Is anyone here related to or close to an ex-offender? Hell maybe even an ex offender yourself?

[wndycty]

I have two cousins who are in and out of prison and an uncle who did some major time in the 70's/80's (he is really messed up and just moved in with my cousin, his daughter, after years on and off the streets). My best friend, college roommate, had both his mother and brother go to prison for drugs, his mom was not in long but his brother got 15 years and just got out.

This Vick controversy hits very close to home for me, it really does. In a thread I posted yesterday I talked about recidivism and minority communities because it is very personal for me.

Whether its my family, my best friend's family or your family this is real and folks need to understand that opportunities for ex offenders, even the famous ones, are important to society in general. An ex offender with an opportunity is an awesome form of crime prevention, it reunites families, it is good for us all.

I had a thread locked on this last night, its an emotional issue for me.

[Hawkeye-X]

1. Tried to PM you.. you're not taking PM's?

[hlthe2b]

2. Thanks for sharing...

I only wish the average person received the kind of loyal support that Vick is getting from his fans and employeer.

[davidinalameda]

3. I have a friend

who can't get a job because he's an ex-con

since he couldn't throw a ball, he never received a free education at a pretty good school, never made more money than most of us will ever see before he went in

now that he's out, since he can't throw a ball, he's not making millions in a profession that has people have traditionally looked to for heroes for kids

he's Latino by the way

[wndycty]

6. I think its wrong to begrudge those who get an opportunity. . .

. . .its easy to scream about Mike Vick but do you know who Maurice Clarett is? He is one of the best college football players of the last few decades and who couldn't stay out of trouble.

Hopefully the Vick story would encourage more employers to take a chance on ex offenders.

It is wrong to begrudge someone or deny their redemption because they make a lot of money and are famous.

I hope your friend gets an opportunity soon.

[Aleric]

63. I'm sorry but that's just fantasy

Michael Vick isn't getting a second chance because of some upstanding liberal somewhere who believes people can be redeemed.

He is getting a second chance because of money. Pure and simple. Someone can profit off of him so he gets a second chance.

I don't begrudge him redemption or a second chance if he is sincere in his desire to change.

I begrudge the media attention, the presidential phone call and hoopla surrounding him. There are millions, MILLIONS of ex-offenders more deserving of a second chance than Vick but they will struggle for the rest of their lives because their ability to generate profits are no better than someone who hasn't offended.

Vick's redemption may be real but the media circus surrounding it is destroying the possibility that he can be an example to others.

[wndycty]

80. True, if someone is talented they have more opportunities. . .

. . .but they have more opportunities even before they commit a crime, so it would make sense that they would have more opportunities than other ex cons.

[Aleric]

81. But their new employer

wouldn't be getting a call from the POTUS.

[Tx4obama]

112. President Obama called the Eagles owner to talk about the alternative energy

that they installed in the stadium (the first to do so),
and Obama also talked to the owner about helping to get the other owners of other stadiums to do the same.
Obama did NOT purposefully call the owner of the Eagles to talk about Vick, it just happened that his name came up in the conversation.

[tallahasseedem]

115. I find it embarrassing...

that this simple fact has been left out in the majority of posts regarding this subject.

[Aleric]

116. Because it's incorrect.

Vick was not mere side issue. Vick was issue #1.

"The president wanted to talk about two things, but the first was Michael. Lurie said,"

--http://bleacherreport.com/articles/554586-philadelphia-...

(Actually the word 'Lurie' was 'he' but I can't figure out how to get square brackets to display.)

[Tx4obama]

120. It is NOT incorrect

NEW YORK CITY -- The Obama administration confirmed on Monday afternoon that the president, in a call with the owner of the Philadelphia Eagles, expressed gratitude for the team's decision to give a second chance to quarterback Michael Vick.

But the nexus of the call, spokesman Bill Burton told The Huffington Post, was on the team's plans to use alternative energy sources at their stadium. And while the president was thankful that Vick was given a career do-over, he still thought that the actions committed by the QB -- the orchestration of an illegal dog-fighting ring, the killing of animals and the deceiving of investigators looking into the matter -- were condemnable.

Here's Burton's statement:

The President did place a call to Mr. Lurie to discuss plans for the use of alternative energy at Lincoln Financial Field, during which they spoke about that and other issues. He of course condemns the crimes that Michael Vick was convicted of but, as he's said previously, he does think that individuals who have paid for their crimes should have an opportunity to contribute to society again.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/27/obama-michael-vick_n_801736.html

[Aleric]

124. But of course

Obama's press secretary has no bias or need to spin the tale to fit their needs. That owner guy who spoke shortly after the conversation must be lieing to hurt Obama.

/sarcasm

[Aleric]

117. Vick was issue #1 according to Eagles owner, Lurie

Vick was not mere side issue. Vick was issue #1.

"The president wanted to talk about two things, but the first was Michael. Lurie said,"

--http://bleacherreport.com/articles/554586-philadelphia -...

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. In the context of giving a job to an EX CON

[Number23]

129. President Obama is apparently not ever able to share a personal thought on anything

Particularly one that is in contradiction to the Perpetually Outraged and those who think that Michael Vick should be "executed" as more than one person has posted on this topic.

I've stayed out of these threads because they bring out a level of stupidity and insanity that is too much even for DU. I've seen cries from "liberals" who seem to think that redemption and rehabilitation apply to everyone on earth but Michael Vick, a person I care absolutely nothing about and yet I'm still repulsed by the vitriol thrown at this man. I've seen pedophiles receive less venom here. More proof that this place is full of people whose feet are everywhere BUT grounded in reality.

[TexasObserver]

134. Solid and absolutely correct.

[Kalyke]

147. I'm a liberal who is grounded in reality.

And the reality is that animal abusers/collectors have a nearly 100 percent recidivism rate.

Vick's crimes were not victimless and were intentional. They were brutal and inexcusable. I would gladly be willing to give a man who stole food to feed his family a second chance. I would gladly give a woman who was addicted to drugs, stole for her "fix," but has since cleaned herself up while in prison, a second chance. Hell, I would even gladly give the woman who murdered her highly abusive husband a second chance. While none of those crimes were exactly victimless, they were either out of necessity or as a result of poor laws that don't treat addicts as people in need of medical care or unenforced laws that don't protect abused families.

But, the one thing these crimes do have in common is that:

A. They don't have a nearly 100 percent recidivism rate and;
B. None of them were committed so that someone could get their kicks.

[chimpymustgo]

128. Thank you for your OP. I had not seen it, and just posted a similar thread - THIS is what we should

be talking about - not re-litigating and re-sentencing (to hell and damnation) the Vick case.

God, this world needs more compassion. Thank you for sharing your story.

[TexasObserver]

133. You make a good case for giving ex cons a second chance.

It's a shame that more ex cons don't get a chance to have a decent job.

[RandomThoughts]

4. There are groups that think there is a supernatural prison.

They think hardship in life is a 'supernatural prison'

They literally think that if you have hardship it is because the good cops put you in supernatural jail.

No joke, they really think that.


Part of the reason for some not wanting government is they think that if they get rid of all government on earth, then what they think of as the 'spiritual cops' will stop harassing them.

But the harassing cops are not cops, and want the anarchy.


But to anyone that thinks my situation is some prison, guess what. Your only argument for me being in some 'prison' would be that existence is evil, my argument is there are some bad people in the world that need to correct things to move to a better more just and compassionate existence, and better concepts are what all of existence is.

So to say there is a spiritual prison and that mostly good people are in 'that prison' is to think existence is evil. And also why some hide supernatural, since they have chosen to believe existence is actually evil, making that what they follow by that choice.

And I am not complaining nor even worried about it, except to show it as evidence for existence needing correction. For those that like metaphors, see it as a bug report.

And I will have beer and travel money and many experiences.

[bemildred]

5. Jail is a lousy solution to crime, so yeah.

Our fancy for keeping people locked up is way past the margin for rational policy.

[TexasObserver]

135. Vengeance lust and corporate greed are the reasons our prisons are so full.

As a country, we imprison far, far too many, and the revenge factor has increased every decade since Reagan was elected.

[Posteritatis]

7. I'm not, I know quite a few

My reactions to them depend a lot on the context - what happened, why it happened, what resulted, how they feel and act about it - but if the legal phase of the whole process is over and they're out of prison/paid their fines/etc, I usually try to consider the slate clean. Something like drug offenses, unless there was some nastiness involved in the circumstances, I wouldn't even have to try, since the punishments there usually offend me much more than the crimes do.

Past that, it depends a lot on the situation, but I at least try to maintain some discomfort about continuing to punish someone after the mandated punishments. If I have to hold my nose against my personal reactions to someone and the result is policies or reactions that reduce recividism, then that's more than worth any discomfort I feel about the person.

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. As soon as anybody throws around the term "sociopath"

It's clear that they don't know jack shit about ex-offender issues. They want ex-offenders to be non-violent drug offenders, period. They don't understand that you can be rehabilitated from having been the kind of person who commits atrocious violence. Mind you, these same people get all weepy during Red's soliloquy in front of the parole board in The Shawshank Redemption, but they don't understand fuck all about it. It's indeed likely that they don't know any ex-offenders, or maybe even never had any contact with a culture of crime forced by the culture of poverty. All good liberals, though...so are they all, all good liberals. Thanks for the work you do on this board, wndycty. You're indeed shouting into the wind on this issue, though. For some, anyone who has ever committed an act of violence is a "sociopath" who should be locked up forever. You're dealing with utter cluelessness.

By the way, 95% of people in prison will get out of prison. That's a fact.

[wndycty]

11. I appreciate your comments. . .after last night's thread was locked I considered leaving DU . . .

. . .I'd glad I didn't (besides how does one quit anyway;))

I am having a hard time with this place lately, the only way I can stay is by using my "ignore" list which I hate to do, but it seems we are unable to have conversations with folks on our side that we don't agree with.

I really do appreciate your comments.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pancho Sanza]

18. Indeed...thanks for that.

I think it is a travesty that the sorry POS is all of a sudden being treated as a 'hero' by some people.

[Skittles]

21. same old story

these same people excusing this garbage would not behave the same if a repuke had acted so fucking stupid

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xynthee]

38. Amen!

Vick isn't some poor, innocent guy who was railroaded by the racist justice system (and this is coming from me, the biggest bleeding heart EVER)! This guy tortured and killed puppy dogs, for Christ's sake! People like that can't be rehabilitated, in my humble opinion. Shame on anyone who excuses this behavior!

[Safetykitten]

43. Correct.

[LooseWilly]

75. Could you please cite your proof?

I mean... you "read extensively about Mr. Vick," right? So, could you please cite the passage of your reading that led you to your (uncited) conclusion that "that BASTARD is a SOCIOPATH"?...

I assume you will also be including your reading which supports the citation that you'll be relaying, indicating that your sources for this judgement are, themselves, reliable? I mean, you wouldn't jump to such a judgemental and condemnatory (and libelistic) position without having investigated the sources of what you're reading... right?

Or, were you present at the alleged dog-fights?? (You alleged scumbag!!??)

You do, of course, see the point of my scenario-development-allegory... and I'm sure you will be happy to patiently, and respectfully, while detailedly, go through all the points in which my allegory is wrong, or right... right?

To do otherwise would make you look like a judgemental and vindictive a**hole, and that's obviously a misunderstanding that you would go to great lengths to prevent... right?

[eridani]

74. Sociopathogy is not about violence--it's about not having a conscience

Two very different things. Hardcore sociopaths are about 2% (and no more that 5%) of the population, and the ones with class privilege will likely never see the inside of a cell.

[Number23]

126. I second the props you gave to wndycty. An excellent, smart, sensible poster

Too bad those qualities are all too rare around here lately.

[TexasObserver]

136. Well said. Oh, the public LOVES prison MOVIES.

Brubaker. Shawshank. Green Mile. The Last Castle. We eat it up.

But the reality is that's just fiction, both the stories and false concern for the convicted.

Even prisoners who have committed violent, heinous acts rehabilitate.

And that's in spite of prison being such a horrible place, in spite of the road they face after prison.

[Hannah Bell]

9. After people get out of jail, they should have the opportunity to work -- whatever

their work is.

The permanent disenfranchisement of felons = a violation of human rights.

If they're dangerous, keep them locked up. But once they've done their time they should be able to work & vote.

I don't know what people expect them to do if they can't work. It's psychotic thinking.

[monmouth]

10. I have a friend, now sober, but had two DUIs..Cannot get a job with

the background check. She's been sober for over ten years but this still pops up...

[wndycty]

12. As I have said that needs to happen as a result of Vick's success is. . .

. . .better consideration should be given to ex offenders who are trying to do the right thing.

[Skittles]

16. they don't give a CRAP about average ex-offenders

only rich bastards

[DeadEyeDyck]

23. with nearly 10% unemployment

redemption is a hard thing to find

[JanMichael]

48. Thanks for making the 1 point that matters. $$$.

[TexasObserver]

137. I give a crap about the average offender.

None of them are "rich bastards." They're mainly people whose lives have been screwed up since their mother got pregnant with them.

Most of them don't serve over 10 years. Even if they try desperately to do everything right, they face a life of prejudice.

Some of them have even done worse things that dog fighting and animal abuse. Some of them have actually hurt other humans.

[Bluzmann57]

13. My uncle is an ex con

He had a damn fine job driving a cement truck until he retired.
I work with two ex cons. One did time in the State of Iowa and the other did federal time. Both are good employees. No problem with any of them.
They did their time so no problem whatsoever.

[TexasObserver]

138. Great! Glad to hear from you on this.

[Fumesucker]

15. I have a close relative that did six years on the chain gang for drugs and burglary..

That was over thirty years ago, now he's quite successful, owns two homes that he built himself outright and rents one of them, has his own business that until recently was bringing him in about a hundred grand a year.

I don't have a problem with Vick as much as I do with Obama using Vick as an example, Vick's crime was far more heinous than many, many people who are punished far more severely and have zero chance of getting even a decent job, let alone one paying millions, when they get out of prison.

[Safetykitten]

17. So the question. Because one felon plays pro ball and is a sado-masochistic torture freak,

Do you think possibly, just possibly a Presidental call would be better spent on a felon that has not committed crimes so repulsive that most sane people would recoil in disgust?

[Pancho Sanza]

20. There are plenty of candidates: imprisoned for years over a minor drug charge,

a crime with NO victims, who will languish for the rest of their lives with no NFL multimillion dollar contracts and no calls from the very concerned and empathetic President.

[JanMichael]

47. +1. nt.

[Tx4obama]

113. See comment #112 n/t

[highplainsdem]

26. +1

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. You may not get this, but

dog fighting wasn't even what he was convicted on. In fact, in the criminal justice system it is pretty low in the totem pole.

Also he did get treatment. And you should learn to forgive.

I would also alert you, except that I promised the mods that I no longer do that, for personal reasons... but you really need to realize that there are far worst things than what Vick did... much worst things. Hey some of them are walking free right now and they were responsible for actual war crimes.

I guess if they killed dogies people would really build an outrage... a million iraqis, who cares? And no, I don't mean a sarcasm since none is meant.

[Safetykitten]

32. Our scaleable horrors. Is that it? Where is this table/Excel sheet?

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Nope, I just simply do not get the faux outrage

He served his time. You don't want to watch him, don't.

But he served his time, now he is gainfully employed. That is the way the SYSTEM should work.

Oh and for the record the extent of my sports watching is the world cup, every four years. I could not give a rats ass about it.

[Safetykitten]

42. Lost me at faux.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Good because it is quite faux

[WorseBeforeBetter]

52. Why in the world would you promise the mods that you would no longer...

alert on someone? What a bizarre statement. Were you abusing the feature and given a time-out?

[Critters2]

59. He's getting treatment? I hadn't heard this. Can you link to something

demonstrating that he's getting treatment?

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. He got it while in jail

it was part of the whole shibang.

He should never again own a dog... I think that goes without saying. But he deserves to have a job. He happens to be a good QB... and I got the feeling some folks here would have a problem if he got ANY job. That is a common attitude regarding cons.

[tallahasseedem]

110. I wish we could...

recommend individual posts.

Well said nadinbrzezinski!

[dflprincess]

33. I think a presidental call would mean more if he called the owner of a local Subway

who was willing to hire former felons to give them a chance. Or the woman who has the "Pitbulls and Parolees" show on Animal Planet who hires ex-cons to help her rehabilitate pit bulls.

http://animal.discovery.com/tv/pitbulls-and-parolees/

[Safetykitten]

35. So true, so freaking true.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

92. See my post, #89 downthread. Thanks. n/t

[Tx4obama]

114. See comment #112 n/t

[Ignis]

119. +1. Thanks for nailing the CLASS problem most are overlooking here.

Sympathy for minority ex-felons? I have a LOT.

Sympathy for Mr. Vick? Oh, I think between his millions, his adoring (and blinder-wearing) fans, and his football contract, he doesn't really need my sympathy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. It would sink so fast it is not even funny.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

89. First, the call was not about Vick. Vick was not the main purpose of the phone call.

Second, I am seeing so many assumptions being made about the president and his level of emphathy for either inmates or ex-convicts.

What makes us believe that the president HAS NOT reached out to ex-cons or inmates. Just because he made a phone call to the owner and Vick came up does not mean that it's the ONLY time in which the president has expressed empathy for those who made mistakes.

Here are several developments:

H.R. 265. A bill to target cocaine kingpins and address sentencing disparity between crack and powder cocaine. In fact, I believe that the Fair Sentencing Reform Act was passed just this year and signed into law.

H.R. 1529 - The Second Chance for Ex-Offenders Act of 2009 - signed into Law. This bill has died every year since 2002 in the Senate. - H.R. 1529 - The Second Chance for Ex-Offenders Act of 2009 would permit expungement of records of certain nonviolent criminal offenses. Second Chance for Ex-Offenders Act of 2009 amends the federal criminal code to allow an individual to file a petition for expungement of a record of conviction for a nonviolent criminal offense if such individual has satisfied all the requirements and contributes to the safety and health of his/her family and/or community. Supporting H.R. 1529 The Second Chance for Ex-Offenders Act of 2009 will help first-time offenders with reducing recidivism through work, career advancement and satisfying employment opportunities for Ex-Offenders. In many cases, this lack of job stability perpetuates a cycle of poverty and other forms of disenfranchisement, becoming a major contributor to recidivism which in turn increases demands on the resources of the prison system and drives up costs. Without the possibility of expungement, first time offenders are doomed to a life of menial employment, government dependency or recidivism. Expungement as a legal remedy offers hope to those without access to decent employment.

Expand Use of Drug Courts: Obama will give first-time, non-violent offenders a chance to serve their sentence, where appropriate, in the type of drug rehabilitation programs that have proven to work better than a prison term in changing bad behavior.

Reduce Crime Recidivism by Providing Ex-Offender Support: Obama will provide job training, substance abuse and mental health counseling to ex-offenders, so that they are successfully re-integrated into society.

[annm4peace]

19. Yes, and have worked/helped ex cons

Our Justice system is a mess. As far as CA, the prison industrial complex makes a ton of money for a few. The prison system in CA is horrific. There is so much torture and brutality. There are many in prisons and jails who have had injuries.. I guess i could go on and on.. so I better stop now.

I now live in MN. last night on 950 AM, former CIA agent, and former prosecutor was guest hosting (filling in for Matt McNeil) on the local progressive station AM 950 and talked of our justice system. It was really good.

http://www.am950ktnf.com/files/archive/The%20Matt%20McNeil%20Show%20122710.mp3
The U.S. spends $74 billion a year on criminal and court proceedings for drug offenders compared with $3.6 billion on treatment. And yet, about 1/4 cases are drug cases and about 40% of all cases are drug related. What is wrong with this picture.

I will take clients into the trenches as I talk about experiences representing real clients in real courtrooms to talk about what it means, how much money we are talking about, and how much the system has truly failed. To talk about the War on Drugs is to tear into both left and right, Democrat and Republican. And I will not hold back.


Also, here is a great program they are doing in the Women's prison.
http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/news/2010/12/17/reentry-clinic

By Anne Hamre, Minnesota Women’s Press
December 27, 2010

"No matter what life brings you, there is always someone there to help you through. There are people who can help you move forward, who can be strong and support you through the wreckage of your past."
-Sharon Kennedy, Reentry Clinic client

More than 550 women are incarcerated at the Minnesota Correctional Facility-Shakopee, Minnesota's only women's prison. Their criminal backgrounds vary widely, from forgery to felony DWI to murder. Drug offenses constitute one-third of the governing sentences.

In an average month, 30 rejoin what's usually called "society." The lives of Reentry Clinic clients, like those of all women, are works in progress. They're white, African-American, Native American and Asian. Their ages range from 18 to 50-something.

Despite their vast differences, each has "a record," and sometimes it seems that record is all society-in the form of prospective employers, landlords, and neighbors-sees.

Joanna Woolman sees beyond the record to what she calls the "amazing women" that they are. And when they're paired with women lawyers-in-training who accompany them on the transition back to society, the results are impressive.

[TexasObserver]

139. Very enlightened. Thank you.

Prison is a horrible, horrible place that is hardest on the prisoners who have been convicted of the least serious offenses.

5% of Texas Prisoners are raped in prison, with many being raped numerous times.

People like to think the men (and women) getting raped deserve it, but that's seldom the case. The guys who get raped are the young, the small, the vulnerable.

Our country's penchant for criminalizing so many is expensive, self defeating, and mean spirited.

[duhneece]

145. One org is helping raped inmates

Rape should never be part of anyone's sentence.

One organization is trying to end rape of inmates. They have a program going on where you can send a card of hope to an inmate. I like this org.

http://www.justdetention.org/

And it's also my opinion that no one should ever be locked in a cage like a dangerous animal because of what he/she wants to put in his/her body. Of course, if you drive while intoxicated, lock 'em up to protect the public, but if you want to do heroin or cannabis in your own home, it should not be a crime.

[TexasObserver]

148. Thanks for your good work!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

24. I have them in my family as well. One in for life for violent crime.

Two others for non-violent crimes.

The attitudes displayed here on this forum for the last few days has really bothered me.

Liberals used to champion rehabilitation and praise those who have paid their debt to society in various ways. Now at least on DU, I am witnessing some very troubling attitudes. And the issue of disparate treatment of minorities and the poor in this society in the criminal justice system is very, very real. I believe that rehabilitation works. And I also believe that judicial activists and champions of civil liberties should continue to fight for equal treatment under the law. It really has very little to do the Vick issue, too. It's the attitudes that have bee bothering me for a few days now.

[Liberal_in_LA]

37. +500

[Safetykitten]

41. These are the points.

Ex-Felons should get a chance at redemption. They should have the things needed to get back into society. THAT being said, there are alot of people here throwing out the "Liberal" gig, but would have NO problems tossing a sex-offender or pedophile out of the house. Me? I would have issues with a pedophile or sex offender.

Now the big news...

A PERSON TORTURING ANIMALS IS A SICK INDIVIDUAL. In the same category as a pedophile or sex offender.

So....people here would have no qualms heaving a sex offender from the house, but in MV's case, he gets a pass, and a Presidential mention.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

54. I understand what you mean here, but I wish the comparisons to sex offenders

and pedophiles would cease, especially when it comes to those who commit nonviolent crimes. It's grossly unfair.

As a dog and cat lover, and owner of two cats and a dog, I believe that what Vick did was absolutely disgusting and he should have been held accountable and more.

However, I don't think he's gotten a pass at all. I think the disagreement comes when we discuss whether or not he has sufficiently been punished, served his time, and is now trying to make amends. Many people here believe that he has not. Others believe that he has.

[treestar]

86. That's another issue

I don't see it as in the same category at all.

Animals are wonderful, but they aren't people. A sex offender is much worse than Vick - that person harmed another human.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. They have bothered me too

but remember, dogs were involved... sadly I am not kidding.

[MicaelS]

56. I know you're not, and what is truly sick, IMO...

Is how many Liberals, Progressives, Leftists, etc, apparently care more about animals, especially cute dogs and cats, than they do human beings.

[SidDithers]

57. There's a very blood-thirsty segment at DU, who are all about punishment and revenge...

some are right here in this thread.

Sid

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

90. I've noticed this. And somehow they're using the Vick situation as a way

to attack the president.

[Number23]

131. They use EVERYTHING as a way to attack the president. Why the hell should this be any different?

[fortyfeetunder]

72. +1 brazillion n/t

[TexasObserver]

140. Yes, liberals used to champion rehabilitation.

The opinions hostile to the concept are truly disturbing.

I wish there was a way to better identify how the two opposing groups break down.

I suggest that people who reached age 21 before the Reagan era are likely to be more liberal on prisoner issue than those who reached 21 after Reagan took office. The past 30 years has been a steady regression backwards in time. The country peaked on this issue in the 1970s, and compassion has been losing ever since.

[beyurslf]

25. Agreed.

What do we expect a felon to do if he can't get a job or a house or anything else? How is he supposed to become a part of the community again?

[Stinky The Clown]

27. Yes

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. I made that point this morning

I really do NOT get what the controversy is. The system is WORKING in this case the way it should with EVERY OFFENDER, PERIOD!

He did his time... move on.

But it is also class envy and some of these folks, I hate to say it, do not understand that Vick got lucky. he has a skill that should allow him to escape the projects, and perhaps... use his good luck to help a few others out of that pattern.

And the President was praising an owner for a second chance... which is what people here miss, mostly out of envy... and yes, fear.

[pacalo]

30. I'm one who has actually re-thought my opinion.

First, you need to know that I had a personal experience in regard to my lost dog & a devastating possibility that he had been picked up by a gang, near where my dog was lost, to use in dog fights. During my week-long, frantic search for my much-loved dog, I was told by a young boy that I should look in the canal, which was only yards away, that gang members threw dogs who were used in dog fights & could not fight any more into that deep canal. All I could think of after that was my Boston Terrier being mistaken for an aggressive type put in a fighting ring or cage with a dog that would have my affectionate, gentle dog whimpering & being mauled to death.

In regard to how I feel about Michael Vick, he's the scum of the Earth & I have no desire to see him perform on a football field or any other tv venue. He's a walking reminder of the week I was worried sick that my dog had been a silent victim of someone like Vick.

However, I do believe in second chances. He went to jail, which is more than a lot of gang members have had happen to them due to their secret, hidden dog-fight locations. He's paid a hefty fine, too. If the NFL sees fit to hire a liar & sneak, a cruel man with little character, that's fine with me. I have the choice not to watch him.

[woo me with science]

31. I still think it was a tone deaf and grossly insensitive move by Obama to single out Vick.

My point all along has been that there are thousands of other offenders who would have been better recipients of such support.

But FWIW I agree with you on the thread locking.

[JoePhilly]

91. Obama didn't single Vick out.

Obama was talking to the Eagles owner about how the Eagles stadium is going green. That was the primary topic of their discussion. They also discussed football and the Eagles success this year. And that's when Obama said he thought it was good of the Eagles to give Vick a second chance.

The only reason anyone knows about Obama mentioning Vick is because the owner of the eagles mentioned it later. And naturally, that's the only part of the discussion that the media put forward.

Bottom line. Obama didn't single Vick out.

[JoePhilly]

93. wrong spot.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

95. And we on DU and in the wider progressive community took the bait.

The press knew damn well that if somehow they could focus in on Obama and Vick, we'd be in an uproar. Like clockwork, it worked! :(

[woo me with science]

106. Sorry, but that's not even remotely believable.

A President knows that his words will be public. This was a deliberate choice on his part.

[HEyHEY]

34. Just the one triple homicide

But the good people at Denny's now know not to oversalt my eggs.

[Liberal_in_LA]

36. kick

[HEyHEY]

39. My Best friend's little brother is a mess, and it's only going to get worse, I fear.

I've known him since before he was born and it hurts to have to hear about this shit whenever I talk to my friend. It's a great family too, loving parents, well off, my best friend is married and a successful president of the family business now. But his little brother just did time for mugging someone for drug money.

It's a constant spiral and very sad.

That said, I'm all for giving recently released inmates a fair shake. I've met a few people in my life that had done time and turned it all around.

[JanMichael]

45. Yes. Been punished on work apps after the fact for 24 years.

For a fucking non-violent MD not an f'ing Felony. I should add that minimal property damage was done and no living things were physically hurt, raped, or tortured for fun and money. Plus I have never been publically praised for creating a decent career since. Not by ESPN or DU; certainly not being cheered and paid millions for playing a fucking game. I actually have to work at a non-celebrity job with no anonymous accolades but plenty of anonymous Teabag hatred!

That's the difference.

Oh did I mention no prolonged multi-year hidden underground drug culture and systematic torture of living things? Yeah. That bugs me.

Scout is my second best friend on this planet. The thought of mutilating dogs or cats or cows or pigs (ETCETERA) for fun and regional gambling disgusts me to no end. Future serial killers typically do less harm (rape tables FFS???)to fewer animals in their lead up to chopping up humans.

[wndycty]

50. A few questions

1) Did Obama tell the Eagles owner to tell the press that he commended the organization for giving Michael Vick a chance?

2) Did the White House proactively pitch the content of Obama's conversation with the Eagles owner to the press or did they just respond to follow up questions?

3) Do you have a talent or skill that would earn you fame and millions? If you do, do you think that your non-violent MD should prohibit you from making a living with that talent or skill?

[JanMichael]

53. Answers.

1) Did Obama tell the Eagles owner to tell the press that he commended the organization for giving Michael Vick a chance?

Don't care.

2) Did the White House proactively pitch the content of Obama's conversation with the Eagles owner to the press or did they just respond to follow up questions?

Don't care.

3) Do you have a talent or skill that would earn you fame and millions? If you do, do you think that your non-violent MD should prohibit you from making a living with that talent or skill?

That is irrelevant and an attempt to put the onus/focus on another topic. That's a diversion. Plus I simply don't believe in the acceptability of millions in poverty standing toe to toe with thousands of good game players making millions. Period. No amount of pleading or discussion can sway me the other way.

[TexasObserver]

141. Please allow me to publicly praise you for creating a decent career

Good for you.

As you note, some lives are ruined by fairly innocuous convictions and punishments.

I don't give a damn about Vick. Don't give a damn about football, either. The principle is what matters. Not surprising the president would use a sports figure to make a point. He should do the same for offenders no one knows, and maybe he will.

As for Vick, if he screws up, he's going back to prison. Period.

[librechik]

49. i'm still an offender, as many here will attest

kidding aside, I have friends and family who have spent time inside. IMO Leave Vick alone until he commits another crime> He's very lucky to have a job.

[Ilsa]

51. Yes, my late sister-in-law.

She became a functioning, disciplined member of society after prison. It was her "rock bottom". She grew into a friend for many people, including me, whereas as before, she had been so unhappy that she made a lot of people miserable around her. She was truly "reformed."

She died suddenly this last Spring. I wish she had no had to spend so much time after prison still working to clear her debts and fines. She was almost through paying everything off when she died. I wish she had been given more time on earth as this person. She had become a joy to be around.

Yes, I believe reform is possible.

[H2O Man]

55. Recommended.

Thank you for this. I'm glad that you didn't leave DU.

I've said this before: A kid that went to school with my sons tried out on Vick's team. I know this young man well. He said he hung out with Vick frequently, and not in public. He said that Vick is sincere in recognizing that he did wrong. And that Vick wants to do everything he can to pay for that, beyond having served time.

Those who are calling Vick a "sociopath" don';t have a clue what they are talking about. Not a fucking clue.

[TexasObserver]

142. Well said and accurate.

We have millions of ex cons in this country. Most of them are desperate not to go back to prison, although many will. Most have doors being slammed in their face. It's a long, hard fight for anyone who tries to do right after getting out. For those not trying to do right, it's easy to fall back into the life they knew before prison.

If Vick isn't sincere, he'll end up back in prison.

[SidDithers]

58. K&R...

good post.

Sid

[Lucian]

60. Vick didn't pay for his crimes.

I don't care about his prison term. That means jack shit. He should've been banned from the NFL at the very least.

And he didn't change. He's putting on an act to try to win back the favor of fans and such. I'm sure if he was given the opportunity to do what he did again, he'd do it.

I'm sick of this "poor Michael Vick" shit that's posted here. It's getting really annoying.

[CakeGrrl]

64. Yes he did. Don't like it? Get the laws changed. n/t

[Lucian]

65. I'm glad you're trying to rationalize your like for him.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

If a child molester got out of prison, he served his time, but I still wouldn't allow him near any children.

Would you?

[CakeGrrl]

68. Nope. And what does that have to do with the Vick situation?

You're railing against a justice system that has tried, convicted and jailed the man. What is your point? What do you hope to achieve?

You don't have to like Vick (I don't know the guy, so what are you talking about?) to make a logical argument.

I stated facts about his situation. You can't do anything about what has been done and is past.

I guess you can feel better convincing yourself that you can divine the future to pre-emptively justify your anger by saying you know he'd do it again, but again, to what end?

And by the way, do you hold the "once an offender, always an offender" attitude about everyone who has broken a law?

There are no dogs under his control now. And it's probably not likely that there will be anytime soon.

What else do you want?

[Lucian]

69. Same damn thing.

Vick and the hypothetical child molester both serve their time, but I'm sure you wouldn't have the same attitude towards the hypothetical molester, would you? You wouldn't want him to move into your neighborhood? Near children? Same area code as you are?

Didn't think so.

But hey, he served his time, so shouldn't he get his second chance also? :eyes:

[CakeGrrl]

70. NOT the "same damn thing"

Which is the distinction a few others are trying to make as well.

Vick isn't going to be near dogs anytime soon as far as I understand, so what is the deal for you?

[Lucian]

71. I'm talking about his second chance at making millions of dollars.

If me or you would've done what Vick did, we would be in prison for years. Our careers would be over. But Vick, on the other hand, gets another shot at earning his millions, and possibly going to the Super Bowl.

Where's the justice in that?

[CakeGrrl]

73. That just happens to be what he does. I believe on the whole that

the sports and entertainment industries are chock-full of ridiculously, obscenely overpaid individuals based on the "talent" some of them display.

It is what it is. His job happened to be NFL quarterback before he was tried and convicted, and he sought to work his way back to his job after incarceration.

It's not his fault that American society so disproportionately compensates professional athletes and entertainers.

But as I said on another thread, the thing that can come out of this high-profile example is to send a broad message to more potential employers that someone who has been found guilty of an offense could still be willing and able to perform a job to the best of their ability.

[cleanhippie]

104. Ahh, so you are just angry that he makes more money than you.

Makes sense now...

[cleanhippie]

102. You are not addressing your original point, but instead attacking that strawman you put up.

In case you need a refresher...

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.<1> To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


How about you start back with your original argument, that he should be banned from working in his chosen profession.

If he had been a dog trainer, you would have a point by keeping him from being around dogs...

Oh, yeah, that was part of his punishment....but you knew that.

[cleanhippie]

101. You are putting up a strawman AND moving the goalposts, at the same time.

Fallacious and disingenuous arguments. Why should anyone respond to such nonsense?

[Union Scribe]

98. Serving time isn't payment. It's punishment and hopefully used

for rehabilitation, but it is not payment. Many crimes are not repayable. They aren't loans; you can't pay back a society or a specific victim for things like rape, murder, etc. or even Vick's crime.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Change how the NFL works

because he did.

[treestar]

87. Some of it is resentment at his earning power

That's a different issue. You would not say the same of a person who was convicted of the same thing but had a minimum wage job.

[cleanhippie]

100. Laughable, and not very progressive.

Banned from working in the field he trained for? Is that what you advocate for ALL ex-offenders? How very progressive of you.

[shimmergal]

150. And you know this how?

the "he didn't change. He's putting on an act..." part

Do you have some telepathic insight into Michael Vick's heart and soul?

I love dogs and I never watch pro football but some of the things being said here are ridiculous. It's like people think they can get brownie points from the Goddess of Dogs by badmouthing Vick's attempts to build a new life.

[Iggo]

61. +

:thumbsup:

[TexasObserver]

67. I've worked with prison families through a charity for the past decade.

The toll on families is unimaginable. Here's the norm:

**They lose a father, even if he's not the best one.

**They have to take government assistance to get by, and suffer ridicule because of their convict parent and getting assistance.

**A family stressed for money has to make trips on certain days to see the father/boyfriend/son/husband.

**Life is hard for the kids, hard for the mother, and hard for everyone else.

**5% of the imprisoned will be raped, and not because of whatever they've done, but because they're vulnerable.


I'm not saying that people shouldn't be convicted of wrongdoing, but incarceration should be much more limited. We have a better chance of saving these extended families if we don't make life after conviction so punitive on everyone associated with the convicted.

If our system was aimed at catching and putting away truly dangerous men and women, I'd be more favorable, but it isn't. It's aimed at crushing poor people with horrid backgrounds, with generations of ignorance, family violence, and substance abuse.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

96. Thank you so much for sharing this!! Thanks so much!

It's so easy for us to sit here on this forum and pass judgement on others for their mistakes. Until they've been inside and they've witnessed what goes on and how it destroys families, they have absolutely no clue what they're talking about. None whatsoever!

Thanks, WC for starting this thread. I'm glad that you didn't leave the forum. This discussion should be had.

[TexasObserver]

108. You're welcome. It's a tenet of liberalism, too often forgotten.

Honestly, when I read DU sometimes, I wonder what has happened in America so that people can think of themselves as liberal AND believe we should throw everyone in prison for every infraction of the law.

[travelingtypist]

76. Convicted felon checking in.

I committed a gun crime against a family member 22 years ago. This person is okay. Got five years probation.

It really does follow you around. There's a lot of stuff I can't do. It's one of the reasons I work from home as a transcriptionist. My clients don't care and have never asked if I have ever been convicted of a felony.

[wndycty]

79. Thanks for sharing

:kick:

[TexasObserver]

143. Congratulations! Keep it up!

[Caliman73]

77. There but for the grace...

I have people I know, had some family, and have been a hair away from choices which would have lead me to prison a few times in my life. I get what you are saying.

There is a difference between condoning behavior and understanding that all humans are capable of the most horrendous acts given the circumstances. Anyone who says, "I WOULD NEVER...." is fooling themselves.

[old mark]

78. K&R....nt

[lonestarnot]

82. I offend many

:evilgrin: but never been jailed for it yet.

[LanternWaste]

83. My father spent five in state and seven in federal...

My father spent five in state (Huntsville, TX) and seven in federal (FCI Ft Worth, TX) as I was growing up. I realized that beyond the unavoidable prison sentence itself, there lies afterward the concomitant justice and sentencing of social mores. He accepted that, worked diligently, and did his best.

[GeorgeGist]

84. One I know ended up POTUS ...

where he committed crimes against humanity. Obama thanked him for it.

[treestar]

85. No, can't say I know anyone

But I still think that one who is let out of prison has paid their debt and the punishment should not continue. They should be able to vote. Otherwise they are excluded from society. People who are excluded from society should be locked up. If they are free yet excluded from society, they are dangerous.

Once they are out the punishment should not continue in any way. Rehabilitation should be the approach, not continued punishment.

[msanthrope]

88. Vick has served his time. It doesn't mean I have to watch him, though.

I agree with you that all offenders who have served their sentence should be afforded the opportunity to work and live.

However, that does not mean that I have to cheer them on. So Vick can play in the NFL, along with the rapists, murderers, and other miscreants. That's the NFL's business decision. I don't have to turn my TV on to watch him, or the commercials. That's my business decision.

[Union Scribe]

99. Great post.

[bullwinkle428]

111. Must be a sign of the apocalypse. I can't believe you actually made

a post that I AGREE WITH ABSOLUTELY 100%!!! :rofl: :rofl:

Although I'll only disagree with you in the sense that it's so much more enjoyable to cheer VERY VERY enthusiastically for whatever team happens to be playing the Eagles.

Last night was an AWESOME night for me!

[BobbyBoring]

123. Yeah Me Too

I felt all warm and fuzzy watching Vick limp off the field. I think the Vikes D had been monitoring DU and were giving Mike a little extra spanking:fistbump:

[JoePhilly]

94. 2 nephews, both recently out of jail on drug and weapon charges. nt

[tomg]

97. I have a cousin who

did some time for a drug offense. We were close. I also taught some classes in a max security prison a while back.

I would have been really joyful had a phone call from the POTUS gone to some otherwise unknown owner of a small business after that owner had hired someone who had just gotten out and just needed a hand. Years ago, I taught guys who often didn't have too much before they went in and who didn't have much waiting on the outside.

I honestly agree with you in all you say, but instead of looking at what the sports stars and the owners are doing, I would like the woman who runs a small factory or the guy who has a local clothing or furniture store be singled out for doing the right thing. I do wish Michael Vick all of the best.

[wndycty]

103. Do you honestly believe that the Eagles owner is the only person Obama has commended. . .

. . .for employing ex offenders?

Seriously, do you?

You wrote "I honestly agree with you in all you say, but instead of looking at what the sports stars and the owners are doing, I would like the woman who runs a small factory or the guy who has a local clothing or furniture store be singled out for doing the right thing. I do wish Michael Vick all of the best."

Obama has made encouraging second chances for ex offenders a priority, as did Bush, so I would bet he has commended more than a few business owners for employing ex offenders. Assuming Obama has called small business owners who employ ex offenders I doubt the press would pay it much attention. And it should be pointed out that the White House did not actively work this story, this was driven by the Eagles owner.

[tomg]

121. No, of course not, and

reading more about it ( I have been out of the country)it is clear it was driven by the Eagles. In my comments, I simply wished that there would be more attention drawn to it when the figures are less prominent.

This is something that you care very deeply and personally about, so you are more aware and knowledgeable of this and of what is occurring than I am. I honestly had no idea that either George Bush or President Obama had made it a priority.There was no intention on my part to be insensitive to the issue or to criticize the President on that issue( I have some problems with the President in some areas, and I also think he has done some pretty good things in others). I am very glad to know that this is a priority with him, but I didn't know it before you mentioned it ( particularly the comments about former President Bush).

edit:typo

[Kweli4Real]

105. I have, literally, 100+ people from my youth ...

who are ex-offenders, including family members and my present day closest friend. Further, I have worked as a Community Re-entry Counselor for ex-offenders; so yes, I have known and am close to some ex-offenders.

Some one up-thread mentioned the disturbing post of some of the liberals posting on this thread; I have thought on this subject (well actually many more, but these two will not get me TS'd) ...

The single thing (IMHO) that has always set liberals apart from conservatives is empathy ... the ability to ask, and honestly answer, the "what if it were me" question. I sincerely doubt that those riling against Michael Vick, his crime and his subsequent re-entry into society, even the call from the POTUS, have asked or honestly answered that question for themselves.

I have enough experience with human nature, and I am not unique in this, to believe: if they were in Vick's position, they would want the public (especially among "liberals")to accept that he has accepted responsibility for his crime and paid the price that the courts assigned to him (it matters not whether YOU think he was not punished enough; he served the time he was given).

But more, they would want the public to accept that they have been rehabilitated and they would be highly offended that "liberals" (of all people) would have the nerve to question, without any evidence to the contrary, that they had, in fact, changed their behavior and reformed their world-view.

But at the very least, they would want (after having served their sentence) the opportunity to perform in whatever field of endeavor for which they have talent.

We are all flawed and make stupid decisions -- decisions that others could view as indefensible, unexcusable and unforgivable; but it is distressing that (self-profused, "liberal") would come down on the side of finding someone they neither know, nor have had personal contact with, irremediably flawed.

[TexasObserver]

144. Excellent post with great insights.

[duhneece]

107. My son just did four years in prison

My son's 'crime' was non-violent drug offenses. No theft, no fraud, no stealing. I want ALL offenders to have second chance. Bless our President for saying so.

[TexasObserver]

132. Thank you for your testimonial.

Half of the prisoners or more should never serve time, and wouldn't be serving time if our governments had not sold out the penal process to private interests who have beds to fill.

With few exceptions, the opportunity for redemption and rehabilitation should exist.

[flvegan]

109. Good post, had you left the reference to Vick out.

Did Vick serve his prison sentence? The state says he did. Fine. So did the serial rapist down the street, if the state says he did. Bush and Cheney are war criminals, even without conviction. Vick is an animal abuser.

You let me know when the rapist and the war criminals get to drop their labels, and I'll let you know when Vick drops his.

I'm sorry that your family and others close to you have had troubles. I wouldn't link them to Vick this way, because to me, it blemishes the otherwise good point you do have in mentioning them.

[Maru Kitteh]

118. Vick HAS his family back, his job back, AND millions of dollars

That ought to be more than enough.

[TBF]

122. I meant to actually answer your question as well - two cousins of mine are ex-cons

(drug-related), so I do understand the need for job opportunities for those who have paid their debt to society. Vick is simply not the poster boy I would have chosen given my own love of animals.

[nc4bo]

130. Yes, by marriage. nt

[southernyankeebelle]

146. Everyone deserves a second chance. I feel bad for their kids. I live in a rural small town and

I remember a teen that would come in to where I worked to play b-ball. He is a good kid. He talked about his dad being in jail. I told him he wasn't his father. I told him to learn from his father's experience and hopefully he won't follow in his tracks. His dad was busted for drugs. He served his time and now is out.

[Nikia]

149. My husband is a drug felon

He only served a short jail sentence and 2 years probation but he will forever be a felon. For now he is staying home with our 2 year old. Childcare would cost more than his income potential.
My cousing recently got out of prision for vehicular homicide. He drove drunk with some friends and they died when he got in an accident. I don't know if he found a job yet.