You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Reply #5: While Wounded knee can NOT be called a Battle, to call it a Massacre is also extreme [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-10 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
5. While Wounded knee can NOT be called a Battle, to call it a Massacre is also extreme
Wounded Knee became known as the Wounded Knee Massacre do to an internal Army fight between Miles Nelson (who had butchered many an Indian over the previous 30 years, his incompetence against Geronimo was legendary, but he was more popular with the supplies or goods to the army then his predecessor against Geronimo Crook, Crooks tactics had been effective but not profitable to the whiskey ring so Crook was relieved and Miles put in charge to waste more Government money) and Colonel Foysthe commander of the 7th Calvary (In the subsequent court of inquiry, Forysth was criticized in some of his tactical decision but generally vindicated in his actions at Wounded knee).

The problem with Wounded Knee was the Indian Agent refused to advice from anyone who knew Indians. He understood Force and the use of Force, and refused to even acknowledge concerns of the Native Americans. The problem started with the Arrest of Sitting Bull. The Agent demanded Sitting Bull be arrested, and under the law of that time period all the Army could do was obey the order of the Agent. The army's plan was to have Buffalo Bill go to Sitting Bull and arrest Sitting Bull. Buffalo Bill was viewed as a Friend by Sitting Bull so tensions would be minimized. The Agent rejected that plan and instead sent in "Indian Police" Dakota men who had agreed to act as a Police Force within the Reservation. The "Indian Police" arrived arrested Sitting Bull on December 15th, 1890. Upon arresting Sitting Bull the Police took Sitting bull outside where other Native American gathered in support of Sitting Bull. This lead to a struggle began between the Police officer who had Sitting Bull (Then 69 years of age) and in the struggle Sitting bull was shot and killed. After Sitting Bull was shot the US Army made its first appearance in this conflict and rode up and in a show of force ended the Struggle, but the Dakota bands left that night.

At that point the Local Band of Dakota literally ran away. It was at this point the Army actually had to act against the Dakota. 13 days later after some hard riding in the snows of a Northern Great Plains the 7th Calvary intercepted the Dakota that had run way. The 7th surrounded the Dakota and fearing the Dakota would run away again (as had the Dakota done at least once in the previous 13 days) put a tight ring around the Dakota. You had 500 Soldiers surrounding about 350 Dakota of which only 120 were men of the age to fight. The Soldiers still had their Single Shot Springfield's carbines, the Dakota having various weapons of various makes, models (anything from repeaters in the form of Winchesters to even then old Fashioned Muzzle loading Rifles). The 7th had attached to it 4 small cannons of questionable military value (Through good against unarmed and ill trained civilians, these were the infamous Hotchkiss guns, the worthlessness of the Hotchkiss guns would have been seen had Dakota been able to move about, but the Soldier surrounding them prevented any such movement providing the mass targets the Hotchkiss was good against).

Anyway that was the situation when the commander of the 7th decided it was time to obey the order of the Indian Agent to disarm the Dakota. This was December 29, 1890. The order was given and one indian (believe to be deaf) cause some problems when the soldiers made an effort to take his rifle away from him. During the Struggle the rifle went off. At that point two things seems to happen at the same time. The remaining Dakota started to fire (or return fire) with their Winchesters. Given the nature of the Winchester, several fast shots then a long time to reload, these are NOT modern box magazine rifles but tubular feed rifles, the magazine having to be re-loaded one bullet at a time. Thus the reports of 10-25 seconds of rapid fire from the Dakotas that had Winchesters. Then all you heard was the slow and steady fire of the Army's single Shot Springfield's, loading a round, firing the round, ejecting the spent round and loading a new round and repeating this action once every 10 seconds.

Now the women and Children tried to get away from the rifle fire, but its slow steady rate was deadly. The Hotchkiss Guns hit many a Dakota as they were piled up together (Killing more women and Children then Actual Warriors) but also killing more Army Soldiers then Dakotas (The real killer of the Indians was the Springfield's).

As one historian wrote of Wounded Knee, no intentions of any massacre. The previous 13 days had built up tensions on both sides. The Soldiers were tired, cold and beat. That is a bad combination when it comes to discipline. When the Fire started, it took almost an hour for the officers to get everyone to stop shooting. Several soldiers broke ranks to run after women and Children who had "Escaped" (and this movement was against orders). It was a general break down in discipline that lead to the death of 150 Dakota and 31 soldiers.

Thus Wounded knee was a debacle but was it a massacre? Native American losses were high, but most Native American caught up in the debacle survived. That is NOT normal of most Massacres. When the Paxton Boys killed 20 out of 22 native Americans, that is a Massacre, that is close to 100 % losses. You do NOT have that with Wounded Knee 150 out of 350 is high but a good bit from 100% (and in the case of the Paxton Boys the two that Survived the massacre had been outside their village when they saw the Paxton boys come to the Village and rather then run back and warm the village they hide from the Paxton boys, so of the Indians in that tribe at the time of the Massacre you had 100% kill rate).

Just a comment that Wounded knee is a debacle, and clearly is NOT a battle, but neither is it a Massacre.


More on Wounded Knee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre

More on the Paxton Boys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paxton_Boys
http://www.historycarper.com/resources/twobf3/massacre.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC