Italy still wants justice from US for Iraq shooting

[maddezmom]

ROME, March 4 (Reuters) - Italy has raised the stakes in a spat with the United States over the killing by a U.S. soldier of an Italian intelligence agent in Iraq, saying Washington must set things right by assuming responsibility for the death.

~snip~


His speech made the national media, with headlines such as that in Sunday's La Repubblica newspaper of Rome: "D'Alema accuses the United States over the Calipari case."

Calipari became a national hero for securing freedom for kidnapped journalist Giuliana Sgrena. He died shielding her from gunfire at the checkpoint just after her release.

A Rome judge last month ordered the U.S. soldier to stand trial for the killing but Washington has refused to hand him over and considers the case closed.

"The name of the person who is believed to have fired the shots is known. Whatever the truth is, this was a lost opportunity for the Americans," D'Alema said. "Right now, there is a need for justice to be done."

Mario Lozano, of the U.S. Army's 69th Infantry Regiment, has been charged with voluntary homicide for the shooting. The trial begins next month and Lozano will be tried in absentia.
more:http://mobile.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L04550392.htm

[Solo_in_MD]

1. Not sure what they really want for an accident with contributory errors on both sides

The charge against the Lozano is total horsehit.

[acmavm]

2. Out of curiosity, why do you say that?

[Solo_in_MD]

4. Because both sides made mistakes and there is no evidence of a nefarious plot

What is generally accepted:

- The car did not slow or stop for the roadblock in an appropriate manner (bad on them)

- The people in the car were in communication with a liason office but the soliders manning the roadblock had no warning of the VIP car's approach (bad on the US)

- At no point were the operational troops doing anything other than following the standard ROE, and they beleived they were acting in self defense.


It was a fog of war accident, tragic, but an accident

[acmavm]

7. Generally accepted by whom? And please, show me the proof. There

must be some reason for the Italians to believe they should be able to go to trial.

I mean, it's not like the troops don't have a history of shooting first, not bothering to ask any questions later.

[struggle4progress]

11. Or they were shot from behind by a tank beside the road with no roadblock

You realize, I suppose, that the Italians involved in the so-called "joint US-Italian inquiry" refused to sign off on the report

[struggle4progress]

9. My truth (Giuliana Sgrena 06 March 2005) (and other links)

... Nicola Calipari sat next to me. The driver twice called the embassy and in Italy that we were heading towards the airport that I knew was heavily patrolled by U.S. troops. They told me that we were less than a kilometer away...when...I only remember fire. At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us, shutting up forever the cheerful voices of a few minutes earlier.

The driver started yelling that we were Italians. "We are Italians, we are Italians." Nicola Calipari threw himself on me to protect me and immediately, I repeat, immediately I heard his last breath as he was dying on me. I must have felt physical pain. I didn't know why. But then I realized my mind went immediately to the things the captors had told me. They declared that they were committed to the fullest to freeing me but I had to be careful, "the Americans don't want you to go back." Then when they had told me I considered those words superfluous and ideological. At that moment they risked acquiring the flavor of the bitterest of truths ...

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/



Italian Journalist: U.S. Lied (CBS - April 13, 2005)

... The Italian government says the Americans should’ve been prepared for Sgrena’s approach, because they say U.S. commanders were informed about the rescue mission in advance. Sgrena told 60 Minutes Wednesday that at one point, her driver was on the phone updating their progress to Italian and American officers at the airport ...

... the Army issued this statement on the night of the shooting: “Vehicle traveling at high speed refused to stop at a check point.” “attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots…when the driver didn’t stop the soldiers shot into the engine block which stopped the vehicle.” ...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/12/60II/main687555.shtml


Transcript: Giuliana Sgrena interview

... When did you become aware that your car was being fired at?

We had no signal. We were just on the way to the airport. They started to shoot at us without any light or signal. There was no block, there was nothing. It was so immediate. I didn't know how I was alive after all that attack ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4324251.stm


Friday, March 25th, 2005
Naomi Klein Reveals New Details About U.S. Military Shooting of Italian War Correspondent in Iraq

... And the other thing that Giuliana told me that she's quite frustrated about is the description of the vehicle that fired on her as being part of a checkpoint. She says it wasn't a checkpoint at all. It was simply a tank that was parked on the side of the road that opened fire on them. There was no process of trying to stop the car, she said, or any signals. From her perspective, they were just -- it was just opening fire by a tank. The other thing she told me that was surprising to me was that they were fired on from behind ...

What Giuliana knows is simply what happened from the moment of her release to this day, and her description is that she didn't see any of those signals, and she really wants people to know that she was not on a road with any checkpoints, and in fact, she told me many times that Iraqis are not in any way able to access this road. It's not the road that we hear described so many times as being a road with roadside bombs going off all the time, with checkpoints that you have to pass through. It's a completely separate road, actually a Saddam-era road, it would seem, that allowed his vehicles to pass directly from the airport to his palace. And now that is the U.S. military base at the airport directly to the U.S.-controlled Green Zone and the U.S. Embassy ...

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/25/1516242


Wednesday, April 27th, 2005
Giuliana Sgrena Blasts U.S. Cover Up, Calls for U.S. and Italy to Leave Iraq

... AMY GOODMAN: They say the soldiers used hand and arm signals, flashed white lights and fired warning shots to get the driver to stop.

GIULIANA SGRENA: No, they didn’t. No, no. No light, no air fire, nothing at all. They were beside the road. They were not on the street. They were away ten meters, and they didn’t give us any sign that they were there, so we didn’t saw them before they started to shoot.

AMY GOODMAN: Did they shoot from the front or from the back?

GIULIANA SGRENA: No, on the back, not on the front. They shot on the back, because Calipari was on the back on the right and he was shot dead immediately, and I was injured on my shoulder, but I was shot by the back. So I am a proof that they were shooting on the back and not in front of the car. We can see by my injured where I was shot ...

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/27/1350235


Italy, U.S. disagree over death of Italian agent
Last Updated: Friday, April 29, 2005 | 10:39 PM ET
CBC News

... Italy's foreign minister, Gianfranco Fini, said there was no way the Italians could have approved of the American version of events. "The Italian government could not have been asked to sign off on reconstruction of the facts that as far as we know does not correspond to what happened that night," he told reporters.

Fini said a final report will be released in a few days which will make it clear "why the Italian government could not sign off a reconstruction of events that in our opinion does not capture 100 per cent what happened."

Italy has launched its own criminal inquiry into Calipari's death ...

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2005/04/29/italy-us050429.html

[libodem]

16. Oh, huh

I don't think so. The Army wanted that reporter dead! What's the matter with you?

[MasonJar]

3. As I understand it, the Italians had informed the US that the car was on the way to

the airport where a plane was waiting. It may be that the soldiers were told to kill the Italians, since the journalist possibly had a story that might be revealing about America's actions. But in any case the deaths were murders pure and simple, either by direct order or by some sort of undetermined mistake.

[Solo_in_MD]

5. Mistakes are not murder. It was a fog of war tragic mistake, nothing more

[davhill]

10. The Fog of War is not an Impersonal Force

If the soldiers at the checkpoint were "just following orders" then the responsibility for the deaths and those of hundreds of other innocent civilians lie with those who set up the rules of engagement. Ultimately, of course, the responsibility lies with those who started this stupid war anyway.

[struggle4progress]

13. How can conclusions be reached after the evidence is destroyed?

Iraq: U.S. Checkpoints Continue to Kill

(Washington D.C., May 5, 2005) --

... The checkpoint killing of an Italian intelligence officer shows that the army still hasn’t taken basic precautions to protect civilians ...

Of particular concern is the failure by U.S. forces to preserve and document the site for evidentiary purposes, as well as the U.S. Army’s willful destruction of evidence. Preservation of the shooting site for photographs and analysis would have helped the U.S. military better understand the shooting and could have led to better civilian protections.

Equally disturbing was that U.S. forces manning the checkpoint destroyed duty logs from the unit that took part in the shooting. All evidence in such cases should be preserved so that lessons can be learned and incorporated to enhance civilian protections in future checkpoint situations. Destroying evidence might also amount to obstruction of justice with respect to disciplinary or criminal investigations. Human Rights Watch urged the U.S. military to preserve evidence relating to serious checkpoint incidents, particularly if there are civilian deaths ...

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/05/04/iraq10578_txt.htm

[Kagemusha]

6. The point is telling "the US" doesn't necessarily include "the soldiers"

So "the US" might have known and the soldiers who actually pulled the trigger had not the first clue. That's not good, but it's not totally implausible at all.

[Zodiak]

8. Very true. Then the responsibility lies with the US

who could have told the soldiers and didn't. Neglect is the #1 M.O. of BushCo in committing these types of crimes.

But getting to the truth starts with the trial of this soldier. The Italians deserve their day in court.

I do not think that Sgrena's attack was purely an accident in a fog of war, but rather, a planned accident. Much like the Iraq War, 9/11, and the response to Katrina.

I know one is not to attribute to malice what can be explained with incompetence, but I think that BushCo hides behind this dictim. It seems to me that the incompetence is used as a tool to get BushCo what it wants and allows them to "aww shucks" responsibility away.

[hack89]

19. So the answer is to let the soldier take the fall?

you really think that if he went to trial it would lead to someone further up the chain being punished? No way - the soldier would rot in jail and the administration would wash their hands of the entire matter as "solved".

[Solo_in_MD]

22. The solider is not going on trial, the in absentia show trial is effectively meaningless

It will be a judicial farce that will embarass the Italian Government.

[Zodiak]

23. If the evidence shows the soldier innocent

I see no reason to fear a trial. It is you who are presuming guilt and predicting that he will take the fall.

I suspect the soldier is innocent and the real culpability is up the food chain, but a trial must go forward first for those facts to come to the fore.

[hack89]

25. The idea that he will get a fair trial is ridiculous.

politically motivated show trials are not known for justice. He will be a sacrifice to Italian anti-Americanism. And the true guiltily will get off scott free.

[Zodiak]

26. you have a low opinion of the Italians

I personally do not see evidence that such a trial would be unfair.

As it stands now, the Italians are denied justice and denied the truth, and it is THIS country that is making the political moves.

[struggle4progress]

12. A man in a tank, who shoots someone from behind without warning. has no responsibility?

[Kagemusha]

14. It's possible, but that's as far as I'm going here.

I mean if the guy in a tank thinks that a car bomb's threatening to go past his position and blow up some other Americans up the road, yes, you shoot from behind, no question. The guy in the tank should have been told to not shoot at such and such car because it was Italians working with the US on a special operation. He apparently wasn't.

Or, of course, he could've been told to shoot in cold blood - how would we ever know? I cannot assign or take away responsibility in rhetoric with such an imperfect accounting of the facts.

[Solo_in_MD]

15. Not likely

They were generic soliders, 1st Armored Div if I remember correctly (its been a while since I wrote on this). Basically your neighbors, but in uniform. They were not special ops types. An order to commit murder is illegal and would have been refused, just as you and I would refuse it. There is no evidence that the troops at the roadblock had foreknowledge and executed the Italians. The murder charge is total BS.

There are those who claim that the US higher ups knew of the roadblock but did not tell the Italians or the troops manning it and therefore set up both sides in a Rovian fashion. However, there has been no evidence of that either, and that is not what the Italians are charging.

[libodem]

17. Have you ever tallied up the amount of dead reporters in Iraq

since this occupation started. Many were fragged. There is No good news in Iraq if you haven't noticed. Bush wants to hide the real news. The Decider-Commander-in-Chief wants to hide the truth via the "fog of war", theories. Brush up on your facts, Solo. You are wrong.

[Solo_in_MD]

18. Why does that have any bearing on bogus charge and illegal trial?

Yes a lot of reporters have died. Not relevant to the current discussion.

[Lena inRI]

20. You want only relevant questions?

1--Why didn't the soldier get an order to shoot out the tires if the moving vehicle was the problem?

2--Why did the soldier AIM for the reporter and not the driver which would have stopped the moving vehicle problem?

3--Why don't the Italians have the right to question this soldier regarding the exact order he received?

4--Why can't the soldier be subpoenaed as a witness if not served a warrant as a defendant to get to the bottom of the investigation?

Being Italian-American myself, I want to know these answers so why shouldn't the Italians get their answers?

I'm SO ENRAGED at how an Italian-American soldier(MARIO LOZANO) was selected to pull the trigger on Giuliana. . .was that supposed to make it appear,as you say, more like a MISTAKE SINCE UNO PAESANO WOULDN'T DELIBERATELY MURDER UNA PAESANA?

Bravissimo Italia. . .go get the ratbastards!
:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:

[Solo_in_MD]

21. Try these

1--Why didn't the soldier get an order to shoot out the tires if the moving vehicle was the problem?
Go watch COPS sometime...blown tires do not stop a moving car

2--Why did the soldier AIM for the reporter and not the driver which would have stopped the moving vehicle problem?
If you have tried make a crossing shot on a fast moving target, especially at night, you would understand this was not exactly a sniper situation.

3--Why don't the Italians have the right to question this soldier regarding the exact order he received?
Presumptively he gave a statement to the original investigation. The Italian government was part of that that investigation. While they did not concur with the conclusion, there has not been any public comment made that they did not get to ask questions of witnesses or participants to their satisfaction.

4--Why can't the soldier be subpoenaed as a witness if not served a warrant as a defendant to get to the bottom of the investigation?
Its not clear that the Hague Convention was followed. There is also the small matter of the historical protection afforded soldiers in combat.

Being Italian-American myself, I want to know these answers so why shouldn't the Italians get their answers?
Have you read what portions of the report that were published? Not sure why anyone's ancestry is relevant to any of this.

I'm SO ENRAGED at how an Italian-American soldier(MARIO LOZANO) was selected to pull the trigger on Giuliana. . .was that supposed to make it appear,as you say, more like a MISTAKE SINCE UNO PAESANO WOULDN'T DELIBERATELY MURDER UNA PAESANA?
Selected? Where are your getting that from? How would anyone know who would be manning the gun on that vehicle at that roadblock? That decision was made at the lowest level, and was most likely rotated. I still don't get the ancestry thing, since I doubted it mattered to the Italian governement or any other rational person.

There is lots of room to argue that the US should never have been in Iraq. We can conjecture about a setup at higher level, but there is nothing to support apriori targeting of the Italians by the troops at that roadblock. Not one shred. That makes the murder charge specious (requires malice aforethought). Common sense, a basic knowledge of US troops, and Occam's Razor all point to a fog of war incident.

[Zodiak]

24. That is why the trial should occur

so the facts come out.