Venezuela Backs Plan to Sell Oil in Euros

[Barrett808]

CARACAS, Venezuela — Venezuela's oil minister said Thursday that he backs the idea of selling oil in euros instead of U.S. dollars, a proposal also supported by fellow OPEC member Iran.

"Iran has an initiative that we support. They are going to start to do oil transactions in euros," Oil Minister Rafael Ramirez said in an interview with state television.

Selling oil in euros would in theory boost world demand for the European currency at the expense of the dollar.

Analysts have said the proposal is highly unlikely to materialize but could in theory have serious consequences for the U.S. economy by undermining the value of the dollar and diminishing its status as the currency used in central-bank reserves.

(more)

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/3920101.html

[Mikimouse]

1. If thats what it takes to end US imperialism, then...

it would be difficult to argue against it.

[sweetheart]

2. They read DU

We've given away the secret to destroying the petrodollar, and we are
the traitors!! oh dear! oo!!! :-) ha. Bush is being pounded in to the
ground along with everyone and everything that has anything to do with him.

God pounds his nail. Get out of the way of the hammer. Every republican
that stands with bush will be pounded in to the earth by a giant hammer,
and everything they stand for will cease for the lord's will.

All hail the giant hammer!

[Mikimouse]

3. The only difficulty with that concept is this...

once they are in the ground, how does one prevent them from sprouting?:evilgrin:

Oh, and a member of Clan Gordon says hello to you (I looked at your profile, hope you don't mind)

[sweetheart]

4. from "Historic MacKay Country"

back at ya! :hi:

Slainte, :toast:

[cantstandbush]

49. Get the full story by listening to or reading Chavez's speech.

You need to know the first-hand message of this speech and not an opinion about it.

[ronnie624]

16. Agreed.

The greedy, murderous corporatist elements within the U.S. political power structure must be stopped one way or another lest they destroy us all.

[Walt Disney]

5. Well, one thing's for sure, the rational members of OPEC do not

agree with the fat little fascist from Caracas.

However, it is interesting to note that Iran does agree.

[frylock]

6. the rational members of OPEC..

you must mean the ones who finance terrorist organizations.

[Walt Disney]

21. Well, if you think that Ahmadinejad and Chavez are the rational ones,

what else can I say?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Disney]

51. No straw man here or there, my friend.

Just two birds of a feather.

You can call me whatever you like, however; I will call your boy what he is. And Chavez is nothing more than a fat little a tyrant.

[Andrushka]

7. What's

"irrational" about selling oil in Euros?

(and "fat little fascist from Caracas"? WTF?!)

[Walt Disney]

22. It doesn't make any sense from a financial point of view.

And besides that, Bush is doing more harm to the dollar than the little punk from Caracas could ever hope to do.

<<<Then there is the question of what the holders of euros are going to do with their money. With Britain and Norway, two major oil producers, excluded from the euro currency zone, the euro bond market is dwarfed by the dollar bond market, to the point where there is no place in Europe to invest prospective vast sums of petro-euros.

By and large, once crude transactions take place in euros, the euros are exchanged for dollars. In November 2000, when Saddam Hussein announced he would switch international transactions from a US dollar standard to euros, a United Nations study estimated that Iraq's initial shift in pricing cost the country at least $270 million in transaction and other costs. Saddam recouped that money when the euro rose 17% against the dollar on other factors.>>>

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/HC17Dj02.html

[MGKrebs]

25. I'm curious about Norway and England being excluded

from the Euro currency zone? What does that mean and why is it so? Is that just referring to their choice to not use the Euro (yet)?

[Walt Disney]

28. Yes, that’s pretty much it.

The absence of Britain and Norway means a smaller euro market. If the sellers of oil are going to do something with their profits other stashing them under the mattress, they must convert most of them to dollars anyway.

The other factor relates to the "Donald Trump syndrome." If you recall, in the early 90's, Trump was technically bankrupt. However, those who had invested in him could not afford to let him fail. So, they restructured his debt beyond the realm of a normal bankruptcy restructuring.

The world (Japan and China in particular) cannot afford to let the US fail.

[donbrunton]

31. And the Dutch?

As in Royal Dutch Shell?

The king of refining?

Sure the Norwegians and UK are pulling it out of the ground.

But who controls?

As for the Norwegians, according to Chris Cook, former director of the International Petroleum Exchange, he\'s advised the Norwegians to bail and start their own bourse in Euro - like the Iranians.

Don\'t believe me?

Google yourself.

[mbperrin]

30. Warren Buffett buys euros; surely he knows something financial?

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0110/036.html



A Word From A Dollar Bear
Robert Lenzner and Daniel Kruger , 01.10.05

Warren Buffett's vote of no confidence in U.S. fiscal policies is up to $20 billion.
The dollar has fallen savagely against the euro for the past three years, and the trade deficit is running $55 billion a month. Is the currency rout over? Can the trade deficit be fixed with a rise in interest rates or an upward revaluation of the Chinese currency? Warren Buffett, the world's most visible dollar bear, says the answer to both these questions is no. His bet against the dollar, reported at $12 billion in his last annual report (for Dec. 31, 2003), has gotten all the bigger. Now his Berkshire Hathaway has a $20 billion bet in favor of the euro, the pound and six other foreign currencies.

Buffett has for a long time been lecturing fellow Americans about their bad habit of borrowing from abroad to live well today. He made a big stink about his currency trades in his March 2004 letter to shareholders. FORBES phoned him recently for an update, hoping for the news that the Scold of Omaha had softened his views on the decline of the dollar. What we got was more doom and gloom, more than we have ever heard from the man. In other words, he is not about to cover his short position on the dollar.

Buffett said that he began buying foreign currency forward contracts when the euro was worth 86 U.S. cents, and kept buying until the price reached $1.20. It's now worth $1.33. Buffett said he is not adding new positions now but has been rolling over contracts as they mature. Berkshire lost $205 million on currency speculations in the first half of 2004, but more than made that back with a $412 million gain in the third quarter. It's likely that the December quarter report will show another huge gain.
<more>

Simply, dollar holders will get less and less for their money and euro holders will get more and more. Which sounds more rational?

[Walt Disney]

52. You are behind the times, my friend. Come with me to the present.

<<<Buffet, who reportedly lifted his bet against the buck to a position of $22 billion and counting in the first quarter this year, isn’t sounding quite so smug anymore.>>>

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P116165.asp

[MadHound]

33. Actually selling oil in Euros makes perfect sense

Considering how weak the dollar is right now, and for the forseeable future. All that debt that we've piled up in the past six years puts the dollar squarely on the cliff edge, teetering towards a fall. One little gust would destroy it, and our economy along with it. Selling in Euros makes perfect sense, hell, even selling in Canadian Loonies would make more sense than dollars.

Oh, by the by, that "fat little fascist" as you so lovingly call him, was democratically elected by the people of Venezula, unlike our current leader. In a free and fair election no less.

[Walt Disney]

53. My friend, whatever you do, please stay out of the financial adviser

business.

While I can not argue that boy george has done much harm to the $, it is by no means "squarely on the cliff edge, teetering towards a fall."

Like stocks, the value of the $ goes up and down; sometimes due to market forces and sometimes due to speculation and manipulation.

Nevertheless, it is still the "world's currency" and it will remain so well into the future.

[redqueen]

35. Converting to Euros makes no sense?

On what planet?

:rofl:

[Walt Disney]

54. Oh, god...

:shrug:

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Disney]

56. Okay, so you are betting against the $. That might have made

sense a couple years ago, but it certainly doesn't make sense now.

Moreover, aside from Ahmadinejad and Chavez, OPEC doesn't think it makes sense either.

[Andrushka]

50. A Mickey Mouse economics lesson?

EOM

[leesa]

9. I remember you. And you would certainly know what a fascist is!

[dweller]

10. LOL

:spray:


dp

[Walt Disney]

23. Yes, I do. Salute der fuhrer.

[stepnw1f]

38. dumb... just dumb

[killbotfactory]

11. do you know what a fascist is?

[jerry611]

12. A fascist is...

According to Webster's Dictionary, a fascist is:
"A reactionary or dictatorial person"

Fascism:
1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

Socialists can be fascists too. It's not limited to one side of the spectrum. Fascism is a system of government, not a philosophy of government.
Fascism comes from the latin word, "fasces." It was a bundle of rods used in ancient Rome to symbolize the power of the magistrates.

[1932]

14. fascism |?fa sh ?iz?m| (also Fascism) noun

an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. • (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice. The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43), and the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach.DERIVATIVES fascist noun & adjective fascistic |fa? sh istik| adjective ORIGIN from Italian fascismo, from fascio ‘bundle, political group,’ from Latin fascis (see fasces ).

Taking political power from the wealthy and devolving it to community groups, investing in education, social services, worker-owned cooperatives, building cities to replace the slums, increasing employment, addressing inflation, making life better for the majority of the people -- none of that is right-wing.

[nick303]

42. What dictionary is this from?

Doesn't sound like a dictionary.

Gotta be fair.

[1932]

44. Oxford American.

[Flanker]

15. Webster's definition zzzzz

I will stick with the man that founded the fascia party and coined the term fascism: Mussolini et al.

[AllieB]

40. "Socialists can be fascists too."

No, they can't. How many times do we have to EXPLAIN this to you? :eyes:

[nick303]

43. By the book definitions,

socialists can be fascists.

This is not a matter of opinion.

[leftchick]

60. It sounds like the USA to me!

Viva Chavez!

[ronnie624]

17. He doesn't want to know.

He is on an ideologically inspired mission.

[Walt Disney]

24. Absolutely; however, the context of your question suggests that you do not

Let me help you, for the difference between fascism and socialism is ever so slight. Indeed, they are so slight that they are essentially the same. The intent may differ, but in practice, both are predisposed towards the consolidation of political power.

Socialism typically favors central ownership to a greater degree, while fascism emphasizes government control over private ownership more than government control over property itself. But the long and the short of is that they both exercise rigorous economic control.

And that my friend, is neither liberal or progressive.

[1932]

26. COMMUNISTS believe in centrally controlled economies. Socialists believe

that the state and the community have a right to regulate the economy. They're against unregulated free markets. Communists believe that the government should own all means of production and that all decisions about the economy (how much to produce, how to allocate resources) should be made by the government and not by the market.

Venezuela is interested in the public ownership of one single entity -- the 'brains' behind PDVSA. They believe that every other industry should be privately owned and they absolutely do not believe in central control and decision-making. In fact, Chavez's party was founded with a coalition of parties including La Causa R, which is critical of centrally-controlled, bureaucratized government control of, for example, the steel industry in Ciudad Guayana, and powerful state development agencies, like CVG, and wants to end state support for mega-industries.

Chavez's government operates on the historical lesson learned in the '80s -- state capitalism, financed by oil sales, destroyed entire industries when the price of oil dropped. Venezuela does not want to build an economy that is dependent on swings in the price of oil. That is why they've incorporated La Causa R's economic policies and are building worker-owned industries. That's why they're supportive of entrepreneurialsm at all levels. If you read the news coming out of Venezuela, these ideas are revealed in countless stories. This is also in Chapter 18 of Gott's book on Chavez.

Tell me, did you really not know this about Venezuela?

I don't understand how people who know so little about an issue can be so passionate in posting over and over again their lightly-informed opinions. You'd think that the more someone knew, they more they'd post on that issue, rather than the inverse.

[Walt Disney]

29. "Tell me, did you really not know this about Venezuela?"

<<<Venezuela plans to invest $700 million this year to build four state-run companies ... and several housing tracts in Bolivar state, ...Later we'll build Aluminum City and Diamond City," Chavez said.>>>

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=a830.2qVxgRM&refer=latin_america

You can spin it whatever way you prefer, my friend; but the facts of reality speak for themselves.

Your boy seeks total control over all facets of human activity. In other words, he is a fascist. What I don’t understand is that since you seem to favor this sort of controlling authority in your life, why don’t you relocate to Venezuela?

For I am sure you would be much happier there, as opposed to being here with those of us who favor a free society.

[donbrunton]

32. Free?

Hahaha...

Don`t make me laugh.



Not to mention the fact that the USA has more people in Jail percentage wise and gross total than any nation on the planet.

You can keep your ``freedom`` thanks.

Gates of Eden: A Nation in Chains

Beneath the thunder of the mighty cataclysms unleashed by the Bush Administration – the war crime in Iraq, the global torture gulag, the epic corruption, the gutting of the Constitution, the open embrace of presidential tyranny – a quieter degradation of American society has continued apace. And this slow descent into barbarism didn`t begin with George W. Bush – although his illicit regime certainly represents the apotheosis of the dark forces driving the decay.

With the world`s attention understandably diverted by the latest scandals and shameless posturings of the Bush Faction – domestic spying, bribes and hookers at the CIA, military units roaring down to the border to scare unarmed poor people looking for work – few noticed a small story that cast a harsh, penetrating light on the corrosion of the national character.

Earlier this month, the International Centre for Prison Studies at King`s College London released its annual World Prison Population List. And there, standing proudly at the head of the line, towering far above all others, is that shining city on the hill, the United States of America. But strangely enough, the Bush gang and its many media sycophants failed to celebrate – or even note – yet another instance where a triumphant America leads the world. Where are the cheering hordes shouting ``USA! USA!`` at the news that the land of the free imprisons more people than any other country in the world – both in raw numbers and as a percentage of its population?

Yes, the world`s greatest democracy now has more than two million of its citizens locked up in iron cages: an incarceration rate of 714 per 100,000 of the national population, the Centre reports. The only countries within shouting distance are such bastions of penological enlightenment as China (1.55 million prisoners, plus some unsorted ``administrative detainees``), Russia (a wimpy 763,000) and Brazil (330,000), whose exemplary prison management has been on such prominent display this week.

SNIP

http://www.chris-floyd.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=662&Itemid=1

[Judi Lynn]

46. Certain elements of our country are so taken with the idea of having

the world's highest prison population per capita, that they love to watch "Cops" on Saturday nights at Fox, in order to see more people being rounded up to pitch into the system, and MSNBC runs weekend primetime shows peering into the bowels of prisons all over the country so those who are inclined can see how the inmates like being in the "big house."

I believe other cable networks also feed the unhealthy fascination of seeing criminals behind bars. I'm sure it gets a little crowded in prisons currently, having to make room for all the camera crews to wedge themselves in to allow slow Americans get a good long GAPE at them.

There is always the constant, ongoing quest to find even more actions or behaviors to criminalize, which could lead to creating a greater need for more prisons, the additional employment, etc., etc., etc., etc.

It's no shock the _Bushes were friendly with George Wackenhut who started the country's largest prison system. Personal, adorable aspects of Wackenhut's character:

George Wackenhut was known as a hard-line right-winger. He built up dossiers on Americans suspected of being Communists or left-leaning "subversives and sympathizers" and sold the information to interested parties. Age of Surveillance by Frank Donner (ISBN 0394747712) claims the Wackenhut Corporation maintained and updated its files even after the McCarthy hysteria had ebbed, adding the names of antiwar protesters and civil rights demonstrators to its list of "derogatory types." By 1965, Wackenhut was boasting to potential investors that the company maintained files on 2.5 million suspected dissidents - one in 46 American adults then living. In 1966, after acquiring the private files of Karl Barslaag, a former staff member of the House Committee on Un-American Activities, Wackenhut could claim that with more than 4 million names, it had the largest privately held file on suspected dissidents in America. In 1975, after the US Congress investigated companies that had private files, Wackenhut gave its files to the now-defunct anti-Communist Church League of America of Wheaton, Illinois.
(snip/...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wackenhut



The late Wackenhut.

[Walt Disney]

55. Okay, so in your opinion, Bin Laden is all about freedom.

Whatever you say, my friend. :shrug:

[PeaceProgProsp]

41. "A new economic model"

"Venezuela suffers a distortion because many of us are excluded from production, from wealth and services," said Lanz, 62, a key architect of Chavez's reforms. "We are constructing a new economic model."

The road so far has been rocky. Faced with violent protests and a bitter recall referendum, Chavez spent his first six years in office fighting for his political life even as he poured billions of dollars into social programs.

But now, with the political opposition vanquished and oil prices near record highs, the Venezuelan leader is in a strong position to launch what he describes as "21st Century Socialism."

Eschewing Marxism-Leninism, Lanz says, Chavez has developed an economic model called "endogenous development" whereby state oil money will finance the creation of thousands of small-scale cooperatives in agricultural and other areas to provide jobs and foster community development.

A second leg of Chavez's master plan is something known as "cogestion," roughly translated as co-management, where the state is helping workers purchase shares of companies they work in to give them a greater say in management.

The goal of all this, they say, is to lift millions out of poverty by reducing Venezuela's reliance on oil, which has left the country with a weak manufacturing and agricultural base and over-dependent on imports of food and almost everything else.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1503

It took me literally two seconds to google that article.

[Walt Disney]

57. New? There is nothing new about dictatorial economic control, my friend.

It has been tried many, many times. And it has always failed.

[1932]

59. Actually, there's nothing new about your Edward Bernays-style spin

which denies the facts.

And speaking of things that don't work, how about what was going on BEFORE Chavez became president?

You know what didn't work? Corrupt state capitalism of the kind La Causa R criticized didn't work (and that's why Chavez has incorporated La Causa R's economic platform as his government's policy). And giving away the wealth of the nation to foreign oil companies didn't work. Also, not having any industry other than oil receive resources and government attention didn't work.

I think that it's right that Venezuela should try something different. And I think you post all these alarmed, un-informed posts because your fear is that these policies WILL work. If you really believed they wouldn't, you'd probably sit back and gleefully watch.

[zreosumgame]

36. looks like they never thawed out your head Walt

you seem content to toss around terms you obviously do not the meanings of, so that makes your opinions of little or no value.

[GirlinContempt]

39. Wow

That's astoundingly silly.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

20. You'll learn these creeps can see your post, and continue to hurl

their labels at DU'ers as if nothing had ever happened. It's astonishing to see a right-winger trying to talk what would have to be complete imbeciles into believing his definition of "fascist." No shame whatsoever. It's not expedient.

I've never heard of "fascism" as applying to leftists, not once. (Not by a sane person.)

Thank you for your post, I've marked it for future reference, as it's just great. Also, thanks for posting the stats on Venezuela's defense and social spending in another thread.

[Walt Disney]

58. Judi Lynn, you must get out more often;

for your ideas and definitions are as tired and shopworn as any I have ever encountered. You say, you have "never heard of "fascism" as applying to leftists, not once."

What about Stalin? Pol Pot? Mugabe? Do you put them on the same level as good and noble men like King and Ghandi?

Your left-right designations are one-dimensional and as such, they do not allow for a logical depiction of tyrants on the so-called "left."

It's not about "left vs. right," darling; it's about freedom vs. tyranny.

[Judi Lynn]

27. P.D., if you see what happened to your post, would you repost

your definitions? You can be sure many DU'ers would find them helpful.

I bookmarked your post. I should have copied and pasted it for a permanent copy which couldn't be deleted.

Thank you.

[AnOhioan]

34. I think you need to look up the word ''fascist" n/t

[stepnw1f]

37. I Didn't Know Rove was in Caracas

It must be lonely here...

[cantstandbush]

8. Uh oh, we'll have to delay attacking Iran to attack Venezuela. n/t

[ShockediSay]

13. wanna invest in a deficit riven dollar???

not me nor some half the conservatives in the US

[Vidar]

18. Viva Chavez!

[Terran1212]

61. Do we have to liberate us some venezuelans and Iranians now?

[Eurobabe]

62. Here we go!

This should be interesting...