Regretfully, I'm just going to consider this an Obama-"supporting" site until after the convention.

[Sparkly]

After the convention, if Obama gets the nomination, the absolutism of Clinton/Evil vs Obama/Virtuous might be over with, so hopefully we could get on the same page.

After the convention, if Clinton gets the nomination, there might be a dozen people left here, but hopefully we could get on the same page.

MY page is about defeating McCain.

MY page is about getting a Democrat in the White House.

MY page is about getting SOME progress -- or at least just stopping the bleeding -- on the environment, healthcare, the Iraq Fiasco, energy, corporate welfare, reproductive rights, the Constitution, the entire takeover of the judicial system, our nation's place in the world, the complete selling out of our economy, etc. etc. etc... And there is very little difference between Clinton and Obama on any important issues.

MY favorite candidates are/were General Clark and Dennis Kucinich -- in other words, people who can't get elected, because they aren't "Politicians" in the usual sense. Give me a Kweisi Mfume, Maxine Waters, Barbara Boxer, David Brock, Michael Moore, Gloria Steinem, Mario Cuomo -- these admirable people have embraced different candidates, or no candidate, but all want a Democrat in the White House.

I think sites like DU can help us organize, and vent, and learn. Before and during the Gore/Bush campaigns, I debated on a CNN forum (anyone else remember that one?) and AOL forums populated with true morans. Husb would come in and say, "Are you typing to morons again?" I'd realize what a time-wasting exercise in frustration I was engaged in and all worked up about, and confess, "Yeah..." And sign off.

Then it was MediaWhoresOnline, Bartcop, and the Clark campaign forum. Husb still came in asking, "Are you typing to morons again?" "But these aren't morons!" He was skeptical, but dipped a toe or two in.

Then it was DU -- "Are you typing to morons again?" "These are definitely not morons!" I insisted. There was so much wit, knowledge and depth here. Very little knee-jerk automatisms, misinformation or rigidity -- well, just enough to keep it interesting -- and NO overall mob mentality. (Several opposing mobs, perhaps, and I'm sure I joined in with some of those at different times.) Certainly not a leftwing version of Freeperville, because DUers deal in facts. And FACTS are the rails that keep us on course.

How things have changed. It seems we don't need no stinkin' facts around here these days! Assert the accepted thing, and facts aren't required -- you're golden. You've heard and read all you need to, and know, just know, that's all! It's enough to be convinced in your gut -- so convinced that you're infuriated. "Here's your evidence (insert cherry-picked half-truth here)!" "Here's what matters (insert absurd distraction of the day here)!" "And if you aren't buying that, you're supporting this (insert exploitation of tragic story, shocking photograph, or other emotional appeal here)!" "We're on the side of truth, peace, justice, and all that's right; YOU are therefore on the side of lies, war, injustice, and all that's wrong!" In short, yeah -- it IS becoming the parallel of Freeperville.

It's the same brand of blind, thoughtless politics I've rejected before. It's no better than "Al Gore said he invented the internet" or "John Kerry faked his wounds" or "There's nothing complicated about supporting our troops in harm's way" or "Wesley Clark cheered the Iraq war." There's a mob mentality here that's every bit as vehement and self-assured as those who repeated such tidbits of "common wisdom" then.

In this place and time, of course, it happens to be directed against Hillary Clinton.

(Kneejerk alert: "Sparkly must be a Clinton supporter! I KNEW IT!")

It says something about the current tenor of DU that I'm not even believed when I say neither Clinton nor Obama thrill me, and either is acceptable. (Husb2Sparkly isn't believed either, although he is more likely to say he can't stand either of them.) To me, they're both politicians -- nothing more nor less -- and that's really okay. (I don't necessarily need them to be guiding lights of any sort.) We're accused of lying because the lines of combat here require that we MUST fit neatly into one camp or another. We MUST be cast as good or evil, as friends or enemies. (As neat and simplistic as an episode of Tweety's show! Or any sports event.)

Consider the possibility that some people actually ARE neutral -- enthused about both, tepid about both, cold about both -- and equally willing to vote for either. Consider the possibility that someone can come here completely neutral and sign off as a Clinton defender royally perturbed at Obama's "supporters" -- quotation marks because I think that's the intent, but not the effect. Whenever I take a break from DU, it seems worse when I come back (attribute to my perspective or the reality here).

Consider the possibility that both Clinton and Obama are politicians. Neither will change politics, and neither will continue the GOP agenda. Neither is running a squeaky clean campaign nor a crazy dirty one -- the campaigns are simply whatever is deemed likely to work best for the candidate. It's really NOT all that moralistic or emotional.

I've tried in every subtle way to try to hold this mirror up. I confess I'm a teacher, and tend to approach things didactically -- through polls, provocation, leading questions and comments (and facts, forgetting how little they can matter!) Lately, too often, I feel as I did years ago on that CNN forum and AOL -- the way I feel arguing with rightwingers. It's the same mob mentality of "truthiness" that cannot be reasoned with.

Such "debates" on DU these days are such an unproductive waste of energy among people who largely agree on issues. They seem like exercises in emotional catharsis of some sort. At best, they don't get us anywhere, and at worst, they make attaining the real goals more difficult.

I still think internet forums can help further the causes I (we) believe in. And I really believe the admins here want a forum that will generate positive results. But right now, sadly, I'm seeing a new brand of something I've been against for as long as I can remember.

Yeah, I know -- this won't make any difference, either.

I guess I'm just sayin'. :(