Tall flier made to stand on Spirit Airlines

[spinbaby]

I just saw this poor guy on TV this morning. 28" between seats on Spirit--I wouldn't fit and I'm not tall.

---
Flying to Fort Myers Southwest Florida International Airport (RSW) from Chicago O'Hare International Airport (ORD) on a Spirit Airlines (NK) Airbus A319 for 25-year-old Brooks Anderson became an ordeal when the six foot seven inch man could not fit into his assigned seat. Instead, he was given permission to stand during the entire two-and-a-half hour flight. Mr. Anderson will be interviewed on Good Morning America (GMA) on Friday, December 31.

The lanky Anderson told ABC News on Thursday, December 30, "I was in an aisle seat, and I clearly didn't fit into the seat at all. I couldn't even stuff myself in there." The space between economy class seats on a Spirit Airlines Airbus A319 is about 28 inches, below the typical 31 inches for other carriers.

JetBlue Airways (B6), another low fare carrier, offers 34 to 38 inches of legroom, and has 150 seats on its jets, while Spirit Airlines is able to squeeze in 178 seats, which means less legroom.



http://www.examiner.com/airlines-airport-in-national/tall-flier-made-to-stand-on-spirit-airlines

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[DrDan]

13. I once sat near a very obese individual in a 2-5-2 configuration of seats.

He is on the window side taking 2 seats.

An attendant approached him and asked if he was comfortable in those two seats - or if he would like to move to the center where he would have access to 3 seats.

It must be terrible to go through life that large.

[Name removed]

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[blueamy66]

18. But, this won't be popular, but....

the obese can change....us tall people cannot cut off our legs at our knees, ya know?

[eShirl]

38. not easily, not quickly, and not with a great % of success

but yes, it is possible

[blueamy66]

40. I agree wholeheartedly.

But I will never be able to be shorter than 5'11", which is talll for a woman.

[Name removed]

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[hlthe2b]

2. I'm sorry, but a passenger should not have the oneness on them...

to research every airline and every flight to ensure that it is physically possible for them to be seated during the flight. Passengers now have to research every damned baggage fee, every new TSA regulation and now every single possible airline, flight, and seat assignment? This is nuts. The airlines has a responsibility to accommodate the passenger in a seat that allows them to safely fly. They see the passenger at check in. Whether they are unusually tall or large (weight), the airline should have the responsibility to find them a seat that can accomodate them. Whether or not they have the right to charge someone extra who is morbidly obese may be an open question, but I do not think they have that right to do so because of someone's height which is an immutable aspect of that individual. :shrug:

[BlueCollar]

5. I disagree...

Airline seats are a commodity. Passengers are free to buy seats as they wish. This individual could have purchased more than one seat to accomodate his height, just as an obese person might do to accomodate their weight.

[hlthe2b]

9. Buying two seats won't give him leg room...

The ADA protects against discrimination towards certain immutable aspects of one's being-- that in some equate to a "disability." I suspect the courts might look upon this situation somewhat similarly.

Even if you argue that he should have been charged to occupy another type of seat, that should have been the airline's responsibility to inform him upon seeing him at check in, and knowing he was excessively tall such that he could not fit in their extremely small seats with unsually minimal leg room.

[Name removed]

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[trumad]

80. Huh?

How does that accommodate leg room?

[smokey nj]

6. Mr. smokey is 6'8" and flying is hell for him.

[DrDan]

8. why does that translate to a problem for others?

[smokey nj]

11. Where did I say that it did?

[DrDan]

14. you are correct - you didn't

[hlthe2b]

12. Related: why does someone's disabillity translate to a problem for others?

ADA says it does. I hope you aren't a physician, DrDan.

[DrDan]

17. nope - I am not

Don't disabilities under ADA have to be shown to interfer with life functions? Not sure that airline seat discomfort qualifies.

Do you have a link that shows differently?

[hlthe2b]

20. You can read the ADA statute. HIV, for instance applies as well in .

certain situations, so the definition of "disabiity" can be rather broad.

http://www.querycat.com/question/a492471716093848cec70d49134abf4b

According to the Federal law, an individual with a disability is anyone with a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits or restricts conditions, manner or duration under which an average person can perform one or more major life activities that include caring for oneself, performing manual tasks, walking, sitting, standing, seeing, hearing, speaking, breathing, and learning.



Being excessively tall in a setting where seating is required by FAA regulations, yet the person is unable to comply because they can not fit in the seat would be likely to be addressed under this statute in court challenge, which has given very wide latitude to the ADA statute in the past. As I stated repeatedly, the airlines might well be able to require him to pay for a seat with more leg room--that is up to question, but I am willing to bet the onus will be on the airlines to 1. inform him and 2. to ensure, per FAA regulations that passengers can be safely seated during the required portions of air travel and thus can not leave it up to the passenger alone

[DrDan]

24. I am not sure discomfort applies to that definition

there were seats on the plane to accomodate a person of height - they were just taken.

[hlthe2b]

27. He could not safely fit in the seat for the duration of the flight...

A person that tall squeezed in that seat with that little leg room is not merely a matter of discomfort, it would arguably not provide the protect against sudden air turbulence, but most certainly would increase his risk for blood clots, a very real and increasing risk of air flight.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, it is the responsibility of the airlines to inform the passenger of the need to change seats, any additional fee, if one is to be incurred and if none are available and thus he can not be accommodated in such a way that allows him to be seated safely throughout the flight, rather than stand (which is arguably a violation of FAA regulations), to rebook him on another flight.

[DCKit]

77. Thank you for the sane comment. nt

[RC]

58. And what is this tall man supposed to do if the plane encounter turbulence?

and he can't fit into a seat or even 2 seats? Seating is a safety thing on a airplane. That's why the required seat belts at take-off and landings.

[Pholus]

15. I guess it's part of that social equality thing.

You know, one of the defining characteristics of Democrats. We don't like to hear about people being sh*t upon because of somthing they cannot change about themselves.

[DrDan]

21. I don't think he was. He was sold a seat. He was allowed to stand

There are seats that accomodate his height - they happened to be sold.

If a person with a handicap sticker attempts to find an a handicap parking spot - and they are all taken. What is the store's obligation? Should the person be allowed to just leave their car in a parking lane or a no-parking area? They made the spots available - they just happen to be taken. Is it not the same situation?

[hlthe2b]

22. A store visit does not fall under FAA safety regulations.

[Pholus]

25. Your concern for the bottom-line is admirable. nt

[DrDan]

26. oh brother . . . .

[Pholus]

39. Just trying to see your motivation for your impassioned defense of Spirit. :) nt

[DrDan]

47. and what did you decide

[Pholus]

62. See the reply to the post where you imply that I'm making this personal.

[DrDan]

48. why do you feel the need to make this personal?

[Pholus]

61. What was personal about that? I simply "bottom lined" an entire chain of thought.

Your point is that the business made some accommodation. That it wasn't adequate for this one guy isn't their fault. Kind of like the lifeboat calculations on the Titanic. The owner of the White Star lines was completely beside himself that people didn't realize that his company had followed the LETTER OF THE LAW in how many lifeboats they had to carry.

Spirit obviously chooses seat spacing to maximize the number of passengers and hence profits. Since they can fill the seats, those passengers who have sufficient height to be inconvenienced are not a major factor unless Spirit isn't selling enough of the sardine seats. At that point in time, the seat spacing can always be changed again.

Watching your comments on this thread I concluded that you believe in the wisdom of the free market. I remember some right winger arguing that the scalping of water during Katrina for $20 a bottle was just the free market's magic. After all, it made sure a scarce resource was available over a longer time window that otherwise would have been had wastrels used it all up front. It was only the economic wisdom that made people choose whether the $20 or their thirst was more important.

It was easier to describe that entire chain through the use of the term "bottom line" which means that the airline is operating efficiently as far as the shareholders are concerned.

So exactly what was personal again?

Edit: paragraph three for grammar.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. Your posiutioin on the ADA is flawed

UFAS provides a minimum number of blue stalls. However, if that number regularly is inadequate, additional stalls must be provided. BTDT and won.

[DrDan]

76. and what is the store's obligation until new stalls that "must be provided" are, should

all blue ones be taken?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

79. Depends how fast the ADA complaint gets filed

The reality is that ADA is considered a nuisance by most commercial property owners. Document the issue properly and they lose. Its black letter law. I have had to push for that a few times.

The real issue most of the time is not quantity but enforcement. No mall rent a cop is going to be allowed to notify the police so one of those expensive citation gets written. Unless you make the call yourself when you see violations, they will go unpunished.

[lostnfound]

54. Allowing him to stand was a danger to other passengers

Like it or not, do not ask for whom the bell tolls. A 200 pound projectile in a 10g airplane crash could become a one-ton force on your head or your back if he isn't strapped in properly.

[DrDan]

75. which would be the case for anyone not strapped in during the period when no seat belts are required

which on many flights is a good portion of the time

[CreekDog]

64. to take the person's groceries to their car

that's "reasonable".

for some reason you seem to hate when ADA compels something to be done to allow the disabled to have the life everyone else has.

:wtf:

[DrDan]

74. you are 180 degrees off base my friend

[Obamanaut]

32. "Oneness" is not the same as "onus"

"The quality or state of being one; singleness or wholeness" vs "burden or responsibility"

[hlthe2b]

37. Onus... thanks (suitably embarrassed)

:blush:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

53. psst...

it's Onus rather than oneness

[hlthe2b]

56. Did you not see that someone else had already corrected me?

I appreciate it, but it is too late to edit that. I noted the error, however.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

57. I did not

sorry!

[hlthe2b]

59. No problem...

I do appreciate the correction as it is one of those words that I have confused in the past. Hopefully won't do so again, but then, ya never know! ;)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

67. I don't like to make mistakes like that either

once I am corrected I NEVER forget it! You probably won't either ! Happy New Year!:party:

[DrDan]

3. "made to stand" and "given permission to stand" are not the same

[Pholus]

4. Yes. Remember, flying is a priviledge, not a right.

And that was in complete sarcasm.

Someday soon, we'll hear about more required bailouts for these guys. I have no sympathy. Let 'em all fail and see what pops up in their place.

Till then, what they've done is cause me to seek alternate transportation modes. Takes more time, but being allowed to keep your soul makes it worthwhile.

[DrDan]

7. I have done the same

I used to fly very frequently to Atlanta. I can drive from Daytona to Atlanta in 7 hours. When I consider door-to-door time, it is not that much longer to drive and avoid the hassle of the airport, the crowds, etc.

It is a choice we are allowed to make. As was the choice to stand by that tall individual.

[MadHound]

19. Except that wasn't the choice,

The real choice was either sit and suffer excruciating pain for the flight, or get permission to stand up for the flight.

There needs to be enough room between seats for people of all heights to sit comfortably. Nobody should have to make the choice this man made.

[CreekDog]

65. they were the same in this case

because if he couldn't sit, what were the choices?

[Mopar151]

10. I'm the same height as Mr. Anderson

And I know several guys who are taller.
You know what? Somewhere at Spirit airlines, some little runt is chortling to himself about this. I've complained to the manager of a Boston Market about low-hanging signs and lights over aisleways, only to be pooh-poohed. Gotta be polite, don't wanna be an ogre, lest I set off sombody's case of Short Cop Disease:grr:

[hlthe2b]

16. You should be accomodated-- that is the issue...

Don't make it a pitting of one group against another. Height is an immutable feature. For you, having low hanging signs is a thoughtless issue and I agree. For a short person, getting to food or other items that are always put on the back of the very top shelves in supermarkets may be the issue. Both should expect reasonable accommodation.

[smokey nj]

29. Funny thing about items on high shelves, Mr. smokey is always happy to help

folks who can't reach them even though their height disadvantage isn't his problem.

[hlthe2b]

31. It would nice if more people felt this way...

Instead of adopting that Ayn Randian attitude towards others.

[Mopar151]

35. Ayn Rand IS the devil! n/t

[hlthe2b]

41. She certainly is.

or was or remains. ;)

[Mopar151]

30. I would agree

I make it a point to help out in supermarkets - it's an issue for those in wheelchairs/mobility scooters, too. My line to disarm folks in this situation, and put 'em at ease? "Don't worry about it - they put the stuff I want on the bottom shelf!"

[smokey nj]

33. Mr. smokey does the same thing when he shops.

Tall guys ROCK!

[hlthe2b]

36. ...

:thumbsup: I'm sure it is greatly appreciated.

[Pholus]

23. Well, a couple of Traveller's Thrombosis lawsuits might get them to do the right thing at least.

Sad, but that's what it comes to these days. Knowing corporate lawyers, they've probably written a clause in there somewhere that prevents them from being held liable.

[hlthe2b]

28. exactly.. not merely a matter of discomfort, but actual health hazard

[Pholus]

34. How about TRUTH IN ADVERTISING. Spirit should be honest that the $25 fee is manditory for some.

"People taller than XXX or who weigh more than YYY physically cannot be accommodated by our stingy-a**ed spacing between rows. Buy the upgrade or take another flight."

Course, as a corporation I suppose that you don't want to VOLUNTARILY give your competition a talking point so it's all okay that they don't.

[MineralMan]

44. Why didn't someone in an emergency exit row trade seats

with this tall guy? I'd have done that in a second. For that matter, didn't the flight attendant try to get someone to switch seats? This story is ridiculous.

I've swapped seats with people many times, and for many different reasons. It's not a big deal at all to me. I'd be surprised if that didn't happen if the flight attendant asked the people in the exit rows, so I doubt anyone was asked. Poor work, IMO.

[Pholus]

63. In this fee-based utopia for our airlines, Spirit CHARGED the exit row passengers more.

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Spirit_Airlines/Spirit_Airlines_Airbus_A320.php

See notes for rows 12/13 to see what I'm saying.

So I figure if you've already paid a ransom for the privileges of the seat you're in, you're probably going to want to keep it.

Also, I can imagine that there is pressure on the flight attendants to resolve the situation WITHOUT annoying the premium customers who did pay the extra fees.

[MineralMan]

68. Yes, but...

I'd still have given up my seat. Sometimes, a guy has to do what's right. Making someone stand during a flight is a safety violation. I flew on Frontier airlines this holiday. They charge $30 for the seats with more legroom. I'd gladly have given up my seat to someone who simply cannot fit in a standard seat, just to get the plane out of the gate and in the air faster.

That said, this man should probably have coughed up the extra fee for a suitable seat. Still, perhaps he had reasons for not doing so. I have given up a seat several times on flights to make someone more comfortable. It's just no big deal. I've also gotten free upgrades to better seating, and did twice on this most recent trip. The first time, they switched planes at the last minute, and my seat number was in the first class section of the new plane. Bonus. The second time, the plane was only half full and we had a short connection time at the first stop. The flight attendant moved my wife and I into row 3, which had more legroom when we told her that we had a short connection time. Nobody was sitting in those two seats.

Life sucks sometimes, and then sometimes it doesn't. Doing something good to help another person is its own reward. It's all part of the game. Playing correctly is good for everyone.

[Pholus]

70. Seems to me there would have been no problem had Spirit been upfront

about the 28" clearance placing clear limits on the body sizes of people who can use those seats.

[MineralMan]

71. I don't know that they weren't. If I were that tall, I'd certainly

have checked. In any case, I'd have switched seats in that situation. It's that simple. I've done it many times, if it made someone more comfortable who really needed the increased legroom.

The rest of the discussion is irrelevant to me. I would have solved the problem as soon as I was aware of it by switching seats. There it is. That someone didn't do that is, to me, unconscionable.

[Pholus]

72. Well, maybe we can get one of you on every flight... :)

But I see NO posted size limits on the Spirit site, despite the plane in question having 2" less seat pitch than any other aircraft in their fleet.

[BrklynLiberal]

45. Wow...What if they had hit some turbulence?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. The only reason for a 28" seat pitch is CORPORATE GREED

Let's be clear about this. It's the "see how many sardines you can pack into the can" syndrome.

I'm 5'10", and even a 31" seat pitch is difficult to endure during a long flight. I simply will not fly on any airline that has LESS. In fact, I choose to fly on United, which, even though it is inconvenient and mediocre in many respects, at least has a whole section with more leg room that you can buy your way into.

In fact, I wonder if a 28" seat pitch is even SAFE. It is difficult for me to get out of my seat at a 31" pitch. How would it be possible to evacuate a burning plane in any reasonable time with LESS distance between seats?

(If you want to find out how much room you'll have on your next flight, go to

http://www.seatguru.com

It has seating configurations and seat pitch information for every airline that you are likely to fly on.)

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

60. 28" is pretty ridiculous.

Interestingly, according to Seatguru only the A320 at Spirit uses 28" seat pitch. Their A319s have 30"-31" even though these are smaller (shorter) aircraft. This seems to be more the industry standard for coach, and even that's pretty tight. I suspect Spirit went to 28" on the 320s to scrunch in one more row of seats but the 319 is too short to make that plan work.

[petronius]

78. Interesting table - it looks like Spirit also has the 2nd largest seat pitch (36")

on some of their other aircraft. (Only JetBlue, with some 38" seats, goes bigger if I read it right.)

Thanks for the link! I'll be consulting that in the future...

[Warren Stupidity]

51. I can't even imagine at this point

the political change that would include a government re-regulation of the airline industry to end the downward spiral of assholery that is air travel today.

The regulation of people - why now we have no problem with getting porno-scanned and cattle-herded, but tell the airline companies to provide adequate seating facilities - no fucking way, not in this plutocracy.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

52. Even apart from the problem of stingy seat pitch --

How is that he could have been allowed to stand for the flight? FAA regulations require passengers to be in their seats with seat belts fastened for takeoff and landing, as well as during turbulence. Not a good situation, however you look at it.

[Warren Stupidity]

55. On the other hand he was probably the first out the door.

[petronius]

66. That's got to be illegal - I suspect there's a flight crew that's in for a serious talking to

and probably an uncomfortable visit to Spirit headquarters from the FAA.

Of course, I'm also guessing that "standing" means he stood back by the lavatory when the seat belt sign was off, and crammed himself painfully into his seat for takeoff, landing, and other set-belt-required times.

That's good to know about Spirit seats - I can just fit in seats on other carriers so I'd probably be in the same boat as this guy on Spirit. An extra $25 isn't that bad however; it seems like he preferred not to pay it. Seems to me that the only real option should have been to have him wait for a later flight when those seats were available, standing is absolutely ridiculous.

[Gormy Cuss]

69. That's "starting at" $25. No guarantee that on this particular flight that was an available upgrade

I've run into this language and never seen an upgrade fee at the minimum unless the airline was running a promotion or the plane had so few passengers that those premium seats were going begging.

I'd love to know how they explain having someone that tall standing for most of the flight was in line with safety guidelines.

[SheilaT]

73. I am 5'1.5" tall, with legs that are short

even for my height, and *I* find the normal coach pitch between seats to be awfully small. There are a LOT of tall people out there. Perhaps some kind of lawsuit is needed to get the airlines to space those seats out better.

Oh, and it may well be that by the time Mr. Anderson booked his seat, no more of the extra-leg room seats were available.

I actually haven't been on a plane in about three years now, and every day I am more and more unwilling to considering flying anywhere because of the TSA bullshit and the fact that planes are always completely full. It really used to be fun to fly, back before deregulation. No longer.