Reply #148: What's going on

[khashka]

>Lots of people say nasty things against every religion -- >"Christianity," (including Mormonism), Islam, etc.

Yep and I'm one of them. I think I've said probably every bad thing you can imagine. But I have also defended them (well not Mormons, I've never been in a position where defending them was necessary, but Christians, yes, Jews, yes, and way too often Muslims. I'm beginning to think that Muslims are the new Jews, the new Blacks, the new fags.)

>However, I can think of gay-affirming Christian (including Mormon), Islamic, and other religious groups.

I can think of a few. Quakers, obviously, Unitarians. A growing number of Espicopalians (Anglicans). There are some really great cool Presbyterian churches doing great work. Even a few Southern Baptist congregations (will wonders never cease?).

You claim that you know of gay-affirming religious groups. Good. Great. Who are they? I know of a - political action group, civil rights group, religious group, what shall I call them? - basically just a group of gay and lesbian and transgendered Mormons who wish to worship as they were taught and as they believe. And they are not allowed to.


>Not everyone in the religious world hates us, in fact some of our biggest boosters from the earliest days of the gay rights movement were religious people like the Quakers and American Baptists.

Quakers, who have always been a tiny minority. Unitarians. Very very few others. The Catholics? The Southern Baptists? The Methodists? (Ok that's unfair to the Methodists.)

>Lots of us have been hurt by abusive religious groups -- of this there is no doubt. But could we try to focus our anger only on those individuals or groups who are haters, and not post things about how "Mormon = moron" or "take that, Christians?"

I really truly do not understand this. We should focus on the haters, but not the people who taught them to hate us? Are you serious? Are you ill? I mean I will never say I dislike Catholics. I have many friends (and apparently 90% of my lovers) who are Catholic. So how could I discount their feelings and beliefs? And yet I abominate the Catholic church. It is anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-contraception in a world where contraception especially could bring less suffering.

I'm supposed to respect that? Are you fucking crazy? So I should be nice and meek and biddable. Just be a good little boy while those nice Christians, Jews, Muslims wreak untold havoc on the world and never say a goddamn thing about it. Or try to stop it?

>Tarring with a broad brush is exactly the sort of thing the Falwells and Robertsons of the world do to us -- let's not stoop to their level.

I don't think I do. Often, in a bad mood, I think the last Christian died on the cross. But I've been lucky to know people who actually tried to live Christ's message. They are few and far between but they are there. (There are lots of reasons why that is true.) I have friends who are devoted Muslims. I don't hold much of a brief for Islam but I have seen it work in people's lives. In quite remarkable ways. As with Hinduism ( a very complex religion worthy of study whether you are Hindu or not) and Buddhism.

But here's a question? What about my religion? It's just as true to me as a Christian's religion is to her. My religion exalts women. Exalts men. Teaches that our sexuality - gay, straight, bisexual and all the places in between - is a gift. Something to be honoured, cherished.

The problem I have with Christians (and there are many who I have no problem with but consider incredibly good people) is that they won't FUCKING leave me alone! I do not need anybody to tell me who I can fuck, I do not need anybody to tell who I can love. I do not need nor want anyone involved in my personal affairs. And this is not some abstract problem about "love" or "sex". It's very very very real. There are actual laws determing how I can make love to my partner. How I can touch him. In Texas, where I live, how many sex toys I can own before I become a felon. In my own fucking house.

And you know what those are based on - bullshit Christian morality. I don't consider all Christians to be that way. Despite myself, I have met many good people who are Christian. And they see their Christianity as having made them better people. And I agree.

But that is not the Christianity our laws are based on or our media wishes to represent. We see the worst of the worst and are told it is goodness. And many believe it. And many believe that is Christianity (I suppose it is if everyone believes it is...)


I don't feel sorry for raving and ranting against Christianity. And I won't stop. I suspect most Christians, true Christians, would agree with much of what I say . And they shouldn't stop fighting either until they get their religion back.

I try often to use the word Christianity for those who truly believe Christ's words and work hard to make them manifest, and Xtian to describe those who use Christ's name to validate whatever they damn well want.

Brian, Brian, Brian, Your are living in a secular country. Although there are very religious people there they do not dominate the airwaves, the voting booths. You just simply don't have the sort of fundamentalist bullshit that we live with constantly. When it does occur, it's usually considered quaint or strange or foolish. I know that - I lived most of my life in England and occassionally in other parts of Europe or Scandinavia or the Middle East. It's easier for you than it is for us - of course you won't believe that (who would? people are people) but when you come back you will. I'm not saying that living there makes you stupid or anything... but what seems immediate and dire to us seems an hysterical overreaction. I mean it can't be that bad, not nearly that bad! In many ways it actually is that bad.

My advice is stay an expat, but for those of us who aren't anymore or who never were... the only Christianity we have been given - and it has been driven into our heads like a nail- is one of no redemption, no salvation, but just eternal vengeance against us, forever and ever, amen. We've been told "No God does not love you, he hates you. He wants you to suffer eternal torment and he will enjoy watching it." But having gotten that message ( a pretty nasty one) why should we be oh so nice to the people who brought it? Really? We should? Well. I'm not gonna be nice to 'em. I don't believe that came from God in the first place. Looks like someone forged his signature.

I have little to do to with Christians. Because I hate Christ or Christians? No, just because I think somewhere near 90 percent of 'em aren't Christians at all.

I do not interfere in their lives. The true Christians and the pseudo-Christians (and you all know which you are). I do not want them interefing in mine.

So I shall live my life as best I know how and when they try to stop me I will say nasty things. I will fling epithets. I will use four letter words. I will be a total fucking bastard. And I won't feel sorry for it. So, Brian, try defending me. A faggot, a sadomasochist, a pagan. How many laws have me or my people used to restrict them, how many have they used to restrict me, my friends, my lovers, my children. How many times have my people beaten, bashed, killed them? How many times did the do it to us? In the name of their God. And you're surprised some of us have a problem with it?

I have no desire to harm my straight brothers and sisters. Not at all. Some of 'em are just so damn cool. Nor to I have any problem with my religious brothers and sisters - they often have really interesting and enlightening things to say, and I feel enriched by their words and their faith and the understanding they shared with me.

But I will still say terrible things about Christians or religion. I just assume most people are aware enough to know if I'm talking about them or if what I say applies to them. I guess that's trying to make it easy on myself... but anybody can disagree with me any time - publicly or privately.

Khash.