Reply #30: Wasn't directly responding to you

[Protagoras]

just addressing some general ideas. But I'll respond to these points as best I can.

We agree about the DP and Clemency...good enough.

I'm not sure what your point is with the appeals process. Much of it is automatic...most of it is procedural. If anything, the fact that it takes so long argues against the DP in general. As for somehow denying the fact that people are in RUSH to get it done...I'd maintain that yes, they are. Not because of the appeal process...but because of the heightened awareness of the DP that this case brings to light. The appeals for Tookie weren't evaluations of his reform process..in fact most weren't a function of re-evaluating his innocents (or guilt). Now, we are FINALLY challenging some of the underlying issues and that's profoundly disturbing to some who know that if they can just get him dead most of the energy behind these challenges will, sadly evaporate. For me this isn't a discussion about Tookie...it's a discussion about reform, redemption, and the basis of our justice.

As for where his change occurred...or even how it occurred...I wonder if your statement that you aren't "overly impressed" indicates the idea that positive change is only valid under X conditions? I'm certainly not a fan of people having to be sent to jail to see the light. BUT...if they do see the light, I suppose that I kinda see that as having value. I am a Dickens fan...I cheer when Scrooge finally GETS it...I don't keep wishing him dead for being the bastard he was...I'm happy that at the end he's finally got the message and gets a chance to go on and make a difference to little Timmy (and trite as it is, it's a fundamental concept for our concepts of grace, forgiveness, justice, and morality).

When I speak of saving lives by keeping him alive I don't state that because I think a lot of hard core killers are reading his books...his books aren't primarily aimed at that population. They are aimed at children who are high risk. And his message CAN affect them. Moreover, I think that for those who do see him as having been redeemed, there is a message awaiting a period here. If I'm a total screwup and I'm facing a life in prison I may not be a real sophisticated thinker, but If I see Tookie given credit for having changed and turned over a new leaf...I might think DAMN...that shit really works? And maybe I'll try a little harder to not be a total murdering bastard...if it happens 1 more time out of 1000 we've got a meaningful statistic. On that same note...if I'm sitting around in max security...pissed at the world and feeling little to no hope and I see someone like Tookie who does appear to have turned it around get killed "by the man" despite any change...then what's that message to me? Sounds like "Fuck em cuz it don't matter what you do...they'll kill you in the end". And that's a place I suspect a lot of gangmembers and prisoners are every day...we need to find some exceptions to that message for them.

So do I think sparing Tookie's life could save lives? Yes. Not 100%, not 10% but if it's 1% we're still talking about a population of gangmembers and prisoners who now number in the MILLIONS. To me there's more good than bad to be considered there.

Again...you and I seem to totally agree on the DP...get rid of it across the board. I'm not for saving Tookie just cuz he's Tookie. I'm for saving Tookie because I don't want ANYONE to die...and in addition to that I think his case will make us face some underlying truths that we aren't discussing.

And as for punishment...I haven't found the "punishment" mindset to be all that effective with many populations. I find a variety of tactics, and an educated flexibility and willingness to listen and learn to be more important. To me the proof is in fact in the pudding. If prison is to warehouse people because "warehousing" is "punishment" then I'd say it's grossly ineffective and needs to be chucked in favor of something else. If Prison is about making us safer, changing behavior, etc...then there are better ways of doing it than one dimensional "punishment". If PUNISHMENT is our standard for justice then we're PUNISHING wrong because people keep killing/robbing/raping. Seems like that standard either needs to be re-evaluated...or enforced more effectively...why not torture them? That's GREAT punishment. Kill their Family...that's amazing PUNISHMENT...I've seen it in mafia movies...get out of line they chop off your finger. Do it again and we kill your kids...it never ends. I don't think it's the gold standard of a civilized society. You don't have to be Gandhi to see how blind this eye for an eye thing makes us. Doesn't mean it always has to be pleasant...or touchy feely...but it can be a hell of a lot smarter than it currently is.

That's the social debate I hope Tookie's case brings to light....what are our goals...and do those goals make sense? If they don't, then what could we replace them with. I'm afraid that if we kill Tookie next week this discussion simply evaporates again, like it has pretty much since we resumed killing people. I'd prefer to admit some indecision and confusion and then hash that out. We learn more that way.