Iraq: Italian TV alleges U.S. used chemical weapons in Fallujah

[Karmadillo]

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.php?cat=Terrorism&loid=8.0.226404219&par=

Rome, 7 Nov. (AKI) - A documentary to be aired on Tuesday by Italian state satellite TV channel RAI News 24 alleges that US troops used chemical weapons during their assault on the insurgent stronghold of Fallujah in November last year. The documentary - 'Fallujah - the hidden massacre' - uses witness accounts from former US soldiers, Fallujah residents, video footage and photographs, to support its claim that contrary to US State Department denials, white phosphorous was used indiscriminately on the city, causing terrible injuries to civilians, including women and children.

"I heard the order being issued to be careful because white phosphorous was being used on Fallujah. In military slang this is known as Willy Pete. Phosphorous burns bodies, melting the flesh right down to the bone," says one former US solider, interviewed by the documentary's director, Sigfrido Ranucci.

"I saw the burned bodies of women and children. The phosophorous explodes and forms a plume. Who ever is within a 150 metre radius has no hope," the former soldier adds.

"A rain of fire came down on the city, and people targeted by the different coloured substances began to burn. We found people dead, with strange injuries, with their clothes intact," a biologist from Fallujah, Mohamad Tareq al-Deraji tells Ranucci.

The evidence in 'Fallujah - the hidden massacre' claims to show the US forces did not use phosphorous in the legitimate way - to highlight enemy positions - but dropped the substance indiscriminately on the city, and on a massive scale. The documentary also shows the terrible damage wrought by the US bombardment of Fallujah, and the carnage to civilians, some of whom lay sleeping.

more...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. If this is true

can't someone in the US military be tried for crimes against humanity?

It would seem like a charge this serious needs to be investigated. But if Bush did the investigation, he'd eitehr find nothing or give the people who did it a medal.

[TomInTib]

14. We used WP grenades in VietNam

Tossed 'em right into hooches.
The carnage is beyond description. Jump in the water and it keeps on burning.

[Tempest]

43. Vietnam was the reason behind the ban

America's use of WP and napalm in Vietnam brought about the international ban.

[cantstandbush]

36. What are the chances of our own MSM investigating these allegations?

I bet nil. But it would be a natural thing to want to investigate especially in view of all the rest of the shit alleged about this administration and the entry into and conduct of this war. There should be little or no intimidation that matters from the administration since they are now fighting for their political lives. i say kick them while they are down.

[anotherdrew]

64. using such weapons is way dis-proportional force

I think perhaps the commander-in-chief could be held to account via the uniform-code-of military justice. Authorizing such weapons was surely an illegal order, bush should have been arrested.

watching the doc soon...

[newscott]

2. Does Berlusconi own RAI?

I don't see how this could help him.

[FightingIrish]

19. RAI is the state-owned network

[MADem]

23. He is KING OF ALL MEDIA over there, RAI excepted

http://www.ketupa.net/berlusconi.htm

His holdings are on page 2 of the above document. Canale 5 is quite popular, at least it was when I was over that way.

[Bob3]

3. Well let's just see how the apologists spin this one

"It was Saddam - he was gassing his own people again" or more likely
"they were terrorists - they deserved it."

[katty]

45. Read about this quite awhile ago-it appears to be open season

on bush.

[Barrett808]

4. Not the first time we've heard this

Dahr Jamail has covered this angle pretty extensively.

[JohnyCanuck]

11. But probably the first time a large number of the non-internet

connected public will be exposed to this information about the US military's war crimes. Here's hoping anyway.

[rodeodance]

75. but it keeps getting hushed up-over and over.

[DoYouEverWonder]

76. So was Giuliana Sgrena

no wonder the US wanted to make sure she would never go back to Iraq.

Napalm Raid on Falluja?
73 charred bodies -- women and children -- were found

We buried them, but we could not identify them because they were charred from the napalm bombs used by the Americans». People from Saqlawiya village, near Falluja, told al Jazeera television, based in Qatar, that they helped bury 73 bodies of women and children completely charred, all in the same grave. The sad story of common graves, which started at Saddam’s times, is not yet finished. Nobody could confirm if napalm bombs have been used in Falluja, but other bodies found last year after the fierce battle at Baghdad airport were also completely charred and some thought of nuclear bombs. No independent source could verify the facts, since all the news arrived until now are those spread by journalists embedded with the American troops, who would only allow British and American media to enrol with them. But the villagers who fled in the last few days spoke of many bodies which had not been buried: it was too dangerous to collect the corpses during the battle.

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dd721e0ff0.html

[NanceGreggs]

5. Truly Appalling!

And what will be the Admin's response to this? Watch for 'spaghetti' to be renamed 'Freedom Noodles' in the WH cafeteria.

[malaise]

80. They will bomb Syria

that's their response and in three years the Dems will say something.

[mark11727]

6. I guess we finally found the WMDs --- and they're OURS.

[bigluckyfeet]

31. We are no longer America the Beautiful

May God forgive us!

[Christa]

7. Bastards. nt.

[cal04]

8. It's about time that someone shows what's really

happening there. I've read about this so many times and yet it has never been discussed to my knowledge.
How sad for all sides in this disaster they created.
:cry:

[Barrett808]

9. Is there any way we can get a copy/link of this documentary?

Does RAI post broadcasts on their site?

[IChing]

15. video link here from a new italian member

file:///private/var/tmp/folders.501/TemporaryItems/AOLTemp.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5288550&mesg_id=5288651

[Barrett808]

18. Excellent, thanks. n/t

[IChing]

24. thank the new member Ciao

[Barrett808]

25. Footage of white phosphorus at 18:10 -- must watch!

If this is what it appears to be, we have some serious evidence for war crimes prosecutions.

[Barrett808]

26. Fallujah assault delayed until after election: "We were told to wait"

Apparently it was common knowledge in the ranks.

[IChing]

33. I think this video is frightening and sobering.

I agree.... a must see.

[Judi Lynn]

70. Thanks for the link to new DU'er Cornelia's video. n/t

[truth2power]

91. I downloaded that last night...

took 3 hrs. (dial-up).

Anybody know how I burn it to a disk? It's a .wmv file. DVD or CD?

[psychopomp]

68. Link

WARNING: The footage includes many close-ups of the dead; this is neccessary because the corpses offer proof of non-conventional weapons use and, in one important case, of torture.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/11/07.html#a5753

C&L has a torrent d/l, too!

[daleo]

10. Bush will have to shoot a few more Italian journalists, I guess.

These Italians are certainly becoming troublesome for the neo-cons.

[PDJane]

13. The dreaded napalm .......

was used there, too, but it's a new, improved version called Mark7. I obviously don't necessarily get my news in the same places, but it has been covered quite extensively here and there. The Brits were quite peeved about that too, because they were signatories to the treaty banning the stuff, and the US used the weapons without consulting or informing them, making them complicit in war crimes.

(I thought the original stuff was devastating enough, I can't see why new and improved is necessary or desirable).

[daleo]

56. Yes, I recall reading about that

It may be that the new stuff was just a dodge to get around the political implications of the name "napalm". Or, maybe some favored contractor produces Mark7, while the producers of napalm are on the outs?

Any way you look at it, these are dreadful things.

[leftchick]

90. It is MK-77 aka: Mark77

The US is the only force in Iraq using such munitions...

Naplam by another Name....

<snip>

A fire bomb is a thin skinned container of fuel gel designed for use against dug-in troops, supply installations, wooden structures, and land convoys. The MK 77 500-pound fire bomb is the only fire bomb now in service. Fire bombs rupture on impact and spread burning fuel gel on surrounding objects. MK 13 Mod 0 igniters are used to ignite the fuel gel mixture upon impact.

The MK-77 is a napalm canister munition. The MK77 familiy is an evolution of the incendiary bombs M-47 and M-74, used during the conflict in Korea and the war in Vietnam. Napalm is an incendiary mixture of benzene, gasoline and polystyrene. The Marine Corps dropped all of the approximately 500 MK-77s used in the Gulf War. They were delivered primarily by the AV-8 Harriers from relatively low altitudes. MK-77s were used to ignite the Iraqis oil-filled fire trenches, which were part of barriers constructed in southern Kuwait.
The containers of napalm bomber are very light and fabricated of aluminum, with a capacity for about 75 gallons of combustible gel. They lack stabilizing fins, and consequently acquire a tumbling motion on being dropped that contributes to the scattering of the combustible gel over a wide area.

While the MK-77 is the only incendiary munition currently in active inventory, a variety of other incendiary devices were produced, including the M-47 Napalm bomb, the M-74 incendiary bomb, and white phosphorous and munitions manufacturing. Production of these devices continued during the Korean conflict, though various demilitarization and decontamination programs were initiated in the late 1950s. Munitions destroyed included M-47 Napalm-filled bombs and incendiary cluster bombs.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/mk77.htm

<snip>

April Tuesday 19th 2005 (05h27) :
Fire Bombs in Iraq: Napalm By Any Other Name
11 comment(s).

Summary
This briefing examines the continuing use of incendiary weapons by the US military in Iraq. US officials have been forced to admit using the MK-77 incendiary, a modern form of napalm, at least during the initial fighting stage of the war. In direct contradiction, the UK government continues to deny that such weapons have been used in Iraq at any time. The UK is party to an international convention banning incendiaries where they may cause harm to civilians.

1. Napalm past

A fire bomb is a thin-skinned container of fuel gel. It ignites on impact, spreading the burning gel over a wide area. The composition of the fuel gel has evolved over the years:

World War II: gasoline plus naphthenic and palmitic acids
Vietnam & Korea: gasoline, benzene and polystyrene
Iraq (MK-77 Mod 5): kerosene-based jet fuel and polystyrene

In the past, incendiaries were most notoriously used in the 1945 fire-bombing of Dresden, and by the US in Vietnam. The 1972 photograph of the child Kim Phuc running from her napalmed village with her naked body burning was a defining moment in worldwide opposition to the Vietnam War.

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5825

<snip>

b]The Pentagon said it had not tried to deceive. It drew a distinction between traditional napalm, first invented in 1942, and the weapons dropped in Iraq, which it calls Mark 77 firebombs. They weigh 510lbs, and consist of 44lbs of polystyrene-like gel and 63 gallons of jet fuel.
Officials said that if journalists had asked about the firebombs their use would have been confirmed. A spokesman admitted they were "remarkably similar" to napalm but said they caused less environmental damage.

But John Pike, director of the military studies group GlobalSecurity.Org, said: *"You can call it something other than napalm but it is still napalm. It has been reformulated in the sense that they now use a different petroleum distillate, but that is it. The US is the only country that has used napalm for a long time. I am not aware of any other country that uses it." Marines returning from Iraq chose to call the firebombs "napalm".

Mr Musil said the Pentagon's effort to draw a distinction between the weapons was outrageous. He said: "It's Orwellian. They do not want the public to know. It's a lie."

In an interview with the San Diego Union-Tribune, Marine Corps Maj-Gen Jim Amos confirmed that napalm was used on several occasions in the war.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/21/32937/834

<snip>

When is napalm not napalm? When you switch gasoline for for jet fuel apparently. The new not-napalm has the happy name of "Mark 77," which sounds more like the latest boy band than the latest firebombing agent. Marine spokesperson Col. Michael Daily explained the difference between the gasoline of napalm and jet fuel of Mark 77 in a recent email:

This additive has significantly less of an impact on the environment.

Nice to know the Pentagon is environmentally-senstive when it's roasting people alive.

[jsamuel]

12. Who's using the WMD on who?

Is it genocide yet?

[KansDem]

16. "Now we're all sons of bitches."

At 5:29:45 (Mountain War Time) on July 16, 1945, in a white blaze that stretched from the basin of the Jemez Mountains in northern New Mexico to the still-dark skies, "The Gadget" ushered in the Atomic Age. The light of the explosion then turned orange as the atomic fireball began shooting upwards at 360 feet per second, reddening and pulsing as it cooled. The characteristic mushroom cloud of radioactive vapor materialized at 30,000 feet. Beneath the cloud, all that remained of the soil at the blast site were fragments of jade green radioactive glass created by the heat of the reaction.

The brilliant light from the detonation pierced the early morning skies with such intensity that residents from a faraway neighboring community would swear that the sun came up twice that day. Even more astonishing is that a blind girl saw the flash 120 miles away.

Upon witnessing the explosion, its creators had mixed reactions. Isidor Rabi felt that the equilibrium in nature had been upset -- as if humankind had become a threat to the world it inhabited. J. Robert Oppenheimer, though ecstatic about the success of the project, quoted a remembered fragment from the Bhagavad Gita. "I am become Death," he said, "the destroyer of worlds." Ken Bainbridge, the test director, told Oppenheimer, "Now we're all sons of bitches."
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa050300a.htm

How true...how utterly true...

[leftofcool]

17. Reason #1,0054

that everyone hates us.

Left of Cool

[cassiepriam]

20. How is Bush any different than Saddam?

Is there any evidence to support that Bush has played by the rules during this war?

[3waygeek]

57. Saddam's the one with a moustache n/t

[sabra]

21. kick for the truth!

[indepat]

22. The neocons would not allow such for such would be war crimes

and we don't do war crimes or torture.

[Pachamama]

27. Torture, Depleted Uranium tipped artillery, Napalm & Chem Weapons...

....So, how again are we making Iraq a better place? :eyes: How are we different or better than Saddam Hussein? Answer: Now we are supplying ourselves, keeping the profits ourselves and doing the dirty work ourselves....


This is just so disgusting.... :puke:

[leftchick]

28. I was berated time and again last year for saying the US did this

This is one amazing and extremely disturbing video and I hope it is seen around the world and especially here in the states. The US has committed so many war crimes and needs to be held accountable. Perhaps Frontline could air it.

[anotherdrew]

65. not by me... there was enough evidence then to seriously consider this

people don't realize how little information comes out of Iraq and the extent to which it is controlled. And then there are those intentionally seeding BS, but so far that's been a tiny few.

[Nothing Without Hope]

29. This is not the first word of this. June DU thread on chemicals & napalm:

in Fallujah.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x135363
thread title (6/27/05): Incinerating Iraqis: The napalm cover up

Chemicals were also cited.

[ninkasi]

38. Thanks for posting...

I remembered that there had been discussions earlier on about the U.S. using napalm, but couldn't remember how long ago it was. This is absolutely inexcusable and a war crime. Bush and the whole corrupt administration need to be charged with crimes against humanity, and stand trial at the Hague.

For our country, the country which holds itself up as a beacon of freedom and democracy to resort to torture, war crimes, and the kind of wholesale slaughter engaged in by the Bush administration is offensive to everything I believe in.

I hope the Christian right takes a long, hard look at the Republican party, and the president they so proudly claim they were responsible for putting in office. How about it, Robertson, Falwell, Reed...are these the actions of a man who follows the teachings of Christ? If this is so, then you all serve a different god than I was taught to believe in.

[TexasLawyer]

30. Melted Corpses

Dear Lord, what are we doing?


Smoke rises from the Fallujah railroad station as U.S. Army and Marine units pound the city with air strikes and artillery. Associated Press photo by Anja Niedringhaus



U.S. drives into heart of Fallujah
Army, Marines face rockets and bombs in battle to take insurgents' stronghold
ADVANCING: 70% of city reported under American control
Chronicle news services

Wednesday, November 10, 2004

Fallujah, Iraq --

<snip>
Metz said that because U.S. forces formed a "very tight" cordon around the city Sunday night, the enemy "doesn't have an escape route" and eventually would be cornered. But Sheikh Abdul-Sattar Edatha, the spokesman for the shura council, said most foreign fighters had already left the city. The U.S. military had estimated that there were 2,000 to 3,000 foreign fighters in the city, many of them part of a network linked to Jordanian-born guerrilla leader Abu Musab al- Zarqawi.

"Militarily speaking, the city falls under the U.S. forces' control," Edatha said. "The foreign fighters won't stay here and die. They lost the battle. They spread in other places." On Tuesday night, Fallujah's eerily empty streets were littered with shattered concrete and dead bodies, said a resident shaken by a missile strike on the second story of his family home. Insurgents cloaked in checkered head scarves carried wounded fellow fighters to mosques.

Civilians caught in the cross fire were gathered in a hospital donated by the United Arab Emirates and flying a blue and white UNICEF banner. There, medical workers low on bandages and antiseptic bound wounds in ripped sheets and cleaned torn skin with hot water. The Jolan and Askali neighborhoods seemed particularly hard hit, with more than half of the houses destroyed. Dead bodies were scattered on the streets and narrow alleys of Jolan, one of Fallujah's oldest neighborhoods. Blood and flesh were splattered on the walls of some of the houses, witnesses said, and the streets were full of holes. Some of the heaviest damage apparently was incurred Monday night by air and artillery attacks that coincided with the entry of ground troops into the city. U.S. warplanes dropped eight 2,000-pound bombs on the city overnight, and artillery boomed throughout the night and into the morning.

"Usually we keep the gloves on," said Army Capt. Erik Krivda, of Gaithersburg, Md., the senior officer in charge of the 1st Infantry Division's Task Force 2-2 tactical operations command center. "For this operation, we took the gloves off." Some artillery guns fired white phosphorous rounds that create a screen of fire that cannot be extinguished with water. Insurgents reported being attacked with a substance that melted their skin, a reaction consistent with white phosphorous burns. Kamal Hadeethi, a physician at a regional hospital, said, "The corpses of the mujahedeen which we received were burned, and some corpses were melted."

<snip>

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/11/10/MNG6P9P3ER1.DTL

[TX-RAT]

89. Those are M77 cluster bombs in the background, not WP

They explode above ground raining down sub-munitions.

[Danieljay]

32. horrifying....

This is a must see.

[katinmn]

34. If Congress wants to come out of its shell, this would be a good time

I don't want to believe a majority of our elected officials actually condone this.

Enough is enough.:cry:

[tuvor]

35. "FALLUJAH NAPALMED" from Sunday Mirror, November 28 2004

FALLUJAH NAPALMED

www.sundaymirror.co.uk

Nov 28 2004

US uses banned weapon ..but was Tony Blair told?

By Paul Gilfeather Political Editor

US troops are secretly using outlawed napalm gas to wipe out remaining insurgents in and around Fallujah.

News that President George W. Bush has sanctioned the use of napalm, a deadly cocktail of polystyrene and jet fuel banned by the United Nations in 1980, will stun governments around the world.

And last night Tony Blair was dragged into the row as furious Labour MPs demanded he face the Commons over it. Reports claim that innocent civilians have died in napalm attacks, which turn victims into human fireballs as the gel bonds flames to flesh.

Outraged critics have also demanded that Mr Blair threatens to withdraw British troops from Iraq unless the US abandons one of the world's most reviled weapons. Halifax Labour MP Alice Mahon said: "I am calling on Mr Blair to make an emergency statement to the Commons to explain why this is happening. It begs the question: 'Did we know about this hideous weapon's use in Iraq?'"

Since the American assault on Fallujah there have been reports of "melted" corpses, which appeared to have napalm injuries.

Last August the US was forced to admit using the gas in Iraq.

A 1980 UN convention banned the use of napalm against civilians - after pictures of a naked girl victim fleeing in Vietnam shocked the world.

America, which didn't ratify the treaty, is the only country in the world still using the weapon.

Originally posted at:
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/news/tm_objectid=14920109%26method=full%26siteid=106694-name_page.html

[frankly_fedup2]

37. I remember seeing pictures of the little kids and babies with the

tar still stuck to their bodies. Napalm. We agreed over 40 years ago not to use this evil type of weaponry.

We have learned there are no rules as far as Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield.

[allemand]

39. These pictures are also on the website where you can watch the documentary

http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/default_02112005.asp

It's the second link under "GALLERIE FOTOGRAFICHE" which reads "Repertorio fornito dall'Osservatorio Iraq-Un ponte per…":
http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/slideshow.asp?gallery=2

The other gallieries are horrifying too, particularly the first, "Repertorio fornito dal Centro Studi diritti Umani di Fallujah".

[dutchdemocrat]

40. US Lied to Britain Over Use of Napalm in Iraq War

US Lied to Britain Over Use of Napalm in Iraq War
by Colin Brown

American officials lied to British ministers over the use of "internationally reviled" napalm-type firebombs in Iraq.

The US has used internationally reviled weapons that the UK refuses to use, and has then apparently lied to UK officials, showing how little weight the UK carries in influencing American policy.

Despite persistent rumors of injuries among Iraqis consistent with the use of incendiary weapons such as napalm, Adam Ingram, the Defense minister, assured Labour MPs in January that US forces had not used a new generation of incendiary weapons, codenamed MK77, in Iraq.

But Mr Ingram admitted to the Labour MP Harry Cohen in a private letter obtained by The Independent that he had inadvertently misled Parliament because he had been misinformed by the US. "The US confirmed to my officials that they had not used MK77s in Iraq at any time and this was the basis of my response to you," he told Mr Cohen. "I regret to say that I have since discovered that this is not the case and must now correct the position."

Mr Ingram said 30 MK77 firebombs were used by the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in the invasion of Iraq between 31 March and 2 April 2003. They were used against military targets "away from civilian targets", he said. This avoids breaching the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW), which permits their use only against military targets.

SNIP

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0617-01.htm

[electropop]

41. When a country uses WMDs, that's grounds to invade, right?

:scared:

At least that's what the neoconvicts say.

[Stella_Artois]

42. WP is a chemical weapon ?

When did that happen ?

Hey, this is a dissenting opinion, so i'm going to get flamed up and down but WP isn't a chemical weapon.

Its a chemical substance, but so are explosives. Its used for its incendiary effect, not its effect as a poison or other agent.

No, i'm not a freeper or a right winger. I'm also not a warmonger or war crime enabler, chickenhawk or Bush apologist, so lets keep the ensuing insults a bit more inventive.

So, i'm saying WP isn't a chemical weapon recognised as such by any world body that i know of, i would be perfectly happy to be put right on that if i'm wrong.

[IChing]

44. An inciderary chemical weapon

if you had watched the film to the end you would have seen that the UK ministry of defence finally admitted to an ex-MP in a letter that the US had used mk77 in falujah.
MK-77 is a napalm canister munition. The MK77 familiy is an evolution of the incendiary bombs M-47 and M-74, used during the conflict in Korea and the war in Vietnam,

International law does not prohibit the use of napalm or other incendiaries against military targets, but use against civilian populations was banned by a United Nations convention in 1980. The United States did not sign the agreement, but claimed to have destroyed its napalm arsenal by 2001.

The United States had reportedly been using incendiaries in the 2003 invasion of Iraq <4>. In August 2003, the Pentagon confirmed the use of Mark 77 firebombs.

[Stella_Artois]

48. Its not a chemical weapon

No world body recognises it as a chemical weapon, that i am aware of.

[occuserpens]

63. right

[Stella_Artois]

50. Good call

"Protocol III on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons prohibits, in all circumstances, making the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects, the object of attack by any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat or a combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target "

http://www.un.org/millennium/law/xxvi-18-19.htm

This is interesting though

"Protocol III regulates the use of weapons designed to set fire to or burn their target. The protocol proscribes targeting civilians with incendiary weapons and restricts the use of air-delivered incendiary weapons against military targets in close proximity to concentrations of noncombatants. It also prohibits parties from targeting forests or other plant cover unless the vegetation is being used to conceal military forces. The protocol only covers weapons created intentionally to set fire or burn, such as flamethrowers. Weapons that ignite fires or burn as a side effect are not subject to the protocol.

http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/CCW.asp

WP can be used to create smoke, smoke markers use WP. It could be argued that this is the primary effect, and the heat is a secondary effect.

[Wizard777]

60. The original Napalm & Agent Orange arguements.

They are not weapons they are exfolients. Oooookay. You go tell that to the civilians in the village under the Canopy while the area is being exfoliated. Uh Huh.

[Codeine]

46. You're correct, of course.

Willy Pete and napalm are not chemical weapons, they are flame weaons and fall under a different classification. If napalm is a chemical weapon then bullets are a chemical weapon, as both rely on the release of energy through combution to operate.

That being said, dropping the shit on a civilian population sucks mightily.

[Stella_Artois]

47. Totally agree

If there isn't a law against using it against population centers, there should be.

Problem is, there isn't. As far as i am aware.

[IChing]

49. UN law state that it was against the "law", we are the only ones that

didn't sign it.
It was a civilian center (city) that it was used against.

http://fletcher.tufts.edu/multi/texts/BH790.txt

[Stella_Artois]

51. Thanks, i was looking for that

"Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such
as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems;"

WP seems to coveniently fall into a loophole.

[peacebird]

55. did you go to look at the pictures? one shows a boy with blood pouring out

of his eyes, nose, mouth, ears - but no other marks on his body. Not death by WP that, I fear, but something far nastier.

Perhaps our military KNEW that the massacre at Fallujah was a pretty clear war crime. That is why they kept everyone OUT of Fallujah for a month....

[Nihil]

81. Oh, that's OK then ... carry on!

> "Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such
> as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems;"
>
> WP seems to coveniently fall into a loophole.

My, how convenient.

Burning civilians (men, women & children) is OK then as long as there's
a loophole to allow you to "support the troops": it produces smoke.

You can napalm all the kids you want as they've changed to a new brand
now that isn't called "napalm" (but does the same job) so it's OK.

Fucking bunch of murdering war criminals.

[AngryAmish]

53. Could violate the Hague Conventions

this is not my field and I hope someone corrects me if I am wrong but

Hague Convention says one must use a weapon that is proportionate to threat, so area effect weapons in civilian areas could be a war crime.

I think.

[allemand]

52. Yes, according to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons

OPCW spokesman Peter Kaiser explains:

"It's not forbidden by the chemical weapons convention if it's used within the context of a military application which does not require or does not intend to use the toxic properties of white phosphorus.
White phosphorus is normally used to produce smoke to camouflage movement, and if that is the purpose for which the white phosphorus is used, in other words just to camouflage movement, that is considered under the convention legitimate use.
If on the other hand the toxic properties of white phosphorus, in other words, the caustic properties of white phosphorus are specifically intended to be used as a weapon, that of course is prohibited because the way the convention is structured or the way it is, in fact, applied, any chemical that is used against humans or against animals that causes harm or death through the toxic properties of the chemical are (sic) considered chemical weapons. So it doesn't matter what substance we are talking about, as long as the purpose is to cause harm through toxic properties that is prohibited behavior."

http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/clips/Video/audio_fosforo.asx

(in Italian: )
http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/fosforo.asp

[Wizard777]

61. The Hammer: Tool or Weapon?

If you use it to drive a nail into a board. It's a tool.
If you use it to bash someones skull in. It's a weapon.
So of course the correct answer is the unpresented third option. It's both. So use your hammers wisely and with compassion. It's really that simple.

[Twist_U_Up]

54. are you pissed off yet ?

we need to flip this nasty ass administration on its fucking head.

FUCK

[JoFerret]

58. When will some journo

ask McClellan to confirm or deny? And does * have a view?

[callady]

59. this has been known (and denied) for quite a while

US forces 'used chemical weapons' during assault on city of Fallujah

By Peter Popham

Published: 08 November 2005


Powerful new evidence emerged yesterday that the United States dropped massive quantities of white phosphorus on the Iraqi city of Fallujah during the attack on the city in November 2004, killing insurgents and civilians with the appalling burns that are the signature of this weapon.

Ever since the assault, which went unreported by any Western journalists, rumours have swirled that the Americans used chemical weapons on the city.

On 10 November last year, the Islam Online website wrote: "US troops are reportedly using chemical weapons and poisonous gas in its large-scale offensive on the Iraqi resistance bastion of Fallujah, a grim reminder of Saddam Hussein's alleged gassing of the Kurds in 1988."

The website quoted insurgent sources as saying: "The US occupation troops are gassing resistance fighters and confronting them with internationally banned chemical weapons."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article325560.ece

[occuserpens]

62. Strictly speaking, napalm is not CW

Nevertheless, it is a pretty barbaric weapon. Its usage only escalates the guerilla war.

Peter Popham. US forces 'used chemical weapons' during assault on city of Fallujah: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article325560.ece

[Gregorian]

66. See discussion on this at Dailykos. Not chemical weapon.

Well, I can't find it. But it was over there. And a long discussion went back and forth over the legality of it's use. Needless to say, we have abused every rule in the book. But strictly speaking, by definition, white phosporus is not a chemical weapon.

[psychopomp]

67. LINK TO VIDEO

WARNING: The footage includes many close-ups of the dead; this is neccessary because the corpses offer proof of non-conventional weapons use and, in one important case, of torture.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/11/07.html#a5753

Thanks C&L!

[shanti]

69. i don't know how much more of this i can take

the shit is raining down most heavily now:( the dam has broken.

[rodeodance]

71. US forces 'used chemical weapons' during assault on city of Fallujah

ttp://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article325560.ece

US forces 'used chemical weapons' during assault on city of Fallujah
By Peter Popham
Published: 08 November 2005

Powerful new evidence emerged yesterday that the United States dropped massive quantities of white phosphorus on the Iraqi city of Fallujah during the attack on the city in November 2004, killing insurgents and civilians with the appalling burns that are the signature of this weapon.

Ever since the assault, which went unreported by any Western journalists, rumours have swirled that the Americans used chemical weapons on the city.

On 10 November last year, the Islam Online website wrote: "US troops are reportedly using chemical weapons and poisonous gas in its large-scale offensive on the Iraqi resistance bastion of Fallujah, a grim reminder of Saddam Hussein's alleged gassing of the Kurds in 1988."

The website quoted insurgent sources as saying: "The US occupation troops are gassing resistance fighters and confronting them with internationally banned chemical weapons.".....

[texpatriot2004]

72. Whatever happened to "do unto others as you would have them

do unto you"?

[rodeodance]

73. US soldier said "going to use white phosphorus on Fallujah"

....But now new information has surfaced, including hideous photographs and videos and interviews with American soldiers who took part in the Fallujah attack, which provides graphic proof that phosphorus shells were widely deployed in the city as a weapon.

In a documentary to be broadcast by RAI, the Italian state broadcaster, this morning, a former American soldier who fought at Fallujah says: "I heard the order to pay attention because they were going to use white phosphorus on Fallujah. In military jargon it's known as Willy Pete.

"Phosphorus burns bodies, in fact it melts the flesh all the way down to the bone ... I saw the burned bodies of women and children. Phosphorus explodes and forms a cloud. Anyone within a radius of 150 metres is done for."

Photographs on the website of RaiTG24, the broadcaster's 24-hours news channel, www.rainews24.it, show exactly what the former soldier means. Provided by the Studies Centre of Human Rights in Fallujah, dozens of high-quality, colour close-ups show bodies of Fallujah residents, some still in their beds, whose clothes remain largely intact but whose skin has been dissolved or caramelised or turned the consistency of leather by the shells......

[rodeodance]

74. "In military jargon it's known as Willy Pete."

[DoYouEverWonder]

77. BBC just posted this story has Breaking News

Just a day late and a dollar short, hey BBC?


US 'used chemical arms' in Iraq

8 November 2005

Italian state TV has broadcast a documentary accusing the US military of indiscriminate use of chemical weapons in the Iraqi city of Falluja last year.

In the film, eyewitnesses and ex-US soldiers who served in Iraq said white phosphorus bombs had been used against civilians in the insurgent-held city.

The US military has denied the allegations as "disinformation".

The transmission comes a day after the arrival of Iraq's president on a five-day official visit to Italy.

BBC Rome correspondent David Willey says the timing of the documentary is not a co-incidence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4417024.stm

[Junkdrawer]

103. "US military has denied the allegations as 'disinformation'..."

Oh, the irony...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

78. Not sure this is exactly correct.

From the article:

<i>
The use of white phosophorous and Napalm is prohibited by UN conventions. Moroever, the United States signed up to the Chemical Weapons Convention in 1997.</i>

Its use on *civilians* is prohibited, and the US is not a party to that agreement, IIRC. Secondly, I don't see anything about chemical weapons - only incendiaries.

[allemand]

79. If it is only incendiary how do you explain that their clothes are intact?

http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/slideshow.asp?gallery=1
(Warning: graphic images)

WP can be used as a chemical weapon and it was used as such in Falluja.

"If on the other hand the toxic properties of white phosphorus, in other words, the caustic properties of white phosphorus are specifically intended to be used as a weapon, that of course is prohibited because the way the convention is structured or the way it is, in fact, applied, any chemical that is used against humans or against animals that causes harm or death through the toxic properties of the chemical are (sic) considered chemical weapons. So it doesn't matter what substance we are talking about, as long as the purpose is to cause harm through toxic properties that is prohibited behavior."

Peter Kaiser, spokesman for the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons
http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/clips/Video/audio_fosforo.asx

http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/fosforo.asp

[Nihil]

82. Shhh! Don't get logical or factual on them!

Remember, the previous poster said:
> ... the US is not a party to that agreement

This means that it simply isn't a problem over the water in la-la land.

The only burned bodies that *some* people care about are the sizzling
crispy BBQ mercenaries ... mere civilians don't count as the US didn't
bother to sign that document either.

[dutchdemocrat]

83. I have the Italian documentary online now

For download and viewing at

http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/

[skooooo]

84. US 'uses incendiary arms' in Iraq

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4417024.stm

Italian state TV, Rai, has broadcast a documentary accusing the US military of using of phosphorus bombs against civilians in the Iraqi city of Falluja.
In the film, eyewitnesses and ex-US soldiers who served in Iraq said white phosphorus bombs were used in built-up areas in the insurgent-held city.

Rai says this amounts to the illegal use of chemical arms, though such bombs are considered incendiary devices.

The US military admits using the weapon in Iraq to illuminate battlefields.

[leftchick]

85. yes, the US is trying to hide their war crimes...

The US has confiscated a lot of material from reporters who were there...

<snip>

The film also says Washington has systematically attempted to destroy filmed evidence of the alleged use of white phosphorus on civilians in Falluja.

Italian public opinion has been consistently against the war and the Rai documentary can only reinforce calls here for a pullout of Italian soldiers as soon as possible, our correspondent says.

Both the Italian government and opposition leaders are talking about a phased withdrawal in 2006.

President Talabani and the US say the continued presence of multi-national forces in Iraq is essential.

[Horse with no Name]

86. My brother was in Fallujah

He said it was like a perpetual firework show.:(

[niallmac]

87. I would like some journalist to explain the reporting situation

over there. Did we not have journalists with the troops during the Fallujah onslaught?
Is it that hard to see if phosphorous is being used at ground level?
My sense is that either this phosphorous outrage did not happen and the Italian press
is wrong since they are not enamoured with this war any more than I am or, our press
is so gung ho especially at the beginning of battle that tthey could not report a war crime
if their lives depended on it.

[leesa]

88. I had an argument with a soldier a while back about Bush. I told him Bush

was turning him and his fellow soldiers into war criminals. He was at Fallujah.
Poor guy. He was so deluded. Kept insisting he had seen WMD disguised as an ice cream truck when I told him US gov reports said no WMDs had been found. I told him he MUST report his ice cream truck then, because obviously the weapons inspectors scouring the country had missed it. They want to believe so badly.

[Judi Lynn]

92. US forces 'used chemical weapons' during assault on city of Fallujah

US forces 'used chemical weapons' during assault on city of Fallujah
By Peter Popham
Published: 08 November 2005
Powerful new evidence emerged yesterday that the United States dropped massive quantities of white phosphorus on the Iraqi city of Fallujah during the attack on the city in November 2004, killing insurgents and civilians with the appalling burns that are the signature of this weapon.

Ever since the assault, which went unreported by any Western journalists, rumours have swirled that the Americans used chemical weapons on the city.

On 10 November last year, the Islam Online website wrote: "US troops are reportedly using chemical weapons and poisonous gas in its large-scale offensive on the Iraqi resistance bastion of Fallujah, a grim reminder of Saddam Hussein's alleged gassing of the Kurds in 1988."

The website quoted insurgent sources as saying: "The US occupation troops are gassing resistance fighters and confronting them with internationally banned chemical weapons."
(snip/...)

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article325560.ece

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From 11-7-05:
Karmadillo
Mon Nov-07-05 01:25 PM

Iraq: Italian TV alleges U.S. used chemical weapons in Fallujah

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1906845

[JetboyOne]

93. The bastards

couldn't they have at least used 'new' chemical weapons on them?:P

[sam sarrha]

94. but then you wouldnt have that 'smell of burnt flesh in the morning' that

they love so much...

[uppityperson]

95. Good for reporting it. The truth of Fallujah will appall

Appall even me, according to vets I talked with who were there. Get this out in the media. I am glad for the internet, making international news more readily available.

[cal04]

96. BBC reporting it. Wonder if they will make a comment on this

On Thursday, 14 April, 2005, in the article "Did BBC ignore weapons claim?" Director of News Helen Boaden said: "But I repeat the point made by my editors, over many weeks of total access to the military operation, at all levels, we did not see banned weapons being used, deployed, or even discussed. We cannot therefore report their use.

"Of course, we keep an open mind and will always investigate, and report, any hard evidence which comes to light." I would like to inform you about an "hard evidence": In a video you can even watch on line, RAI NEWS 24 shows that indeed the US used chemical weapons on civilians in Fallujah.
This is the link
Since Ms Boaden said: "Of course, we keep an open mind and will always investigate, and report, any hard evidence which comes to light."
I would like to ask you at what time and on which channel the BBC is going to air this breaking news.
Thank you for your attention.
http://www.uruknet.info/.?p=17577&hd=0&size=1&l=x

http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_4390000/newsid_4396600/4396641.stm

[passy]

97. Link here to Italian documentary on Fallujah.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5290815

[info being]

98. Only targeted directly at the enemy of course, no collateral damage

[maxsolomon]

99. it pains me to say it, but

America does not care what weapons are used on people we regard as sub-human. This will disappear down the memory hole, spun to death even if it ever does get any traction. After all, you cannot trust the European media, they are jealous of our freedom, high standards of living, and excellent health care.

Not to mention that Fallujah was what, over a year ago?

What it would take to wake us up i have no idea. Fear of losing your job/house/car & digital cable keep us nice & peaceful like.

[ninkasi]

100. I'm afraid you're right maxsolomon

You say "America does not care what weapons are used on people we regard as sub-human. This will disappear down the memory hole, spun to death even if it ever does get any traction. After all, you cannot trust the European media, they are jealous of our freedom, high standards of living, and excellent health care."

The same people who seem to feel that bombing clinics which furnish abortions is ok because it stops "killing innocent babies" will ignore the tragedy in Fallujah, and the rest of Iraq, because they don't consider brown skinned people, or people who worship Allah, as being fully human.

These people, Bush's true base, are capable of ignoring anything that doesn't conform to their own narrow minded viewpoints. They can warp reasoning into completely meaningless gibberish, and swallow it, because their priests, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, tell them it's ok.

I always wonder why these people, who consider us unpatriotic if we oppose this immoral war, would even consider allegiance to a country which starts aggressive, cruel wars like this, and which kills innocents on a wholesale basis. I love my country, and want to see the return of the America which does not start wars, does not torture, which does respect other people...not the America of the neocon's dreams.

To not be furious about the way we waged war in Falluja, is to admit that you have sold your soul to a vision of complete, depraved, cruelty, which uses brutality to achieve it's results.

[meganmonkey]

101. This made it onto the ABC news website

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1292155

Other than that it looks like just foreign and alternative news sites...

Does anyone in America care?

:shrug:

[WhiteTara]

102. Amy Goodman had a report on that

today. Very detailed and had an interview with the Lt. Col in Iraq who said all the typical...didn't see the film, couldn't hear the question (noise on line)and even after Amy read the Geneva COnvention rules which sounded quite simple to understand, (Amy called him Lieutenant and I could just hear him choking in the background...very unintentionally funny) and the propagandist in Iraq could only say, oh these are not banned weapons and we don't use them on people. The soldier who was part of the interview was a very matter of fact young man who spoke from the point of view of one who had been a participant in the massacre. (The soldier was part of the tac team and did not participate in the actual killing, but in the support of it a couple hundred yards away)

The pictures were more than disturbing and it has redoubled my intention of ending this illegal and immoral war.

IMPEACH BUSH AND SEND THEM ALL TO THE HAGUE

[Khaotic]

104. Isn't This Freaking People Out?

This is truely horrible.

When I was growing up I remember wondering why the Germans didn't rise up against Hitler. Why didn't they fight the regime that brought about the death camps, the gas chambers?

I felt NO remorse for the Germans that died in the bombings. They supported Hitler. They feed thousands of men into the machine that became the Third Reich.

What America did to Germany was deserved. They brought it on themselves. Not just the SS, but all of them.

At least that's how I felt then.

Now, I can only hope that the rest of the world doesn't feel that way about us. No, BushCo doesn't = the Third Reich. But they're responsible for some pretty terrible things.

This is becoming more and more appearant.

I really think that many of the supporters of this regime have no problem with what's going on.

They only pretend to have a problem with it on the surface, but once it's proven they make excuses and defend it. In the end, to them, it's a the means to an end.

The lying, the manipulation. They believe in it ... because it's war!

War!

Civil rights and human rights be damned.

We're dealing with some really messed up people. Their values are equal to those found in the KKK, skin heads, and alike.

Have you ever heard someone from the KKK or a skin head spew their tripe. Just take out the racial references and you have a neocon.

Ted Rall made ref to this in '03 in this cartoon:



These people are mad!

And another thing ... QUIT FOCUSING ON BUSH.

Do you know why? Because he's actually just a little fish in this thing. He's not coordinating. He's not leading. He's a puppet.

Look at this guy:



And he's our President!

This is his last term, unless they resend the 21st Amendment.

He'll slink away and the next neocon in sheep's clothing will come in.

I don't care if McCain is the guy that gets the node, to hell with him too.

Time to expose the entire neocon bunch. If the Republican Party won't distance themselves from these idiots then they all get the boot in '06 and '08.

Expose the Neocons, re-diversify the media, and fix voting machines.

A large order, but without those items, America is doomed.

[dasmarian]

107. yes, i agree

How horrible. Absolutely, terribly horrible. If this is true, our country as a whole has lost the last shreds of it collective decency and it embarrasses me to be a part of it. Those are innocent people being killed horribly for political gain. How can the world not be outraged?

Its not about Bush. Its about the machine -- the facist, horrible machine that this nation is rapidly devolving into -- and that spans both political parties. Maybe there is a lesser of two evils, but neither party is innocent.

How sad.

[Gregorian]

105. Here's the Dailykos discussion. Worth reading.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/8/125531/161

[Junkdrawer]

106. ,