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Warning from the markets - ( S Korea bond selloff)

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clem_c_rock Donating Member (989 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 12:58 PM
Original message
Warning from the markets - ( S Korea bond selloff)
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/02/24/opinion/eddollar.html

<snippit>

Enter South Korea. On Monday, its central bank reported that it intended to diversify into other currencies and away from dollar-based assets. And why not? It holds about $69 billion in U.S. Treasury securities, or 4 percent of the total foreign Treasury holdings. Such dollar-based investments lose value as the dollar weakens, leading to losses that any cautious banker would want to avoid. But as the Korean comment ping-ponged around the world, all hell broke loose, with currency traders selling dollars for fear that the central banks of Japan and China, which hold immense dollar reserves - a combined $900 billion, or 46 percent of foreign Treasury holdings - might follow suit.
.
That would be the United States' worst economic nightmare. If it appeared that the flow of investment from abroad was not enough to cover the nation's gargantuan deficits, interest rates would soar, the dollar would plunge, and the economy would stall.
.
Tuesday's sell-off of dollars did not precipitate a meltdown. But it sure gave a taste of one. The dollar suffered its worst single-day decline in two months against the yen and the euro. Stock markets in New York, London, Paris and Frankfurt, Germany, dropped, and gold and oil prices, which tend to go up when the dollar goes down, spiked.
.
Luckily, the markets calmed down Wednesday, as Asian central banks said they did not intend to shun dollars. While such damage control is welcome, it's no fix. Tuesday's market episode has its roots in American structural imbalances that will be corrected only by new policies, not more of the same tax-cut-and-weak-dollar deficit-bloating ploys. If George W. Bush were half the capitalist he claims he is, he would listen to what the markets are telling him.
.
.
See more of the world that matters - click here for home delivery of the International Herald Tribune.
.
< < Back to Start of Article
When a seemingly innocuous remark from the central bank of South Korea makes the dollar tank, as happened on Tuesday, all is not well with the United States' position in the world economy.
.
The dollar has been on a downward trajectory for three years, thanks in part to the Bush administration's decision to try to use a cheap dollar to shrink the nation's enormous trade deficit. To be truly effective, however, a weak dollar must be combined with a lower federal budget deficit - or even a budget surplus, something the administration clearly hasn't delivered. So predictably, the weak-dollar ploy hasn't worked. The United States' trade deficit has mushroomed to record levels, as has the United States' need to borrow from abroad - some $2 billion a day - just to balance its books.
.
Enter South Korea. On Monday, its central bank reported that it intended to diversify into other currencies and away from dollar-based assets. And why not? It holds about $69 billion in U.S. Treasury securities, or 4 percent of the total foreign Treasury holdings. Such dollar-based investments lose value as the dollar weakens, leading to losses that any cautious banker would want to avoid. But as the Korean comment ping-ponged around the world, all hell broke loose, with currency traders selling dollars for fear that the central banks of Japan and China, which hold immense dollar reserves - a combined $900 billion, or 46 percent of foreign Treasury holdings - might follow suit.
.
That would be the United States' worst economic nightmare. If it appeared that the flow of investment from abroad was not enough to cover the nation's gargantuan deficits, interest rates would soar, the dollar would plunge, and the economy would stall.
</snippit>
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. 46 percent of foreign Treasury holdings
Japan and China

Thanks that is the first concrete number I have seen in a while.

This is bad news.
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jswordy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. More concrete numbers
Bloomberg -- International investors owned $1.936 trillion of the almost $4 trillion in marketable U.S. Treasury securities as of December, according to Treasury Department figures. Foreign holdings rose about 27 percent last year.


Here ya go, read it and weep!

http://www.forexnews.com/ai/default.asp

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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. So in total ferrners hold over a quarter of US Treasury debt
and of that Japan and China and So.Korea own half.

Wow. The rest is split up between all the others.

Wow HALF! and with our money (the Chinese anyway).

Clinton was right-you can't make demands on your banker (that was the first I had heard of China's role).
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. A picture is worth a thousand words....
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jswordy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. It'll happen
If it appeared that the flow of investment from abroad was not enough to cover the nation's gargantuan deficits, interest rates would soar, the dollar would plunge, and the economy would stall.

Ought to happen between now and end of October, if my model is right. Maybe not completely crippling, but definitely a jolt ahead.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. You've got an 8 month window there, care to explain
against what larger time frame you are modelling so we have some idea about the proportionate size your projection's time frame?
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jswordy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. The model is based...
...on cumulative effect of U.S. debt management, monetary and trade policy since 2000. The projected time period as of 2004 for the convergence of events to precipitate a U.S. currency/financial/economic crisis was anytime from first through third quarter 2005, provided that U.S. policy continued on the same course it had taken through first quarter 2004 without major adjustment.

The estimated time period for a downturn has not changed since 2003, when I began making personal preparations for it. In second quarter 2003, it was remodeled to project a one quarter advance in the window, based on projections for retail refined fuels prices in the U.S.

The depth is not factored into this model, so it could be anything from mild to wild. My own opinion is that, should it occur, it will be severe enough to shake domestic investment markets for 6-8 quarters forward of the event, until momentum is re-established.

The "Korean quiver" we just felt lends credibility to the model. We'll just have to see. Retail fuel prices should rise dramatically in the U.S. through September, and that drag on GDP and consumer spending, exacerbated by and coupled with a declining and unattractive dollar, could be all it takes.

Way too much debt, way too little concern about it. Look at the Dow, up as I write 59 points. In my view, the longer the markets do not take notice, the harder they will be hit when/if it happens.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Or are the stock market gains just an illusion to those investing in $?
Think about it, to a European, a 59 point gain means nothing if the dollar loses 1/2% against the Euro. For a long time now, what looks like gains on the stock market may be largely price adjustment due to currency fluctuations.
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. So, what preparations have you personally made?
Just would like to know. We have no debt other than 10 more years on a low interest rate mortgage, and that's the way we like it. We also live only 9 miles away from work, so gas prices would REALLY have to get high to hurt us.

Is there anything else we should be doing?
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I don't have advice but...
carrying no debt other than a mortgage is a good thing. I hear that gas prices are really going to take off this summer. Cruise america is an RV rental company. They are saying $2.50/gallon for July 4th weekend. I have read that in other places too.

http://www.cruiseamerica.com/hot_rental_deals/default.asp
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. " .. the economy would stall."
Stall, spin, crash, and burn.

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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. 46% WHOAH!!! No wonder South Korea was trying to quiet
everybody's nerves they have so much at stake being loaded with dollars like that!!!

I personally think there is an effort here by Bush & cohorts to bankrupt America...

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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. At what point does the falling dollar (and rusting but available
infrastructure start to make US based production competitive?

Rising transportation costs from overseas and rising relative value of foreign labor have all got to help make US production look a little more attractive.

Are we looking at some short term thing that will preclude redevelopment, or as the dollar falls are we looking at a circumstance that's going to endure and around which US production gets to regroup?


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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Maybe their hoping for a bail-out after the collapse.
The only reason I think they'd want to bankrupt the country is to have the massive and unpayable debt forgive (which is, the point of bankruptcy).

I think the value of the dollar is a symptom of the larger problem...unpayable and soon-to-be unfundable national debt.
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VirginiaDem Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. We're about to find out...
I've been posting in these threads for a few months, trying to counter the sky-is-falling theme in these parts but now even I'm worried. The Chinese and Japanese know that we live in an interdependent world and a US economic collapse will almost definitely be followed by a Chinese and Japanese economic collapse. This is a classic Prisoner's Dilemma, if you're familiar with Game Theory. The Japanese and Chinese don't know if/when the other will bail (to cut their losses). Whoever jumps first loses because of the ensuing collapse but not as badly as the other. But if they both continue to hold their dollars (or even buy more, which I see as a very real possibility), then the collapse doesn't occur and everybody is better off (at least in the short and medium term, which, let's face it, is the only thing that politicians care about).

Unfortunately, with the recent diversifications by everybody and their mother, that puts a defection by either the Japanese or the Chinese as a more realistic option. That would be when the very real shit hits the game theoretic fan.
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puerco-bellies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. It is already having an affect.
I am short dollars, and long soybeans. A dropping dollar makes our beans cheaper on the foreign markets. They are up 30 cents today in-part from Asian rust, drought conditions in South America, and to a lesser degree a cheaper dollar.
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Nordmadr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. Furthermore,
more countries are looking to diversify to the Euro which hurts us two ways. The U.S. dollar loses its footing as the currency for oil. As oil costs continue to rise, and our currency has less value in comparison to the Euro and other currencies, we are further screwed with getting less for our dollar. At least that is how I understand it.

Olaf
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Well I don't trust the Euro either!!! I'd be careful there its brand
new currency and its not taken many hits yet!!!
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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. This is the biggest news of the week....if not the month..
nt
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clem_c_rock Donating Member (989 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I agree. You sure don't hear anything about it either.
Listening to NPR at least 50 hours a week, all you hear is the economy is picking up and looking great.

WTF??
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jswordy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. You need to read daily the STOCK MARKET WATCH thread...
...right here in LBN.

You are correct. We are being sold a bill of goods that our military might is making our nation stronger, when we are actually gettng weaker every day in the REAL global war -- the economic one!
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Lefty is right all these news articles put up by DUERs are Foreign
Our Press has been told don't get Americans alarmed that would really put pressure on America banks if a panic started but we did see a bit of a panic with a 178 point drop in the stock market in one day...

People in the financial world are totally aware and nervous about this!!!
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. The MSM's Number One Goal Is To Get People To Buy Crap
They will never tell you the truth about the economy, except for Suze Orman. She's great.
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rogue_bandit Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
16. Social Security Treasury securities
Isn't Social Security heavily (if not totally) invested in Treasury securities? If so how much? I think I had read it was like a trillion?
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. You, DUers, Make Me Sick
You're all worried about a currency collapse and economic meltdown when Gays are trying to get married. We must stop the Gays from getting hitched. Get your priorities straight. /sarcasm
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Blower Donating Member (195 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
25. Good strategy is to sell all US stocks n/t
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
27. What else should we be doing in preparation for a falling $?
Can someone give me the lowdown on what we should be doing--to prepare for a collapsing US $?

We are debt-free except for 10 yrs on a fixed mortgage. No credit cards.

Can anyone recommend anything from the investment side? What should we be doing?

Thnx for any info.

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hector459 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
28. George W. Bush is just a "socialist" for the wealthy. Meanwhile the
non-wealthy Americans can just drop dead for all he cares.
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
29. I am just sitting back and waiting for all of this to happen
:kick:
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Robert Oak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. me too, I know it's going to happen, economic collapse
problem is I don't have any money of my own to stop it from affecting me...

Anybody in Canada hiring? Europe?
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