Maghar brothers confess to killing sister in name of family honor

[Behind the Aegis]

"Our sister didn't resist, she was pretty quiet. We brought her from the house to a nearby grove where we strangled her with our hands until she breathed her last breath," one of the Salameh brothers told the police.

Hassan Salameh, 34, and his brother Anwar, 39, were arrested for murdering their sister Abir, 23, on Saturday evening. They live in the Muslim neighborhood of the lower Galilee village of Maghar.

Later that night, they turned themselves in at the Tiberias police station. They told the detectives they had killed Abir to preserve the honor of their family.

The men were arraigned in the Acre Magistrate's Court on Monday. The police, who are treating the case as a premeditated murder, asked for a 15-day detention period, but the judge ordered the Salamehs held for only nine days.

continues...

[Jim Sagle]

1. Shame on you for being culturally insensitive.

:-)

[The Stranger]

16. Oh -- I see. This is supposed to be a smear on the Palestinians.

Your post provided the clue.

[Jim Sagle]

26. No one but you seems to take it that way.

Sorry 'bout that. :rofl:

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Actually...

...your post provided the clue.

[The Stranger]

38. It wasn't too difficult to figure out, really.

The implication is clear, albeit horribly flawed: These criminals somehow represent the rest of the Palestinians -- their "culture" if you will.

Jim Sagle provided all we needed to know about the reason for the thread.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. That is how YOU see it.

They no more represent all Palestinians or Muslims, than the Khane represent all Jews or Israelis!

However, your implication is quite clear: any post about Muslims that doesn't show them as victims of Israeli aggression and oppression is nothing more than a red herring and propaganda because of the person posting. That about right? :eyes:

[The Stranger]

42. Oh, come on.

I guess I could just not post another reply and try to let you save face, but it really is glaringly obvious.

And, truthfully, the Palestinians are victims, in many different respects, regardless of propaganda.

[Behind the Aegis]

43. You are making something from nothing!

Your implications are glaringly clear obvious.

I posted the story because it was a crime and it was being justified in a hideous way. Your posts exemplify the crack that Jim made.

On edit: This was not an I/P topic, which is why I didn't post it there.

[Erika]

2. Don't you know W is making these people our allies? n/t

[Solly Mack]

3. I'm more than a little tired of women dying for such ignorance.

Yes - I do mean ANY religion that devalues women in ANY respect - from separate pews/assemblies to "man as head of the house" to honor killings...and anything and everything in between.

I also mean sexism/misogyny - and honor killings are rooted in misogyny and couched in religion.

If misogyny is "culture" then there is something seriously wrong with the culture....and I mean ANY and ALL "cultures" that have an ounce of misogyny.

[Erika]

4. You are aware that Mormon men can call up their wives to heaven?

Or leave them buried forever. It is up to the man to decide. Talk about misogyny.

[LostinVA]

7. Oh, it's even better than that

Wife gets married to Husband Number One, who gets hit by a car and dies three days after their wedding. She then gets remarried to Husband Number Two, who she is married to for 50 years, and has five children by. However, Husband Number One is who calls her up and who is married to her in Heaven. Or so a Mormon bishop told me once.

[happyslug]

40. Violates Mathew 23-33

23That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24"Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"

29Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

Simply put, Marriage is a earthy institution that does NOT continue after death and the resurrection.

[Solly Mack]

11. I'm aware of Mormon doctrine

[superconnected]

19. Its not okay no matter what doctrine it is.

[smirkymonkey]

18. Hear, hear.

How are minor "sexual infractions" shaming to the family, while the MURDER of one's own family member is NOT???

This culture is fucked up and I don't give a shit about cultural sensitivity.

[blackhorse]

28. I wonder about the reporting of these incidents,

as they seem to be a double-edged sword.

I find this practice brutal. No doubt, most people of western culture do as well. The outrage of the west (if it is ever even expressed in diplomatic channels), however, doesn't seem to make much of an impression on the nations where such acts are perpetrated.

But are these cases also publicized to make a point in muslim nations? A way of pushing an example to reinforce the message to muslim women everywhere how low of a status they have?

BH

[pennylane100]

5. What is wrong with these people.

How on earth do they think they are preserving any family honor. They have
brought shame on their families and as one relative mentioned, condemned all their children to grow up without without a breadwinner and a father (although it sounds like that is a good thing).

I just do not understand it. How could a brother kill his sister with his own hand. What kind of monsters are they. They should spend the rest of their lives in jail.

[JerseygirlCT]

9. Because they are so irrationally concerned with

women's sexuality that they have elevated it to a matter of supreme importance. Nothing matters as much as controlling women. Fearful of the female ability to procreate, and the male's need to be sure children are his own, they need to obsessively control their women. Any move outside that sick, obsessive control is then a big dent to their honor.

It's sick. It's pervasive. It exists in one degree or another across all sorts of cultures. It's also scapegoating on a huge and universal scale: anything wrong is because of women. (Go back to the usually remembered telling of Adam and Eve -- it's all Eve's fault, right? More stories written by the boys.)

[blackhorse]

29. On stories written by the boys

... trying to recall the title of a book I heard about. The author made quite a case that it was the introduction of written language that was the catalyst for the transition from matriarchal societies to patriarchal societies. Wondering if you had read it and recalled the title?

Cheers

BH

[JerseygirlCT]

37. How interesting!

No, I'd not read that. What a thought! Wonder why it would be that written words = male domination? Very interesting indeed...

Thanks!

[BikeWriter]

6. Shit...

[bleedingheart]

8. and they worry about who will raise the men's kids.....

"Who will raise their children while they spend most of their lives in prison?" an uncle said."

Well maybe if the fathers had realized this is the 21st century and not the 13th they would have left their sister alone.

I think they both need to sit in jail for life...send a message to the other potential murderers...this was pure pre-meditated murder.

[JerseygirlCT]

10. Absolutely

Anything less is a horrible miscarriage of justice.

[SharonAnn]

12. Maybe people who are not murderers will raise them?

I don't think it would be a good idea for these men to be raising children. They're obviously committed to their beliefs and would raise their children to believe them.

[NashVegas]

44. My Thoughts, Exactly

I'm not normally a death penalty advocate but this surely would send a message to the brothers.

[Catherine Vincent]

15. Well I guess the uncle will have to raise them.

Sick bastids!

[AnneD]

13. She is only one of 12

that were murdered this year. There were even more in Pakistan, Afghanistan, India, etc. Until these countries value the contributions that women make, this will not stop. I remember that it was customary in China to kill or abort females due to the one child policy. They are now reaping the results of their stupidity. The kidnapping of women in rule areas has begun. They are not kidnapped for money or even to be returned. They are kidnapped to be wives in area where there is such a drastic shortage. One story I read, the woman decided to stay with her kidnapper husband rather than go back to hubby number one.
I have heard that in the tsumnami hit regions, females are at a premium as many women and young children were at home and killed. Females of all ages have no trouble getting a husband and young girls have their choice of suitors. The down side is they have to be watched closely due to the potential risk of kidnapping.
Too bad it take a disaster to open some societies eyes.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. In the American West, the shortage of women helped speed up

acceptance of women's rights. First of all, a woman who didn't like the way her husband or gentleman friend treated her could easily find another. Second, most of these women were right there driving covered wagons and building log cabins and hunting game alongside the men, so any arguments about them being "too delicate" to understand politics or make their own decisions was laughable. The first states that allowed women to vote were all in the West, starting with Wyoming in 1869.

[AnneD]

36. Exactly...

I come from a line of pioneer women...tough as nails every one. The best advice Papa (ggf) gave to all his sons with regard to picking the perfect wife was....pick one that seems strong enough work with you on the farm, but not so strong she scares you. And always treat her like a lady ;) It must have been good advice because we have had many celebrate silver, gold and one emerald anniversary.

[No Exit]

17. That does it. Kill all the Muslims!

They all deserve to die because these brothers killed their sister.

They are evil, horrible people and we must fight them in endless war! Because these brothers murdered their sister!!

Muslims are anti-American! Be prepared to send troops--troops made up of Americans! Thousands of American lives is a small price to pay to eradicate all evil Muslims from the earth!

[superconnected]

20. some people can see the grey

the part where the less progressive muslims need to change. Luckily these men are being tried for homicide in their country.

The post may not be what you want to hear. It's against something some muslims do. But it's no need to jump off the deep end and declare all bad muslim news, secretly trying to defame muslims.

If that's what you're getting at, guess you can join the republicans on their abu ghraib stances. They didn't care about the aberation. They cared that the world found out and considered the reporters anti-american for making us look bad.

[No Exit]

21. Okay, but why are the sins of some Muslims newsworthy, while

the sins of some Israelis are verboten to be discussed on this forum?

Did you know that there is a whole organization--MEMRI--which is devoted to culling the most shocking, the lowest-of-the-low, of articles from the press outlets which cover Arab/Muslim countries, and disseminating those articles to the English-speaking world? MEMRI's apparent purpose is to keep us westerners believing that Muslims/Arabs really are "evil".

What if an organization were to cull articles about OUR (America's) lowest points, our most shameful events? Imagine us depicted as nothing but a bunch of people who mutilate and kill young boys (John Gacy, Dean Corll), strangle and rape young women (Ted Bundy), keep young teenagers in slavery (quasi-Mormon sects), slash innocent pregnant women and others (Manson family), seduce young boys to have sex with women almost twice their age (any of the latest "teacher-student" stories), routinely go on rampages in which innocent people are indiscriminatingly shot (school shootings such as Columbine), rip the tops off mountains and leave nothing but rubble ("mountaintopping" operations to get coal), and think of nothing but buying more and more and more crap we don't need while other persons in the world starve (our whole panorama of TV advertising).

[The Magistrate]

22. Our Cable Television Shows And Newspapers, In Other Words, Sir?

[No Exit]

23. Well... yeah! They must be beamed continuously into all

other countries to show them what we really are!

You know, come to think of it, stories of bizarre rapes, murders, and mutilations, punctuated by frequent speeches by Bush, makes a really interesting snapshot of this country as it is now. (Unfortunately...)

Oh--and the Runaway Bride. Got to have the Runaway Bride.

[The Magistrate]

25. They Pretty Much Are, Sir

It provides entertainment for our multitudes, and is hardly concealed from others....

[No Exit]

30. But, Sir, it is what we really are

... as long as the strange red-state culture is the dominant one. And it appears to be so, Sir.

[The Magistrate]

41. My Opinion Of Human Beings, Sir, Myself Included, Is Pretty Low

[Behind the Aegis]

24. This had NOTHING to do with the I/P conflict.

Talk about conflating issues!

AS for MEMRI, some of those "shocking, the lowest-of-the-low" are not articles, but TV broadcasts (they don't have 120 channels of cable in most places). It shows a segment of what is placed in their mainstream news.

[No Exit]

31. This forum usually doesn't highlight crime stories.

In fact, this forum openly makes light of the excessive attention paid to such stories by certain cable news channels (okay... all of them.)

While the actions described in the story are clearly wrong and despicable, I am tired of hearing about what barbarians Arabs/Muslims are. That mindset is part of what makes the fake "terror" fear cycle go round and round and round. I'm sick of it. It's time we realized that we are being played.

We needn't be on such a high horse about how much more civilized we are than the Arab/Muslim barbarians. Even a cursory look at the lawlessness in this country--beginning with a lawless president--shows us that we have no room to talk. Nor, incidentally, would Israel have room to talk-IF anyone were to "conflate the issues".

[Behind the Aegis]

33. Perceptions

There have been plenty of crime stories here in LBN. As "clearly wrong and despicable" as you think the actions of these people were, should we 'play ostrich' and hide our heads?

As tired as you are of hearing that Arabs/Muslims are barbarians, I am just as tired as hearing that all Jews are more loyal to Israel (no matter their country of origin) and nothing good came come from Israel or her people! I am sick of the 'leftist' attitudes of "Israel is the root of all evil in the ME!"

So, I agree, we shouldn't be so haughty, especially if we look at the lawlessness of the Arab/Muslim nations. Times have changed. Have the Arab nations changed with them?

The US and Israel have a long way to go, but to pretend that the Arab nations don't is foolish and bigoted.

Speaking of being "tired," I am tired of every fucking Jewish politician have to doubly swear they are a citizen of the US and not Israel. I am just as fucking sick and tired as seeing all Jews painted as war-mongers or 'right-wingers' because we support an independent Israel! OH...and don't get me started on how "Israel is responsible for 9-11 and the bombings in London!"

So, this story was about "honor-killing," not I/P! Yet, you conflated the two because of the location! Perhaps the real problem was Israel nor the US is to blame?

[Psephos]

27. That's a lame diversion of focus, in service to an unworthy cause

Every country has a big list of "low points," as you call them. Are you suggesting every time someone in another country does bad to someone else, we haul out the national sin lists, and then withdraw from comment and pretend it's ok to strangle your sister? Let's just stop punishing all crime and begin tolerating all transgressions. Heh.

This kind of fallacious argument is so common it has a name: ad hominem. In short, an ad hominem attack is leveled against a person (or country, if you choose), rather than against the issue itself. In this case, you did not address the issue of honor killings, but instead, attacked the right of anyone in the US to point out it is wrong. Every citizen of every country on Earth could be similarly disqualified.

For a nonpolitical example of the ad hominem fallacy, one might say, "Von Daniken's books about ancient astronauts are worthless because he is a convicted forger and embezzler." (Which is true, but that's not why the books are worthless.)

A common form of the ad hominem fallacy is an attack on sincerity, which I think is what you were after here. For example, "How can you argue for vegetarianism when you wear leather shoes?" The "two wrongs make a right" fallacy, sometimes called "tu quoque" is related. Basically, tu quoque is justifying what you do by pointing out that someone else does it, too. I see that all the time here when people justify mean or shitty things done by Democrats "because Repukes do it." Yeah, that's a great reason all right...let the Repukes determine OUR behavior.

So, bottom line, you justified what those assholes did to their sister by saying (collectively) everyone else does it, too - especially in the US.

Sorry, that doesn't fly. They don't tolerate ad hominem and tu quoque fallacies in high school debate class, and I don't think we should tolerate them in national political discourse either.

No disrespect intended.

Peace.

[No Exit]

32. I'm tired of reading about what barbarians

Arabs/Muslims are. We have plenty of material out there to tell us about their barbarian customs. To me, this just drives the "terror"-fear machine on and on and on.

I still say that we, citizens of a country which invaded another country, for literally no other reason than for empire and material gain, look pretty stupid when we sit around wringing our hands over the barbarous customs of some other people.

If I want to read horror stories about Arabs/Muslims, I can go to that other forum, where posters have taglines like "The smell of dead muslims is the smell of freedom".

This forum usually sticks to politics--at least, in these larger areas such as breaking news--and in fact openly scorns the cable channels' obsession with crime stories. This story would be just another crime story were it not for the Arab/Muslim angle.

You can say what you want about "ad hominem", but the fact is that we are not allowed to post derogatory stories about certain groups. I therefore find it troubling when I see posted a derogatory story which appears to highlight the barbarism of a particular group--whether or not we "have room to talk". So regardless of whether we say "everyone else does it", my opinion is that this story does not provide food for any discussion other than one of crime. If I want to discuss crime, there are several good forums such as Websleuths. I come here to read about politics. (Yes, I know there is a lounge, too, and there are poetry posts, yes, I know.) That's my opinion.

[Dulcinea]

35. That's barbaric.

A sick, disgusting, medieval practice that should be punishable by death. Yes, death for the perps. An eye for an eye in this case!