I said some nasty shit the other night and I apologize to everybody here for it.

[martymar64]

The other night, I read for the first time the report of what Michael Vick did to those poor dogs. I stayed away from the whole case for years knowing what my reaction would be.

Cruelty to innocents whether humans or animals is an extremely hot button topic for me and after reading that report, I lost my shit. I got into some very heated arguments and in the heat of my rage, I said something really ugly and wrong. I expressed gladness that as an ex-felon, Vick has lost his right to vote.

Predictably, the shit hit the fan. My statement was almost universally condemned. I was called a fascist, a racist and several other things as well and it was all downhill from there.

The next day after I had cooled down, I re-read my statement and was horrified that I said that or even thought it. If someone else had said it, I would have joined that chorus of condemnation. But it was I who said it and it made me ashamed of myself.

I returned to the post last night and replied to some of those people and apologized at great length. However, the post was old and very few saw it again after the initial shit storm.

So that is why I am posting my apology in a new OP. I am sorry for what I said. It was wrong, period.

The overall topic that the Vick case brought up was if redemption was possible for people that commit such heinous acts like Vick did. I have serious doubts about it still. Some things are and should be unforgivable. Whether they apply in his case,I don't know. Redemption is not a get-out-of-jail-free card. Otherwise, why are we still imprisoning people like Tex Watson and Bobbie Beausoleil and Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkel, all model prisoners for going on 40 years? If they were still alive, would Tim McVeigh or Mohammed Atta or John Gotti or Jeffrey Dahmer deserve redemption and a second chance? What about the nameless people inhabiting the hellholes of Guantanamo and Baghram and Abu Ghraib? Do they deserve redemption? What about child molestors, do they deserve punishment for life even after they are released from prison? Where is the line between forgivable and unforgivable. Who ultimately decides where that line is? A legal system that regularly executes innocent men and women? God, if he exists?

All that said and in the light of what I said the other night, do I deserve redemption and a second chance?

Or is what I said an unforgivable thought crime that I will never be permitted to live down, no matter what I do or say from here going forward?

I'm sure some of you out there will never forgive me and will consider me as a bigger monster than Vick. If you do, then I would like to hear why.

[blondeatlast]

1. We all make mistakes. forgiveness is a fine way to end the year. nt

[Ken Burch]

4. Edited to reflect the fact that post I was responding to has been edited

Thus making my original response incongruous.

[blondeatlast]

11. Perhaps so--I'll edit. New year, I'll end this one on a positive note. nt

[Ken Burch]

12. Happy new year to you as well.

I'd say it couldn't get any worse...but that would be delusional.

Drink hearty, if you need to!

[Ken Burch]

2. It speaks well of you that can see the wrongness of whatever you said earlier

(I don't think I saw your other post, so I'm responding without knowledge of its contents). We'd be a better world if more people could admit they were wrong about things.

Especially when those other people decide to start wars.

Thanks for starting this thread.

[martymar64]

13. Thankyou, Ken. And eveyone else.

I could not live with myself if I let my words stand as they were.

[elleng]

3. Happy NEW year, marty.

[BlueJazz]

5. I always like the saying: One action does not constitute a Universe.

If I had to take back words that I didn't mean to say, I'd spend a good part of my life Apologizing.

[SammyWinstonJack]

Bigger monster than Vick? Not possible imo.

[Ken Burch]

17. Well, actually it is:

(but you're right that MARTY isn't).

[TBF]

49. Is that Nancy Grace? lolol ... nt

[Tunkamerica]

50. That's ridiculous.

[marmar]

6. Having the ability to admit when one is wrong is one mark of an evolved person.

Forgiveness is another.


Happy New Year !!!!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

7. K&R

:hug:

[Texasgal]

8. Happy New Year Marty!

:party:

[valerief]

9. "One murder a villain, millions a hero. Numbers sanctify, my good fellow." --M. Verdoux nt

[pintobean]

10. I unrecced every Vick post without reading them

just because I saw them as litter. So. I didn't see yours beyond the subject line. I recced this post because you have guts. You've earned my respect.

[Tejas]

37. Let's hope you never serve on a jury.

[pintobean]

47. I've served on 3

and I'm due for duty again next month. They don't seem to hold my honesty against me.

[martymar64]

56. I have Jury Duty in 2 weeks.

Too bad I wasn't picked a couple of months ago for Tom Delay's trial. Same jurisdiction.

I'd love to be one to decide his sentence, or to have been the one to say "We find the Defendant Guilty"!

[RandomThoughts]

14. I would guess there are mixed metaphors in there.

As far as justice in society, it is best that can be done by concepts constructed over many years. Jury system, advocacy system, stuff like that.

The rest are mysteries that can be pondered, but not really known for sure.


On the metaphor that I think is in there, sadist did stuff to people that was really bad, in many places, people knowing that can help many people, some even that were following some of those same things, and possibly even some of those things, might be able to be helped. The thing is, what you see in one place may be telling you about some wrong happening in many other places.

However don't confuse something being seen, and who does it as the same thing. In peaceful non violent resistance it is believed that people are more good then bad, and if they can see a wrong, and what is better, they will help make the world better. So showing what people are doing wrong and right, or transparency lets the better good in most people help the world.

So the Indians that walked into the rifle stock did not hit themselves with the rifle stock. But bad tries to use Sophie's choice, to say you create your own suffering as they treat you wrong for their control.

That is actually in documented ways of torture, holding arms up until you drop them, and getting a shock if you drop them, is so it can be said you are causing it yourself. If you are beaten for not talking many say you do it to yourself, that is no moral absolute, and only what serves you best at some time, not what helps you most., by being what you think is best.

Anytime you try to do good, something will try to make it look like you are the thing doing bad.


Much of the messaging seems to be things trying to let people know what has been going on, and happening to many people for years in secret.

If someone can let you know what some cruel people have done, you can help them find a way to move away from those actions, maybe by helping them learn what it feels like to feel. Shaming is to get someone to do something by threat of public pressure, and works for some, the relight method would be to get them to feel why it is wrong themselves.

Or someone talking about people being tortured, or even spiritual things in that state, would be to help people know not to do things that cause that. And what causes it is not a good action or thought, but those that want to hurt those that try to help people.


you can see things many ways, but someone saying something could be them reporting on it, not about it being done to them.

There are inner spirit that are part of people, but there also is an outside spirit that speaks through many people, but you have to decide if that is good or bad, and much of that is what do you see and what do you learn from it.

I try to tell the same stories in many ways when seeing things like that, so people of different thoughts might understand based on how they see it. But that can cause issues, since many people have to hear something the way they believe it to understand the same message in many different concepts.

The idea of being kind to people when possible, and treating people how you would want to be treated.

[Howler]

15. Nothing to forgive martymar64.

Feeling passionate about cruelty in all its forms is virtue not a vice.
I wish more people were like you. unafraid to express themselves and willing to go toe to toe with Whomever.
You ROCK!!!!
You have a good heart,head,and spirit.
There is absolutely nothing sorry about you!:toast: :hi: :loveya: :yourock:

[closeupready]

16. It takes a mature adult to apologize and ask for forgiveness. You rock!

:hi: At the same time, please don't take DU all that seriously. I also have lost my temper at people, depending upon the topic, and sometimes, believe it or not, my own personal mood, if I'm not feeling well, etc.

Cheers, and Happy New Year! :)

[lunatica]

18. Words are nowhere close to the criminal acts you've written about

If Dahmer had only spoken the horrible crimes instead of acting them out this world would be a better place.

If thought crimes meant no second chances we'd all be in jail.

[Jamastiene]

19. Meh.

I understand your anger. No need to apologize. The things he did to those animals makes me furious too. I, too, have had thoughts about animal abusers and rapists and child molesters that would get me stigmatized and shamed to obscurity on DU. Sometimes, there are some comments made on here about such characters that make me wonder why no feelings for the victims and so much compassion for the perpetrators of such heinous acts of violence and hate. It makes no sense to me. It never will.

No need to apologize, in my book. To have an incredibly angry first reaction to such abusive actions by Vick is a healthy sign of compassion for the victims, if you ask me. It's nice to see compassion for victims every now and again on here too.

[cherokeeprogressive]

20. No apology necessary Bro. Happy New Year! Going to Sixth Street?

Happy New Year.

[martymar64]

22. Thanks CP! I needed to say it.

Happy New Year to you too.

Sixth Street? I don't know yet, I haven't decided . I have a couple of party invites but I know The Man will be out in force. If I go downtown, I'll hop on the bus, they have a Night Owl route that goes right by my house. Safer that way . . .

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. Whatever you do, be careful Friend. We all want to see you back here tomorrow. n/t

[awoke_in_2003]

21. K&R...

it is a very emotional subject. Part of me says he paid his debt as outlined by our current justice system and he should be forgiven. Part of me wants him torn up by a pack of dogs. As you know, the world isn't black and white. I am against the death penalty, but I really find it hard to justify my position in some instances. Be at peace, and have a good new year :hi:

[bluestate10]

23. I don't equate what Vick did with the murder of human beings.

Although I virulently disagree with you on that point, I also respect your right to feel that way. Anyone that takes robust debate on DU personally should not be here, IMO. I do not know whether I was a target of your dissent, and frankly, I do not care if I was, but one thing that I know is that I won't hold a grudge against you for passionately defending your views, even if I just as passionately disagree with them.

[femrap]

25. I don't think anything

Vick is called could really be bad enough....

I can't think of a word that is nasty enough to describe him.

May Karma find him on that football field.

[emilyg]

26. Amen.

[TK421]

27. Karma did find him...on that last game against the Vikings

and he was limping noticeably. Here is the quarterback in the NFL with the big red circle on him, and the strategy seems to be working

I feel the need to repeat this, since so many people here think that the entire city of Philadelphia was thrilled to have Vick on this team, but there are people here who hated this decision as much as the rest of the country...countless fans, but there it is, and for the same reasons the OP stated

Shit, I'm no fan, but then again I just like Hockey

[flvegan]

32. I know a number of lifelong Eagles fans

that immediately turned their backs on them when they signed Vick, and since he became the starter, now cheer for whomever is playing against them. I have to admit, that's pretty significant.

[TK421]

33. You would be right...me among them, as well as one of my brothers

who used to do cartwheels whenever an Eagles player scored a touchdown...the sentiment is strong around here...we never wanted Vick, never cared to have him, but there are some that are only concerned if we win. I said this before, and I'll say it again ( for what it's worth ) the Eagles are going NOWHERE this season...count on it. Look at this last game..the Eagles typically play down to a team that has a poor record and go on to play high school football against a professional football team....and lose. The Eagles do this shit every-fucking-YEAR and they never seem to learn their lesson. After the first quarter I knew they were going to lose and I didn't give a fuck

Philadelphia does NOT want Vick here, regardless of how many running plays he makes

whats the weather like down there, by the way?

[flvegan]

34. I'm a lifetime Pats fan

and if this had been Tom Brady and not Vick, I'd feel just as you, and I know many of my Patriot fan brethren would do likewise. Some things are just unforgivable.

Here in Tampa, it's a very nice 65 degrees. Clear and cool, but not breezy, and I have my windows open (that will change as the fireworks increase). A nice night for the kids to enjoy a spectacular fireworks event downtown.

[TK421]

36. It's cold here..I'm still getting over a nasty stomach flu after week 2 at

my new job as a security guard for one of the local malls ( yeah, Paul Blart..go ahead and make the joke ) I'm a mall cop dude..whoever would of thunk it? The good news ( for the public ) is that it is overnight, so I patrol an empty mall and parking lot ( as well as a TGI Fridays, Bertuccis, and several other properties ) otherwise, I think there would be a lot of dead people


edited to add: Brady is a fine quarterback, and the Pats seem to be doing well this year so I expect a Super Bowl title for them if they keep up this season...it doesn't seem to be in question

[flvegan]

41. I actually think that's a cool job.

I'm willing to bet that you deal with very few actual people on the job. I deal with idiots all day, so I might have a bit of envy.

[TK421]

48. No customers around, but we have to open up certain dock doors early

for housekeeping, bread delivery people etc...but every now and then there are certain people who pop in unexpectedly that you have to let in here. Overnight? it gets kind of lonely, actually...I'll tell you this though, I have a greater respect for what we all call mall cops ( security ) they don't just walk around looking mean and watch people...they are responsible for public safety ( spills on floors, assisting people, giving jumps to people with dead car batteries, giving directions, etc the list can go on and on and on man ) I never thought these people did that much. I guess this is just another learning experience. So far, I like it, but the shift is really..REALLY fucking with my internal clock. I get home around 9:15 in the morning off the bus, and I still grab a coffee and am awake for hours ( I can't sleep, since my body is telling me I should be up and about this time ) Oh, I'll get my sleep in sometime in the afternoon, but going in at midnight is just plain weird

[femrap]

58. Glad to hear of the limp....

I don't watch football anymore....used to be a huge fan when I lived in San Fran and Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Dwight Clark, Mike Wilson, Roger Craig, Ronny Lott, etc. were on the field. They worked as a team and worked to help the community, as well. Those were fun times.

Now, football is just a bunch of thugs...same w/ pro basketball. Never watch it anymore. I'm back to just gymnastics and figure skating. I might catch the Final 4.

I know nothing of Hockey...but I'm glad you have a sport you enjoy watching.

[earth mom]

28. I don't know what you said but if you said that Vick was a sociopathic monster

on par with Shrub and the rest of the BFEE, the corporate media whores, the bankster gangsters, pharma giants, insurance industry and most of corporate america, I would probably agree with you. Redemption means jack shit to them, so why would anyone even think they deserve forgiveness?!

Those bastards will NEVER EVER get my forgiveness. Hell would have to freeze over first.

[snagglepuss]

38. Spot on. nt

[elias7]

29. Unacceptable!

Just thought I'd apply a little suction...

I didn't read your original posts (maybe I did, not sure), but anyone who is willing to place principle over pride, question themselves, keep an open mind, and apologize when maybe out of line is a not only a good Democrat in my book, but a good egg as well. If you find yourself in Dublin, NH tonight, you are invited to stop on in to our place for a New Year's champagne...

[martymar64]

55. Thanks! A friend of Jerry is a friend of mine.

Never been to New England. They tell me it's nice. I'll take you up on that champagne another year. It'd be a too long drive there tonight from Austin, Surrounded by Texas.

Take care and Happy New Year! :)

[TK421]

30. Well you should be sorry, motherfucker !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just kidding...I have no idea what the hell you are talking about here since I wasn't around, but I'm glad you came out to apologize for it...whatever it was

[rhett o rick]

31. I am very disappointed in some of what I have read about Vick.

If Vick was not a talented football player, he would still be in jail. But let the black man out of jail so he can entertain white people on Sundays. I would think the black community would be outraged that Vick is given special treatment because the white people want their Sunday entertainment. How many black male felons are given the opportunities that Vick gets?

[Pancho Sanza]

35. Those who could truly forgive are, unfortunately, dead.

...

[Forkboy]

39. Yeah, but Vick is still a douchebag.

People tell me I can't criticize him because I eat meat, so I've decided to eat these people...

[TK421]

40. Did you enjoy them with some fava beans and a nice chianti?

[Forkboy]

45. I'm not that picky.

:)

[martymar64]

43. Go get 'em Godzilla!

[Forkboy]

57. Godzilla vs Vick?

Yeah, I'd pay that admission fee. :)

[WinkyDink]

42. FYI: The Manson killers don't deserve parole because they've ALREADY been reprieved.

They fell into the lucky zone when the CA Death Penalty law was declared unconstitutional. Then it was re-instated, but the reprieved were not placed back on the list.

Also, they murdered human beings.

[snagglepuss]

44. I never saw your previous statement. but I very much doubt that anything

you wrote warrants an apology. I am so repulsed with everything concerning that fucker that I usually limit myself to seconding posts rather than state my opinion so I can understand how you might feel if you let your feelings out.

Many who feel deeply for those who are defenseless, whether human or animal are likely to have been emotionally traumatized so reacting with anger is perfectly understandable.

Vick's supporters are very quick to forgive him. It's be interesting to know whether their belief is across the board. I seriously doubt it.

[SidDithers]

46. No apology for wishing Vick suffers a broken back or broken neck?...

For hoping he'll spend the rest of his life as a quadriplegic?

Sid

[martymar64]

54. Yeah that too.

I'm man enough to admit when I am wrong.

When you do or say something stupid, will you be a mensch and publicly admit when you are wrong?

Or are you just here to rub my nose in it and be a dick?

I guess not everybody believes in redemption after all.

[aikoaiko]

51. link to this vick report, please.

[TBF]

52. I feel the same way about abusing our most vulnerable -

and I saw a very ugly side of some folks here during the Vick discussions. Suffice it to say that I'm very glad you have a heart and are not afraid to show it. Happy New Year Marty.

[grahamhgreen]

53. I forgive you... nt

[hlthe2b]

59. I didn't see the post, but I admire your integrity in posting this thread

(edited for typo)
I am one of those that shares your instinctive passion towards the plight of those who can not fight back against human cruelty--whether they be children, elderly, un-empowered adults, or animals. I have dealt with the aftermath of animal cruelty. It hits home in a very special way and instills a determination to prevent further tragedy in a way that many, not so acquainted, can not understand. But, I know that you can. Peace and a very happy New Year to you, Martymar64.

[sabrina 1]

60. I didn't agree with you, but I understood your reaction.

I am against the death penalty eg, but sometimes my principles have been sorely tested when I read about some of the crimes committed against other human beings and I have considered how better off the world would be without people like, say, Cheney. But then I have to remind myself that I am not them and don't want to be.

I didn't have to 'forgive' you. Your horror at the story was perfectly understandable and the immediate reaction was mine too when I first read it, (couldn't and never have read all the details) but I recovered from that immediate response.

Anyhow, thanks for your thoughts and explanation.