NYT: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions

[DeepModem Mom]

Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
By EDUARDO PORTER

Published: April 5, 2005


STOCKTON, Calif. - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.

Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez - who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana - contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.

Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections....


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

[Sandpiper]

1. Don't tell that to the racists and xenophobes

They're convinced that illegals are sucking the life out of the economy.

[SharonAnn]

2. I was telling someone that on Saturday and they didn't believe me.

[primavera]

27. Welcome to the club

I've been saying this around here until I'm blue in the face, but a fat lot of good it does getting past people's prejudices.

[hezekkia]

80. can someone help me-

how can the workers and their employesr pay social security taxes without a legit social security number? I'm unclear on how this is possible.

[tyedyeto]

3. I've also heard of employers who.....

take the Social Security money out of undocumented workers paychecks, but never pay the money to the Federal Gov't. Since they believe these illegals don't have a SS number and will never collect it, it's never reported and the employer pockets the $$ from the payroll deduction.

[Tansy_Gold]

6. Many employers don't know who the "illegals" are

the employer fills out an I-9 form with a driver's license and a social security card for IDs. the picture of the license looks about right -- hey, do any of us look like our DL photo? -- and there's nothing on a SS card that provides identification.

So the employer processes the payroll and deposits the funds LEGALLY, but these workers are never going to be around to collect what they've paid in.

And if more than one person is using that SSN, there's even more going into the kitty than they'll ever get back out.

I've processed these I-9s. I've gone out to the jobsites on construction projects and i've had these guys sign their I-9s and they all say they're citizens and they all have DLs and SSNs and no, they don't speak much English, and they probably go "home" to Mexico every week-end, but does the employer dare not pay into OASDI and Medicare?

I-9s don't get filed with anyone except the employer, who is required to keep a copy and produce it if they're ever audited by USCIS (formerly INS). And all the employer has to prove is that they got the documentation and they believed it was legit.

Two weeks ago, I applied for a job, but I didn't have my original official SS card. The employer wouldn't take any other ID (don't get me started on what the law is and how they are required to take other forms of ID; I know that and it's not relevant) and so I had to go to the SS office and apply for a duplicate. It took a week to arrive in the mail and I was forced to wait an extra week to start work.

My husband was telling a co-worker about this dilemma and she laughed and said she could probably have got me a SS card that would have passed any kind of scrutiny for about $50 on the street.

The point being that despite what the xenophobes and anti-illegal-immigrant folks say, there is much more paid into the system in the form of OASDI, Medicare, FIT, SIT, SDI, UIC taxes for undocumented immigrants than is skimmed off by unscrupulous employers.

Are there people who take advantage of the illegals and line their pockets with SS taxes? Sure. But more often than not they're individuals have a nanny or an au pair or a pool guy or a mover that they pay cash and never think twice about.

[tyedyeto]

7. Thank you for educating me further..........

that's what I like about DU.......someone is always here to point out the finer points that most of us do not know. Posts like yours are always appreciated. TYVM

[fleabert]

8. I totally agree with you.

I tried to explain this on another thread this weekend, you did a much better job. Thanks

[LiberallyInclined]

42. i had an employer not pay into SS at all for the two years i worked there-

they took the money out of my check every week, but never made payments to SS.
they are now bankrupt and out of business, and i'm SOL over it.
i became disabled and had to start collecting at age 38- a lot of the other people who worked there won't find out about it until they retire.
since my working life was shortened to 20 years, it constitutes 10% of my SS money(or rather SHOULD have), and now i get less money every month than i should be getting.

[Sgent]

62. If you have any paystubs or W-2s

The feds will give you credit for having paid the tax (and the employer's matching amount).

They will go after your former employer (bankruptcy cannot discharge trust fund money's), but you won't be affected by their success or not. All you have to do is prove to the IRS that the taxes were with-held.

[Rose Siding]

4. Breaker breaker, calling all "Minutemen"

Cease and desist...retirement is on the line. Out

[valis]

5. wealth, no matter where it is

is invariably made at the expense of many hardworking people who don't get credit for their contribution...

[magellan]

9. This doesn't justify illegal entry

And I'm not a racist or a xenophobe. I'm a woman who brought her husband into the US legally. While I sympathize with those who want to work/reside in the US, doing it illegally -- and rewarding people for it as Bush** wants to do -- is wrong. It creates as many problems as it solves.

Immigrating isn't cheap and isn't easy. There's a reason for that. We're civilized and advanced enough to resolve the problem of illegal entry once and for all, instead of justifying the practice with excuses like how much illegals contribute to SS.

[DulceDecorum]

13. Much of immigration law

is in itself illegal.
Doesn't that count for anything?
Many people would NOT be illegal if the law was clear and followed the Constitution.
Immigration law is SO bad that it is written that if any "illegal" calls upon the Constitution for the protection of any human right, then he shall be found guilty as charged at that very instant. The Board of Immigration Appeals is forbidden to consider questions concerning the Constitution and so any foreigner claiming Constitutional protections finds themself SOL.
Now, THAT is what I call a stacked deck.

[magellan]

19. The law WE followed was quite clear

I suspect the problem is there's a lot of misinformation floating around. But the fact is it's easy to find the correct answers to questions about immigration to the US. Try a US embassy...A phone call is all it takes. Or the INS website. There are many books written on the subject as well, in various languages. We did it without a lawyer. There is simply no excuse for getting it so wrong that illegal entry is the result.

As for parts of the immigration law being illegal, what in particular are you referring to? I'm aware of things BushCo have done re the Patriot Act that are a clear violation of UN treaty where the rights of non-citizens are concerned. But that is a separate issue. Are you putting those wrongs forward as an excuse to commit another wrong?

[DulceDecorum]

26. How can it be wrong

to remind INS officers of rights
guaranteed by the Constitution that have sworn to uphold?

[magellan]

32. You misunderstood me

You seem to be saying that because certain immigration laws are unlawful, that's an excuse for illegal entry. I'm saying two wrongs don't make a right.

[saigon68]

21. We also enjoy educating Juan's six children and paying his medical bills

These people are here for one reason only. To keep wages DOWN. The Bush Criminals WANT THEM HERE.

No pesky Unions etc.

[hollowdweller]

51. Amen! There was a show that said NC was having trouble paying

For extra teachers to get the kids that spoke spanish up to speed.

[MADem]

25. You're right, the ones who should be excoriated are the LEGISLATORS

Our friken government refuses to get off their ass and DO anything about it--like say, establish a viable guest worker program, and secure the borders so them there 'terrists' can't wander in mixed amongst the illegals.

It isn't just Mexicans, El Salvadorans, and Guatemalans coming over that border--it's Chinese as well. It's the new route for any group or individual that wants to get in without going through immigration. It's like swiss cheese, and if you pay, there are people who will get you across. That's a national security issue, and a serious one. We can only hope that the next Muhammed Atta doesn't come by way of the AZ-MX border.

That said, our government needs to come up with a sane, sensible fair policy that provides the willing workforce with appropriate documentation and that offers opportunities to apply for residence and citizenship, if eligible, and at the same time keeps our borders checked.

Someone's making plenty of money off of "business as usual." It's the only possible reason that this unsatisfactory state of affairs, where both workers are exploited and security compromised, is allowed to continue unchecked.

[magellan]

33. Absolutely!

Someone's making plenty of money off of "business as usual." It's the only possible reason that this unsatisfactory state of affairs, where both workers are exploited and security compromised, is allowed to continue unchecked.

Oh, you betcha it boils down to money, and it's always the good guy who suffers (illegal or otherwise). Thank you for very clearly touching on both sides.

I'm all for giving illegal workers some form of amnesty...AFTER the government gets serious about border control. Otherwise we'll all just wind up right back here again, discussing the illegal immigrant problem.

[sandnsea]

34. Guest worker would be WORSE

Tom Delay continued to hail the “free market” of the CNMI and said “the United States should establish an identical “guest worker” program ‘where particular companies can bring Mexican workers in.’ The Mexicans would be paid ‘at whatever wage the market will bear.’”

So how did this play out in the Mariana Islands? After years of reports of corruption and abuse, an undercover Interior Dept investigation brought 400 reports from CNMI workers to the halls of Congress. Among the “free market” practices of the Mariana Islands was the ability to label garments “Made in the USA” and ship them to the US, duty free, while dispensing with all US immigration, minimum wage and labor standards. Unscrupulous manufacturers brought Chinese workers into the CNMI and kept them under harrowing conditions. The Chinese workers were lured into signing contracts that promised them work, housing and health care in the US, many paid $5,000 - $7,000 fees for the privilege. The contracts also stated they would be deported if they complained of working conditions, practiced their religions, engaged in political activity, became pregnant or even got married. Underage girls in nude clubs, forced prostitution and coerced abortions were routine.

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=668

[Doremus]

10. $8 to $12 an hour? How do we get some of those jobs in Ohio?

Shortly before the election we were driving through a neighborhood in inner-city Cleveland and noticed a long line of people snaking out the door and around the block from a newly-built McDonald's. Stopped at a light, we asked what they were doing. They were waiting to apply for the handful of new $5.50 fast food jobs.

Cleveland has a 30% unemployment rate. You don't think they would jump on those $8 to $12/hr. jobs that "nobody wants"?

I posted this summary on another thread this weekend:

• By increasing the supply of labor between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of native-born men by an estimated $1,700 or roughly 4 percent.

• Among natives without a high school education, who roughly correspond to the poorest tenth of the workforce, the estimated impact was even larger, reducing their wages by 7.4 percent.

• The 10 million native-born workers without a high school degree face the most competition from immigrants, as do the eight million younger natives with only a high school education and 12 million younger college graduates.

• The negative effect on native-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants.

• The reduction in earnings occurs regardless of whether the immigrants are legal or illegal, permanent

or temporary. It is the presence of additional workers that reduces wages, not their legal status.

From here:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back504.html

[barb162]

14. good points, good facts

[Richard Steele]

15. Wages are RELATIVE, Doremus...

$8, or $13/hr might be great in Ohio, but it wouldn't get you a cardboard box in other parts of this country.

A few years ago, I was in Baltimore making $7/hr...by living on REALLY cheap food, I was able to afford a nice 2br apartment in a safe, clean neigborhood. ($7 wasn't great, but I LOVED my job and my employer was AWESOME!)

When I moved to another city in '98, I found a job in 3 days at $9.50...which BARELY allowed me to afford a single tiny room in a drug/violence-ridden SH*THOLE I affectionately called "Crack Central".

If I had moved to an urban California environment, that $9.50/hr wouldn't have bought me a spot on the floor in a condemned building full of "illegals"!

It's all relative to the MARKET, Doremus! Believe me, the average "Illegal Worker" would think that a job at at MickeyD's was a dream come true!

[Doremus]

20. Quite true, just as our poorest native-born Ohioans would and do!

My point is the influx of workers at the lowest economic spectrum serves to perpetuate lower wages.

When supply (workers) exceeds demand (jobs), it's an employer's market and they accrue all the power. Conversely, when the supply of workers levels out, workers gain leverage.

When all native-borns in the job market are gainfully employed, then will be the time to open the doors to guests. Opening it prematurely helps neither group because they're forced to compete for the same low-paid, dead-end jobs.

Having a steady supply of slave labor does help one group: the fatcat CEOs and Shrubco sugar daddies who live high on the hog off the backs of their underpaid labor. No wonder they want to keep the Arizona Underground Railroad open.

[Richard Steele]

23. But you need to be aware: Supply/demand only works in NATURE!

Our current paradigm is _NOT_ natural!

Our current socioeconomic situation is so FUBAR that Adam Smith's head would explode!

In a NATURAL situation, 90% of the citizens would posess 90% of the economy, on average...a few hardworking geniuses would have alot more than average, and a few lazy bums would be sleeping in the gutter, but it would 'AVERAGE OUT' out across 300 million citizens.

Our current economic situation is EXACTLY OPPOSITE of 'natural'; it's actually worse than FEUDALISM!

Less than 10% of the people _OWN_ more than 90% of EVERYTHING! And we all know that they didn't get it because they are BETTER than us, but only because they are more DISHONEST! And because CORPORATIONS write the laws that make it so!
ENRON, WorldCom, HMO's, Blue Cross, Big Pharma, ...the list is ENDLESS!

Even if we assume that an equal 10% are worthless layabouts (unlikely)
That still means that the remaining 80+% who work hard every day are just fighting for 10% of the total economy...LITERALLY less than crumbs from the table of the ruling class!

Do some research on Medieval Feudalism, and crunch the numbers...
those powerless SERFS actually ATE a bigger percentage of the GNP than us wage-slaves recieve as "take-home pay"!
:rant:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

85. CIS is a RW source, therefore not valid

[pacifictiger]

11. I lived and worked

legally in the US for 30 years, paying into SS, and would not have been eligible to collect even though I paid in. I finally decided to do the formal citizenship thing only about 4 years ago, but now, because I moved back to my country of birth to care for aging parents, I still am no longer eligible to collect because this country does not have "reciprocal" status.
There must be many others like me.

[cire4]

12. Excellent article...bookmarked and nominated!

n/t

[Robert Oak]

16. wtf, Bush signed a treaty w/ Mexico, they now DO get SS benefits

totalization agreement, here:
http://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/factsheets/USandMexico.htm

plus this article complete ignores the huge underground economy
of cash only payments...

and in any street corner or any city, you think all of those day
laborers and construction workers are pulling w2's, think again.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscal.html
http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back205.html

they also aren't pointing out what CNN/
Time did, which is another way illegals are working the system is to get
Medicaid w/ fake social security numbers...
now on those same wage levels Americans w/ real SS numbers cannot
qualify for Medicaid..

[sandnsea]

35. Legal workers

That's what that applies to, not illegal workers. And day labor has always been paid cash, no matter what race. It's a benefit to the employer, not the employee. The only ones gaming the system are the employers. Why the hell are those minutemen not down on Wall Street where they might do some good??

[Lindacooks]

17. EXCELLENT find - thank you!!!

[Tim Binh]

18. Here is the rest of the story

Federal fiscal balance for California residents, by origin:

http://books.nap.edu/books/0309063566/html/283.html

State and local fiscal balance for California residents, by origin:

http://books.nap.edu/books/0309063566/html/281.html


As you can see, the total of these two balances averages a negative $10,000 for each Latin American immigrant household. Over 60% of Latin American immigrant families enter illegally. This overall negative balance includes a positive $2465 Social Security balance as alluded to in the story. The positive Social Security balance does not come close to offsetting the negative balance in all the other revenue/expenditure categories.

The next group up from Latin American immigrants is Asian immigrants, with a negative $1700 average fiscal balance per household. There are a few Asian illegal aliens, but the main reason for the negative balance is the large number of Asian political refugees. Since large numbers of Asian political refugees are no longer entering the US, this balance will likely become positive as Asian immigration becomes more dominated by educated professionals.

[EFerrari]

22. Thank you for the myth busting. n/t

[GetTheRightVote]

24. I have known many illegal aliens who are paid cash only so

I do not buy into the total picture of they pay taxes too. No way, their are millions of illegals who are working under false names and getting paid cash as a temp worker when Americans could be working these jobs.

I see alot of it in construction working and land scaping and this is just plain wrong. It breaks the law of the land which is suppose to protect us all from the abuses given by the Corporations in this country to the working class.

Yes, I understand that these illegal workers are meerly the pawns of these Corporations but they are harming the American working class by keeping the wage structure low over all.

[just a girl]

38. Shall we even add to that the many illegals on welfare?

If we're looking at how much they "contribute", we ought to factor in how much we pay out to illegals in welfare checks, their use of the state health plans, etc.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. How do illegals get welfare?

I am anxious to hear how this happens.

[phasev]

65. please enlighten us

How can illegals get welfare without showing the proper identification?

Please enlighten us.

[primavera]

28. Please note he's making between $8.50 and $12.75/hr

To all of those DUers who believe that undocumented workers get hired over US workers because they're willing to work for slave wages in sweat shops, please explain to me again how US workers are really champing at the bits to pick asparagus for the slave wages of twice the minimum wage.

[K8-EEE]

29. McJobs vs. Undocumented Worker Jobs

Here in L.A., it's at least partly a cultural thing, and has to do with hard labor vs. underpaid but "respectable" jobs.

For instance, your average HS grad in L.A. is not going to be going to Goleta or wherever to pick avocados, it is understood this is "wetback" work to use the vulgar street term. Garment factory work is also wetback.

In the article the money he makes is for a car wash job, here in L.A. that's another illegal job, even if thay make the same salary as the sales girl at Bloomingdales. The Bloomies sales girl does get SOME benefits and doesn't have the physical labor.

Undocumented agricultural workers usually make much less than minimum wage, and commonly are "under the table" meaning they don't pay payroll taxes.

The CA agricultural business is absolutely built on cheap illegal labor and everyone knows it. Nobody says anything because they don't want to pay $5 for a head of lettuce, but then they resent the worker for being here.

[primavera]

30. Undocumented wages

Thanks for the reply. Could you please tell me where you're getting your info that undocumented ag workers make less than minimum wage and are paid under the table? My understanding is that farm owners generally pay above board, even for undocumented workers, not out of the goodness of their hearts to be sure, but because they know that if they submit a tax return to the IRS claiming that they ran a million dollar year farming operation and they hired exactly zero workers to do it, there's no way on god's green earth the IRS is ever going to believe them. At which point a cloud of auditors will descend upon them like locusts and promptly put them out of business - hardly a promising business plan for an enterprising farmer.

[K8-EEE]

31. Day Labor

From what I've seen on a segment on the KMEX news here (the spanish language station here in L.A.) -- the way it is done is hiring "foremen" or you know, a certain amount of legit field workers who many times just take pick up trucks and day laborers climb in the back, they film they showed, these guys were getting paid a bag of tacos before the workday and $20 in cash after the work day, which looked to go from sunup to sundown.

That's typically an entry level type job for an illegal, and they try to network their way to a carwash or restaurant or gardening position from there.

My inlaws from Buffalo were shocked to see all the day laborers hanging out in front of Home Depot here on their way from the airport. They don't have that back there. Here every home center has illegals vying for cash jobs. You'd be surprised that it's many times the Cadillac SUV with the "W" sticker that picks up the guys....doubt seriously if there are any W2 forms involved in these transactions!

[sandnsea]

36. Some do, some don't

There are rules on day labor in farming too, and not all agriculture does that anyway. The place I worked paid everybody above board, and deposited all FICA, etc. I know that because I did the payroll and wrote the FICA checks. Illegal workers do pay into FICA, and they don't file an EIC at the end of the year either.

They have those day labor places in the south too, or at least they did when I lived there for a few months back in the 80's.

[K8-EEE]

37. Having My Trees Trimmed By Illegals Right Now No Doubt...

I got this place, this Tree Trimming Company from the yellow pages, the guy comes by, gives me an estimate, then returns with a truckload of obviously just-picked up day labor and he tells them what I told him in Spanish. I'm paying this guy $1,000 but how do I know that he's not copping $900 and giving all these guys $10. I would be shocked if any of this except for the company guy who is licensed is above board. I would be surprised if any of these guys out there busting their ass are citizens or Visa holders.

It's just the reality of labor here in SoCA...if I put my mind to getting a team of US citizens to do this kind of heavy yard work (hauling rocks etc.) I seriously doubt I could find them.

[sandnsea]

39. That makes me vomit

Why are you not calling immigration?

US citizens do that kind of work all the time where I live. They would in SoCA too, if people like you hadn't created the problem yourselves.

You are allowing yourself to be fucked over by whoever owns Tree Trimming Co. In addition, you're contributing to the misery of those workers.

I honestly don't understand what kind of twisted mind would participate in the exploitation of people. I just do not understand it.

[K8-EEE]

40. Oh Chill Out

Get off your high horse. I'm guessing they are illegals, how the hell am I supposed to know? I am just telling you what the situation is here, I didn't create it. My inlaws are from Buffalo and they were shocked to see all the day laborers hanging around, it's a fact of life here. If every illegal immigrant went on strike tomorrow the agriculture, hotels, restaurant and garment industries would come to a screeching halt.

I don't hire illegals directly.

To think that every business I use, that I am going to demand papers or social security cards or Visas from the owners on all their employees is just ridiculous. Do you know who does the overnight stocking at your drug store?

Like I'm going to go to the car wash and play Immigration Officer? PUT DOWN YOUR SPONGES AND GET OUT YOUR GREEN CARDS! LOL! As if!

I've got news for you if you ate a salad today, you exploited workers because if they paid US citizens to pick lettuce it would be $5 a head. If you ate anything or bought anything you probably supported the explotation of somebody somewhere because the system sucks. So shut the hell up, recognize reality and get off your soap box.

[sandnsea]

43. Why this country is fucked

I do everything within my power to avoid exploiting people. I guarantee you if anybody showed up at my house with a truckful of illegals, and you know full well they were, I would send the whole lot on their way. I buy vegetables from a local co-op. I rarely buy anything new.

Hotel and restaurant employees are high school kids and those just out of high school in my town. Of course, Oregon law requires restaurant workers to be paid minimum wage. Restaurant workers make fairly decent money here. We have a couple of small assembly plants and we don't have illegals filling the jobs. I have never understood those arguments from border states because those jobs are filled by US citizens in the rest of the country. Just cheap labor excuses.

[K8-EEE]

47. Oh, The Lecture Circuit....

I'm trying to make a point, not saying it's a good thing, that where I live the situation is has been going on for decades and is completely ingrained -- you can rant about it all you want but it's true TONS of jobs in L.A. are routinely done by cheap illegal labor, so much so that if you were set out to find an alternative you would be hard pressed to find it.

Do people realize that there are entire Mexican towns where HALF the people from there, work here. Like, 500,000 out of a million of some of the border state cities, the residents are in the US. They exist in such a concentration in some of our cities that the whole dynamic of certain kinds of labor has been changed.

In fact there are Mexican politicians who campaign down here because there are more votes to be won down here than at home! I'm telling you this, not good, bad or making any judgement, I'm saying that's the way it is and what should we do about it. I don't think the people in your town are superior although you certainly do -- I think the circumstances are different.

I wish the Mexicans had a better deal at home and that they didn't have to come over here, not because I don't like them but because it's exploitive for all sides the way it is now. Nobody is more exploited than the Mexican worker in Mexico. Until that is addressed they will continue to come here, as I would in their shoes. The have/have not thing in Mexico is appalling. I'm one of the few people I know who refuse to take vacations there -- it's not fun for me to have a cheap luxury resort if I know what the locals are dealing with.

[sandnsea]

48. I grew up in California

During the Chavez farmworker strikes. People were just as rude and insensitive then as they are now. They didn't even care that farmworkers didn't have a toilet, let alone a fair wage or decent place to live. I have been listening to the same crap my entire life.

It's odd that you feel bad about having a cheap luxury resort, but excuse the exploitation on your own property. If you tried, I would bet that you could find US citizens to do your work. It isn't a matter of superiority at all, it's actually a matter of humility. An honest days work isn't sneered at where I live, no matter what kind of work it is.

[PeaceProgProsp]

49. You don't want them exploited, but you'd take their jobs away?

Rather than calling INS, why don't you advocate K8... to call his/her congressperson and ask for the law to change so these people can work legally?

[sandnsea]

53. It's been going on forever

We went through immigration reform already in the 80's. Maybe you didn't know that. Until businesses stop hiring them, nothing is going to change.

[PeaceProgProsp]

61. You have a big heart.

[sandnsea]

63. Yeah I do

I'd like us to focus on trade laws that will lift the rest of the world up so people don't have to leave their homes and be suffocated in semi-trailers or ships' hulls. This is little more than slavery. I don't support anything that keeps human trafficking going.

[PeaceProgProsp]

64. "Human trafficking"? You sound like a 1920s conservative.

That's what they called it -- except they were talking about women. The said that the chinese immigrants came here and stole white women and trafficked them back to China to work in the sex trade.

But I've never heard voluntary immigration into the US called human trafficking. That's a new one. Nobody is stealing immigrants and bringing them into the US. They're coming in voluntarily -- because they want to. Make it harder for them to come and the demand for their labor will be higher, and they'll be willing to take greater risks to come here.

If you're worried about the human condition, you should be arguing for improved wages and protections for all labor, legal and illegal, and you should be arguing that NAFTA -- mobile capital -- doesn't work unless you have mobile labor able to escape oppressive labor markets like Haiti's and work wherever people are paying the most. If the US isn't willing to open its labor markets to foreign competition, then it shouldn't be telling the developing world to open its markets to US products.

[sandnsea]

66. I AM!!!

I don't care how much legal immigration there is at all. Makes no difference to me. This is not a thread about legal immigration, it's about illegal immigration. And as far as I'm concerned, it is HUMAN TRAFFICKING. It's one thing to recognize that you may not know every business that hires illegals, it's another to have them on your own property. That is personal participation in human trafficking in my book. I am tired of all the excuses people use to justify border businesses exploiting illegal immigrants. I say give them all a union card.

I swear I never thought I'd be attacked on a liberal board for standing up for the exploited workers of the world.

I'm going to guess you misunderstood.

[PeaceProgProsp]

67. It seems you don't appreciate that illegal immigrants

choose to be "trafficked." The phrase "human traffic" was used by conservatives to describe the threat caused by mobility, and it was used to argue that white women would be enslaved against their wills by immigrants and shipped off to Shanghai brothels. Fear of mobility has always been a preoccupation of conservatives.

The harder you make it for labor to be as mobile as capital, the more you create the economic circumstances back in Mexico and Guatamala that make them want to traffic themselves, which increases the misery.

Of course, perhaps if the US doesn't try to get in the way of a Mexican government that wants to share the wealth with the people, maybe we'll see Americans start to risk their lives to emmigrate to Mexico for decent jobs (and will you object to that?).

[sandnsea]

68. free market slavery

Your theory does not work. I guess you think Saipan was a great free immigration success.

[PeaceProgProsp]

69. I'm not the one using 1920s conservative catchphrases.

By the way.

I have no idea what you think Saipan has to do with the fact that what you propose is not going to stop desperate people from trying to get into the US so that they can take advantage of the huge disparities in wealth between the US and in developing countries.

In fact, it'll probably just increase the 'human traffic' -- kick out some, and more will come to take their place, so long as you don't address the huge differentials in wealth, and so long as you don't address the things that make it so easy to exploit labor in the US and overseas.

Helping to legitimize the mobility of labor would be a huge improvement.

[sandnsea]

70. Saipan has no immigration laws

US commonwealth that produces clothes labeled "Made in the USA", no immigration or labor laws. Chinese "immigrants" that were not much more than indentured servants, locals with no jobs. That's what it has to do with it. Do you realize you're so far left that you've flipped over to neocon right, and sound just like Tom Delay?

[PeaceProgProsp]

71. "no immigration or labor laws": ie, totally irrelevant to discussion

My argument is that labor rights should be protected -- that mobile work forces should be legitimized.

Do you realize that your arguments are rehashed 1920's right wing arguments?

[sandnsea]

74. They were in Saipan

I really don't care what 1920's crap you want to try and twist this into, you do realize the Democratic Party was about 50% Klan back in those days? So what.

Mobile work forces with people crossing borders freely is EXACTLY what Tom Delay supports and EXACTLY what they had on the Marianas. Labor is not protected.

You cannot protect labor without regulation. It has been proven to not work. Which is why you keep trying to ignore Saipan.

[PeaceProgProsp]

75. I don't doubt racist democrats embraced the "human traffic" mantra in 20s.

It's a very appealing spin on an issue that occludes reality and appeals to people's base instincts. I'm sure you can appreciate that. (By the way, don't let my responding to that part of your post suggest to you that I think your statement that some Democrats belonged to the KKK is at all relevant to my post -- I didn't say that Democrats didn't fall for "human traffic". I said that anti-immigrantion right wingers used it.)

Delay wants people to cross borders and whe wants to exploit them in the US too -- and he doesn't want his racist supporters to know that he feels that way.

I say, don't exploit them, and don't destroy the economy by making the labor force immobile. Share the wealth with people who are willing to work. amd make sure their labor isn't exploited, and do this regardless of where they're born. And if you're afraid of foreigners coming to your city to help your economy develop, then do some research. You'll find that your fears are misplaced.

"It has been proven not to work...": that is so lame. That's not an argument. It's also a sentence with an incredibly vague subject. And I didn't ignore Saipan, but saying I did is probably your last vestige of an argument, so I won't tell you not to enjoy it. (By the way, paragraphs 3 and 4 above are probably my fifth or sixth iteration of why Saipan is not relevant.)

[sandnsea]

76. Just bizarre arguments

I don't care if immigrants work in this country, I've said that over and over and over. It doesn't matter how many times you try to twist me into some sort of racist, it isn't going to make it true.

With your free market slavery strategy, immigrants will be exploited because they won't have the labor protections you say you advocate. How many corporate stories need to be written for you to get it? There is just no other way around it.

Saipan is not lame and not a vague subject. I'm astounded that you could say such a thing.

I support labor and human rights reform all around the world. That will lift people out of poverty. Opening our borders to free market immigration without international reform, is just going to turn this country into a third world nation. Just like Tom Delay wants.

[PeaceProgProsp]

77. Did you really need to reply?

Of course you think my arguments are bizarre. One needs only to reread your posra to know that any sensible argument is going to be bizarre to you.

I have a series of questions for you:

- Do you realize that globalization has created a free market for capital -- it can cross all the borders it wants to cross -- but not a free market in labor?

- Do you realize that this is why globalization is so profitable for American corporations -- they can go where the labor market is exploited and where they can't easily leave to follow the flow of their wealth back to the US?

- Do you realize that the best solution to this problem is reduce disparities by allowing labor to be as free as capital?

- Do you realize that, to achieve this, we would need to allow some balance between reducing the freedom of movement of capital and increasing the freedom of movement of labor?

The last thing I'm arguing for is totally unregulated illegal immigration. However, it's clear that a lot of what is called "illegal" today should probably be legalized and legitimized and that every free trade bill with a developing country should also include provisions which allow that countries labor force a legitimate avenenue for immigrating to America. Exploiting local labor markets due to their lack of mobility shouldn't be the motiviating factor for trade bills.

[sandnsea]

79. We're saying the same thing, almost

I said several posts back that I thought you misunderstood. You went on to call me names and imply that I was some sort of 1920's racist.

All I said was that free market immigration WITHOUT everything else you mentioned would not work. I think if you infuse local foreign economies with loans to people, instead of corporations, AND implement labor and human rights laws, we will be further along the way to improving world economies. We have to change the way we do things here to make us more competitive too, like doing something about health care. I think that's what you basically support.

But, if you think the solution to free market capitalism and the exploitation it's caused is free market labor, then I would completely disagree with that. I'll say it again, that's what they did on the Marianas and it did not work.

[PeaceProgProsp]

81. Correct me if I'm wrong:

What you said, with which I disagree, was your response to the person who thought illegal immigrants were washing his car and trimming his hedges. The short version of your argument, as I understood it, was that if you call the INS every time you see someone you think is an illegal immigrant and you kick them out of the country, you're doing something helpful.

I also disagree with your characterization of illegal immigrantion as human trafficking, because that's a loaded term in this context, and because it doesn't fit the circumstances. Yes, there are people who make money helping illegal immigrants come to the US, but they only exist because illegal immigrants want to come here. You make it harder for people to come here, they just take bigger risks to do what they've always done.

My arguments in the last post are the same arguments I made in my first post.

[sandnsea]

83. So we don't agree

You do support free market immigration without the REST of the necessary changes. That is just going to continue allowing the exploitation of people. I just don't know how you can continue to deny it.

What I support is calling INS against the BUSINESS. I can't imagine why you would support US businesses exploiting people. I don't support going after illegal immigrants at all. But the businesses, hang them.

Wow. People are just being good samaritans by stuffing people into various containers to get them into the US. How many times do people have to be found dead in containers before you will call it what it is, human trafficking.

And people who knowingly participate by hiring illegals are guilty in these deaths.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[K8-EEE]

50. Oh It's All So Clear Now

You are perfection itself and so is your town! I am a horrible person for not demanding to have copies work visas from the workers at the car wash and tree trimming company. Everyone who lives here is evil. Oh I see now...it's all so simple.

RIGHT! Rude and insensitive? Look in the mirror. I'm trying to have an honest conversation and you are being condescending, despite your professed "humility." Please! Any more humble and you'd break your arm patting yourself on the back.

[sandnsea]

54. oh please

Don't turn your guilt around on me.

I'm tired of the excuses. Either the business owners in California need to stand up and make a place for immigrants so people will stop attacking them, or businesses need to stop hiring them. There's a huge difference between a car wash and your own yard too, and you damn well know it.

[K8-EEE]

56. oh thank you

Oh yeah huge difference. In one, I pay the cashier and people from I have no idea where wash my car. In the other, I pay Evergreen Tree Company who comes by with people from I have no idea where and trim my trees.

Totally different and that's good because I don't want to wash the trees or trim the car. You really need to get over yourself.

[sandnsea]

59. No

You need to accept that you're contributing to the plummeting wages and working conditions in this country. Don't rip on me just because I've made choices to not contribute to this mess.

[shantipriya]

41. Illegals & Soc.Security

I don't understand!If they are illegal, how do they get SS#s,and therefore without SS# how does the employer pay the withheld taxes?I hope the employer does not pocket the taxes.
Can someone please explain this to me.

[Megahurtz]

44. Yeah, I totally don't get that one either,

I sounds like someone is really making out in this deal..................BUT WHO???

Hmmmmmmmmmm........I would like to know!

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. It's really pretty easy

to get a fake SS card. Here where I live, those we cash checks for anyone places also issue SS cards and DLs.

[TX-RAT]

73. to get a fake SS card.?

So SS doesn't receive any money on a fake account?

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. I don't know

I just know you can get the fake cards at those places.

[KoKo]

55. I have the same question. They aren't illegal if they have a SS#, so

their wages are deducted and sent to the Government under their number.
If they aren't US citizens then how do they get a SS# in the first place? Is the government collecting these funds illegally? Or, are the SS#'s bogus and the Gov't doesn't know but puts the money in an account under a fake number where it sits forever? :shrug: Must be alot of money collected for years off these people if they can't claim the money that's being deducted.

[hedgetrimmer]

60. You get about six months of use off an illegal SS card, then usually

a flag goes up and they know where you are. If you need one you find out how to get one. I worked and lived in the southwest and the illegals had SS cards to work and that is how I can share this information with you.
Essentially the illegals may be getting boned from every angle. They are illegals and have to pay their protection money. Further, even with all the shelling out they have to do they still are raking in big money compared to home.
One more note if I may, with the heavy illegal community a lot of U.S. dollars are going back to Mexico and leaving our local economies. Economically this trend is bad for the U.S., however good for the people of Mexico and it's local economies.

[Runcible Spoon]

52. please explain to me why THIS thread has only 51 posts since Monday whille

there have been scores of "minutemen" border vigilante threads getting 100's of responses??? This seems to be the more relevant and important issue, not a bunch of redneck yahoos with too much beer, firepower, and free time.

[DulceDecorum]

57. 30,000 U.S. military troops not citizens

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1375426

[hedgetrimmer]

58. Now I know why Bush likes Mexican illegals. Follow the blood money

and you'll find a Bush. Literally, Grandpa sold weapons to the Nazis, Papa did Iran Contra let alone other ignoble acts (Where were you 11/22/63?)... and well the current bunch have got their hands in the pot too... look here for an overview:
Bush Family Value$
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1992/09/bushboys.html

[TX-RAT]

72. Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450

Wow!
Illegal immigrants have Social Security accounts?
Do they just make up a number?
Don't you have to present some form of ID to set up a account?

[LdyGuique]

78. Read some of the articles and material on Center for

Immigration Studies (CIS) -- origin for the SocSec stats

The High Cost of Cheap Labor
Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget

Executive Summary

<. . .>

Social Security and Medicare. Although we find that the net effect of illegal households is negative at the federal level, the same is not true for Social Security and Medicare. We estimate that illegal households create a combined net benefit for these two programs in excess of $7 billion a year, accounting for about 4 percent of the total annual surplus in these two programs. However, they create a net deficit of $17.4 billion in the rest of the budget, for a total net loss of $10.4 billion. Nonetheless, their impact on Social Security and Medicare is unambiguously positive. Of course, if the Social Security totalization agreement with Mexico signed in June goes into effect, allowing illegals to collect Social Security, these calculations would change.

The Impact of Amnesty. Finally, our estimates show that amnesty would significantly increase tax revenue. Because both their income and tax compliance would rise, we estimate that under the most likely scenario the average illegal alien household would pay 77 percent ($3,200) more a year in federal taxes once legalized. While not enough to offset the 118 percent ($8,200) per household increase in costs that would come with legalization, amnesty would significantly increase both the average income and tax payments of illegal aliens.

What’s Different About Today’s Immigration. Many native-born Americans observe that their ancestors came to America and did not place great demands on government services. Perhaps this is true, but the size and scope of government were dramatically smaller during the last great wave of immigration. Not just means-tested programs, but expenditures on everything from public schools to roads were only a fraction of what they are today. Thus, the arrival of unskilled immigrants in the past did not have the negative fiscal implications that it does today. Moreover, the American economy has changed profoundly since the last great wave of immigration, with education now the key determinant of economic success. The costs that unskilled immigrants impose simply reflect the nature of the modern American economy and welfare state. It is doubtful that the fiscal costs can be avoided if our immigration policies remain unchanged.

Continued . . .

[screembloodymurder]

82. Bullshit!

This is Bush propaganda. Who cares how much he contributes? He's here illegally. Who pays for the children he fathers here? Who pays his medical bills? Who pays the unemployed worker whose job he took? All these rich people want is cheap domestic help. These people are economic slaves.

[hezekkia]

84. bump n/t

[slackmaster]

86. But they's gonna take our nyobs!

:dunce: