The poster article for journalists siding with Officialdom re Wikileaks, calling it macaroni

[EFerrari]

First the article, from The Atlantic:

How WikiLeaks Just Set Back Democracy in Zimbabwe

Last year, early on Christmas Eve morning, representatives from the U.S., United Kingdom, Netherlands, and the European Union arrived for a meeting with Zimbabwean opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai. Appointed prime minister earlier that year as part of a power-sharing agreement after the fraud- and violence-ridden 2008 presidential election, Tsvangirai and his political party, Movement for Democratic Change (MDC), are considered Zimbabwe's greatest hopes for unseating the country's long-time de facto dictator Robert Mugabe and bringing democratic reforms to the country.

The topic of the meeting was the sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe by a collection of western countries, including the U.S. and E.U. Tsvangirai told the western officials that, while there had been some progress in the last year, Mugabe and his supporters were dragging their feet on delivering political reforms. To overcome this, he said that the sanctions on Zimbabwe "must be kept in place" to induce Mugabe into giving up some political power. The prime minister openly admitted the incongruity between his private support for the sanctions and his public statements in opposition. If his political adversaries knew Tsvangirai secretly supported the sanctions, deeply unpopular with Zimbabweans, they would have a powerful weapon to attack and discredit the democratic reformer.

Later that day, the U.S. embassy in Zimbabwe dutifully reported the details of the meeting to Washington in a confidential U.S. State Department diplomatic cable. And slightly less than one year later, WikiLeaks released it to the world.

The reaction in Zimbabwe was swift. Zimbabwe's Mugabe-appointed attorney general announced he was investigating the Prime Minister on treason charges based exclusively on the contents of the leaked cable. While it's unlikely Tsvangirai could be convicted on the contents of the cable alone, the political damage has already been done. The cable provides Mugabe the opportunity to portray Tsvangirai as an agent of foreign governments working against the people of Zimbabwe. Furthermore, it could provide Mugabe with the pretense to abandon the coalition government that allowed Tsvangirai to become prime minister in 2009.

(just a bit more)

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/10/12/how-wikileaks-just-set-back-democracy-in-zimbabwe/68598/

Do I have this right? Wikileaks published a cable that showed the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe was secretly backing sanctions against his own country. The idea seems to be, democracy in Zimbabwe has no chance unless Zimbabwe is free to be threatened by the United States?

Wikileaks has tanked democracy in Zimbabwe -- by revealing to the populace that the Prime Minister was secretly colluding with the United States? Democracy has been thwarted by popular participation?

According to this journalist, democracy is what the political elites do in secret, apparently.

Amazing.

[RandomThoughts]

1. A secret plot done in secret would be the set back.

Some think the way for people with a little more compassion or thought to make society better is to do it in secret. But then they have to dumb the people down, and form concepts of superiority complex, and the power gets to them.

The other group thinks you have to bring the population with you, with education to the better ideas like democracy, and compassion.

They were trying to use a dictatorial concept in secret to support democracy.

That is trying to use a bad ring of power for good. That is the temptation of the ring of power, to turn to its bad power trying to do good.

And why better ideas of education and transparency, bringing society with you as you learn, and not just consolidations of a few are better ideas.

Moderation in all things is also because consolidations in society create problems.

[pnwmom]

56. And how does "bringing the population with you" work

when you're living under a military dictator who has vowed to never leave office?

Is that also the policy you supported when we were imposing sanctions against South Africa and taking many SECRET actions while we colluded with the opposition there?

[RandomThoughts]

69. It works by tranparency and democracy.

If you are under a military dictatorship, it works by that dictatorship having to be seen for hurting enough people that eventually people see through what they are doing.

That is the concept of peaceful non violent resistance, and why they control the media in dictatorships.


However they are starting to learn that there are thousands, and maybe even billions, that know the truth and don't talk about it to them, and they never saw it. Showing it to them is a bit of fair warning and also education.

To be fair, not showing it to them would not be upholding idea of free speech without censorship. So figure it is fair to post what has been going on. Both for their good, and for an obligation of upholding ideals of transparency.

[mike_c]

2. slavery is freedom, war is peace, and work, as always, will make us free....

Shouldn't you be shopping today, citizen?

[EFerrari]

3. The internet is my mall.

lol

:)

[H2O Man]

5. Strange mall here

today, eh?

[EFerrari]

6. This week is just too long between holiday meals, everyone gets out of sort.

:)

[pnwmom]

10. Do you honestly not understand why an opposition leader

under a DICTATOR can't do all his fighting openly? Might have to make alliances with other countries, like the U.S., secretly?

[Luminous Animal]

17. Actually, he was already fighting openly. The secret alliance

"The prime minister openly admitted the incongruity between his private support for the sanctions and his public statements in opposition.

...

If his political adversaries knew Tsvangirai secretly supported the sanctions, deeply unpopular with Zimbabweans, they would have a powerful weapon to attack and discredit the democratic reformer."

The reason why he had democratic public support is because he opposed the sanctions. The reason why he is in hot water is because he misled his constituency by secretly negotiating with the U.S. to ensure that the populace continued to suffer.

[pnwmom]

22. He was fighting some, but not all battles, openly.

And Zimbabwe is a dictatorship, not a democracy.

[Luminous Animal]

24. Tsvangirai is the leader for democratic reform. In this particular instance,

he was publicly fighting for the citizenry and privately screwing them over.

[pnwmom]

29. Then you agree with the Rethugs, like Inhofe, who are against

the sanctions.

Or maybe you just like Mugabe.

"President Mugabe declared that, regardless of the election outcome, he would not relinquish power, and directed a crackdown on opposition parties, stating, `Only God, who appointed me, will remove me.''

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.3722.IS:

[Hydra]

30. So you think it's fine that he's happy to be our puppet

So he can grab power and become our sanctioned dictator?

The truth only burns if you've been doing evil.

[pnwmom]

37. Wrong. Secrets are sometimes necessary to protect good people.

Do you think we could have beaten Nazi Germany if all our battle plans and contacts with our allies had been made public?

[EFerrari]

61. Do you know who held the facts about what the Nazis were doing the longest?

Any guesses?

[Pavulon]

65. Did you know Jefferson and others used coded communications

to conduct state business?

[Hydra]

71. We beat Nazi Germany?

Refer to Operation Paperclip for more info. Also see Prescott Bush and various large industries such as Ford and IBM selling to the Nazis during wartime.

As I said, secrets only burn when you're doing evil.

[Luminous Animal]

31. I am against misleading your constituency.

[pnwmom]

38. That's fine in a democracy. But Zimbabwe is run by a dictator

and those who oppose him can't always act openly.

[Luminous Animal]

Tsvangirai also has a constituency.

[Robb]

44. So did de Klerk. nt

[pnwmom]

45. So? He lost an unfair election and he's been given a meaningless

position in the government. His only way to effect change now is through back channels.

[Luminous Animal]

46. Nice one!

[mike_c]

21. what I understand is that lying in defense of "higher callings" is always the first defense...

...of those who get caught concealing their dealings. I agree with the OP wholeheartedly. The argument that undemocratic action was necessary to protect democracy is the old "fucking for virginity" argument. It's the same argument that spawns the need to destroy villages in order to save them.

If there are no democratic means for supporting democracy, then one really needs to ask whether what is or isn't being supported is consistent with democratic ideals. The hidden deal, the kingmaker, the back-room machine-- these are not the mechanisms whereby an informed populace manages it's own destiny. Arguing that these undemocratic actions are forgivable, even necessary, when they're performed for the protection of democracy makes a mockery of that very democracy. If the prime minister must conceal his actions from the people, how can the people call those actions democratic self rule? They simply cannot. They can accept them, as they might accept the actions of any other paternalistic despot, but they can never call them democratic.

[pnwmom]

23. Zimbabwe isn't a democracy. It's a dictatorship run by Mugabe. n/t

[mike_c]

27. I think you've missed the point of the Atlantic article....

How WikiLeaks Just Set Back Democracy in Zimbabwe.

The premise of this article is that undemocratic dealing and double-talk is somehow in the peoples' best interest and serves "democracy."

[pnwmom]

28. No, the point of the article is clearly stated in the article.

Maybe you didn't read that far.


"To their supporters, WikiLeaks and its founder Julian Assange are heroes of the democratic cause. Assange himself has claimed that his organization promotes democracy by strengthening the media. But in Zimbabwe, Assange's pursuit of this noble goal has provided a tyrant with the ammunition to wound, and perhaps kill, any chance for multiparty democracy. Earlier this month, Assange claimed that "not a single person, as far as anyone is aware, has been harmed" by Wikileaks' practices. This is no longer true, if it ever was."

[EFerrari]

36. Wrong. Sanctions on Zimbabwe would be harmful for the people

not the other way around.

I hope you haven't forgotten already that half a million children starved to death as a result of our fatuous sanctions on Iraq or that thousands died while we self righteously bombed Iraq between wars.

If you think the United States ever imposes democracy on anything, well, you'd be historically wrong.

[pnwmom]

39. So you agree with the Rethugs like Inhofe who are against sanctions?

Interesting.

[EFerrari]

58. Pathetic. n/t

[jberryhill]

53. Nelson Mandela was bad for South Africa in your book

Geez.

The Atlantic is hardly "mainstream media", btw.

[freshwest]

4. The lamestream American media hates the competition from Australia.

Assange and Wikileaks just proved they are Emperors without any clothes. I hope their viewers will get wise to them. Turn the TV off! Please do it for your children and the planet if not yourself.

[EFerrari]

7. Hey, freshwest. I like to watch the indies on the bigger screen.

Although they can all be streamed, too.

[PBS Poll-435]

11. Sarah!

:rofl:

[pnwmom]

13. You inadvertently spoke the truth.

"Assange and Wikileaks just proved they are Emperors without any clothes."

How true.

[pnwmom]

8. The prime minister is fighting a dictator. He can't do all his fighting openly.

To think otherwise is hopelessly naive.

[EFerrari]

14. That would be too, um, democratic. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

18. Indeed. He can fight openly by giving lip service to democratic reforms and the end of sanctions.

And then undemocratically, in secret, negotiate to keep the boot on his constituents backs.

[struggle4progress]

9. Did you follow the 2008 Zimbabwe elections? Some of us did

It seems to have precipitated a major political crisis, with lots of subsequent delicate negotiation. I must confess that I do not really understand why Julian Assange, and his small cohort, should consider themselves best prepared to inform the world about the true state of affairs here, based on their possession of a few purloined cables -- but apparently they consider themselves best prepared to inform the world about everything

For Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread. Distrustful Sense with modest Caution speaks; it still looks home, and short Excursions makes; but rattling Nonsense in full Volleys breaks, and never shock'd, and never turned aside, bursts out, resistless, with a thundering Tide! - Alexander Pope

Exclusive: Mugabe prepares for war
Apr-13-08
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3266661

Mediator Mbeki meets Mugabe on Zimbabwe crisis
May-10-08
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3303816

Zimbabwe opposition wins vote for speaker of Parliament
August 25, 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3452864

[EFerrari]

15. Alexander Pope had a great deal of contempt for the great unwashed, too.

:)

[struggle4progress]

19. I suppose that means you didn't follow the 2008 elections

[EFerrari]

34. No, that means you picked a very strange poet to illustrate your dedication to democracy. n/t

[pnwmom]

12. Thanks for the link to a thoughtful, informative article. n/t

[EFerrari]

16. If our president colluded with a foreign power to impose sanctions on us

you'd be calling for his head.

American exceptionalism, alive and well even on Democratic boards. :)

[pnwmom]

20. We don't live in a dictatorship with a monster like Mugabe. n/t

[EFerrari]

32. Living in a dictatorship is not an excuse to exclude the people

but a reason to empower them.

[pnwmom]

43. And how do you empower them in a dictatorship?

By undermining the dictator.

[EFerrari]

51. Well, no. n/t

[Pavulon]

66. Then what? come on E germany was great right and FUCK us for tipping it

over? What exactly should we have done there?

[JackRiddler]

74. The US didn't do shit to "tip over" East Germany. That was Ostpolitik (German detente)

[Pavulon]

77. So the US had no role in the process at all?

no role in the fall of the soviet union?

[jberryhill]

26. French Citizens and Politicians Helped The US, UK and Canada Invade France

While appearing to support the Vichy government.

I guess you find that behavior to be duplicitous.

[struggle4progress]

33. Your view seems simplistic to me. Zimbabwe, after the 2008 elections, was in a state of crisis:

it seems entirely plausible to me that international diplomacy may have averted a bloodbath

Diplomacy often involves negotiating compromises that allow people to save face, and political considerations frequently require people to take public stands that do not fully conform to their personal preferences: I should think such facts would be common knowledge on a bulletin board devoted to political posts -- but, of course, I have been wrong enough times before now and will certainly be wrong again later

The real question here is whether Assange and wikileaks are really doing why they piously claim to do. Their claim, of course, is that they're simply letting fresh air and good sunlight in putrid rooms; the counterclaim might be that sometimes they're just walking down the aisles of a china shop, toppling precariously balanced porcelain-ware onto the floor and yammering Hoo-hah! as it shatters

[EFerrari]

35. No, the real question here is why this reporter and you, apparently,

do not trust the people of Zimbabwe with their own affairs. :)

[pnwmom]

40. Because a military dictator who has vowed to never leave office

is running the country with fear and violence. That's why.

[EFerrari]

50. That is no reason to cut the people out of the process.

Or, it might be an excuse to do so.

[Pavulon]

54. So you are backing mugabe?

you cant have it both ways here. You are either working for that government or against it. It is not possible to conduct that business in public. Any person suggesting that is retarded or has no grasp of the world. Never in history has that been done. Its not realistic and would just lead to executions.

[jberryhill]

55. Obviously Nelson Mandela was not locked up long enough

[Luminous Animal]

76. After reading about 15 Zimbabwe news & blog sites today, the citizens don't seem too worried.

And feel that is mere pompous grandstanding by Mugabe and that he has no legal leg to stand on.

[Pavulon]

79. Unlike here, you can go to jail or worse for posting negative oped. You know the free press

does not exist in Zimbabwe right?

[pnwmom]

57. Mugabe has cut the people out of the process. Do you understand

anything about that government? Do you think we're talking about Canada?

[EFerrari]

60. So, if our government cuts the people out of the process

that's different? No, it's not.

[jberryhill]

63. If our government cuts WHAT people out of the process?

Our sanctions relative to the Mugabe government are a matter of public record. In what way has the public been cut out of the process of enacting those sanctions?

[jberryhill]

25. No, you don't have it right

The only reason he was given the token title of "Prime Minister", but no actual power, was part of a forced settlement deal in an attempt to put on a fake appearance of democracy.

What he was saying was that the appointment was bullshit, and Mugabe was still really running the country.

Your point is that the French Resistance fighters in WWII were "traitors" because they were helping the US, UK and Canada invade France.

Well, duh, yes, the French Resistance was formed to HELP foreign forces invade France.

This is like "rejoicing" because someone published confidential communications to the Red Cross that prisoners of war were being mistreated, in contrast to the public films saying "I am being treated very well here".

[malaise]

41. They will learn the hard way

Remember the hacks are always late.

[pnwmom]

48. I'm wondering if one of the problems with SOME of the hackers

and leakers is that they have a very literal, black and white understanding of "truth" -- as do many people with Aspergers. To a person with Aspergers, the truth is the truth, and lies are never justified. Could the hacker culture have something to do with a disproportionate number of Asperger's people in its ranks?

[jberryhill]

70. That's an interesting question /nt

[malaise]

72. Probably n/t

[Robb]

42. So all sanctions are bad?

I can think of at least one Nobel Laureate who would disagree with you. And I ain't talking about Obama. :D

[pnwmom]

47. I think you should be more explicit, for the sake of the hopelessly ignorant.

Maybe they've never heard of South Africa.

[EFerrari]

49. Appeal to authority?

:)

[Pavulon]

52. Children spilling wine on the nice table cloth..

wikileaks are out of their element and it is just a matter of time before a body gets tied to this. 1.5 million dollars is the assange skim so far.

[ljm2002]

59. "democracy is what the political elites do in secret"

That is exactly how the political elites see it. To them, it is treasonous to entertain any notion that their secret dealings might be the very antithesis of democracy and freedom. All the while they continue to spout the words, "democracy" and "freedom", as they drain them of all meaning.

K&R

[EFerrari]

62. If you haven't scanned the comments to that article, I recommend it.

A number of people have called out the author for his disgusting condescension to the people of Zimbabwe.

[Pavulon]

64. Yep, the CCCP invasion and control of hungary (oh fuck the polish too)

was great. Not supporting it would cut out the "will of the people".. Seriously, is this how the world works for you?

Are you going to pimp mugabe here? lech walesa was an evil evil man.

[Kurovski]

68. He (Lech) was a homophobe

not to change the subject.

[Kurovski]

67. K&R. (nt)

[bemildred]

73. Western policy in Zimbabwe has nothing to do with democracy.

Anymore than anywhere else. You don't have to love Mugabe to think we ought to butt out.

[JackRiddler]

75. How is Tsvangirai a "democratic reformer" if he's lying to his constituents?

The sentence that undoes this article's argument:

"If his political adversaries knew Tsvangirai secretly supported the sanctions, deeply unpopular with Zimbabweans, they would have a powerful weapon to attack and discredit the democratic reformer."

It's not democratic if he claims one thing to get votes while doing the opposite in secret. Democracy means rule of the people, not fool the people.

[Pavulon]

78. Did you know that eating an Albino person cures aids?

depending on how much of your population is ignorant determines just how much information you need to put out there to impact change.

Same reason was given in Pakistan in the cable that was secret detailing a program to reclaim HEU from them (voluntary). Their rabble was the problem.

[JackRiddler]

80. Did you know that opposition to sanctions and myths about AIDS are not the same thing?

First, thanks for your implicit admission that Tsvangirai is not a "democratic reformer" but someone you think should win in spite of the democratic will, perhaps for good reasons.

But come on now, you're making an implicit claim here, so back it up:

What part of the Zimbabwean people believe in eating albinos as an AIDS cure, and what part oppose the sanctions?

What is the overlap of the two sets?

How are the two ideas related programmatically? Are the Albino Eaters a leading group in the anti-sanctions coalition?

Do you believe there is a shared sickness that causes people both a) to want to eat albinos and b) not to want to have themselves be starved by sanctions?

.

[myrna minx]

81. K&R n/t