Reply #34: good point....about the irgun etc.

[pelsar]

though I never really gave it much thought, as an "ex organization" those members contributed little to the stability of the state (Begin being the exception, in many social and security matters...up to Lebanon).

I accept your premis in terms of why they have not declared a state, as they will then have to declare its borders, something they cannot do yet, due to political reasons.

The assumption remains that with hope of security, of a future, the palestenians will then act responsable and accept "western values" that define that responsability....we are now entering the "twilight zone" of culture vs human nature, leadership vs "groupthink".

Will they accept their responsability as western values and states define them? or will they have a different definition. I state strongly....I do not know. I do know the arab/islam ( the combination) is different from the west in both logical thinking and responses.

I can only give examples, of actions that I do not understand yet, raise the many questions of how they define their responsability:

for instance, Egypt, a country we are at peace with recently showed on their TV a new version of the Protocols of Zion. A jordanian journalist was blacklisted for coming to Haifa for a conference on palestinians......). I'm sure I dont have to list everything as its long and disgusting. The point being, these demonaziations of me and country are not the actions of responsable governments at peace with their neighbor using western values.

(True neither jordan nor Egypt are threatening at this point, but they are dictatorships, and subsequently not stable.)

So again the impass remains one of belief. With hope and security that they will act responsable according to western style values......as that is "human nature." or is that being ethnocentric by that claiming human nature is identical to western style values.

But let me be very clear here, I am raising the question as I do not have the answer, nor is there a definitive answer. Just by bringing it up, one gets very near the line of being called a racist/bigot etc. yet, i cannot ignore that there are differences.

just an additional thought, though we may be in our legal rights to attack and dismantle a failed palestenian state that continually attacks us, that would put us in a very similar situation that we are in now. And though we may be able to say "told you so..." it will do nothing to resolve our problem, and no doubt the propaganda spin will start soon after that. Thats why i believe this has to go slow and careful, babysteps if you will, because if it goes too fast, the consequences will be much worse (but then I'm just guessing, playing a what if game....)