Vietnam vets in Iraq see 'entirely different war'

[Barrett808]

Vietnam vets in Iraq see 'entirely different war'
By Steven Komarow, USA TODAY
Tue Jun 21, 7:19 AM ET

Before dawn, the pilots digest their intelligence briefing with coffee. The sun rises as they start preflight checks. Just after 7:30, they start rotors turning on their UH-60A Black Hawk, and ease it smoothly into the desert sky. Chief Warrant Officers DeWayne Browning and Randy Weatherhead will take off and land a dozen times this hot day, ferrying infantry troops battling

...

Browning, 56, of Paradise, Calif., and Weatherhead, 57, of Elk Grove, Calif., are grandfathers. They first flew combat missions in Vietnam, before most of the soldiers in the current Army were born. They and others their age are here with the National Guard's 42nd Infantry Division, which includes some of the oldest soldiers to serve in combat for the modern U.S. Army. Few soldiers or officers in the military, other than the service's top generals, are as old.

If there are parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, these graying soldiers and the other Vietnam veterans serving here offer a unique perspective. They say they are more optimistic this time: They see a clearer mission than in Vietnam, a more supportive public back home and an Iraqi population that seems to be growing friendlier toward Americans.

"In Vietnam, I don't think the local population ever understood that we were just there to help them," says Chief Warrant Officer James Miles, 57, of Sioux Falls, S.D., who flew UH-1H Hueys in Vietnam from February 1969 to February 1970. And the Vietcong and North Vietnamese were a tougher, more tenacious enemy, he says. Instead of setting off bombs outside the base, they'd be inside.

"I knew we were going to lose Vietnam the day I walked off the plane," says Miles, who returned home this month after nearly a year in Iraq. Not this time. "There's no doubt in my mind that this was the right thing to do," he says.

(more)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20050621/ts_usatoday/vietnamvetsiniraqseeentirelydifferentwar

A volley in the new propaganda offensive?

[Karenina]

1. The key word is

PILOTS.

[democracyindanger]

2. ding ding ding

[fryguy]

9. circling above it at 500 feet it's different

Down in the street, it's unforgiving.

[Herkdrvr]

62. And I'm sure it's different...

being shot at with rifles, RPGs, SA-7 and SA-14 missiles, and not having anywhere to go to hide. Flying helicopters is not free of danger. Those guys fly in very hot environments (and no, I don't mean "hot" as in heat, I mean ground fire), and they live at airfields that get attacked all the time by mortars, rockets, suicide bombers and snipers. Yes, if you're a pilot you've got it made and you live in a Hilton and no one can touch you at 500 feet...WHATEVER.

[progressivebydesign]

15. The key word is: Propoganda.

More feelgood stuff from our Masters.

[saigon68]

80. You got it

[Hobarticus]

20. My thoughts exactly!

Get on the ground for awhile, whirlybird...see how that works for ya.

[Herkdrvr]

61. So you think that PILOTS don't have to deal with danger?

Tell that to an Army helicopter pilot to his or her face...tell that to a C-130 pilot who just dodged a bunch of missile shots, or tell that to the A-10 pilot who's tent city just got hit with a mortar attack.

Don't be a tool and assume that anyone not in the infantry isn't in the thick of it.

[democracyindanger]

66. Read the reasons they think it's different.

"They see a clearer mission than in Vietnam, a more supportive public back home and an Iraqi population that seems to be growing friendlier toward Americans."

Nobody's arguing that they're not in danger--they're wrong if they do. Being pilots, there's no way they have the face-to-face contact that infantry patrolling Baghdad neighborhoods or manning checkpoints do. Which is certainly reason to doubt their assesment that the "population...seems to be growing friendlier toward Americans."

[getmeouttahere]

3. They're not on the ground....

bombing from 30,000 feet is the only way we can fight wars now. And that's not going to win the hearts and minds of anyone!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

4. No fool like an old fool

Speaking as someone of that generation, I can only say that once a moran, always a moran.

The sad truth is that a "war" with old guys almost 60 years old "fighting" it is some kind of tragedy in and of itself. These men are probably the same guys who still believe Jane Fonda was a war criminal and Nixon and Kissinger and McNamara and company were just doing what they had to do to get ride of the commies.

Idiots then, idiots now.

[MindPilot]

11. and as chopper pilots

exactly how much contact do they have with the local populace? I'm sure they hop off the bird when they drop troops and run around the LZ interviewing average Iraqis. I'm gonna call Bullshit on this one if for no other reason than these guys are saying just the opposite of the facts. There was a clear overall mission in Vietnam to stop the Communist incursion to the South. It got a little murky after that, but in Iraq the "mission" has changed several times. WMDs? Regime change? Liberating the Iraqis? Protecting the US from an imminent threat? And on top of everything else, the mission--whatever it was--has been ACCOMPLISHED.

[saigon68]

75. THEY ARE IDIOTS

And NeoCon tools

Killing women and children for Cheney and his Halliburton company

[SCDem]

5. The similarity is the politics and deception not the location

[meganmonkey]

6. It sounds like they are comparing the beginning of theIraq war to the end

of Vietnam.

Wait for another 5 or 10 years of the Iraq War (please god don't let it last that long) and then tell me about public opinion and a clear objective.

[zipplewrath]

13. exactly

These guys were in at the end, not the start. Things looked better in the beginning at Vietnam too, just ask the french.

[saracat]

7. Did the WH pay for this puff piece?

Things must really be bad. What a transparent piece of propaganda! This sounds like it was written by Jeff Ganno.n Oops! Sorry. Plagiarized by Jeff Gannon!

[AlGore-08.com]

8. Totally different war. In 'Nam, they wore green camouflage.

In Iraq, they wear tan camouflage.

Totally different war.

[dArKeR]

14. You said something important! We'd have 50,000 dead, 100,000

amputees/blinded/crippled by today if Iraq had green trees. The rebels have little to no battle equipment and little no communications equipment. I know we're supposed to patriotic zombies and keep our mouths shut and not say the truth... but if the Iraqi rebels had some gear and/or green trees America would have nearly 200,000 dead/wounded and we'd be militarily defeated in Iraq.

[LiberallyInclined]

49. yup. just like we did with the british.

guerilla warfare was one of the best weapons we had in the revolutionary war.
americans- a long history of breaking the rules to suit our needs.

[lastliberalintexas]

47. Yeah, jungle vs. desert

Only those freak liberals with no knowledge of geography would claim Iraq is like Vietnam. :)

[Frederik]

10. Is this one of those Pentagon-produced news stories

Rumsfeld said they were going to make, when he set up the Office of Strategic Influence? All credible information that comes out of Iraq contradicts everything these pilots say.

[Maeve]

12. More support back home? Yeah, 39%

:eyes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1567072

[ElectroPrincess]

16. Reads "All-Inclusive"

Thanks whorish Corporate Mass Media. :P The headline should read "SOME Vietnam Vets in Iraq See ..." But No! KKKarl has ordered that the sheeple are supposed to believe that THESE FEW speak for *all* Vietnam Vets.

Propaganda :puke:

[jsamuel]

17. It's always a good idea to base a story off of 3 people and apply to ALL

Terrible...

[dArKeR]

19. Remember the soldier who was interviewed and aired on every Whore

network. "I love Iraq. It's a nice place. Everyone is so friendly."

[Gregorian]

18. That's it then- Everything's fine.

Starting a war with a nonthreatening country.
Violating Geneva Conventions in Guantanamo.
Grandfathers flying around killing innocent Iraqis.
Outing CIA agents.
Toturing civilians in Abu Ghraib, and rendering prisoners to other countries that don't have to abide by international laws.
Using Napalm and cluster bombs and depleted uranium.

These and many more, are all just fine, because some dope in Paradise, California says things are going well. Yeah, those stupid Iraqis just didn't know we were killing them for their own good.

You can fool most Americans, but you can't fool the Final Judge. Go to hell.

[Kagemusha]

21. We were just there to help them, huh?

Really. Is that so.

[Meeker Morgan]

22. No two wars are the same ...

... the key is the underlying politics, not how the war is fought.

[hippywife]

45. Nope, just different names and

different resources. Then was tin and rubber, now is oil. Underlying policy couldn't be more the same.

[still_one]

23. you were there to help them?

JERK!!!

you were being played a fool in Nam, and an even bigger fool in Iraq

You didn't understand the history of Viet Nam, and you sure as hell do NOT understand the history of the middle east

We are in the middle of a trible dispute, that we have contributed to.

We are building 14 permanent bases there, and what these assholes have done is probably create a religious war that will last a long long time

Hey, USA Today RAG, and Miles and Browning you are so hot about manifest destiny, along with the other viet nam war vets who have learned NOTHING, why don't you sign-up for Iraq you morans

we have already KILLED over 100000 civillians, contaminated their land with nuclear tipped bullets, starved them for 10 years, etc.

yeah, they love us alright...

And please don't tell me we can't pull out because it would be a bloodbath

The killing stopped in Viet Name the momement we left

[mahina]

24. "The killing stopped in Viet Name the momement we left"

Not so. Ask the Montagnards. Oh wait you can't, they were killed when we left.

[jokerman93]

26. when we left?

You mean when we were finished using them, then betrayed our promises to them and abandoned them to their fate at the hands of the Viet Cong and NVA.

[mahina]

46. I must agree with you on that point 100%.

Will never forget the day and my father's heartbreak after giving all he had there, both at our government's deception and indifference.

[Lowell]

25. Perhaps to a pilot it looks different

than Vietnam. But how about to a grunt? I served with the 5 Infantry Division in 1968 in RVN as an infantryman. I'm not about to volunteer to step into this new quagmire. These pilots probably never interacted with the Vietnamese and I doubt they have very much contact with the Iraqis today. They are obviously tools of the administration. I don't denigrate their service, I just question their motives and memories.

[Jacobin]

28. Thank you for your service

The fact that these guys are pilots does seem to make a difference. Their stories are quite different from the stories of on the ground guys I've talked to when they have returned to the states.

The guys I've talked to said most Iraqis hate us and want us gone.

[Lowell]

55. That is what I have been hearing also

I have met a number of young, returning vets and the stories I am hearing from the ground troops sounds oddly like what I heard and saw 35 years ago. They are going through the same adjustments I and many of my fellow vets went through when we came back from Nam. The nightmares, depression, anxiety, hostilities, suicides and illnesses all make their return to society difficult. They also have been experiencing many of the same horrors we experienced. The constant fear and hostile locals. None of the grunts I've talked to were anxious to return. I think this article was pure unadulterated bullshit. A feel good piece thrown out there by this maladministration in Washington.

[daleo]

27. This story seems like a retread

Or there was one just like it a year or so back. It is an entirely different war - Iraq has oil, so there is something extremely valuable to steal. I don't think that was the case in Viet Nam.

[AlCzervik]

29. Weatherhead, 57, of Elk Grove, Calif.-my hometown

i'm going to have to start checking the sacramento bee's ltte's section for his name.

[AX10]

30. These are PILOTS!

Pilots are not on the ground. In Iraq, there are very few pilots. Most missions are being performed on the ground, where it's very violent.

This is a misleading article.

[Dr Fate]

39. Sure its BS- but the GOP is demanding the media run more positive stories.

They are blaming the media for low recruitment- so this is the media response.

No positive stories? No problem- the Ministry of Truth is ON IT!!!

[Herkdrvr]

60. So? Army helicopter pilots deal with danger everyday.

I used to fly Army helicopters...I now fly C-130s for the Air Force. And it completely irritates me when someone makes such a blatantly ignorant statement like "oh, how do you know what Iraq is like when you're safe at 30,000 feet".

That's crap. C-130s get shot at all the time, not just by rifles, but by sophisticated Russian-made shoulder-launched missiles. The helicopter bubbas have it much worse...they get everything lobbed at them since they fly right at rooftop level.

Then, lets not forget that many aircrew operate out of Iraq...we don't spend all of our time sitting way above the action. The airfields we fly out of are frequent targets of suicide bombers, mortar attacks, rocket attacks, and small arms skirmishes. When we fly, we wear body armor as added protection.

No, we don't go house to house looking for the bad guys. But we stick out in the sky like a sore thumb and everyone with a gun, rocket, missile or grenade tries to take a shot at us. Luckily their aim hasn't been very good over the years. But there have been many, many close calls.

If you look at the names of the dead, you'll see a number of helicopter pilots among them. Proportionally, they suffered a higher loss rate than any other career field (including infantry) in Vietnam, and they only lag behind infantry in this war.

You do people a great disservice by being presumptuous enough to assume that anyone who isn't an infantryman must be out of danger and living the high life.

[saigon68]

77. Most REMFs love the Combat Pay

Drive a truck down the road and join the barbecue

[Massachusetts]

31. flew combat missions in Vietnam

THERE WAS A BIG DIFFERENCE MY FRIENDS!

[geniph]

32. Move along, nothing to see here,

all is well, remain calm, return to your homes. Iraq is just peachy-keen. Hey, officers flying planes 30,000 feet above the ground say everybody loves us, so we don't have any problems there.

The very fact that they're going to this kind of trouble to plant propaganda pieces telling us just how wonderful everything is tells me just how bad things really are over there.

A side note: when they start the draft, try to go into the Air Force. In the Air Force, it's the officers who fight and the enlisted men who get to stay on base.

[UpInArms]

33. wish the writer had talked to a few of the vet friends of mine

they might have a different point of view :eyes:

[Old Vet]

34. NONSENSE------

This vet finds it hard to belive this stuff, Smells like swift boat people.

[demo dutch]

35. My thoughts exactly!!! Propaganda

[Ernesto]

36. This ol' Marine agrees wid you!

Pilots? Are they even in "the military"?.... Not as I knew it.

[stanwyck]

40. Hey, ol' Marine

I have a new Marine on his second tour in Iraq. (my son). I read this article and thought it sounded like some bizarre puff piece promoting war as a rolicking good time. Maybe these pilots would like to try being a Marine for a few days. Or weeks. Or months. Last week was rough. I kept seeing the headlines about 4 Marines killed. 5 Marines killed. Then at 3am Sunday my son called. To wish his papa a Happy Father's Day.
We were so relieved.
Of course, there were families all over this country having a really dreadful Father's Day.

[UpInArms]

37. Welcome to DU Old Vet!

:toast:

[BamaLefty]

41. Welcome Old Vet!

It's always great to have Vets on DU! :)

Post away my friend, and thank you for your service. :)

[Barrett808]

42. Second that

Good to have you.

[Dr Fate]

38. A POSITIVE media item-I hope it helps recruitment.

It aint working on Dr Fate, but mabey after reading this that young Republican down the hall from me will put his X-Box controller & bong down and go sign up.

[bpilgrim]

43. we've gone rampaging into the ME and they are more optimistic for this LIE

:shrug:

"If there are parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, these graying soldiers and the other Vietnam veterans serving here offer a unique perspective. They say they are more optimistic this time: They see a clearer mission than in Vietnam, a more supportive public back home and an Iraqi population that seems to be growing friendlier toward Americans."

guess we know which channel this guy gets his opinions from... FAUX

peace

[hippywife]

44. Totally different war ~

US KIA 1961-1965: 1864
US KIA 2002-2005: 1725 (so far)

At the current casualty rate, we will lose more US lives in 2.5 years in Iraq than in the first 4 years of Vietnam.

US WIA 1961-1965: 7337
US WIA 2002-2005: 13-15,000

All of the advances in military technology in the past 40 years sure is paying off, ain't it.

82% of Iraqi's polled want the US occupation force to leave.

What about the millions and millions world-wide, many of those millions in this country who came out in opposition to the run up to the war? That sure didn't happen at the onset of Vietnam, not til much later. Yep, they sure got some support this time around.

Yep, totally different war. This time sand instead of jungle.

[NYC]

53. # killed lower; # wounded higher.

Part of the reason for that is medical advances. People who would have died of wounds in Viet Nam, are kept alive in Iraq. Better medical.

Viet Nam:
US KIA 1961-1965: 1,864
US WIA 1961-1965: 7,337

Iraq (so far):
US KIA 2002-2005: 1,725
US WIA 2002-2005: 13,000-15,000

Also note shorter period in Iraq than 1961-65 period quoted for Viet Nam.

[hippywife]

54. I think you are missing the point I am trying to make.

At the rate we are going, the KIA in Iraq in 2.5-3 years will surpass the 4 year KIA's in Vietnam. More losses in less time.

The WIA are already twice the amount in about half the time.

That was what was meant by my sarcastic remark regarding the advances in military technology and that they have much greater support at home and in Iraq for this war.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

65. Actually, we have almost reached the same amount of KIAs in a little....

...over two years as we reached in Vietnam in about eight years.

The first combat "advisors" were sent to Vietnam in 1954, and we suffered the first KIA in 1956. By 1963-1964, we had almost 2000 KIA in Vietnam.

[hippywife]

67. Agreed.

I was using the first four years that our involvement began to escalate and combat deaths really began to rise.

[Cha]

48. And what Exactly is this "war" for?..

Einstein?

To rout out communism like in the vietnam war?

WMD? Did ya find them yet?

Terrorists? There were none before brainless unleashed Holy War there by bombing the shite outta Iraq!!

So don't tell me this one is "winable"! Peddle that shit to someone who thinks bush isn't a God Damn Liar!

[TroubleMan]

50. Iraq is like Vietnam without the drugs and hookers

At least in Vietnam, they had some form of release. In Iraq, as far as I know, they have no place to really relax.

[Barrett808]

51. They have air conditioning and fast food

at the FOBs. Of course, out in al Qaim, life is rather more spartan.

[TroubleMan]

52. True, but in Vietnam you usually only had to go for a year

In Iraq they keep extending the tours.


But to be fair, the fatality rate was much, much higher in Vietnam.

.....

Also, I'd rather have drugs and hookers than fast food and a/c, but that's just me. :evilgrin:

[Barrett808]

72. Heh.

I suspect there are some hookers available in Iraq, even if they have to be flown in.

Stop-loss does suck, no doubt about it.

[Gyre]

56. I just love those "less than human interest" stories

where the "authorities" are dumbass okie transplants who barely graduated from high school (to wit: Swift Boat Veterans). They're just so cute and adorable opining on the outcome of a "war" they can't even comprehend.

Gyre

[saigon68]

81. Right On

dumbass okie transplants = rustics who like to kill the Brown, Black and "Rag-Head" man ---- for the Bush Criminals.

[DrZeeLit]

57. Yeah, but it's a dry heat.

And the fish of the day is Red Snapper.

Pass me the Evian. I feel like puking.

[radar]

58. One thing about the Vietnamese...

They had a few years "practice" learning the art of fighting against a better armed opponent. Japanese & French before the American military's turn.

United States in Vietnam 1945-1975
Comprehensive Timelines with Quotes and Analysis
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/

1941 Ho Chi Minh secretly returns to Vietnam after 30 years in exile and organizes a nationalist organization known as the Viet Minh...
...U.S. military intelligence agency Office of Strategic Services (OSS) allies with Ho Chi Minh and his Viet Minh guerrillas to harass Japanese troops in the jungles and to help rescue downed American pilots.

[number6]

59. I call Bull-looney

"They see a clearer mission than in Vietnam"

"a more supportive public back home and an Iraqi population that seems to be growing friendlier toward Americans"

"And the Vietcong and North Vietnamese were a tougher, more tenacious enemy"

""I knew we were going to lose Vietnam the day I walked off the plane"

a psychic huh ...:eyes:

[LoneDriver]

63. Viet Nam had sex, drugs and rock n'roll

and was much much prettier than Iraq.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

64. They'll be singing a different tune if the Iraqis ever get an....

...a steady supply of shoulder-launched surface-to-air missiles.

[Herkdrvr]

70. They already have that

Missile shots are a daily occurance.

[anarchy1999]

68. Yep, it is a coming! Watch out! Heads down. I've been seeing it all

on every channel there is. Our "guys" are proud to be there on behalf of "freedom" and "America", and "serving their country".

Whoo boy. Are we "libs" in for it, or what?!

[Herkdrvr]

73. Not to bust your bubble

But regardless of how we feel politically, most of us over there are proud to be there. You can either sit by the sidelines and watch someone else screw it up, or you can contribute and give it your best.

By not participating and letting someone else do it, you create the environment for things like Abu Graib. If the war is going to be fought, then it needs to be done the right way and most of us over there are trying to do that.

[saigon68]

74. You are being misled by a war criminal

amerika will lose ---- and the amerikan wounded and disabled will be denied benefits just like we were.

The vets of Iraq-Nam will have fun with their PTSD and live in cardboard boxes on the street while a draft dodger (the Bush Criminal) lives in the white house

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

69. These guys drank too much kool-aid, methinks

:shrug:

I served with nut cases that thought, even as we were leaving the Saigon embassy's roof-top, that we were just relocating to another city temporarily.

I swear to God this is true.

One CIA/diplodunk/contractor (I don't know of which stripe) even made a point of stopping to pick up his laundry, asking the guy in the store if his tux would be ready next week or not! And he was not kidding. And he was not in shock. He was sure he was going to attend some kind of shindig with the RVN top brass in May sometime, that this was just a "realignment."

You can't make shit like this up.

[peacebuzzard]

71. I thought I was in the wrong post, but then I saw the news source.

USA Today, nothing to see here.:donut:

Just coffee...no donut. (sigh....diets are hard)

[saigon68]

76. More Bush War Criminal Propaganda

[NuttyFluffers]

78. ooh ooh! i get to use the puffpiece smilie!

:puffpiece: :nuke: :popcorn:

ahh, nothing like :donut: :puffpiece: in the morning.

[Barrett808]

79. Oh, that's what that means...

...I've wondered for a long time.