Members believe Kerry preparing for 2008 run

[Khephra]

His fight over DNC is seen as signaling continued ambition
By Hans Nichols

Many Democratic lawmakers are interpreting Sen. John Kerry’s active participation in selecting the next chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) as the strongest signal yet that the defeated presidential candidate is keeping his options open for a bid in 2008.

Last week, Kerry contacted nearly every elected member of the House Democratic leadership, and other powerful lawmakers, on behalf of Gov. Tom Vilsack of Iowa. On Monday, Vilsack issued a statement that he was no longer pursuing the chairmanship.

But Kerry’s aggressive support of Vilsack has convinced many key House Democrats that Kerry wants to install a chairman who would be in Kerry’s debt and would not attempt to dissuade the Massachusetts senator from seeking the highest office again.

Lawmakers and top House aides say that Kerry’s involvement in the DNC race is the latest of several clear signals that he does not plan to fade into the political horizon. They speculated that Kerry could depend on Vilsack’s loyalty, noting that he was on Kerry’s short list as a potential vice-presidential running mate and that Vilsack’s wife publicly campaigned for Kerry in the Iowa caucuses.

http://www.thehill.com/news/11242004/kerry.aspx

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Vilsack says he doesn't want the position

Where does that leave Kerry?

[Nicholas_J]

115. Vilsack will more than likely accept if it is offered

In every poll of those who will be voting to select a DNC chair, Vilsack takes a large majority of the vote.

[Birthmark]

2. Kerry got my vote once.

He quit. He won't get another vote from me. Sorry.

[liberalnurse]

32. Kerry can't carry the voters .....

He rode in on the coat tails of Howard Dean.....couldn't sustain the Dean magic as his message was too like *bush. He did not got for the gusto!

[Nicholas_J]

44. Sure

Dean had the shortest coat-tails in history. That was proven by the collapse of his campaig once he got rid of Joe Trippi, his overwhelmingly dismal; performance in Iowa, a state that he campaigned in for over two years, morte than three times as log as any other candidate. All that this election proved was that the performance of the media in crating the illusion of massive support for Dean was beleive Deans own campaign, without looking at the ground game. Den didnt faile because to dirty tricks ( as he was pulling most of them) but because he had far less support than he tried to suggest. In the end, Deans actual online support was no where near the 1.5 million he claimed, but appeared to be no more than 300,000. He had little support, almost none, outside of the fantasy campaign he was running. This was why it was so easy for Kerry to come from far behind and run Dean into the dust. When Dean turned around to look for his legions, the just didnt exist.

Kerry on the other hand ended up with far more support from the age group from whihc Dean gathered what small support he had. Kerry's support from the youth Democraphic was somewhere in the area of 7 to 10 million, in actual votes. Far more than Den was able to garner in the race for the nomination.
Almost 30 times as much as the total support Dean got in Democratic votes for the nomination all over the U.S.

[IndianaGreen]

45. Kerry's support was an illusion

Kerry's supporters were mostly people that thought he was Mister Electable and they would have voted for a ham sandwich if that is what it took to get rid of Bush. Sadly, a ham sandwich would have done better against Bush than Kerry did.

Gore did better in 2000 than Kerry did in 2004, and Gore would have won had he been the 2004 nominee!

[JNelson6563]

86. My experience says you are right

I was at our Dem HQ every single day through the season. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "I am an independent and I usually vote Republican but I hate Bush" I'd be pretty well off. We went through 7,000 lawn signs alone just on hatred for Bush. I often wonder what could've been done to get some enthusiasm for Kerry going, instead of just disdain for Bush. The only thing I can come up with is that maybe Kerry would have fared better if he hadn't been so supportive of some of Bush's policies. The Real Thing always does better at market than a Fabulous Fake.

Me thinks the DNC and Kerry campaing over-estimated Bush hatred in the US. By a mile.

Julie

[Nicholas_J]

114. No other candidate the Democrats had

could have done any better. From the beginning of the race all polls showed Kerry and perhaps WEsley Clark as being the only two candidates capable of getting within a few percentage points of Bush. THe best Den did in any poll when compared with Bush was 38 percent. Mosat other polls showed that if he had been candidate he trailed Bush by something in the area of 20 percentage points. Also showed the largest percentage of Democrats who would defect to vote for Bush if he had been the nominee, by a factor of 2. @0 percent of likely voters said that if Dean was the nominee that would vorte for Bush. Not good odds. All other candidates came closer, none had a statistical chance of breating Bush. Wesley Clark fell just outside of the Statistical margin but oinly by one point.

All of this sour grapes support of another candidate is just that. No evidence of any kind that there boy would have won. A lot of evidence that the results would have been total catastrophe for the Democratic Party. Dean lost for a very good reason. He was not seen as being presidential material. By millions.

[JNelson6563]

117. haha Fun to watch you scramble

and turn everything into a Dean-bashing fest.

I suggest you get out more. Maybe then you will acrue some real life experience and get a clue. I cited my experience in the real world political arena in my area, it's obvious you have no such thing. Painfully obvious.

Julie--who worked harder for Kerry than most who actually liked Kerry

[Nicholas_J]

128. I serve on a number of Democratic Party comittees locally

And am well aware of the political climate. The one thing I am painfully aware of is Howards record. The so called tough candidate has a record of caving to big business at every opportunity. Like the time he supported legislation requireing all users of bovine growth hormone in Vermont to register and a list of these companies be available to the public on request. THis legislation was written with Deans support, but as soon as Monsanto threatened to sue the state if they passed the legislation and stop selling the hormone in Vermont, Dean threated to veto the very bill that was started with his blessings. THen he held closed door meetings with Monsato to discuss changines to the legislation that they would accept. THe net result, a bill where the users of the hormone would voluntarily report that they wree using the hormone to be put on a voluntary list.

One of the largest complaints amnong Dean supporters of other candidates, was sbout the DLC and its centrist shift, but as Governor, Dean was the exemplar, and major Governor in the DLC's stable. Again as pointed out:

Some analysts, including the University of Vermont's Garrison Nelson, a veteran observer of state affairs, still consider Dean a Rockefeller Republican, but one who, like his friend Jim Jeffords, discovered that the GOP no longer provides a home for that wing of the party. "I think he learned in retrospect that the kind of Republicanism that Rockefeller represented, i.e., fiscally conservative but socially liberal, was probably dead within the Republican Party," says Nelson. Increasingly uncomfortable with the Republican right but equally repulsed by the Democratic left, Dean slowly began gravitating to the exact...

From the start, Dean navigated a triangular course between the two parties, clashing often with the Democrats over taxes and spending -- and helping to drive many liberal-left Democrats into the arms of the Progressive Party and of Representative Bernie Sanders, Congress's lone socialist. Inheriting a fiscal crisis from Snelling, Dean slashed the budget and dramatically reduced taxes. During the 1990s, Dean repeatedly unsheathed his veto pen, and he often allied with a growing contingent of conservative Blue Dog Democrats and Republicans to outmaneuver the Democratic leadership on issues such as taxes.

In his fiscal conservatism, Dean has been guided for more than a decade by a behind-the-scenes kingmaker named Harlan Sylvester, a senior executive at Salomon Smith Barney in Burlington who chairs Dean's council of economic advisers. Sylvester praises Dean for forcing through a dramatic tax cut during his first year in office, over the objections of "the left of the party wanted to soak the wealthy," Sylvester explains, leaning back in his chair in an expansive office just off Lake Champlain. "One-quarter of 1 percent of Vermonters pay 16 percent of state income taxes," he says. "That's 829 people, and a lot of them are clients of mine. Four of them moved out of state rather than pay Vermont taxes."

http://www.prospect.org/print-friendly/print/V13/13/dreyfuss-r.html

The idea that somehow, in 2004, that theelection would be anymopre of a vote for Dean rather than a vote against Kerry, has no basis. The facts that exists are that Dean would have pulled even more votes because he was running are simply not backed up by the polls from the day Dean started running. In fact polls in Vermont taken when Dean threw his hat into the ring indicated that Dean would losev the state of Vermont to George W. Bush with Dean only getting support from 33 percent of the population of Vermont and BUsh getting the rest.Hardle an overwhelming amount of support from the people he governed. Even when Kerry was considering a running mate, a poll of Vermonters indicated:

We asked a number of questions about Howard Dean. Even though he is our native son, most Vermonters do not want to see him as the Vice Presidential candidate.

"There is this passion that they want to win and unfortunately for Howard Dean, and even though there is some sentiment for a native son, I think the poll shows that Vermont voters want to be sure they can win and they don't see Dean as an asset. They see him as a liability to a John Kerry candidacy."

http://research2000.us/in_the_news/index.php


A few other statements about Dean from Vermont:


Despite unwavering backing from Vermonters like Lines, Dean clearly will lose the allegiance of many former supporters, who may decide that a sympathy vote for the former five-term governor won't help the larger goal of defeating President Bush.
**********************************************************
Lost in the national marvel that became the Dean campaign is how deeply he had divided his own constituents in Vermont, despite 10 consecutive years as governor. In a statewide poll conducted in late October, Dean registered an ominous 40 percent unfavorable rating, compared with 49 percent favorable.
***********************************************************

Forty-one percent of likely voters in that poll also said they disapproved of Dean's quest for the presidency. In June 2002, 47 percent of likely voters rated Dean's performance as governor as fair or poor.
*************************************************************
"I'm not a fan" of Dean's, said Dawn Davis, part of the breakfast crowd at the Oasis. "I don't feel he really helped the state in the last few years. When he had his little scream, that didn't surprise me at all."


http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2004/02/29/vote_comes_full_circle/

The idea that somehow Dean would have rallied more voters to the Democratic Party, in a vote for Dean, rather than a vote for Bush may be a fantasy of Dean supporters, but there is no basis for it in reality at all. Outside of his own little group of supporters, the idea just seems to be non-existant.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[freedom_to_read]

130. Oh this is rich

We lost the election, lost more seats on the Senate, are going to lose even more control of the Supreme Court.

IOW our party is in shambles. What a better time to piss all over each other about what might have been had a different candidate won the primary.

Jeezuz...

[IndianaGreen]

138. Perhaps it is because the architects of this defeat want another crack

at the nomination. Not only that, but they want to nominate someone to the right of Kerry, that despite the fact that Kerry was way too far to the right when it came to the war in Iraq, PATRIOT Act, war on terror, NAFTA, globalization, and gay rights.

[Nicholas_J]

148. I wonder how long Dean supporters

will be allowed to attempt to intimidate the majority of the party, who wertr not inspired by Dean at all, and who clearly showed him the exit sign during the primaries. PArticlarly when it reaced the point where Al Sharpton started polling higher in the later primaries.

Dean is trying the terrible tactics to force himself on a party tha6t did not want him, with threats to take his supporters elsewhere if he wasnt given the nomination.

Engage in all the personal attacks on me that you want. You are still unable to answer the true facts about Howard Dean that should be, and hopefully will be a consideration to those making the choice as to who will lead the Democratic Party over the next few years..

All that remains for Dean supporters is to deny the truth abourt their chosen messiah. YOur failure to be able to answer the critical questions about Dean, his past, his political leanings, and most important, the fact that there is almost nothing in Dean past that matches up with his 2004 campaign. Nothing. Dean is a conservative, when he was governor, he boasted of his conservatism. He showed nothing but contempt fpr anything progressive. Those arte facts, the facts are not hate, they are facts. Deans supporters fear the facts more than anything else. They refuse to face up to those facts.. The4y support a candidates based on passion, but they do not have the faintest idea of who they are supporting, and no evidence that their candidate will act in ways that are consistant with the ideals of the Democratic Party. He made a good career of opposing virtually the entire social platform of the Democratic Party, that he how wants to lead. His record indicated that he wants to lead it clearly to the right.

You have no answers but your own personal opinions. That is just not good enough to lead the Democratic Party. Passion is a waste of time. To inspire it a waste of time. Passion is nothing, Ability is. Dean doesnt have ability. Kery, and the other candidates have a record of supporting the Democratic Party's basic prinacipals. Dean has no such record, His record has been cleary in support of Republican and conservative ideology. The record is vey clear. Dean was and is further to the right than the DLC. His entire philosophy of government as Governor was further to the right than the DLC. THis is certainly not the direction to take the Democratic Party.

It seems that Deans supporters are more fuilled with hate than the supporters of any other candidate. They can give no valid policy reasons, or any indication that he has ever supported the Democratic Party or its core policies in the past. Ever. There is nothing to recommend him as someone to lead the party. He has never supported it in the past.

Even the statement that Dean inspires passion hold little water. Who does he inspire passion in. Not enough people to carry more than 5 percent of the total vote when it finally came down to nominating a candidate. Sorry. Dean inspired pure boredom in many and the nearest to passion for most Democrats that Dean ever inspired was the passion of being annoyed with such a shameless B.S. artist. Some people are inspired by rudeness a lot of noise.

[IndianaGreen]

137. To lose the election to the worst President in US history, and the dumbest

at that, says a lot about Kerry-Edwards dismal failure to win an election that was theirs to lose.

As the WSWS Editorial Board said in the following brutal analysis of the election:

Allegations of vote fraud in Ohio, Florida: Was the 2004 presidential election stolen?
By the Editorial Board
24 November 2004

The Democratic Party contrived to lose the presidential election to a man who, in addition to waging an unpopular war, alienating the vast majority of the people of the world, and presiding over the weakest four-year period of job growth since the Great Depression, is perhaps the most ignorant and intellectually limited individual to occupy the White House in nearly a century.

Bush won reelection, not because of a charismatic personality or mass support for his party and program, but because the so-called opposition party essentially defaulted. The Democratic Party campaign offered nothing that would rouse the masses of working people against the Bush administration. Kerry, married to a billionaire heiress, declared himself a capitalist and boasted of his opposition to wealth redistribution. His “jobs” program consisted of a few tax breaks to American corporations, and even this was to be subordinated to the preeminent Democratic Party demand: balancing the federal budget.

On the most critical issue in the election campaign, Kerry backed the continued US occupation of Iraq and criticized Bush more from the right—not sending enough troops, backing off from the initial assault on Fallujah last April—than from the left. Far from waging an intransigent struggle against a bankrupt and criminal administration, Kerry even banned most criticism of Bush at the Democratic National Convention which formally nominated him.

The result of this refusal to conduct any serious fight was demonstrated on November 2, when 40 to 45 percent of the population did not vote, even in an election supposedly characterized by high turnout and widespread voter interest. Tens of millions remain alienated from the electoral process.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/vote-n24.shtml

[ooglymoogly]

144. this election was fixed this election was fixed this election was fixed

the reason the ukraine's are fidgeting back and we are not is they know what it means to be under a dictatorship. we have gotten fat and complacent and have been pacified by the minestry of information (cnn and fraud news) and so do not know we are under a dictatorship. now its clear that if we try to fight back the courts will step in and clock us. so either fight like the ukrains or get out your jack boots and suck it up and start yelling sig heil.

[liberal al zib]

97. "Gore would have won had he been the 2004 nominee!"

I doubt it very much.

[digno dave]

113. I think he Gore could have pulled it off. Of course, he would have

been more tactfull in his speeches. He wouldn'a have come across so partisan if he had known he was going torun again.

[IndianaGreen]

139. and Gore wouldn't have an idiot like Donna Brazile running his campaign

The farther Gore got away from his 2000 handlers, the better he looked!

[liberal al zib]

98. "Sadly, a ham sandwich would have done better against Bush than Kerry did.

Hmmmmmmm, Hammm Sandwishhhhhh

[liberalnurse]

47. You can change your name......

but the stripes remain.

[Nicholas_J]

71. Yup

The Democratic Party must be saved from Dino's like Dean at all costs. Anyone who did so much to split the Democratic Party in his own state, and caused so much contention in the presidential campaign, can be expected to cause more losses than gains. The state party with the largest percentage of voters supporting them in any state, and the largest number of elected candidates occured during Deans leadership of the Vermont Democratic Party. IN fact, the Vermonmt Progressive Party was founded in reaction to the appearance of Dean's conservative stripe when he became Governor. Within months of Dean becoming Governor, and immediately opposing the Democratic Party in Vermont, the liberal wing of the party simply split off, formed the Progressive Party, and in the next year elected a third Party candidate to the U.S. House of Representatives, ran its own candidates for the Vermont Legislature and now has unseateed Democrats, having half of the elected third party legislators in the United States in the State of Vermont. In 2000 they took ten percent of the total vote,this being 20 percent of the total left leaning vote in the state. In 2002, their candidate for Lt Governor took 25 percent of the vote, which was 40 percent of the left leaning vote (the Democratic candidate hittling a low of 34 percent). In the Governors race, the Democratic Candidate didnt do much better. The net result in the 12 years since the liberal left to form the Progressives, is that Republicans keep winning high state office with around 40 percent of the vote. Vermont has more candidates who support Democratic Party principals, but the split that was caused by Dean's conservative practices leaves Republicans in control Dean abused liberals and progresives continually(compaing the liberals and progressives to COmmunists, just didnt sit well with them) and the rift has yet to be healed, though the person who was Deans LT Governor, Doug Racine, who also opposed Dean's conservative ties, ismking headway in this regard, as he is a liberal Democrat who remained in the party. The few Republicnas who were critical of Dean said that Dean actually gave away TOO much to big business. In the year that Dean retired from the Governership, an audit of the states funds disciveredthat Dean was secretly giving money to large corporate interests out of the state coffers. This investigation is still ongoing.

Audit raises doubts on Dean's tax incentives


As governor of Vermont, Howard Dean presided over the creation of a program that authorized $80.1 million in corporate tax credits without verifying that many of the companies had made good on promises to bring new jobs and investments to Vermont, according to a report by the state auditor's office...

Liberals in the Legislature -- including Ready, now the auditor -- vehemently opposed what they deemed corporate handouts and lambasted the mechanics of the law, which permitted companies to submit confidential applications, limiting public scrutiny of the basis for credit approvals.

"Basically, they gave away state money in secret," Dean Corren -- a former state representative, a member of the Progressive Party, and a vocal critic of the program -- said in an interview.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2003/12/27/audit_raises_doubts_on_deans_tax_incentives/

[Moloch]

79. Thank You!

I like Dean and all that he stands for, but the man is just not electable. How much money did he go through on his campaign?

Kerry barely lost the election, Dean would have been creamed.

[Nicholas_J]

125. Dean is a hustler who will say anything to anyone to get support

A few years back at a Cato INstitute luncheon, Given because he was named one of the top 5 conservatives in the U.S. by this organization he told the members of this ultraconservative organization that they shouldlike him because:

The Appeal of Howard Dean
From the September 15, 2003 issue: Why he could be Bush's more dangerous opponent.
by Stephen Moore



SEVERAL YEARS AGO an obscure Democratic governor from the politically inconsequential state of Vermont was the guest speaker at a Cato Institute lunch. His name was Howard Dean. He had been awarded one of the highest grades among all Democrats (and a better grade than at least half of the Republicans) in the annual Cato Fiscal Report Card on the Governors. We were curious about his views because we had heard that he harbored political ambitions beyond the governorship.

Dean charmed nearly everyone in the boardroom. He came across as erudite, policy savvy, and, believe it or not, a friend of free markets--at least by the standards of the Tom Daschle-Dick Gephardt axis of the Democratic party. Even when challenged on issues like environmentalism, where he favored a large centralized mass of intrusive regulations, Dean remained affable.

"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

He left--and I will never forget the nearly hypnotic reaction. The charismatic doctor had made believers of several hardened cynics. Nearly everyone agreed that we had finally found a Democrat we could work with. Since then, I've watched Dean's career with more than a little interest and we chat from time to time on the phone.


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp

This is the same Howard Dean who tried to re-invent himself as the "Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party" .

The members of the Cato Institute, founded by two of George Bush and PNAC's most ardent supporters stating they have found a Democratic they can work with.

None of the other candidates have ever been rated among this organizations select group honored for conservatism. Few Democrats have since that organization was created. Dean was rated more conservative than half of the elected Reublicans in the United States, and for several year rated by this organization as one of the top five conservative governors in the U.S.

This hardly squares with Deans attempts to run as a more liberal campaign. But the advice given by Dean to the CAto Institute is the real way to find the truth about Deans political stripes. If anyone of his supporters dare ignore Deans own campaign myth, and looks directly at the record. What programs he cut, who's taxes he cut, who's taxes he raised,how much state money he gave to large corporations. Ignore the candidates campaign rhetoric, look at what he actually did, how often he recommended large cuts to social programs to the poor, the disabled, the elderly, the blind, the medieval conditions that his cuts created in Vermonts State mental hospital, The fact that his extemely poor support for the Vermont State University System resulted in that system falling below Mississippi in the ratings for quality education. All in order to pass tax cuts that largely benefited the rich:

In Dean’s most recent tax cut, the wealthiest 1% of Vermonters, (less than 3,000 people) received 27% of the money. The wealthiest 9% got 57%. Most Vermonters got little: about $30 or $40. We would have been better off if the money had been invested in our colleges, our young people, state police, local roads or lowering the cost of prescription drugs.

Now, having cut revenues, Dean is cutting the budget. Cutting back on programs like those for people with disabilities and mental health needs, local roads, public health and safety. He won’t consider new revenue sources, says any consideration of the income tax is off the table and refuses to use any of the “rainy day” funds - taxpayer money set aside specifically for this kind of budget shortfall. So, the same families dealing with layoffs, pay cuts and hard times are bearing the burden of a deficit caused, in part, by tax cuts that benefited the wealthy.

http://www.progressiveparty.org/news/view/?id=19

Deans tax policy as Govenror is onr of the things that endeared him to Cato, which is a notorius anti-tax organization, which beleives in the pure trickle down theory. There was little differce between the tax policy that Dean actually practices as Governor of Vermont, and the tax policy of George W. Bush as president.

One of the primary reasons for Dean losing Iowa, was Dick Gepharts simple publication of articles that were written while Dean was govenrnor, pointing out the number of times he attempted to cut social programs that benefited the elderly and others who live on limited income. The fact that Gephardt reverald that ther was not a single year that Dean did not send a budget to the Vermont Legislature recommending large cuts in social programs, in order to give more tax cuts, nad the fights that the Democratic Party and the Progressive Party had to go throug to block Dean's attempts to make these cuts. Once even a small amount of Deans record as Governor was revealed, and the fact that it did not square with Deans rtesidential campaign, his campaign went south very quickly. He could run, but he could not hide, from his many attacks on social justice, and on those candidates to who the needs of people, not the need for a pretty balance sheet, are the first priority. While Dean could give a good speech about social justice, whenever he had to make a choice between helping the needy, or giving tax breaks to the well off in the belief that giving to the rich will result in a trickle down to the poor, Dean always chose the conservative, trickle down ideal.

Dean may really be well meaning, but his methods were rather ineffective in creating an environment that minimized the suffering of those who needed the most, while trusting that the wealthy would do the right thing and trickle down those tax cuts. The last four years of supply side, trickle down, give the rich tax breaks because they are the engine of job creation economics, has not worked. This philosophy has created more poverty, a larger divide between the rich and the poor and a tepid economy. This is the economic philosophy that Dean lived by when he had the power to do otherwise. And he still clings to that fiscally conservative policy. The Democraticd Party favors fiscal responsibility, which is something entirely different. Tax fairness, to raise revenues, not cuts to social programs, is the Democratic Party's platform for balancing budgets. This was never Howard Deans philosophy, and certainly never his practice.

As a leading Vermont Democrat Pointed out in 1998, long before Dean aspired to the presidency:

Angering Democrats

Dean prides himself on his penny-pinching. Every year, it seems, he threatens to veto the budget if it raises the income tax or rises higher than inflation. Every year, the Legislature caves in to his demands.

This strategy leading by veto threat maddens liberal House Democrats, whom Dean often treats like unruly children.

In 1995, after Dean made cuts in programs for low-income Vermonters and Vermonters with disabilities, House Speaker Michael Obuchowski lashed out. "There's a lack of leadership and a lack of vision at the highest levels of the state of Vermont," Obuchowski, D-Bellows Falls, said at the time. "And I mean Howard Dean."

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/specialnews/dean/11.htm

[Capn Sunshine]

102. It's important to remember Kerry had ZERO support among the young

until Dean dropped out.

If you don't see ABB and Deans support writ large as "Kerry support among the youth" well, that's certainly endemic of your entire intellectually bereft thesis which you keep stating as fact.

But that's a common condition among axe grinders.
I've never put anyone on ignore here, but this intellectual pollution of yours is really unnecessary to any discussion.

Don't you have some music to download?

[JohnKleeb]

106. that's not true

Kerry won about young voters in Iowa I believe. BTW most people my age I know prefered Kerry to Dean, maybe it was different where you live but not every young voter was head over heels for Dean. I actually recall a poll that had more young people favoring Kerry to Dean, and this was when Dean was at his peak. I dont want to hear that Kerry only got his support when Dean dropped out because thats not true and you know it.

[Fabio]

124. He won every county

with a college campus in the Iowa caucuses.

[eagler]

121. As long as the right wing controls the media, blackbox voting,

and the minds of the christian community there is very little chance that anyone else can beat a right winger. Kerry is a very good man who knows exactly what this country needs. More than anything we need a new well written Fairness Doctrine. Without it, we could run Jesus himself and the right could stifle his message and destroy his reputation.

[liberal al zib]

96. Yes

Howard Dean is the best guy to run in 2008

[mom cat]

I'm watching him closely to see if he will do more than drop veiled hints

that he might accecpt the presidency if it was conclusively proven that he won. The more time that passes, the more the apparent legitimacy of the second term for * will grow. If Kerry allows this to slip away, I will find it very hard to mobilize any effort for him in the future.

The recount effort must go on for a lot of good reasons. John Kerry the person is not at the top of my list of reasons.

[Birthmark]

52. I agree 100%

[mom cat]

50. I'm watching him closely to see if he will do more than drop veiled hints

that he might accecpt the presidency if it was conclusively proven that he won. The more time that passes, the more the apparent legitimacy of the second term for * will grow. If Kerry allows this to slip away, I will find it very hard to mobilize any effort for him in the future.

The recount effort must go on for a lot of good reasons. John Kerry the person is not at the top of my list of reasons.

[Piperay]

81. Same here

I am done with him.

[Kitsune]

3. Ugh.

No more Kerry, please.

[IndianaGreen]

13. Double Ugh

Kerry wants to join Pat Buchanan, Lyndon LaRouche, and Harold Stassen in the League of Perennial Presidential Candidates.

[pokercat999]

84. agreed

What I couldn't figure out during the campaign was, where was the Kerry of 1996 or 1972, Kerry was my favorite for a long time....no more.

[livinbella]

111. Kerry did not fight to the end this time. Forget about 2008!!!

[Stephanie]

4. Kerry can forget it unless he's going to fight for my right to vote

And Kerry can send me my money back if he's going to hoard it for 2008. Kerry's starting to piss me off.

[Niche]

61. Remember the Kerry commisson? Remember Nam...

--i mean there's a fucked up group of radicals taking over the country. Kerry at least likes the fight... i'm in denial aren't i? :spank: i'm really... ahhh :cry:

[googly]

74. I believe excess campaign cash becomes property of te candidate

to spend as he/she wishes, and the $45 million is a good chunk of change for Kerry.

[Democat]

5. Kerry lost to the worst president in recent history - he can never win!

Sorry to be brutaly honest, but Kerry will never be president unless someone worse than Bush runs and that is very unlikely.

[politicasista]

6. You guys are mean.

:evilfrown: I guess if he got elected, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[private_ryan]

39. the fact that we are means that he lost

close enough doesn't do it...and it wasn't even close. He lost because of his ineptitude and Bush is now making decisions.

That's all that matters and that's all I need to know.

[candy331]

8. Seems McCain is running in 08 so Kerry can kiss his ambition to

be President out the window. Seems he better fight now to go in the WH in 05 to run as incumbent in 08 to even have a shot at winning.

[pokercat999]

85. McCain the ass kisser would be worse than bush

In the late 60's and early 70's black people would say of obvious racists "at least you know where he stands" that's Bush/McCain today. We know Bush is an ultra right wing thug, McCain wants to hide behind some "centrist" bullcrap and pretend he's a "man of the people", when he's really only a coward and ass kisser.

[maryallen]

134. He didn't lose. It was FRAUD.

I really don't understand what is so hard to grasp about this concept:
The election was STOLEN!!!

FIFTY-SEVEN THOUSAND complaints, according to the GAO, not to mention the reputable studies by college professors, statisticians, and amateur accountants all attest to this. Throw in the vast volume of knowledge concerning BBV, and it's a no-brainer: THEFT ... pure and simple.

That said, Kerry was not my first choice; Clark was, with Dean a close second, but I, like everyone else, would have voted for the proverbial "ham sandwich," if it would get Bush out of office.

It's too soon to think about '08. Kerry should have come out swinging the night of Nov. 2, but he didn't. That tells me all I need to know. I'm with the fellow who posted that he wanted a fighter, a scrapper, a brawler ... anyone who will take the system on, because that's what it will take.

[alexisfree]

7. I said it before that loser is done! He is flipflopping on running or not

[whistle]

9. THK does not want her husband to run any more, the man would be 68...

...and she is older than him. No way, plus John Kerry did not do what he said he would do, he did not fight for his victory. Kerry conceded to Bush way too quickly on Florida, Ohio and other marginal states. It seems that he is allowing others to fight on his behalf. Where is the DNC support for recounts, investigations, it just doesn't make sense that democrats will rise up now, to support Kerry in another run. I won't, I'll go with a third party democrat/liberal if there ever is another honest election in my lifetime!

[David Dunham]

10. Wrong. Kerry would be 64 in 2008, 5 years younger than Reagan in 80

[IndianaGreen]

15. Pass the Arnold Amendment and then nominate Teresa Heinz Kerry

She will be a far better candidate than her nuanced-handicapped hubby.

[liberalnurse]

33. Big Deal....

Send his a bithday cake or something sweet.

[ginnyinWI]

54. And he is younger than John McCain.

[Chicago Democrat]

11. Kerry, In case you didn't get the memo, you won and it was

stolen from you.

Stupid John, you don't really want it that bad do you?

[MadMichDem]

12. Turn on Countdown. The GAO is

investigating the election and Keith is doing a story on it. The house DEMOCRATS asked for the investigation. Kerry HAS NOT quit, he's got people in Ohio and Florida. Geez some of you people would bitch if hung with a new rope.

[DoNotRefill]

14. Has there EVER been....

a nominee that lost the election and got re-nominated?

I'd think one crack at the apple would be enough.

[MadMichDem]

17. Nixon comes to mind. He lost to JFK the first time. eom

[IndianaGreen]

19. Kerry could be the new Wm Jennings Bryant

a man so much in love with his own voice that he wouldn't shut up!

[Capn Sunshine]

103. OR Alf Landon

[whistle]

20. In the democratic party, I think Adlai Stevenson ran against...

...Ike Eisenhower twice. Stevenson was a great democrat and an even greater American.

<link> http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/adlaistevenson.html

[IndianaGreen]

22. Stevenson was also an intellectual and a very decent and honest man

Who says the American voters always choose wisely?

[reality based]

26. Presidents Who Lost Their First Presidential Election Include

Thomas Jefferson
Andrew Jackson
Richard Nixon

Nominees who lost more than once include:
Henry Clay (Whig)
William Jennings Bryan (D)
Adlai Stevenson (D)

In a special category:
Grover Cleveland, who was elected President, lost re-election, then won the third time

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

42. Nixon, Adlai Stevenson, William Jennings Bryant to name a few

Heck Teddy Roosevelt ran in 1912 as the Bull Moose party candidate. Grover Cleveland ran in 1892 and won. This after originally being elected in 1884 and losing reelection in 1888 to Benjamin Harrison.

What cracks me up about the cry babies bashing Kerry on this page is I doubt they will cut off there nose to spite their face and vote Repug if Kerry gets the nomination in 2008. They probably won't vote for him in the primaries or state caucuses. But as it stands I doubt they did in 2004 either.

[Yupster]

78. Stevenson in 56

After he lost in 52.

Grover Cleveland was 22nd Prez. He lost his reelection though he got more popular votes.

Then he won again to be the only prez with two non-0consecutive terms.

Did Dewey run in 44 and 48?

[bluedonkey]

16. I believe

Mr Kerry is not in touch with reality if he thinks he can get elected in 08.He turned his back on the people who supported him and worked their buns off for him!
I'm very disappointed in him,the way he just gave up and conceded so fast and since then not a word to the thousands of supporters.!
I feel betrayed!

[Leilani]

18. From the article: "He not only lost, he lost badly"

says a member of the Black Caucus.

I agree with that member.

Kerry is still out of touch...he didn't know how to run a campaign, he didn't know how to fight back, & he didn't know ahead of time that all votes needed to be counted.

The End

[IndianaGreen]

21. Can you imagine Kerry running against Hillary...

Someone ought to tell Kerry that many of those that voted for him were really voting to get rid of Bush.

[Leilani]

23. This was a "Hold Your Nose Election"

Looking at internals of current polls on Bush, people are STILL against most of his policies.

Kerry could not get the job done.

[IStriker]

151. Aren't most of them "hold your nose" elections?

It seems to me the best you ever get is the lesser of two evils. PLEASE say Kerry will not run again. I'm sorry but he really was a "hold your nose" and try not to gag candidate. I wonder what Dean will do in '08?

[liberalnurse]

48. Absolutely!

[Democat]

24. I agree with that quote too - Kerry should have beat Bush soundly!

The Kerry campaign was a disaster.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

25. Not going to happen.

He'll never get past the first few months of the primaries if he does. Just my humble opinion.

[reality based]

28. It Depends

On who runs against him, on the condition of the country, on whether he can and will make a case that he was robbed.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

30. If I were a bookie, I would have to make it an extremely long shot.

[Leilani]

27. With John Kerry I always had the feeling he wanted to be Prez

but didn't know why.

He still wants to be Prez. Maybe he should figure out why he lost before he runs again.

[Laelth]

29. This is nuts.

“He not only lost, he lost badly,” said a key member of the Congressional Black Caucus who did not want to be identified. “Is anyone going to listen to him after the way he ran his own campaign?”

This person has got to be kidding. The election looked pretty close to me. Besides, "John Kerry" is a household name in America now. If he runs again against someone not-as-well known, we start with a major advantage. Is there another Democrat available who's as well-known as Kerry? And when *'s policies hurt the country, as predicted, Kerry can say "I told you so."

Kerry probably won this election. We'd like to hear from him, yes. We'd like him to fight to see that every vote is counted, yes. But let's just give him the benefit of the doubt for a little longer, why not? Before the debates I freely admit that I was an ABB voter. After the debates, I was sold. Kerry rocks. I'm not giving up on him until I'm certain he's given up on us ... and I'm not sure of that yet.



-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--bad pic link repaired.

[high density]

73. Kerry 08 brings back:

The GOP flip flop definition which is already well established
The GOP distortions of his senate record (taxes, the war, etc), also well established thanks to Shrum, et al.
Swift Vets
Kerry's senate-speak

I have no problem with Kerry, but I think that Kerry got all of the votes he was ever going to get on November 2nd and then some thanks to "anybody but Bush."

[Laelth]

75. Perhaps you're right.

On the other hand, consider this. The right-wing machine is going to smear whomever we nominate. The smear against Kerry will be old news and less effective. Also consider that the right-wing smear machine paints all democrats as "weak, wishy-washy, and wimpy." If we abandon our standard-bearer, we prove them right. I think we have to stand behind John Kerry for better or for worse just to prove we have a backbone. I firmly believe that we nominated the right man, and I think he probably won. Even if he didn't, and * actually won the election, we sacrifice our integrity if we stab Kerry in the back now. We must support Kerry. We have cast our lot, and we are right. It won't take much for the American people to come around to our position, but if we nominate someone new, then we're admitting that we were wrong and that we made a mistake.

We didn't.

-Laelth

[bahrbearian]

31. "He can run but he can't hide"

[Emops]

34. Kerry needs to learn that he's in a better position than Al Gore was

after his "defeat" in 2000. Gore turned into a pitbull, but had to preach to the choir. Kerry, on the other hand, still has a very safe Senate seat.

If he grows a pair, he could hammer the living crap out of Bush and let it be known that even though the Dems are in the minority, they won't be going down without a fight. Kerry should stay far away from the presidential campaign trail.

Of course, he will have an "I-told-you-so" factor going for him, but I think every Democrat will have that, too.

[ginnyinWI]

58. He'll need to do a few things first,

like sue that RAT's ass John O'Neill--once and for all get that guy off his tail. It would show America that he's got what it takes to fight for his honor. I know he wanted to do it in August, but his handlers talked him out of it. If I were him I'd trust my own instincts more--he may realize this already.
He also has to, in the next few years, maintain a strong leadership role in the party, and learn to simplify his message for mass consumption.

And as stated above, it all depends on who else is out there competing for the Dem nomination.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

35. No Kerry

One shot. That's what you get, IMO.

DTH

[IndianaGreen]

53. If you want a war hero

nominate Wes Clark! At least you don't have veterans attacking Clark for being unpatriotic.

[lies and propaganda]

36. FUCK him.

I want to throw up that I voted for him.

I now feel a hundred percent that he screwed Howard Dean in the primaries with the very same Diebold machines that he laid down to this time. HE is George Bush, THEY are the Skull and Bones, WE dont fucking matter.
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/11/303703.shtml

Your vote for american idol means more in this country.
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:

[Chicago Democrat]

66. Pukemania!

:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:

[iamjoy]

37. Fool Us Once....

I mean, not to bash Kerry, but he cruised to such an easy victory in the primary because people thought he was the man to beat Bush.

Without bashing him, there are several reasons why Kerry was a poor candidate:

1) He was too nuanced and complex, making it easy for the Republicans to paint him as a flip flopper (and for the charge to stick)

2) He was a senator. No leadership experience and twenty years of votes to pick apart.

3) As a senator, he wasn't the big crusader - didn't introduce any earth shattering, attention grabbing bills. This isn't to say he didn't do good things (exposing BCCI corruption; helping normalize relations w/Vietnam) but they were shortbread cookies, not baked alaska.

4) He was from Massachusetts. Too easy to paint as a Liberal (and in a bad way). Sure JFK was from Massachusetts, but the country had different demographics then.

5) No charisma. He just didn't connect with people personally. He seemed remote. I mean, for those of us lucky enough to see him up close, WOW he was awesome. But on t.v. - come on admit it: BO-RING

[tibbir]

38. I only supported Kerry because it looked like he had the best chance

to beat Bush. I was never impressed with the way he won his campaign and he gave up before the votes were even in. No way.

[Ima]

40. he would

only make a fool of himself if he ran again.

I can't get over the people, that think Kerry is working on something big. And that he is going to pull the rabbit out of the hat, in regards to this election.


Almost makes you wonder what their motive is. IE: "don't do anything, Kerry has a secret plan."

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

41. I'll vote for whoever is our nominee. Period.

I'm not depriving y'all of your freedom of speech (for as long as we have it here in this country...which may not be for long, if * has his way), but you will not see me trashing Kerry here.

[Democat]

49. Don't worry Ima, because "Kerry is a strong closer!"

He's still going to win! We just have to wait for the "backlash against the Swift Boat Liars" and we'll win in a "landslide". :eyes:

[OutsourceBush]

43. Unless he moves to the deep south and learns how to ride a horse

he doesn't stand any more of a chance in 2008 than he did this year. NEXT!

[ginnyinWI]

62. he does know how to ride a horse

just thought I'd mention it.

[OutsourceBush]

69. the only horse I saw him riding was the the one that looked like a

surf board with a sail on it. :-)

The people want a president with body odor, one who steps in horse crap and doesn't wash it off his boots. One who wears the same shirt 5 days in a row and sweats. One who wears a big cowboy hat and a big red-neck belt buckle. Maybe even spit some tobacco. Kerry played to the limp-wristed Dem stereotype. Time for someone else who can get more votes than the chimp creatures that the repukes are putting out there. Kerry needs to look in the mirror for the next 4 years and say, "I AM AN IDIOT, I LOST TO A CHIMP"

NEXT

[ally_sc]

46. i do not know if i could go there...

...anymore. Eventhough Kerry did not lose by much it still was a loss. And a very problematic and unfortunate one at that!

[PrisonerLazy8]

51. Is it decided we are going to give our votes to the Dems next time?

Regardless of how they handle things between now and 2008? I recall many discussions and agreements that third party voting would be a valid recourse in 2008 if the Dems blew it in 2004. Anyone else remember those threads here?

[Zen Democrat]

56. This is the "Democratic" Underground, isn't it?

[Chicago Democrat]

67. I for one am small "d" Democrat....

The Party of Wilson
The Party of Roosevelt


Our martyrs: John and Bobby Kennedy killed by G.H.W. Bush and the CIA

Now the "military industrial complex" is in charge.

[brook]

55. Sorry...

Kerry lost. Gore lost. Stolen election(s) or not - the end result is we have the worst damned people in charge of this country in all my 70 + years. And a good part of the blame has to be their incompetence, lack of leadership ability or acquiencence to political expediency.

I don't have the answers - or the crystal ball - but we need to start thinking less emotionally and more critically about how we can successfully turn things around. The neocons did it one school board member at a time, one city council person at a time, one dogcatcher at a time.

I am a lifelong Democrat. I'm 71 years old. I'm looking for a leader who has the balls to be a Democrat.. I march, I email,I donate, I annoy people with my opinions. Like so many others, under the present administration, I risk my job in speaking up. I want someone who has the same heart. Screw the sissies.

[IndianaGreen]

59. "I'm looking for a leader who has the balls to be a Democrat."

If by that you mean a Democrat like FDR, Truman, or even Stevenson, then you have my full support. If by Democrat you mean the sleaze bags whose only core value is to say and do whatever it takes to pander to their audience, then count me out.

We have too much reliance on polls and focus groups. They are great to fine tune a message, but they are terrible tools to determine what our message ought to be.

[brook]

72. Naturally...

Given my age and beliefs, another FDR, a Truman - a Kennedy , would rekindle hope for me at least -that this country was not lost. That we could find our way back to the path. You know, I think I've mentioned it else where - half of my antecedents landed here in the 1600's - the other half in 1900. They came for a better life. With each generation, the opportunity expanded. Some made the most of it. Other's frittered it away. The point is, the opportunity was there.With each breath of this Administration, the opportunity fades.

I don't see that hunger or fire in people today. I don't see the true liberal spirit . I see a lot of self-centered, ignorant, complacent individuals with lackluster intellects who neither know nor appreciate the rights given to them by the Constitution. They can't seem to be able to tell the difference between it and Charmin.

I don't have the answers - but I hope we're incubating them here at DU. One thought - - one interaction- one insight at a time.

edited for spelling while sleepy.

[lastliberalintexas]

107. I'd vote for you brook

Those were darn fine posts! Our party "leaders" should be listening to you, rather than the Froms, Brazilles, Shrums, and Cahills of the world.

[brook]

159. You're sweet to say that.

Thank you. BTW, my children were born in Texas. I was a stew for AA and married (then divorced) a SMU guy. I hope you're not getting hit badly with the lousey weather. Have a good T-Day!

[oldlady]

57. Maybe he should ask/recommend McCain....again n/t

[Niche]

63. 2008? Fight now! Dems will disappear by 2008...

[eowyn_of_rohan]

60. WHO CARES ABOUT 2008? Not I -nt

[Swamp Rat]

64. Kerry has until January

If he doesn't start screaming COUNT THE VOTES and VOTER FRAUD... well, I'll reserve my statements until then. :grr:

[Nicholas_J]

150. Well he already has come out in support of the recounyts in Ohio

And it is not seemly for the candidate to come out to try to get a recount unlees the voters express a great deal of outrage at the election results. It is up to the voters to demand that any fraud be examined. When it is the candidte himself, it simply smacks too much of sore loser. Gore went through a lot of attacks on that ground when he did not accept thee reuslts in 2000.

I have a lot more respect for the damned Ukranians who are out in the streets of Kiev and the other large cities of the Ukraine. In the tens of thousands, it not hundreds of thousands at this point.

You want Kerry to do something, get your own damned asses out onto the streets in the tens of thousands to prrotest voter fraud, so that Kerry is aware that he has some real support from the democratic voters, and when you will see Kerry do something.

Do something, open, and publically, rather than sit and whine on the Internet.

[Chicago Democrat]

65. 2008- A MILLION YEARS AWAY......yawn

Kerry... whose he?

[Emillereid]

68. I worked my butt off for this guy and gave him my money, but he's

got another think coming if he's going to get my support after staging such a poor campaign -- I said all along I thought this election was his to lose -- and he did just about everything to make that a reality. He needed to clearly articulate a distinct and compelling vision for the country; one that included a decisive and consistent position on the most compelling moral issue of our time -- namely Iraq. Unfortunately he could never quite figure out how to come down on the right side of that divide.

He needed to lead from his heart and not listen to mealy mouthed DLC wimps too afraid to even have him come out swinging against the lies and distortions of the swift boat assholes -- until it was too late. An independent once told me he could never vote for Kerry because he was a wuss -- who would not or could not even stand up for himself -- and figured if he couldn't do that, he wouldn't stand up for America.

And now when it really counts, he wouldn't even stay in the race until all the votes were counted like he promised. There was no rush. He didn't need to concede -- there was plenty of time. But he and the rest of the DNC were and are afraid -- of looking stupid; of stepping out. They're little more than bureaucrats. I don't think there's a real leader in the bunch. They're as rudderless as the muddled middle they are always pursuing. Just for one second think about what the Bushits would have done on November 3rd if they were on the other side. You got it -- they'd been screaming 'election fraud' loud enough to get a damn recount in every state in the Union!

No, No, NO! I won't ride that Kerry donkey again.

I wish we could resurrect a real leader with a real backbone like Robert Kennedy (the man he grew into at the end of his life) -- one who has the strength of character to lead; to offer an authentic vision of the future!

Actually I wished to hell the new Gore who had finally shaken off his handlers and had found his voice would have run. If we ever have a fair election again, I think Gore ought to have a go at it. He deserves another run! And Dean should be the DNC chair and Gore's VP!

[agincourt]

70. If we don't get two silver bullets,

to fire into Karl Rove's nuts, plus some separation of Xtian church and state, it doesn't matter. We could run a Lincoln-JFK ticket and still lose. It was media collusion, diebold, smear campaigns, and the xtian fetus cult that put whistle-ass in power again.

[Porcupine]

76. Will he concede to election fraud again? Why bother.

He pretends to run, the GOP pretends to count all the votes.

Democracy is dead in AmeriKa.

[talk hard]

77. Kerry gave it his best shot.

Kerry executed a well thought-out campaign, although I didn't always agree with his strategy. He got more votes than Gore.

And let's be honest about Howard Dean. His campaign imploded and he did that all by himself. Besides, some of his followers were so obnoxious and it reflected badly on him. They weren't particularly inclusive in their message. Dean was, but his followers glommed on to him as if their life depended on it.

This isn't Kerry's fault. This is a Diebold coup d'etat. No doubt about that. And if they don't straighten this BS out, there's no point in even holding elections in the future.

I wonder how loyal some of you are in your personal lives and if you'd abandon people so easily as you have abandoned Kerry.

[saracat]

83. Thank you Good Post!

Welcome to DU !:hi:

[JNelson6563]

89. You question our loyalty???

Here's anewsflash for you my friend: I never had enthusiasm for Kerry. I supported Dean who was brought down by a cabal of "Dems" and the media. I worked my guts out for Kerry only towatch him concede before they were done counting the votes.

I'd wager I worked harder to get Kerry elected than those who are smitten with him, maybe even you. How DARE you question loyalty? Some of us who weren't all t hat impressed with him neglected home and family for his campaign so would you like a clue what you can do wityh your soapbox or can figure that out on your own?

Julie

[Guaranteed]

93. Exactly- WE were the ones who got stabbed in the back. Not Kerry.

The guy had his shot. That's it. Time for someone with leadership skills.

[Lost4words]

90. Dean was pushed out by the media. IMO

Don't talk to me 'bout loyalty. It is Kerry's position to pursue this and not just roll over. Where is his loyalty to the citizens of this country, to us, his supporters, the ones who put all their faith in his words. And at the very least, where is his commitment to free and fair elections? I don't see it yet and I am still waiting.

I am an American, I will accept defeat gracefully and support any legitimately elected leader.

If he ain't legit he needs to get.

[Guaranteed]

94. Yup, that's the new meme.

"Dean supporters die-hard fanaticism brought down Dean."

Far be it from someone in the Democratic Party to truly believe in their candidate.

[JNelson6563]

95. I guess the same would be applied to

Clark then cause his supporters are just as passionate as the Deanies.

What tripe!

Julie

[JohnKleeb]

105. Its a bunch of fair weathered crap

People wonder why we struggle, this is why, we eat our own way too easily without thinking.

[lastliberalintexas]

109. Sorry, John, but it's not

You were here during the primaries, and you saw that many people here had doubts about Kerry then. Many of us didn't like him back then, but worked for him anyway (as Julie did). For the majority of us, this isn't about being fair weathered.

I bit my tongue on this site for the past 6 months, abiding by the administrators' rules. The fact that we were silent during that time doesn't mean that our doubts and reservations about Kerry disappeared. Just that they were temporarily under wraps.

People are voicing their opinions again so that our party doesn't make the same mistakes in 2008.

[JohnKleeb]

123. If Kerry had won, people wouldn't be saying "Fuck Kerry" etc

What pisses me off the most is people who claimed they had pragmatic reasons against backing Kucinich later complained about Kerry winning the primaries on electablity reasons. Sorry but I think it is crap, I dont know if I want him again in '08 but we're already jumping on the guy's back and its not even certain if hes running.

[JNelson6563]

132. If Kerry had fought we wouldn't have the same attitude

whether he won or lost.

But he didn't fight did he?

Julie

[JohnKleeb]

154. They seem to be fighting now and IMO its very hard to prove fraud

when you're down by a whole percent if not more in a state, Ohio isn't like Florida at all in 2000.

[Ima]

119. Talk Hard

"I wonder how loyal some of you are in your personal lives and if you'd abandon people so easily as you have abandoned Kerry."


How dare you! Who the hell do you think you are, with your snide, condescending remarks?


Get on topic bucko!Quit attacking the voters who worked hard, donated their time, and money to Kerry. Take off your rose colored glasses, and look at the real world. Someone has thrown a wet blanket on the fire, and the coffee is burning.


We are the ones that were poorly used, and abandoned! We didn't hide under a rock for 7-10 days. We are still fighting, without a leader.

[flordehinojos]

80. kerry ought to pack it. he didn't fight when he was supposed to.

no guarantee that he will fight if he has to next time around.
'twas nice knowing 'ya kerry, but now it is time to grieve and let go.

[Piperay]

82. Kerry wasn't the best choice in 2004

and he will be even less of a choice in 2008. The Democratic Party needs someone different, not a retread.

[Lost4words]

87. Don't f-ing bother, if JK wont fight now, he wont fight later!

John Kerry and all the Dem's for a second time are a total disappointment to me. I am really starting to believe that the DNC and RNC work as a team. Besides, I am considering ending my experiment in participatory democracy in the USA. My going through the actions of voting only helped to give the appearance of propriety to the sham process.

Democracy has moved to the Ukraine it would seem.

[Zynx]

88. Don't do it John!

[taps]

91. the got more votes against * than for him

He wasn't my first choice but I suppored him. I know there were a lot better candidates we could have picked!

[bunkerbuster1]

92. "He lost badly." Who's the moron who said this?

From The Hill story quoted upthread:

“He not only lost, he lost badly,” said a key member of the Congressional Black Caucus who did not want to be identified. “Is anyone going to listen to him after the way he ran his own campaign?”

So, you come within 2.76% and one state of toppling a dictator, and that's now defined as "losing badly?"

Yeah, that unnamed source, he's a "key member," all right.

[unfrigginreal]

99. Senator, less than 20% of the electorate voted FOR you

The majority of your support was anti-Bush, get it?

[Lerkfish]

100. I really LIKED kerry, I attended two rallies, I donated......

but in my heart of hearts, I originally supported him because I wanted to unseat the shrub. Only AFTER attending the rallies did I grow to like him more...before that I was lukewarm on him, didn't love him, didn't hate him. However, I am now convinced he would have made a good president.

In other words, if he were not running against bush, would I have picked him? Yes, because I always vote dem, but would I have felt as solid about it if he was running against a more reasonable repub candidate (if they existed)? no.

contrast this with Clinton and Carter. I absolutely felt they were the best men for the job, no matter who ran against them.

I'm not saying this to blame Kerry. I think, of the crop we had to choose from in the primary, he seemed the most electable. We just need to have a better crop to choose from, period. We need to have , as they say in basketball, a deeper bench.

[prayin4rain]

101. I like Kerry but I don't want him for 2008. n/t

[JohnKleeb]

104. looks like I am all alone here

but I really wouldn't mind it but we're gonna have to see who else is running. A lot of you guys are saying, "one run, one shot" yet I don't see any complaining about Gore, just saying its very double standardish.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

108. Speaking Only For Myself

I was against Gore running again, as well.

DTH

[JohnKleeb]

122. Yeah well I didnt mean everyone

[DoveTurnedHawk]

126. I Know

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. :D

DTH

[Snivi Yllom]

110. Kerry had his shot and blew it, lets try someone new.

I want to clean house.

[cyberpj]

143. Have to say - I'm also wanting someone with some fire!

Someone who can inspire with nothing but the truth with nothing to fear. I miss my heroes! Ghandi... King... Bruce!

[Tacos al Carbon]

112. Speaking of people who are eligible to run again

How old is Jimmy Carter? How old will he be in 2008? Will he be much older than Reagan was in 1984?

[frustrated_lefty]

116. Fuck Kerry.

If the bastard can't stand up and show balls for a recount, screw him! We should have gone with Dean. At least one candidate was willing to fight.

[Lost Creek]

133. YES - FUCK HIM

The sorry son of a bitch fucked us.

I will work against him with all the furry that I launched against monkeyboy.

[gordianot]

118. Given the potential decline, will there be a 2008?

[lojasmo]

120. I will work against Kerry in another run.

[4_TN_TITANS]

127. Kerry didn't turn his back on us......

Didn't any of you get the letter from JohnKerry.com this week? Kerry hasn't given up. Contacting us - his campaign supporters again, was a big sign to me that he is still in the fight.

Dear Michael,
I want to thank you personally for what you did in the election -- you rewrote the book on grassroots politics, taking control of campaigns away from big donors. No campaign will ever be the same.
You moved voters, helped hold George Bush accountable, and countered the attacks from big news organizations such as Fox, Sinclair Broadcasting, and conservative talk radio.
And your efforts count now more than ever. Despite the words of cooperation and moderate sounding promises, this administration is planning a right wing assault on values and ideals we hold most deeply. Healthy debate and diverse opinion are being eliminated from the State Department and CIA, and the cabinet is being remade to rubber stamp policies that will undermine Social Security, balloon the deficit, avoid real reforms in health care and education, weaken homeland security, and walk away from critical allies around the world.
Regardless of the outcome of this election, once all the votes are counted -- and they will be counted -- we will continue to challenge this administration. This is not a time for Democrats to retreat and accommodate extremists on critical principles -- it is a time to stand firm.
I will fight for a national standard for federal elections that has both transparency and accountability in our voting system. It's unacceptable in the United States that people still don't have full confidence in the integrity of the voting process.
I ask you to join me in this cause.
And we must fight not only against George Bush's extreme policies -- we must also uphold our own values. This is why on the first day Congress is in session next year, I will introduce a bill to provide every child in America with health insurance. And, with your help, that legislation will be accompanied by the support of hundreds of thousands of Americans.
There are more than eight million uninsured children in our nation.
That's eight million reasons for us to stay together and fight for a new direction. It is a disgrace that in the wealthiest nation on earth, eight million children go without health insurance.
Normally, a member of the Senate will first approach other senators and ask them to co-sponsor a bill before it is introduced -- instead, I am turning to you. Imagine the power of a bill co-sponsored by hundreds of thousands of Americans being presented on the floor of the United States Senate. You can make it happen. Sign our "Every Child Protected" pledge today and forward it to your family, friends, and neighbors:
http://johnkerry.com/EveryChild
This is the beginning of a second term effort to hold the Bush administration accountable and to stand up and fight for our principles and our values. They want you to disappear; they are counting on that. I'm confident you will prove them wrong, and you will rewrite history again.
Here is what I want you to know. I understand the strength, commitment, and passion that are at the core of what we built together -- and I am determined to make our collective energy and organization a force to be reckoned with in the weeks and months ahead.
Let's roll up our sleeves and get back to work for our country.
Thank you,

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[freedom_to_read]

131. All this Kerry bashing is pointless

Folks, come on. What does it accomplish, other than venting your spleen?

So Kerry wants to run in 2008. That doesn't mean he'll automagically be the nominee. That's why there's a primary race.

In the meantime, if he's serious about running, he'll use his clout as a senator to hammer the Republicans. He'll use his name recognition to help the Dems fight these stupid Rethugs in Congress. And that's good for us whether he is the 2008 nominee or not.

I know a lot of you are pissed that he didn't win, as if it were his fault. A lot of you think he didn't fight hard enough for a recount. Fine, that's your opinion... I think he would have been pilloried as a sore loser.

A lot of you think he wasn't a good enough Dem. That, also is your opinion. I think he was, and remains, an honorable man who showed a lot of courage and -- even if he lost -- worked a hell of a lot harder to save this country from the Right than most of us.

But attacking his character, or just saying "fuck him" or saying "If only Dean <Kucinich,Clark,Sharpton,Gore,etc.> had been the Man Who then we would've won" is just pointless and sad. If wishes were dollars, then we'd all be rich.

I say if Kerry wants to run again, that's great. Maybe I'll support him, maybe not. He will bring his qualifications to the race. And whoever runs against him in the nomination will bring theirs. And hopefully the best man or woman will be nominated and proceed to win the election. Competition is good for us, so let him throw his oar in.

Besides it's so freaking ridiculously early to be worrying about this! We've got a lot more important things to worry about right now, like, say saving our country from fascism.

End of rant.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

135. Well said. Great post. Thanks!!! nt

[freedom_to_read]

136. thank you for responding

i was beginning to think i'd killed the thread.

peace,

ftr

[IndianaGreen]

141. About Kerry...

setting aside my political opinion of the vanquished 2004 candidate, including what I think about his stupid Canada geese shooting photo-op, I think John Kerry is a real nice man who is married to a great woman and an extraordinary philanthropist. His daughters were a great asset to the campaign, and they seemed far more likeable and interesting than the Bush twins.

I wish we could change the Constitution to permit women such as Teresa Heinz Kerry, Hadassah Lieberman, and Jennifer Granholm to run for President if so they chose. The Constitution bars them from running because they are naturalized citizens. Hadassah Lieberman is far nicer than her husband, Holy Joe. Teresa Heinz would make a fine President or head of state in any country.

Kerry should borrow a page from Al Gore and dump all of his campaign advisors if he decides to run again in 2008. Al Gore looked and sounded awesome when he was speaking against Bush and the war no longer restrained by campaign handlers, polls, and moronic focus groups. Kerry can do the same! If Kerry chooses to run again, he must first sue John O'Neil and the people behind Unfit for Command for libel. Sure, Kerry may be forced to release all of his medical records, as he would under discovery rules, but that is a minor price to pay for getting a judgment against these idiots.

[ozone_man]

145. Sounds like you're asking him to be like Dean.

Get rid of that nuanced facade and tell it straight, that's what people want to hear, not some pontificating politician.

Gore learned it 4 years too late. Listening to Gore this past year, I thought "WOW!" he's got it, the voice that Dean has. That's what Kerry lacks.

I should say 4 years too late for Gore in 2000, but not for Gore/Dean in 2008. :)

[IStriker]

153. What about Dean?

Is there any chance he will run again in '08? I really think he was the best candidate and he got the shaft from his own party.

[Seabiscuit]

160. Gore/Dean 2008 actually makes sense.

Otherwise, Gore/Edwards 2008 with Dean as chair of the DNC beginning 2005.

[Seabiscuit]

161. Spleen needs venting aplenty. So what?

Kerry fucked up royally. He lost to the worst President in American history. Let me count the ways....

Screw Kerry. He deserves our contempt.

[struggle4progress]

142. It's the ground game. If we build a national grassroots progressive ...

... movement, we'll win. If we keep hoping that the media will cover our policy issues fairly, we'll continue to lose.

No adequate ground game can be developed in a few weeks or months. Democrats across the country, and on the Hill, must work with progressives and must take good loud progressive stands on carefully chosen issues.

[belab13]

146. might get my attention if he starts kickin *ss in the senate, otherwise

fool me once....

[Seabiscuit]

158. Yeah, he's gonna "kick ass in the Senate"...

just as he did with the IWR - argued against it, quietly voted for it.

Nothing but a hot air windbag in my book.

We need a good-looking, tall, non-dyslexic, Howard Dean from a state bigger than Vermont to become our next Democratic President. Someone with balls like Howard, who has more public appeal and who doesn't have this nasty habit of sticking his foot in his mouth and screaming like a Banshee with a hoarse voice when some scoundrel like Joe Trippi wants him to rally a crowd after a humiliating loss.

If only I knew who that person might be...

[KamaAina]

147. KamaAina believes Kerry unprepared for 2004 run

thus leaving the country, indeed the entire world, defenseless against four more years of Bush**it.

To paraphrase Hunter S. Thompson on Nixon, "Not just four more years, but Bush**'s last four years in politics." No more song and dance about "compassionate conservatism", I'm afraid.

Kerry could have made it stop, and he didn't. What will even be left for him to run for by '08?

[Deja Q]

149. Don't expect me to vote for Kerry then. He betrayed us already. Remember

that saying that's in Tennessee. "Fool me once. shame on... shame on... you? Fool me tw-, can't get fooled again." :crazy:

[eridani]

152. The only way I would support him in 2008 would be--

--if he starts fighting hard and right now for fair, public and auditable voting procedures. Without that, the Democratic party is finished as an organization.

[Seabiscuit]

157. You're right about what needs to be done, but Kerry has shown he won't

do it. He essentially resigned from the Democratic Party November 3. He now sleeps only with the corrupt and spineless From DLC.

Wake up, Kerry supporters.

The bastard defrauded us and stole out money.

[LiberalAndProud]

155. I want this man to be my President.

If not now, then in 2008. He is still the man who understands the subtleties of war. Kerry/Edwards 2008.

The Democratic Party will not flip flop.

[Liberaltarian]

162. screw that!!

he's a LOSER.

4 people I don't want anywhere NEAR the Democratic ticket in 2008:

John Kerry
Al Gore
Hillary Clinton
John Edwards

We need NEW blood with NEW ideas, other than trying to be "re-puke lite"
these tired old warhorses have proved that that way of thinking DOES NOT WORK.

put'em ALL out to pasture, or send them to the glue factory.

[Seabiscuit]

156. Kerry screwed us, and lost to the worst President in history. Screw him.