ACLU files petition on behalf of witch--

[rodeodance]

I bet the Right Wing is having a cow.



http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD/MGArticle/RTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031782407984

ACLU files petition on behalf of witch

BY MEREDITH BONNY
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER

Apr 28, 2005


The American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia has filed a petition on behalf of Cynthia Simpson, a witch of the Wiccan faith, seeking to reverse a ruling that upheld Chesterfield County's decision to bar her from giving the invocation at Board of Supervisors meetings.

In its petition yesterday to the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, the ACLU said it has asked the full court to reverse a three-judge panel ruling that allowed government officials to discriminate on the basis of religion when choosing people to pray at their meetings.

"Our position is a simple one," said Kent Willis, executive director of the ACLU of Virginia. "We cannot find any instance in American jurisprudence allowing the government to officially prefer some religions over others. Indeed, all we can find is the opposite -- repeated admonitions against the government when it discriminates on the basis of religion."


....Willis said the ACLU is "hoping that the full 4th Circuit will bring a fresh perspective to this case and strike down Chesterfield's discriminatory prayer policy.".......


{RELATED

ACLU files petition on behalf of Wiccan witch

Court rules against Wiccan

Wiccan, county make their cases

Court to hear Wiccan's appeal}

[Midlodemocrat]

1. This has been such a big story down here.

They are missing the bigger picture....no religious groups should be praying at these meetings. What part of separation of church and state don't they get?

[Pacifist Patriot]

4. I've actually broached this subject with the by-laws committee...

of my local Democratic Executive Committee. We have an invocation at the beginning of our monthly meetings routinely delivered by the same Christian minister. Aside from his verbage not reflecting my personal beliefs, I don't think an invocation of any sort is either advisable or necessary. And I'm a minister.

[rodeodance]

16. yes, most of meetings-including Congress think it is a necessity

[sybylla]

26. I agree, but I enjoy our invocation for our Dem annual dinner

I am not a xtian and find most invocations offensive, asking me to "assume a position of reverence" and endorse a xtian prayer to a xtian god.

The only exception I've ever found is the invocation given at my Dem party annual dinner. We have a wonderful Methodist minister who comes from quite a distance thanks to an old friendship in the party. And his invocation is so rousingly anti Repub and pro Dem that at the end, you can't help but say A-men. It's very non-denominational with no mention of "the Lord our Father" our Jesus Christ. And it's a prayer that's gotten *applause* each of the past three years.

[hollowdweller]

93. I'm really happy to see somebody finally doing this!

As long as nobody that the majority does not agree with asks to participate in their insertion of religion into the state, they will never understand why church and state are seperate. I think they should have asked to display the Charge of the Goddess, alongside the ten commandments monument down in Alabama.

[Dervill Crow]

127. Or at least the abbreviated version of the Wiccan Rede.

An ye harm none, do what ye will. Takes up less space on the wall but would pretty much cover the most important of the Ten Commandments.

[Sabriel]

2. That reminds me... I need to donate to them again. n/t

[underpants]

3. WRVA (home to Rush and Glen Beck) has been on this for two weeks

Yes this is not going to go over well around here and mostly for that reason I support her. I also support her because as a Faith (it is right?) she should be allowed to say the whateveryoucallit.

I don't know much about Wiccans. Are they really witches?

[Patiod]

5. Nah, not witches

I have a friend who is a Wiccan, and we got to Mid-Summer and Mid-Winter Soltice parties/ceremonies all the time. Mostly pagen stuff - some of it's pretty cool, like writing down troubles and burning the slips of paper, etc.

Not my deal, but not a whole lot wackier then my mother putting out a statue of the Vigin Mary when she wants good weather for a party, either.

One principal I really like it the "rule of three" which says that whatever you put out therre (negative energy, destructiveness, charity, revenge, hostility, kindness, good works) comes back at you times three. Not a bad rule to live by!

[Eloriel]

11. Does it work for your mother?

:evilgrin:

Seriously, I'd like to know what her results are.

And yes, just as Walt said, Wiccans = witches. Wicca = witchcraft.

[Lilith Velkor]

126. That's not true.

Some witches come from family traditions. The Appalachian witches I've met never even heard of Gerald Gardner, nor do they care.

Witchcraft is a practice, the European version of shamanism. Wicca is a religion. Do you see the difference?

[LostinVA]

12. Yes, we DO call ourselves witches

And, just for the uneducated non-Pagans, there are many forms of Wicca.

I live close to Richmond, and this is indeed a big story here. There's a thriving Pagan community where I live, and a decent one in Richmond, too. However, I live in a university town, so...

[rodeodance]

17. love it -thanks

....One principal I really like it the "rule of three" which says that whatever you put out therre (negative energy, destructiveness, charity, revenge, hostility, kindness, good works) comes back at you times three. Not a bad rule to live by!

[LostinVA]

19. Also, the Rede

Basically, it's like the Golden Rule.

[tavalon]

75. And it harm none

do what you will.

Yep, an awful lot like the golden rule.

[Triana]

44. yep. Makes a lot more sense than "God Hates Faggots"..

doesn't it? I'm a little bit pagan/wiccan myself. :)

[Walt Starr]

6. Hi, I'm Walt Starr and I'm a Witch

Yes, Wiccans are Witches.

[BR_Parkway]

67. Pardon my ignorance, but I thought guys would be called warlocks?

[Behind the Aegis]

68. Only in the movies

"Witch" is a term for males and females. "Warlock" is thought to be a word of Scottish origin that meant "oath-breaker." The 'oath' that was 'broken' was with G-d. Although, it could be applied to those who just broke promises.

[tavalon]

76. Beat me to it

I suppose some Wiccan sects use the term warlock but most eschew it.

[LostinVA]

81. That's considered quite derogatory n/t

[shadowknows69]

92. a widely held misconception n/t

Literal meaning was traitor if I'm not mistaken. We don't like to be called traitors.

[BR_Parkway]

124. Thank you for correcting me on that

[Midlodemocrat]

7. Bigger issue, I think.

They shouldn't be saying prayers before a meeting of the Board of Supervisors, IMHO. But, if they are going to continue this practice, they need to include this woman, regardless of how they feel about the faith she practices.

[underpants]

9. Right that is how I feel about it

They can either not have them (you can still pray outside or in your car on the way over right?) or the have them everyone in the county can propose someone to perform their ceremony.

[Midlodemocrat]

10. Frankly, this Board is so corrupt and shitty

that they really shouldn't be wasting county time and money on this issue. I am going to run for Supervisor when Renny Humphrey's term is up. She is garbage.

[rodeodance]

21. yes, you are right. It is discrimination (imho) plain and simple.

[tavalon]

77. Yes and yes n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Another answer

There are already some great answers to your question, but not all witches are Wiccans. There are quite a few of us from different paths and, believe it or not, there are even Christian witches! I am a witch, but not Wiccan.

[Mojorabbit]

27. ditto n/t

[frictionlessO]

28. Righty ho there Aegis!! See we are brethren of sorts!! n/t

[tavalon]

74. We've pretty much ditched the word "witch"

for the religion title of "Wicca". I think the word is Gaelic (sure could be wrong about this) for witch.

Wicca also happens to be the fastest growing religion in the US. Kinda pisses off the fundies.

[LostinVA]

105. All of the Wiccas I know (about 80) are witches

And, the word is probably Anglo-Saxon. Wicca was unknown to the Celts.

[leftofcool]

8. Thank the Goddess for the ACLU!!!!!!!!!!!

and ankh is you love Isis!

[rodeodance]

22. the ACLU lost with Rush L. today. Wish them good luck with this one.

[shadowknows69]

36. ankh ankh!!

blessed be.

[benburch]

13. Excellent.

Wicca is NOT small religion, BTW. There are upwards of a million Wiccans and Pagans in North America.

[LostinVA]

14. You speak the truth, Benburch

Merry Meet!

[Greyskye]

18. Not to mention

Wicca is NOT small religion, BTW. There are upwards of a million Wiccans and Pagans in North America.

And there are a lot of us out here that don't consider ourselves Wiccan (and would never show up in surveys as such), but are absolutely sympathetic to the underlying philosophy. Such as the "Law of Three" mentioned above. :grouphug:

[LostinVA]

39. Very true! And thank you for that, Greyskye! I am not anti-Xian

by any means, either. My whole family and most of my friends are. There's a lot of good stuff in there, it's just not my spiritual path. (if you are Christian; if not, sorry for the assumption!)

[Greyskye]

115. LOL

No, I'm not Christian. My ex-wife considered herself Wiccan; for years I considered my self a neo-Pagan of the "Smorgasbordian" variety. I'd pick a little bit of this tradition, a little of this one over here, etc.

These days, more than a decade later, I consider myself more of a secular humanist than anything else. Although I still live my life by the Law of Three, and have always reaped the benefits that this philosophy has brought to myself and my loved ones.

[LostinVA]

15. It REALLY ticks me off that the article says she "calls"`

herself a witch. That's like saying, he "calls" himself a minister, or "calls" herself a Lutheran. It is a REAL religion, and she is legal clergy. People really need to be educated about what all Paganism is, especially Wicca. There are so many snide, nasty misconceptions and downright lies.

[rodeodance]

20. yes, to the people involved it is a Religion (big R). but not christian

so..... well. guess they do not count.

[benburch]

30. Well, I think the reporter or editor was being careful...

Not wanting you to think they were name calling.

Like if they wrote about me; "Ben calls himself 'a slut'." that gives a totally different impression from writing "Ben is a slut." Although both are great advertisements for getting me laid...

[LostinVA]

42. I get the point... ARE you a slut, by the way???

[benburch]

62. Of course! nt

[LostinVA]

82. Cool! I'm a reformed one! n/t

[shadowknows69]

32. It might help the perception people have of wiccans

If they dropped the whole witchcraft thing. Right or wrong there are too many negative connotations throughout history. You can explain what your religion is without accessing the "W" word. A shield goes up in non-pagan brains when they hear this.

[arikara]

33. A witch is a witch

Xtians too often confuse the old religion with devil worship and nothing could be further from the truth. As you said, a shield goes up in the brain when they hear the word witchcraft, but a lot of other things make that shield pop up as well. What they really need is a better education but that's probably too much to ask for.

[shadowknows69]

35. "witch" is a slang term

Wicca is the religion. All I'm saying is some Wiccans seem to enjoy throwing that term around to describe their religion and I think it would be taken more seriously if people didn't have to get by that word. For the record I was Wiccan once (perhaps still am) I consider myself more a non-descript pagan now as I don't adhere to any one philosophy of Wicca. Do you practice pure Gardner Wicca or an amalgam of beliefs? I think some Wiccan purists would take issue with some of the self-named "witches". Also remember the Bible never said "thou shalt not suffer a Wiccan to live". In these times with the xtian right gaining scary power I just think it wise not to help them fan the flames.

[LostinVA]

40. I know alot of Christians who take issue w/ self-named Xians

And, you certainly do NOT have to be Gardernian Wicca to be true Wicca. That is definitely not "pure" Wicca. There are many paths of Wicca and Paganism, and I would never presume to state one is more superior than the other.

[shadowknows69]

48. I didn't say it was the only kind but

Gardner is pretty much responsible for the religion as it is organized today. Our best friend when describing our pagan beliefs is to reference the people who established the doctrines. That's mainly why I don't refer to myself as Wiccan because I am lax in keeping the religion's dogma. I lose respect for anyone who professes a religion and doesn't keep most of the established sacraments. Spirituality is a personal thing. A religion has an organized and established set of rituals and ceremony. All I was saying is just like the many denominations of Christianity I've seen Wiccans of differrent traditions at each other's throats.

[LostinVA]

83. But they didn't really establish the doctrines, only certain traditions

That are descended from Gardener's ideas. I'm Reclaiming myself, which some people (including many Reclaimers) wouldn't even call Wicca, since it's a direct offshoot of the Feri Tradition. I call myself Wicca because Starhawk does, and she's the one who established Reclaiming. But, I understand why some in this tradition don't.

Wicca is not a set religion anymore than Christianity is, and saying Gardener is "the one, true faith" goes COMPLETELY against what both the various forms of Wicca and Paganism in general stands for. So, I courteously disagree with you on this. When I was a Catholic, I would have never held the conceit that if you weren't Catholic, you weren't a real Christian.

[shadowknows69]

91. I didn't mean to impy that your version of the faith

was in any way inferior. Just saying that I've experienced such predjudice. As I'm sure you've encountered pagan elitists too. I assure you I'm not one and I hope there are no hard feelings.

[LostinVA]

96. Pagan elitists??? WTF are you talking about??? HAHAHA!!!

Why, I have NEVER met one! And yes, that's who I thought you were... "My tradition (or version of) is so much better than yours., and I am sooo much more witchier than you. I hold a Googleteenth Degree in the Majestic Paisley Wand. AND I had tea with Victor Anderson. How about you?" *gag*

[shadowknows69]

99. lol

wow didn't mean to sound like one. If anything I'm a pagan with self image problems lol. As I said I don't call myself Wiccan because I'm too lazy to do ritual every esbat or sabbat.

[LostinVA]

106. I understand -- I'm lazy too.

I just have a group of people I can do rituals with, so that makes it easier. I mediate several times a week, too, and consider that a "ritual" in its own way.

Don't have a self-image problem! The belief and intent is more important to the ritual. Don't get hung up on that too much.

[LostinVA]

38. Umm... "dropping the whole witchcraft thing"? Seriously?

The Craft IS the religion, and if you were once Wicca, you would know that. That is no different than telling a Catholic to drop that whole transubstantiation thing -- it sounds like cannibalism, and throws a shield up. Or, hey! You Jewish guy, what's with the yarmulke, man? Stop wearing it -- it makes people think you're weird.

I actually find this very insulting. No one has a right to tell me how to identify myself and my spirituality. It's THEIR fault for not educating themselves.

And, if I hear Pagans called a Satan worshiper one more time... we don't believe in Satan. Satan is a Judeo-Christian belief.

[Triana]

45. Very well said LostinVA!

"we don't believe in Satan. Satan is a Judeo-Christian belief."

:applause:


My mother (Xtian, love her to pieces but..) insists my 'paganism' is satan worship. Arrrrgh, it's annoying and I cannot convince her it is anything but. Oh well. I've never said the above to her. I WILL next time. It might just shut her up about it!

[LostinVA]

46. Maybe she's seen "Rosemary's Baby" one too many times

Although, I must say I kinda like it, in its campy, 60's, Ruth-Gordon-as-Satan-lover-Sociopath way....

Let me know what she says if you tell her the above about Satan! My Mom (RC), tells me she's just glad I'm not an atheist.

[Triana]

70. I don't think she's ever seen Rosemary's Baby...

..that's the funny thing. She got her ideas elsewhere, apparently. I'll keep you posted, although this comes up very infrequently (not often). I've just never had an excellent come-back - until now!

[LostinVA]

84. Don't give me complete credit on this -- it came up during a discussion

with my mom, when she asked me if I had sacrificed any babies lately (she was teasing).

Good luck with your mom. Maybe you can take her to a Samhaim rite some time.

[shadowknows69]

49. I'm not trying to insult you

I was merely stating that we could do more ease tensions and dispel predjudices by slightly changing our rhetoric occasionally. To say it's their fault for not learning it is simply naive. Do you read the bible daily to keep up with the fundies? Perhaps you do. Anyhoo, I think you just missed my point. No harm meant. Merry meet and merry part.

[LostinVA]

85. Actually, I know the Bible better than most Fundies!

I taught CCD for many years, minored in comparative theology in college, and still read quite a bit of theology. It's a wonderful "weapon" against intolerance.

I still disagree with you that it's my job to allow "them" to frame my spiritual life and argument. And no, I'm not being naive. I'm too old and cynical for that. I've met too many people in my life who refuse to educate themselves -- they are willfully ignorant, even when the facts are presents to them in a way that IS toned down. I'm not condemning people who are truly ignorant of the facts.

But, I'm not wanting to fight with you, Shadow! Merry meet and merry part. Have a nice Beltane.

[shadowknows69]

95. You too lost

I'm a former "fundy" myself and have read the bible cover to cover several times. I much prefer arguing with Christians. I call truce. peace always be yours lost.


P.S. You've actually made me see that maybe I should call myself a witch again. I mean if my beliefs and heart is true why not right?food for thought.

[LostinVA]

97. No worries, Shadow.

Didn't mean to get so defensive. It just felt like the same-old-same-old, you know? As I said, I consider myself almost more on the shaman path, but I do honor many Wicca rites and beliefs, and don't think the two are exclusive.

Blessings.

[LeftCoast]

125. Dupe

Edited because someone already said this better than I did. :)

[Dervill Crow]

128. That's their problem.

If a Wiccan wants to call him/herself a witch it is perfectly appropriate. Much more so than Shrub calling himself a Christian. As a long-time Christian, even though I no longer follow that faith, I am much more offended by *'s misrepresentation of himself.

[onehandle]

23. The ACLU filed for Jerry Falwell.

The right wing can kiss my ass.

[renaissanceguy]

103. Of course they only like it when it applies to THEM.

But as we are seeing, rules always change to accomodate their needs.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.21272015

[NAO]

25. We need a Pagan Faith Based Initiative

Some friendly local coven operating a food kitchen, or using traditional herbal remedies to help recovering addicts.

Then they could apply for taxpayer funds as a "faith based social program".

EITHER the fundies would have to live with their tax dollars going to support paganism...

OR they would try to block it and be forced to admit that providing funds to Christian groups but not Pagan groups is a clear violation of the establishment clause, by showing favoritism for one religion over another.

[bobthedrummer]

29. Most witches are good, they've got a bad reputation though.

With the fundies in BFEE it's like Salem, Massachusetts before "The Crucible" was written.

OTOH, it's like the anti-Pope hysteria displayed by some DUers recently too.

[LostinVA]

41. Your post is kinda strange to me, and I'm not baiting

"Most witches are good"? Would we write "most Christians are good," "most women are good," "most Asians are good"? Pagans, whether Wicca or not, are people -- some of good, some of bad, some are poseurs, some are tall, some thing, etc.

[bobthedrummer]

102. I'm not responsible for the perceptions my posts are filtered through

but I do own up to the construction of words, I added the caveat that witches have a bad reputation. My wife was a former High Priestess over 13 covens in Milwaukee. I mean how strange is that? She's also a bass player, lol.

[arikara]

123. I like your response

"I'm not responsible for the perceptions my posts are filtered through but I do own up to the construction of words..." mind if I borrow it some time?


:)

[blondeatlast]

31. This Christian says--

GO ACLU!

Better yet, let's get rid of the practice of invocation completely.

[Miss Chybil]

34. Good idea. nt

[sweetheart]

37. Samantha Stevens comes full circle

A new generation of Jedi witches wants legitimacy. Sounds good, just
as long as we can bring our light sabres and wookies to meetings. ;-)

[Bigmack]

43. How about invocations of Satan?

I don't believe in ANY of the Occult... saints, angels, gods, goddesses, demons, or whatever... but isn't devil-worship a religion, too?

When I was teaching, our district had a speaker for staff that talked about gangs, drugs, and devil-worship. His head actually exploded when I said I didn't think we should advocate or attack any belief in any faith.

My tongue is half in my cheek on this, but really.... satan worship isn't illegal, is it? I'd give YOUR left nut to watch the fundies endure a congressional invocation to satan.

[LostinVA]

47. Satanism is considered a legitimate religion

I personally neither believe nor agree with it, but I also don't believe I have a right to tell someone that. However, from, what I've read, real Satan worshipers basically worship their self, in that they have a right to think of themselves first. I'm putting this very badly, but it's more that than Black Masses and drinking blood.

[eridani]

73. Yes, and it's a Christian heresy

Most pagans think that Satanists have the potential to become real pagans, but need to get over the basic Christian premises of Satanism. Or, as one Wiccan I know put it "We aren't interested in worshipping your god--why would you think we'd be interested in worshipping your devil?"

[tavalon]

79. Well put n/t

[LostinVA]

86. Hmmm... very interesting concept

I've heard it kinda put that way, but not quite as clearly as you did in this post (ie, Satanists are Pagans except that they can't quite "get over" their Christian beliefs).

[tavalon]

78. Yes

I once met a couple of devil worshippers who were very thoughtful and had interesting reasons for why they believed as they did. It was a very interesting conversation.

[Mondon]

50. This is not helpful

to those who think that perhaps now isn't the best time to get the masses pissed off at another judge.

[davsand]

51. Yep, I'm a witch. There are people in the US who would kill me for that.

So be it. I am what I am, and if the term witch offends, it is YOUR problem not mine. Call us whatever you will, but we are no two of us alike, and no two of us will see anything the same way every time.

I find it terribly funny that the right to freedom of religion (that the fundies are ALWAYS pissing and moaning about) stops when it gets to ANYTHING that isn't the traditional Judo-Christian garden variety thing.

Don't ya just once want to see a bill for a "faith based" drug rehab program--that is based on Satanism? Imagine the entire discussion you could have about re-addiction rates in that setting... I think the GOP would leave SKIDMARKS when they ran away from THAT one.

Makes that invocation thing seem pretty minor--eh?


Laura

[Mondon]

52. "kill you"?

Paranoid much?

[shadowknows69]

53. Yeah I'll bet all the dead abortion doctors were paranoid too.

Never under estimate the ability to kill for beliefs. "Thou shal not suffer a witch to live" and all that. If they thought they could get away with it they would.

[Mondon]

54. Unless abortions are part of your ritual,

you're probably OK.

[shadowknows69]

55. no but Wiccans tend to be pro-choice

which is just as bad right?

[Mondon]

56. probably there is a nutbag out there

who thinks so, I suppose

[shadowknows69]

58. Oh I imagine there are whole groups of them

forget the right wing lunatics at the Terri Schaivo vigils already?

[mondo joe]

57. Except those same fundys think witches are satanic. There are

witches who have received death threats and have been pressured to move.

I'm not a witch, not a wiccan, not even religious at all - but I think they have good reason to be "paranoid".

[Mondon]

59. wasn't aware

of the death threats....yikes.

[shadowknows69]

61. we are the agents of the devil himself to them

even though we keep trying to tell them he doesn't actually exist.

[tavalon]

80. Boy we had some interesting drive bys

when we would have backyard rituals (yes, clothed).

[gypsy11]

118. Here in Connecticut

A while back, some people burned down a Wiccan gathering place. I remember hearing about it, must have been 5 years ago now.

[shadowknows69]

60. I studied under a Preistess

who routinely got anonymous death threats. Also (twilight zone time) there was one church she had butted heads with that she (and I) were convinced were attempting to attack us psychically. That's right kids. Christian black magic. Don't think so? Magick is Magick whether you're calling the four direction and the elements for your circle or taking holy communion. It's all sympathetic magick and used properly and with malicious intent can hurt people.

[LostinVA]

88. Ha! I know someone who's aunt tried to "exorcise" him

He was like, exorcise me of WHAT? Then, she said her prayer circle prayed for his soul every Wednesday from 8-9, because their prayers would go into his soul and drive the Devil out. Bizarre....

For all of the non-Pagans reading all of this, even if a Pagan doesn't live by the Rede, they tend to live by something like that, and harming others in ANY way is a major no-no.

[shadowknows69]

90. I don't know if you've ever experienced psychic attack or not

Lost. but I'm convinced these people tried something on us. Wasn't that easy to fight off either.

[LostinVA]

98. I am not discounting it, trust me.

Some of them are just so nuts, I don't think they believe in anything enough to use their energy at ball. But, I fully believe they focused negative energy on you -- I've seen it happen. Bad times.

[shadowknows69]

100. It was bizzare

and frightening. Came in a dream (here's where half the board says: Well then it was just a dream you idiot) Wish it was. I was lucid within the dream and I was fighting what looked and felt like some really nasty critters bad thing is I couldn't wake up from it despite the fact I was screaming at my mind to do just that. Attack or not someone decided I needed the combat training. B-)

[shadowknows69]

101. It actually makes me sad for them

devout Christians can be incredibly powerful beings. Too bad they attribute all miracles to a smoky ancient deity instead of embracing their own magick. If the Bible didn't have such a negative view on psychic powers (and I don't think it really does. The book is full of prophets after all) Chrisitans could be such a bigger force for good on this earth. One thing I have to give pentecostal churches is they unashamedly revel in the energy that their worship raises. I went to and Assemblies of God because of the mystique and power of it. Speaking in toungues, being slain in the spirit. These are all things I experienced and believe. It was when these same people who reveled in the magick of Christianity started telling me that my personal magick was of the devil (HUH?) that they lost me.

[LostinVA]

107. What tradition do you follow?

Reclaiming or even Feri may be a good spiritual path. Reclaiming especially: it's ecstatic, and no set rituals, very free-flowing.

[shadowknows69]

108. hodge podge

I originally studied Gardner, then Buckland's complete book of witchcraft. Lady Laurie Cabot and Lady Sybil Leek. Pagan history books I could find. I lean towards greek Gods and Goddesses. Sprinkles of shamanism. I studied under a couple Wiccans but it was mostly basic magick and chakra work not so much learning traditions. I've basically almost always been a solitary. I don't really have the time or inclination to practice with others right now (even if I could find them here) and I've been kind of dissillusioned by some I've met recently for reasons we've already discussed. It's not time for me to be a full fledged "witch" again yet but I may be starting back on that path.

[MountainLaurel]

120. Not to mention

Losing custody of your kids, losing your job, having Molotov cocktails thrown through your storefront window.

Paranoid, my ass.

[Shallah Kali]

63. Some of the fundy sects want to give the death penalty to witches

Not just doctors who perform abortions. They also want to execute homosexuals, astrologers, women who aren't chaste, and rebellious teens.

More info here:
http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5628&abbr=cs_

As if this were not controversial enough, Christian Reconstructionists also advocate an extreme vision of social policy. Citing passages from the Old Testament Books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus, many Reconstructionists would institute the death penalty for a number of offenses, among them striking or cursing a parent, adultery, homosexuality, "unchastity," rape of a betrothed virgin, witchcraft, "incorrigible" juvenile delinquency, blasphemy and propagation of "false" religious doctrines. Some favor stoning as the biblically preferred means of execution.

Reconstructionists also argue that the Bible sanctions some forms of slavery and accords women a second-class status. One Reconstructionist writer, Steve Schlissel, has asserted that the "God-ordained order" places "God above all, man joyfully under God, woman lovingly under man, and the animals at bottom."

[Mondon]

64. Holy sh_t

I stand corrected.

[truthisfreedom]

66. makes the descriptive phrase "American taliban" pale by comparison, huh?

[entanglement]

72. "Some favor stoning as the biblically preferred means of execution..."

Seems like they want to take to follow in the footsteps of their fundie brethren in Afghanistan

[Shallah Kali]

114. Yep but with stoning instead of beheadings in soccer stadiums

I wonder how much more political power do these people need to get before someone decides there is no need to wait for state executions.... :fear:

[LostinVA]

87. No, she isn't. Read the news much?

People are STILL being persecuted for this. That's why many Pagans are "in the closet" at work, and even with family members. They've been fired, had their kids taken away, been raped, etc. There's the one lady in SC that had had her pets tortured and killed, been threatened with death, etc. There are some real "Christian" whackos out there, who really believe you shouldn't suffer a witch to live. I'm lucky enough to live in a very accepting community, and a basically accepting work environment. If they weren't, I'd live in fear.

on edit: I missed your "stand corrected" down the thread. My apologies for sounding nasty!

[Shallah Kali]

113. Parrot's death latest threat to woman in prayer case

http://www.heraldonline.com/local/story/3748843p-3355792c.html

About a dozen pagans gathered at Town Hall on Monday to show support for Great Falls resident Darla Wynne. Last week, Wynne returned home from dinner with a friend and discovered one of her parrots had been beheaded and his heart cut out, she said.

A note attached to the back of Little One, Wynne's 8-year-old African gray parrot, said, "You're next!"

SNIP

Last week's incident was one of a string of break-ins at Wynne's home. Great Falls police have responded to at least 10 calls of reported vandalism at her residence in the past year or so, Revels said.

SNIP

Many of the town's 2,200 residents regard Wynne as a witch and disapprove of her pagan faith, she said. The vandalism has ranged from destruction of her cars to several of her animals being poisoned, Wynne said.

[Sivafae]

121. Crucible Much?

What did you think Arthur Miller was writing about a "supposed" history? Was that whole play fantasy? No. It was a fictional account of WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED in the US. There was a trial, and there was decision to kill these women. These women were killed.
Despite your attempt at trivializing the history surrounding Witchcraft, people who have either called themselves witches, or have been called witches, have been killed. And here in the "new world."
Like it or lump it, but there is still a fear amongst some witches that indeed there will be a return back to the times when one could be persecuted for their beliefs. This fear is based on actual history. Not some paranoid delusion that everyone is out to get them.

[truthisfreedom]

65. we need a voice screaming this fact: bushco/roveco is bringing satanists

into government. they are doing it by bringing Christianity into government, and then it will be the Muslims, the Hindus, and every other faith, because there can be no discrimination. and in the end, every single faith will be represented. including the satanists.

[LostinVA]

89. I Had a priest tell me once many priests don't believe in a "Devil"

Because they find it superstitious and heresy. They at least know that it was something created by the Early Church to demonize indigenous Pagan religions, and to especially make "evil" various incarnations of Pan, The Horned God, etc. They, like me, believe there IS evil in this world, but it comes from people, not some creature with horns and a tail.

[depakid]

69. Bigots are bigots

No matter what faith they are. That's all I've ever seen the fundies as- a bunch of ignorant and bigoted people who have no respect for the law or care EVEN THE SLIGHTEST about what America used to stand for.

[Jamastiene]

71. I'm not sure how to feel.

Either they allow the witch to do her thing too or get rid of the prayer at board meetings altogether. Allowing one religion and not another is definitely discrumination.

[renaissanceguy]

104. That's why we have to fight for our courts.

Pretty soon, fundie Xianity will be the only religion allowed in this country.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.21272015

[Tesla]

94. Witches are people too!!!!

[PATRICK]

109. ACLU should

for the sake of its intentions and cause take on the destructive issue of unfair news and PR making them their own worst enemy in the ca7use for civil rights. You could win all these cases and set back the cause of civil rights(and lawyers) a hundred years(though I guess that is happening already in other quarters).

Advocating for dupes being used to destroy election accountability was a real whopper compared to this grist for the rage mills humiliation. Someone has to be broadening the scope of this "neutral" tool to include the broad picture of civil rights, since both the individual and the majority will suffer catastrophically under the noble narrowness of ACLU goals.

[HuckleB]

110. HISTORY OF WICCA -- Partly real; partly imaginary

I think this is a fair piece on Wicca:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_hist.htm

[Tyler Durden]

116. History of ALL RELIGIONS--Partly real; partly imaginary.

Actually that's the take on all religion, and on OTHER religions from INSIDE a "sect" taken as a point of reference.

[HuckleB]

119. True enough.

A little more true in regard to Wicca, IMHO.

[zara]

111. Support her right to spout looniness!

Next thing you know she'll be claiming a virgin birth!
Too close to home?
: )

[underpants]

112. LOL

Too close to home?

HAHAHAHAHA

[Ysolde]

117. As a blue-girl living....

in a very red state, I've always wondered why we can't come up with the funds to create a monument to Shiva, an obelisk for Isis, a slate pentagram, etc. and have each one planted next to the Ten Commandments? I'm soooo tired of the bs out of the Fristians. ...attack on people of faith... What rot! They're hypocrits and they know that most Americans, and especially those of faith, would not tolerate a single, state religion, so they claim to be supportive of people of faith and that's their agenda. We Dems, Greens, liberals, progresives, and people of faith need to be working toward getting alternatives to the Fristians in front of every legislature, city council, football game, etc. We have got to call them on their words and force them to eat them!

[Roland99]

122. What did * say last night about freedom to express religous beliefs?

Or was that just talk?