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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 02:49 PM
Original message
Professor fired over class discussion of shootings
Source: CNN

BOSTON, Massachusetts (AP) -- An adjunct professor was fired after leading a classroom discussion about the Virginia Tech shootings in which he pointed a marker at some students and said "pow."

The five-minute demonstration at Emmanuel College on Wednesday, two days after a student killed 32 people on the Virginia Tech campus, included a discussion of gun control, whether to respond to violence with violence, and the public's "celebration of victimhood," said the professor, Nicholas Winset.

During the demonstration, Winset pretended to shoot some students. Then one student pretended to shoot Winset to illustrate his point that the gunman might have been stopped had another student or faculty member been armed.

"A classroom is supposed to be a place for academic exploration," Winset, who taught financial accounting, told the Boston Herald.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2007/EDUCATION/04/23/professor.fired.ap/
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. There's no accounting for wing-nuts.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. Had the prof been teaching in a criminal justice program
that might have been appropriate. But accounting? Go back to your spreadsheets and audits.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. hmmm: he was asked to address the issue.
Edited on Mon Apr-23-07 04:18 PM by endarkenment
"He said administrators had asked the faculty to engage students on the issue. But on Friday, he got a letter saying he was fired and ordering him to stay off campus."

I guess that didn't mean to actually discuss the issue, or at least in particular not the gun-nut assertion that arming everyone with glocks would make for a safer world.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. As opposed to the "celebration of assholehood"...
what an insensitive clod.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. Firing an adjunct prof. Eh, no biggie. He's got another job somewhere.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. Duplicate: Emmanuel professor fired after shooting re-enactment
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meldroc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. So much for freedom of speech...
Gotta love the zero-tolerance paranoia that we're going to see even more of, thanks to the VT shooting.

Can anyone here actually defend firing a professor for pointing a magic marker and saying "Bang!"? Totally fucking ridiculous.
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DrunkenMaster Donating Member (582 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. BullSquat
He was an economics teacher: he had no freaking business advocating the elimination of campus-based gun safety regulations in his classroom.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. read the article
The entire faculty was asked to address the issue. it seems that he just addressed the wrong part of the issue.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. The administration should had provided guidance on do's and don'ts
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BluePatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. W/o context I tend to agree
Edited on Mon Apr-23-07 04:18 PM by BluePatriot
Maybe that would have been appropriate for a HS teacher, but, college is college. Unless, he was disliked for other reasons and this convenient excuse came along.

note: my senior advisor was famous for waving her bullhorn at pro-choice rallies. I had plenty of teachers with plenty of opinions. Even inappropriate teachers and the resulting debates in class made the experience richer and I don't want colleges to turn into what HS turned into after Columbine.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Do you use Republican talking points much?
You do Savage and Boortz proud.

:puke:
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Rowdy Church Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Defending This Action?
Shock value aside ... my point was made.

Donnachaidh: Do you support the stifling of debate and Free Speech rights, in this case in the college/university level class room?

O, BTW, As an Out and Proud Gay man - I rarely, nO, MAKE that never, agree with Boortz or Savage on anything, fyi.






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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yes I DO defend this action
And that revolting comment you made is EXACTLY what Savage and Boortz have been saying. That sort of comment is an insult, whether you be straight or gay.

Two DAYS after the shooting this chucklehead points at someone and goes POW? That's just downright STUPID and insensitive.

Perhaps it has something to do with the hyper-masculinity problem we have here in the States? :sarcasm:

Especially when guns are involved.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SquireJons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. Political correctness aside...
Since when did we shelter university students from discussions about recent events? Call it what ever you want; I call it censorship. To those of you who say that this topic was out of the instructors jurisdiction, I say that you don't understand the difference between being taught how to think, verses what to think. It is vital that professors be able to bring what ever they think is relevant into classroom discussions. It's the very basis of tenure (which of course, this guy was not).
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Rowdy Church Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Nailed it
" ... the difference between being taught how to think, verses what to think..." - SquireJons


Nailed it !

Exactly. My point made with much more elegance and without being snarky.

Hell, I had High School teachers that would've engaged us in a frank open discussion about the incident and would've encouraged us to debate and think about the issue from all sides ... before forming an opinion. It taught me critical thinking which actually prepared me for my experience in university and where I was ready and able to tackle larger issues with literate minds.



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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
19. Whatever happened to free speech and inquiry?
I'm sure there's more to this story but still...

Whatever happened to free speech?

"Winset, 37, argued that the Catholic liberal arts school was stifling free discussion by firing him, and he said the move would have a "chilling effect" on open debate. He posted an 18-minute video on the online site YouTube defending his action.

The college issued a statement saying: "Emmanuel College has clear standards of classroom and campus conduct, and does not in any way condone the use of discriminatory or obscene language."

Student Junny Lee, 19, told The Boston Globe that most students didn't appear to find Winset's demonstration offensive."

Of course, he probably doesn't have tenure. Right-wingers and zealots don't like tenure.

It only takes one. I remember being ordered to take my 666 fish off of my monitor in my cubicle because one of the (many) christianists who were allowed to keep the emblems of their silliness complained.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
20. precisely nothing to do with free speech
I can just never fathom the muddle-headedness on this point.

The government was not telling him what he may or may not say, or punishing him (jailing, fining, executing him) for saying or not saying something.

His employer dismissed him because of something he said/did.

This is labour relations law.

Unfortunately, what he was dismissed for saying/doing isn't entirely clear. From the article:
-- An adjunct professor was fired after leading a classroom discussion about the Virginia Tech shootings in which he pointed a marker at some students and said "pow."

... The college issued a statement saying: "Emmanuel College has clear standards of classroom and campus conduct, and does not in any way condone the use of discriminatory or obscene language."
Well, I'm sure the college doesn't condone the beating of dogs, either.

A little clarification, from a source I'll trust to quote the college if nothing else:
Nicholas Winset said he was making a point that an armed student could have stopped the violence. But Emmanuel College quickly fired him, saying it prohibits "any behavior or action which makes light of or mimics the terrible tragedy at Virginia Tech. Emmanuel College has clear standards of classroom and campus conduct, and does not in any way condone the use of discriminatory or obscene language."

The school had refused to explain how Winset's actions fit any of those criteria — until moments ago — when it issued a statement saying Winset used an "obscene epithet" during what it called "outrageous and disrespectful behavior."
Still not too clear, but it just doesn't seem to be what some have understood it to be.





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Rowdy Church Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. Looks Like DU Unable to Cope
I joined DU because I enjoy a good debate - especially on current topics and most especially because I *usually* find that democrats are not close minded thinkers - not to mention that I am one.

I find it especially troubling, and yet interesting that I chose to interject on this topic - using a play on words - used by some on the neocon side of most issues.

But removing my posts because I used the same phraseology, as those neocons, strikes me that DU may not be the place that encourages critically thinking after all and is especially humorous and disturbing on this thread - when the topic is specifically dealing with a professor, who was removed, because he apparently also used *shock value* to drive home a point.

I elaborated on my thought - which as I pointed out was used a shock value - emphasizing and paralleling a point using the phrase used by neocons but ultimately elaborating that the concept may not be as far fetched as we'd like and too close for comfort in some cases.

But I found another of my posts removed the other day because I had the audacity in another thread to interject on the subject of roman catholicism's recent pronouncement (re: limbo) -- my post didn't use profanity - but merely espoused my secular humanist viewpoint, which apparently offended some xtian censor here on DU.

Critical thinking indeed.




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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. oh grow up
You may get alerted on and a moderator may decide to delete your post. Oh well, such is the price you may have to pay for trying to be provocative. Being a moderator is like being a ref: everything you do or don't do pisses people off.

If you are posting 'in the style' of some despised viewpoint, and you do not make it obvious that you are doing so, there is a fair risk that somebody won't get it, will take offense and will alert on your post. The moderator may not get it either. Perhaps the moderator made an error, then again it is hard for your readers to judge this as your posts are deleted.

If you wish to avoid such misinterpretations, the longstanding tradition on the internets is to used the ridiculous emoticons to make your intentions more obvious.

This board does encourage critical thinking and demands a reasonable level of civility. There are hardly any topics that are out of bounds, although some are consigned to various dungeons.

If you are annoyed at thin-skinned alerters and quick-shooting moderators, perhaps you might try being a bit less thin-skinned yourself?
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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
23. I find myself between the proverbial
rock and a hard place on this. First, I don’t know the entire story, so take this as a caveat. Second, this is a damn long post, so . . .

Okay, I teach college literature and I sometimes use what some would consider fairly controversial techniques. For example, recently I was teaching Antigone and my students just were not getting what it was Antigone had done, in context of the Greek culture, or the implications of her act in context of our own. It is a highly charged tragedy that has a fairly relevant theme: laws of the state vs. laws of the Gods ( for many of us, individual conscience). Well, long story short, as we discussed the text and some students brought up the current conditions in our culture and saw Bush as Creon, I more or less - okay directly, suggested - it was about time some one popped him. Now I said it in such a way that it would A) be clear it was not intended as a serious course of action and B) technically would be in violation of the law ( and I honestly hope this post is not in violation of the law). I also had a student from out of state in class who ( ahead of time, I have to admit, and yes I covered the student‘s ass in all events) I had prepped in the event that the issue came up who would sort of mildly cheerlead the idea ( without, of course, directly agreeing). So I suggest it, nervous chuckles ensue, student cheerleads, all think it’s a joke and we goof on the idea. Class goes on - I am back to noumena vs. kerygmata blah blah Pericles blah - and 15 minutes later, I bring it up again, and tell them that - legally - we can all be busted. We had collectively committed an act of treason ( thank God for the crossing state lines and old conspiracy laws). My students, as the phrase goes, almost shit. I end with a disclaimer to the effect that “all opinions expressed in this class are simply illustrative and yaddah yaddah yadda.” Students breathe collective sigh of relief. Students get picture. I worry about my Dean breaking my chops. Now I worry about this post, Still, good class. Okay. That is by way of where I am coming from. Generally, I am a first amendment fanatic.

More recently, I have been teaching Dante, and in trying to explain how the levels of Dante’s hell work ( it is the intention, not the act, per se that decides - to quote Chubby Checker -“how low you can go“) I have often used Warren Zevon to illustrate: Excitable Boy ( a sin of incontinence), Boom Boom Mancini ( a sin of violence and emotion), Send Lawyers Guns and Money ( a sin of conscious malice and fraud). Upshot is, someone kills someone else.

This time, as a result of the tragedy at Virginia Tech , I simply could not use Excitable Boy ( or the other two as a result, so I had to figure out another hook). It was not an issue of being sensitive to students’ needs. That is not, really, my job. However, I knew where it would go, and it would lead to me not teaching Dante - my job at that moment - but to discussing a whole host of other unrelated issues - unrelated to Dante. Possibly those other issues are more important and relevant - in fact, they probably are - but then I don’t need to get there by way of Warren Zevon, nor do I need a controversial hook. I can just bring up the issue. (Incidentally, one of my students was at a funeral for one of the victims so this is more than simply an academic consideration for me).

The issue, I think, is one’s agenda. Why is that teaching technique being used? Was the professor trying to help his students to look at things from a different perspective? Was he challenging them or was he indoctrinating them? Was it an open discussion about how we deal with these issues? That would seem to be the key issue for me. That can’t always be decided immediately. Now, within that framework, it might be (probably was) a miserable technique. But that is an issue of is he a competent or a lousy teacher. It might be that given the immediacy of that event, there was no need to bring it up at that moment in that way. It could be that guidelines regarding how it was to be brought up in classes involving material not related to that event ( psychology, criminal justice, clearly related - accounting, computer programming, agriculture clearly not related- all else pretty much up for grabs).

I do feel, though, that a possibly - and I don't know - poor choice of teaching methods led to an administrative reaction that is, to say the least, far worse and far more chilling. My motto is, when in doubt, side with the First amendment and intellectual freedom. Next class I start Hamlet, and with all of the talk of The Great Chain of Being and the Four Humors, it would seem that Virginia Tech might be relevant. I mean we have a disturbed loner - melancholic is the term - who causes the deaths of quite a number of individuals - I just hope I have the nerve to bring it up, should it be academically appropriate.

As a college teacher, I would support his right to do what he did if it was in the best interests of his students. Were I, say, on a rank and tenure committee, and this were part of a pattern of poor techniques, IMHO, he would be gone. Were it an aberration in his methods, or even a sound method, he or she would get my vote. Regardless of whether I think that the position about arming students is right or wrong ( I don't need to say that I thinks it is out to lunch), I think that - at least from the limited knowledge I have, the administration screwed up.

Sorry for the long post, but this whole issue is something I have been thinking about constantly of late.
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booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
24. Prof tells his side of the story at YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-cBKXyRvyM&mode=related&search=

It's in 4 parts.

Not endorsing it one way or the other, but I thought it was interesting to at least hear his side.

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