The middle/lower classes say "tax the rich!". The rich say "cut services!"

[dkf]

Isn't the point of both of these that nobody wants to pay for services?

[Skink]

1. the poor realize the rich profit more when there are good roads and schools.

[dkf]

2. Tell that to Carlos Slim.

[Hannah Bell]

109. wtf does carlos slim have to do with anything? he's a mexican national.

[Rex]

3. Sad thing is the rich can afford services, yet if they didn't get a cut

they would still have billions. The point is the rich should pay their share and they don't.

[fascisthunter]

19. to support your point, the rich use our commons more

than the rest in this country, it is what made their own success possible.

[Rex]

80. The very wealthy have a far higher stake invested in America then your average

worker, but people would like to argue they shouldn't have to pay more to keep it that way.

I am beginning to understand some people here just don't know how bad the working poor have it. And saying they should pay and don't care about contributing to the commons good...as if rich people do (they start the wars people, lest we forget) is stupid. You can take all the infrastructure in America that the wealthy paid for and minus it from all the dead bodies from wars (that made them even richer) started by the ruling elite and end up with a huge negative blackhole.

If people want to support a plutocracy, then they need to find another forum imo.

[fascisthunter]

4. actually its more like, "Pay your fair share..."

"...so We the People can take care of each other when shit hits the fan!"

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

[dkf]

7. If 47% don't pay Federal income taxes are they paying their fair share?

I never really understood how paying nothing is paying your fair share. To me this fact undercuts the argument of what is fair.

[DJ13]

8. Yes, because the United States is comprised of States

And even those paying no federal taxes pay a higher percentage of their paltry income in state taxes than the wealthy pay in combined federal and state taxes.

[valerief]

10. Are you talking about the wealthy who move their money to offshore tax havens?

Or the ones who pay lobbyists to pay Congress to keep the capital gains tax low? Is that the "fair share" you mean?

I suppose you mean the 85-year-olds living off Social Security. Or maybe the disabled. Or perhaps the people who try to find work with a living wage but can't.

[FreakinDJ]

12. Forget the BULLSHIT - Middle Class pays the biggest share of Taxes

and if we can pay the Lion's share of the cost to have a civilized society the Fucking Wealthy Elite can at LEAST pay their fair share as well

[dkf]

29. We pay the biggest share of social security taxes. Not federal income taxes.

And that does stick me in the craw. We got sooooo taken in that "surplus" deal.

[Hannah Bell]

111. no, they don't.

[Statistical]

15. Federal Income tax vs total taxation.

Payroll Tax
Federal Income Tax
State Income Tax
Sales Tax
Real Estate Tax
Excise Tax (gasoline, alcohol, firearms)
Import Duties/Tariffs
Telecom Tax (check your cellphone bill)
Taxes as Fees (DMV fee, city sticker, storm water assessment, gun license, etc)

If we only had a single progressive tax structure (i.e. all of the above was replaced by the omni-income tax) you might have a point. Otherwise looking at ONLY federal income tax is bullshit.

[fascisthunter]

16. 47% of who? The Wealthy?

wow...

[dkf]

32. Per the AP

Stephen Ohlemacher, Associated Press Writer, On Wednesday April 7, 2010, 5:38 pm EDT
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Tax Day is a dreaded deadline for millions, but for nearly half of U.S. households it's simply somebody else's problem.

About 47 percent will pay no federal income taxes at all for 2009. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability. That's according to projections by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research organization.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1

[fascisthunter]

39. the rich SHOULD pay more, they make more off the people in this country

get it? The rich utilize more of our commons than the poor and middle class combined. Fucking pay up is what I say. You want to defend the rich man's perspective, fine, serve to your heart's content. I say they pay up before they are forced to. People are tired of the rich man's bullshit talking points. It's nonsensical garbage that keeps being repeated for the sake of filibustering and pretending there actually is a valid reason for the rich man's greed. There isn't... and there never will be.

[dkf]

75. Hey I am in full support of the rich paying their fair share, especially

In regards to getting rid of loopholes and exemptions.

But when I look at the financial hole we are in it dismays me to see that people think that unless they are super rich, they don't need to pay. I don't see how that works out, especially as progressives advocate for more money for this and that.

[Hello_Kitty]

30. Then argue for higher wages

That "47%" figure is due to all the tax credits which are mostly subsidies to low wage employers.

[RaleighNCDUer]

81. Bullshit. EVERYBODY pays.

A certain portion of those who pay taxes get refunds amounting to close to or even more than they paid, but they DID pay. The money came out of their paychecks, was held by the government, USED by the government, until it was returned to them as refunds. The government gets interest-free loans from the taxpayers.

Oh, nhd WHY do they get these refunds? BECAUSE THEY DON'T MAKE ENOUGH TO LIVE ON. The minimum wage is 20% short of being a living wage. And THAT is for those lucky enough to be working full time - ever try living on 25 hrs a week at minimum wage?

Yeah, tell us all about those deadbeats.

Asshole.

[dkf]

82. I swear even when I made a minimum wage I still paid taxes. It's the credits that are the biggie.

In recent years, credits for low- and middle-income families have grown so much that a family of four making as much as $50,000 will owe no federal income tax for 2009, as long as there are two children younger than 17, according to a separate analysis by the consulting firm Deloitte Tax.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1

[JVS]

5. The poor can't afford to pay, the rich can.

[dkf]

9. At what point do you stop being poor and can afford to pay?

I agree that someone who can't afford to eat can't afford to pay taxes, but there are levels above that where some civicmindedness should kick in.

[valerief]

13. What's your point? What's your "limit"? nt

[Rex]

18. Ask him what he means by civicminded.

[valerief]

20. Maybe if it were spelled right. It probably means "Vote Republican". nt

[dkf]

27. Civic minded...wanting to contribute something to your country.

Or deep down inside do we all resent paying taxes period so our fair share really means I don't want to pay and I would rather someone pay instead.

[WinkyDink]

45. Do you have ANY conception of how the working poor struggle daily?

Or do you think your office-building floors and toilets clean themselves?

[dkf]

56. Are most people here considered working poor?

Because if so then yeah I can't argue with their "tax the rich" thing. But I would think the typical demographic of Democrats points to college educated middle class types as we can all afford Internet access and seem to be quite knowledgable.

[fascisthunter]

67. answer the question above...

[Rex]

73. Thanks for clearing up how you view the world.

[dkf]

86. Well am I being cynical thinking that people are using the poor to defend not wanting to pay taxes?

[Rex]

90. Who is using the poor to defend not wanting to pay taxes?

Show me who here or what article you are citing, please.

[dkf]

92. Okay follow me here...

If a middle class person making say $250,000 a year says we should only raise taxes on the rich because we can't raise taxes on the poor, aren't they using the poor to justify their not paying more taxes?

[Rex]

100. Yes, because they themselves are not poor or downtrodden.

But who is doing that is my question, did you read about someone making that much saying that or did someone do that on TVEE? I wouldn't consider someone that makes a quarter million a year middle class. I'm talking about the poor paying more then their share and the rich paying next to nothing, that is the reality we see today.

[dkf]

106. I guess because I didn't think every single one of those who are raising heck about

Taxing the Poor are part of the poor and downtrodden? I'm not sure if it's worse to assume they are or they aren't. I asked someone downstream and yikes I had to issue an apology.

Maybe things are that bad out there for DUers.

[Rex]

110. Well I read that persons post and I am right alongside them in being

single, living paycheck to paycheck and yet pay all taxes and am willing to increase taxes (even on my meager earnings) to get our country back on course. OTOH, you have BILLIONAIRES, BILLIONAIRES that refuse to pay taxes, don't want increases in taxes and pay lobbyists MILLIONS to keep it that way in Congress.

I always TRY to 'test the waters' first before jumping right in. Doesn't always work.

[dkf]

114. I'm glad you are concerned enough to pay a little more.

I am too.

[rapturedbyrobots]

113. college educated middle class types?

in 2 months i will have a ph.d. and upon graduating with 10+ years of higher education, i will make less than the average construction worker. having a college degree doesn't make you middle class. and not all of us can 'afford internet'. some of us use it at school, or at the library, or at one of the few remaining free public hot spots. your perception of the world is all kinds of wonky.

[dkf]

115. Well I would hope having a ph.d gets you out of the poor category.

What is this world coming to if you can't get out of poverty with a doctorate? I can understand a student getting Internet access at the university. But if I had to rely on my library for access I would never get on as the library is rarely open when I'm not at work.

[rapturedbyrobots]

123. well, you would be wrong

that was my point. you assume too much.

[dkf]

77. Well I did grow up on one state worker's salary.

My dad got an allowance of $20 every two weeks to pay for all our school lunches plus his own meals, plus gas, plus the pie we would bring over to my grandma's every Saturday.

But we never received food stamps or anything.

[Rex]

72. What do you say to military enlisted on foodstamps?

I think your black and white view is simplistic but sincere.

[dkf]

84. Anyone on foodstamps ought not to be paying taxes.

And having military families on foodstamps? That is just wrong.

[Rex]

88. But they do and they pay just as much for food and gas as the wealthy

that can afford a few gas stations. You wouldn't believe the large number of military on foodstamps. It is a national shame.

[dkf]

91. I agree. I don't know how you can expect people to risk their lives for a wage that won't even feed

Their families.

[Skink]

83. 20,000

exempt it for everybody so if you make 50 only 30 is taxable.

[dkf]

93. I would go for that.

[rfranklin]

6. Want to collect more tax revenue...raise salaries....

The bulk of working Americans have not realize any increase in salary for the past thirty years. If you raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hour the tax coffers would fill up.

[FreakinDJ]

11. NOT AT All the SAME

The MAJORITY of this country don't want to see Little Old Ladies cast out into the streets.

The MAJORITY of this country don't want to see the Sick and Poor Dieing in the Streets

and are WILLING to pay some amount to create a Civilized Society where we can protect our elderly, sick and poor

The Wealthy Elite think they shouldn't have to pay the cost to live in OUR Civilized Society

[dkf]

44. Well I think that is how it should be.

I just wish that It felt like people want to contribute to the welfare of others. It rarely does.

[Caretha]

121. There are all sorts of ways

to contribute to the welfare of others. May I suggest that you get involved in your own community and try donating no less than 8 hours per week for 10 weeks a year. I was the DD of a national charity for 5 years and needed all sorts of help. Getting well off citizens to volunteer their time or donate money to help was like pulling teeth. Most of my donations of time and money came from people that were making very little.

Citizenship or "civic minded" means a whole lot more than just taxes.

[baldguy]

14. So-called "services" - police, fire protection, education, infrastructure, Social Security

Are really necessities - AND THEY BENEFIT EVERYBODY.

The wealthy should be required to pay more simply because they have more. They want all the benefits of civilization, but none of the responsibilities for it - like paying their fair share of taxes.

You don't see any of them moving to Somalia, do you?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

21. The real problem is, the rich con half the middle classes into taking their side AGAINST the poor

And against their own interests.

They've created a notion that our economic system is like a perpetual lottery, and that ANYBODY can get the "winning ticket". Never mind that almost no one who isn't rich now will ever get that ticket.

[Rex]

22. They set up a news network to work against the common good

and spend billions a year to keep that large group voting republican, takes a lot to keep up the lying 24/7.

[dkf]

24. But why don't more people want to contribute toward the common good?

I've seen a few people here who think all the bush tax cuts should have been cut and if those people think we should improve services then I think they are being true to the idea of the common good.

But when so many say tax the other guy I have a hard time thinking it is more than wanting the goods but not wanting to pay the price. JFK asked what we could do for this country and with all this debt I see no willingness to contribute.

[Rex]

78. Got me, I've been a soldier and a teacher for the common good.

I think taxes are expected to be paid for by the working class and NOT the non working elite in this country. Why don't they wealthy want to contribute more since they have more then anyone else? If a person can't afford bread for their family, why would they pay taxes? How? You have to have a home and shelter to worry about paying taxes and as far as I know no wealthy person goes without either.

I think many people are completely ignorant of serving the common good, because they would have to do something beyond think about it and that describes most wealthy people I've met but very few working poor.

[dkf]

94. But above a certain level of basic necessities, don't we all need to look at paying for

Our colossal government?

I think that especially if we advocate help for the poor we should want to contribute. Why support something but be against personally funding it? Isn't that hollow support?

[Rex]

108. No, what we need to do is make the rich pay for making the govt colossal

and if they did we could get out of this crushing debt a lot faster. You seem to not understand proportionally, the working poor (Which group I am in now) pay far greater then the wealthy do. It is not only a distribution of wealth, but one of responsibility - we poor folks go off and die in wars for very little money, the rich have all their investments tied into the country via holdings in various things. If we want to be FAIR (and that is what I assume you are getting at) then the wealthy need to pony up a lot more than the poor.

Hate to say it, but the middle class is a dying bread of people.

[lonestarnot]

23. I say fuck the rich.

[dkf]

26. Why is this just a matter of the rich paying.

What do we owe our fellow citizens? Are we individually so destitute here that we don't support raising taxes to provide say food stamps? If it came down to a compromise and the average person paid an extra $10 a year and the millionaire paid $50,000 a year would that be worth it?

The words shared sacrifice can win over more than "tax the rich" IMO.

[lonestarnot]

47. Rich have been syphoning my dimes for far too long now. Tax their asses, steal it, tear it up,

crash their shit, compromise only with your fingers crossed on a lie, share sacrifice my ass, what is the opportunity cost of a dollar anyway. More to me than a rich ass.

[dkf]

61. So you don't think the services and help to the poor are worth your dime?

If you had to pay for it, do you think it is worth it?

[lonestarnot]

74. WTF are you talking about. Those are our dollars going to the poor, not richie riches.

Do you know what group overwhelmingly gives the most? If you said the poor, you would be correct.

[dkf]

89. How do you figure that?

If you are attacking the social security tax believe me I think we were scammed into that.

[WinkyDink]

50. You seem not to know the meaning of the word "sacrifice." It doesn't mean "a drop in the bucket."

[dkf]

68. I think that no one wants to pay anything.

Including those that think they are compassionate because they advocate for services for the poor that they don't want to pay for.

The whole country is infected with this, starting from the rich but going all the way down.

[Hello_Kitty]

60. Yeah, we've been hearing about the need for shared sacrifice a lot lately.

From rich people who want to gut entitlements.

[dkf]

95. Well if we all throw in our dime they will have no excuse will they?

[Hello_Kitty]

102. Oh right! That'll persuade them!

(facepalm)

[neverforget]

25. The point is that the rich have had it pretty fucking easy the last 30 years.

It's time for them to start paying for the commons by being good patriotic taxpaying Americans. They succeeded in this country and now they can give some back.

[dkf]

28. So only the successful should want to contribute to their country?

[neverforget]

33. Good grief. We all pay taxes. The rich should pay more because they have

more. Is that really hard to comprehend?

[Hello_Kitty]

34. "Successful" = bullshit RW meme.

And the non-rich contribute quite a lot to the country.

[dkf]

36. Everyone should contribute quite a lot to this country.

Well that is my point. Thank you.

[neverforget]

37. And the rich should contribute more because they have more

[Hello_Kitty]

40. Funny, but on this thread you seem to be focused on what the non-rich should be doing. eom

[dkf]

65. I think they should pay more and so should we all excluding those who can't even afford to eat.

[WinkyDink]

53. The poor first need to worry about the basics, or haven't you heard of the homeless?

[RaleighNCDUer]

87. Those who have money should contribute money -

Those who have only their labor provide that labor to those who have money. The rich have money because the poor MAKE money for them. The exec who puts feels ill-used when he puts in more than 5 hours sitting at a desk getting paid millions, gets those millions from the labor of people working 8, 10, 12 hurs a day for crap wages.

Which is REALLY contributing?

You should never have read Ayn Rand when you were 14.

[dkf]

96. There is something between being poor and being rich you know.

Lotsa space there.

[RaleighNCDUer]

103. A hell of a lot less than there was 30 years ago.

The poor are getting poorer, the rich richer, and the middle-class is being systematically destroyed. And damn few of those middle are moving up.

We are becoming a two-tiered society. An oligarchy, where 1% controls all the real wealth, the next 10% directely serve that 1%, and the remaining 89% fight over the scraps.

[WinkyDink]

51. Who are YOU to assert that the poor do not

"want to contribute to their country?"

WHO DO YOU THINK IS JOINING THE MILITARY?

[Hello_Kitty]

55. Oh but

They wouldn't have a military to join were it not for rich people so generously starting wars for them to fight in! :sarcasm:

[fascisthunter]

63. I Caught That Too

fucking incredible...

[neverforget]

71. OP is really busy defending the rich from the poor and middle class

the poor downtrodden rich who don't have anyone speaking for them in Congress or in the media. :sarcasm:

[dkf]

79. Why are we only talking about the poor?

That is such a cop out...

Is everyone on this thread poor? Have you joined the military? What do we all contribute to our country?

Do you hear all this? The rich have to pay because otherwise we raise taxes on this poor walmart cashier who lives below the poverty line? That is a strawman argument.

It's not about defending the rich, its about everyone in this country hating to pay taxes and that is our reality.

[jwirr]

31. Government paid health care is very old. In 1347 plague hit Europe.

They rapidly understood that if they were ever going to keep people safe they had to not only provide health care takers but also plague houses that people could be kept in. The rich did not enjoy paying for that either and many left their towns to avoid it. But cities and other governing bodies collected money and did what they could to stop sick people from spreading the disease. This was one event in many different cities in Europe and did not last beyond the end of the plague but it was a start.

Today we have many diseases that we work to keep under control not just for the poor but also for the rich. Disease usually does not ask to see you checking account. It hits every level of society. For that reason alone everyone has an obligation to do what they can.

[Fearless]

35. The poor can't afford to pay for ESSENTIAL services the rich can many times over. n/t

[dkf]

38. But don't you ever feel like this country lacks a sense of wanting to contribute?

Back in World War II, everyone did their part. We have lost that as a country. Now everyone wants to take it out of the other guys hide.

[Hello_Kitty]

41. WWII was paid for by war bonds and taxes on the rich.

Bush invaded Afghanistan and Iraq after he passed tax cuts. Who's profited the most from those wars? Rich people or non-rich people?

[Fearless]

43. I completely disagree...

For a number of reasons.

1. The poor do look after each other quite a bit.

2. The increased necessity of a college education has greatly and adversely affected those who cannot afford the resources to get into or go to college.

3. The poor are INCAPABLE of helping themselves get health coverage, for instance, not for lack of "(doing) their part".

4. The RICH are delusional or uncaring by and large. They believe that the poor need only pull themselves up by their bootstraps, that they're not trying hard enough. This is a falsehood. The poor of this nation works very hard to provide for themselves, their families, AND help their communities.

[Hello_Kitty]

48. Seriously. The OP needs to read Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich.

It's expensive as hell to be poor. Low income people get squeezed at every turn. Fees, fines, usurious interest rates, scams, etc.

[fascisthunter]

70. me thinks the writer of the OP is well off

and doesn't have a clue in regards to what it is like for the majority of folks in this country. I think tv shows have something to do with the misconception of what the middle class and poor endure due to those hoarding all the wealth to themselves.

[dkf]

97. Nope, not well off.

I'm okay but not rich and not poor. I'm exactly the person I'm arguing should be contributing more along with pretty much all of my friends and relatives who are also okay.

I tell them that they need to prepare to pay more taxes. I think it's what we have to do.

[dkf]

49. Are you poor? Do you want to contribute more to help others?

Hey if you are poor then that is that. But I doubt everyone here is poor yet I see very few saying we should pay more to prevent budget cuts.

[Hello_Kitty]

54. I'm poor.

I made about $10K in 2010. And guess what? I don't have kids or own a home anymore so most of the tax credits that go to the "47% who don't pay taxes" don't apply to me. I will owe taxes.

[dkf]

101. I owe you an apology.

Sigh. Sorry bout that.

Yeah I don't think it is fair how we treat single people and those without kids. It's not right.

[Hello_Kitty]

105. You don't owe me an apology but thanks anyway.

The reason for those targeted tax breaks is that they ultimately benefit rich people. Tax breaks for parents reward procreating new consumers and cannon fodder. Tax breaks to homeowners reward homebuilders and banks.

[dkf]

112. I'm not even sure what is fair anymore.

As someone with few tax breaks I do get a bit riled up and if anyone is paying their fair share and then some it is us. But I still can't help and think this country needs for someone to step it up.

[Fearless]

58. You contridict yourself.

Now you're saying that the rich on DU should be saying that the poor should be paying more? I simply don't understand your point.

The fact is that many people simply CANNOT pay more. They are already living paycheck to paycheck IF indeed they have a job.

[WinkyDink]

59. "The other guy's hide"? Is that what you call a fair and equitable tax?

[WinkyDink]

64. No. That bee is in your bonnet.

[WinkyDink]

42. No.

[devils chaplain]

46. I'd be ok with ensuring all middle class households pay some income tax if...

... we raise the estate tax rate on estates over a million dollars to oh, say, 95%. Talk about freebies!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

52. False equivalence.

[merh]

57. The rich have more to protect

they have more of things that need to be secure and that use the services.

[WinkyDink]

62. The rich aren't saying, "Cut services!" They are saying, "Cut services we rich don't need."

You DO see the difference, no?

Or do you simply want to repeat yourself?

[Fearless]

66. +10000

[Hello_Kitty]

69. Yep. And notice how the DLC Professional Class wants to cut SS but not Medicare

As Krugman said recently, they don't think they'll need SS when they retire but they don't want to be stuck with the tab for their mother-in-law's or their own pricey medical care.

[neverforget]

76. Cut services for the rich. For example, the media and Congress sure could

use some people advocating for the poor and middle classes. Congress and the media are filled with wealthy elites who only look out for themselves.

[sendero]

85. The difference is..

... the rich can afford to and the poor cannot.

[grahamhgreen]

98. No. The point is the richest 1% have 90% of the wealth - they need to pay whatever it takes to keep

The society they feast on functioning.

The parasites lose if they kill the host.

Tax them at a 90% rate - that's what the greatest generation did, duh.

[taught_me_patience]

99. Man do I agree with this post... big kandr

[grahamhgreen]

107. What is your net worth?

[EstimatedProphet]

104. No

The point is that it makes no sense to go to the poor for tax money. That's like looking for water in the desert instead of a lake.

[dkf]

116. I am beginning to see that apparently nobody considers themselves middle class anymore.

So I guess we have become a country of the poor who want services and the rich who don't want to pay for those services.

But that just says people don't want to or can't afford to pay taxes.

[muriel_volestrangler]

118. There's the big difference: the rich *don't want* to, the poor *can't afford* to

The rich, who are the people who have benefited from the increase in wealth and income of the USA over the past 20 or 30 years (the median wage has stayed about the same, allowing for inflation, over that time, although GDP has grown considerably - only the earnings of the top 20% or so have increased all that much), don't admit they've taken all the gain the country has produced, and don't feel like paying any of it back through taxes.

[TBF]

120. Few are "middle class" anymore - when 1% of the country

controls most of the wealth you have wealthy and poor.

[EstimatedProphet]

126. That's just asinine

And it's projection on your part. I didn't say or imply anything of the sort. Go troll somewhere else.

[Forkboy]

127. I'm beginning to see something, too.

[johnroshan]

117. I think you need to rephrase your argument.

Many here are needlessly attacking you. A little more detail into who you think should be paying more taxes would be welcome. I for one agree that everyone has to make a contribution through taxes.


I think the middle class already pay their taxes, as they are deducted from wages directly and they don't have enough clout to go to offshore tax havens. The rich, on the other hand fight tooth and nail to avoid paying their fair share. They hide income, lobby for lower taxes,invest in tax havens, and they have a huge array of techniques in their hands.

Both the rich and the middle class should pay taxes. I just think that the ultra-rich aren't paying their fair share.

[dkf]

124. I am just curious how people can see such a massive federal deficit, advocate for yet more spending,

And think someone else will be hit with the bill. It doesn't seem very realistic.

Maybe we are paying a fair share in the scheme of a totally inadequate revenue effort. I suspect though that "I already pay my fair share" translates to "I don't want to pay more taxes". I just wish people would be honest about it.

[EstimatedProphet]

125. No one is needlessly attacking him

The OP is a red herring in the first place. The rich should pay more taxes 1) because they have more money, and 2) because they use more of the commons. Claiming that the poor and middle class are just trying to shirk their burden, when we can just cut all the services instead and everything will be fine, is Republican propaganda. That will guarantee a third-world status for this country.

[B Calm]

119. The republicans want a smaller government, then whine their asses off when it snows!

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.