likely meet a fate vaguely similar to that of Mussolini.

On the outside chance that this would happen there are only about two things you need to do.

First, try to keep them from getting massacred. Not killed mind you, they know the risk, just not massacred.

And second, if you wish, realize that their problem is your problem, and your problem is their problem: it's the angry Arab conflict game and we're all tired of it.

That's it, just that, no more.

[bobbolink]

55. That really says it all, and says it eloquently. As I watch the videos, and particularly the one

today.. Marching On.... I see my struggle. I see *ME* in that. And I see so many other poor and homeless people who are fed up.. people who have fought the cops without any help from the surrounding town, people who have fought against unhealthy, unfair and repressive housing that has pushed them to the brink of being homeless, and many right over that brink.

I see so many similarities, and I feel it at a gut level.

This isn't "US" and "THEM"....this is "All Of Us".

[Iterate]

59. Or maybe a different "us" and "them"

as in, Arab citizens and American citizens both being victimized by "them" -the dictators, AQ, the fear of AQ, MIC, big oil, neocons, royals, Republicans, BFEE and Saudi Family Evil Monarchy, all of the people who want to perpetuate this fear, the conflict, the oppression, the Iraq war, the Iran war boosterism, the fear of Iran - those are the people who have benefited from it for generations, not "us".

[bobbolink]

60. Yes, there is that side, also... The Powerful (them) vs the rest of us.

Although.... then there is the thought of people like Martin Luther King and Bishop Tutu, etc, who weren't out to topple those in power, but to convert them, changing them from "Them" to "us".

I'm just not as saintly as they are/were. I know they are right, but somehow when push comes to shove, I can't dredge up that kind of saintliness.

[joshcryer]

64. +1, deserves it's own post. Will go ignored.

:(

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SidDithers]

39. Unrec...nt

Sid

[DainBramaged]

41. .........

:loveya: :patriot:

[SidDithers]

42. ...

:hi:

Sid

[DainBramaged]

43. One day the war will end.......

:patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

[sarcasmo]

45. Depends on how much they can steal from other areas.

[lib2DaBone]

46. What about Syria... CIA Alqueida Fighters...?

When are we going to send our young people to die to defend the same terrorists that did 911?

[Iterate]

65. The ones who did that are dead.

There are a few dozen more or so who planned and supported it, plus a few thousand or so who trained or financed or otherwise were members. Sorry but it's been a while since I had those numbers in my head.

And to catch those few people, look what we've done. To fight the cold war against the Soviets we spent fortunes fight against or to support, to arm, to cut deals with some of the same dictators who are still in power and who Arab citizens are rebelling against now. Enough. We've helped sacrifice their freedoms to soothe our fears, and we've been doing it to ourselves as well. Enough. Don't be afraid.

[dflprincess]

62. How much money? Just assume it will be way more than we're willing to spend here

on social programs and repairing our own infrastructure.

[killbotfactory]

73. We have frozen $39 billion of Gaddafi's money. n/t