Audio of Craig arrest reveals new details

[sabra]

Source: AP

Spokesman denies three-term Idaho lawmaker preparing to quit

WASHINGTON - Sen. Larry Craig denied soliciting an undercover police officer shortly after being arrested for alleged lewd conduct in a bathroom at a Minneapolis airport, an audio recording of the arrest revealed.

Craig said on the recording, released Thursday by the Minneapolis Police Department, that he may have touched the officer's foot with his foot while they were in stalls. "You said our feet bumped; I believe they did," Craig said, adding that he was scooting over. "Next thing I knew, underneath the bathroom divider comes a card that says 'Police.'"

The Republican senator from Idaho also said he placed his hand underneath the stall to pick up a paper, not to solicit the officer.

'I'm not gay," Craig said. "I don't seek activity in bathrooms."

The officer said he was disappointed in the senator.

"You are sitting here lying to a police officer," the officer responded. "People vote for you. Unbelievable."

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20467347/

[LiberalFighter]

1. Unbelievable

[karash]

4. .

Let's not go too incredibly far off our rockers here. As much as I dislike Larry Craig, remember that we are getting all our reports about what happened from the corporate media. Iraq? Hello? Why do we want to believe their details so badly when they are reporting against a Republican?

I tend to be more suspicious of some pitiful, repressed police officer trying to entrap men into homosexual activity in a public bathroom. What a wretched waste of time and money, to have a crack team of our American police officers hitting on men in public in an attempt to fine them for trying to hook up. Sick, sick bastards.

[saracat]

8. The police are "sick ,sick bastards" ? Sorry but this was an officer just doing his job.

In case you didn't know sex in public isn't legal, gay or otherwise. Jeez.This was a "known" hangout for those who engage in such activities.Would you want a child to wander in there and observe those activities? Craig knew exactly what he was doing .That is why he admitted it.And this is not his first time.And you wanna blame the Cop? Unbelievable.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

18. Wow.You sure overeact in defense of Craig.I am sure you don't have kids that would use such a

bathroom. Sorry but the cop had a "reason" to be there and even the late night comedians "get it'. This was NOT an accident and the cop knew what he was doing.It is ridiculous to claim the cop should have to have "sex' with craig for it to be a valid arrest.So you think undercover cops should have sex with prostitues too before they arrest them? And you seriously believe it is even possible that Craig, whom many have known about for years was only picking up a nonexistant paper from the floor of a men's room?
The cops have much better things to do than frame people like Craig.Your real contention is that even if Craig wwere guilty that it is not a big deal and most would disagree.You are the one that has a real problem. I find your calling the cop "sick" and a "pervert " very offensive.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

43. Well, I have turned in heterosexual people for having sex in a public bathroom

so I don't see this as a Gay issue or a vendetta aginst gays. The restroom are "public" even if the stall door is closed. And Gay guys were not just "meeting' in that bathroom. No one would give a rats ass if that is all this was.
And as for the "foot tapping" and "signals' only someone who didn't know anything about the gay community could think that these were not signals.Have you ever read the history of the so called "tearooms" My gay friends have told me stories about these kind of bathroom encounters for years.They would even tell me what the signals were.Sheesh.
No doubt you are a defender of George Micheal when he got busted too! He argued that this is just part of gay culture and ought to be accepted. But hey, I guess I must be "repressed " as I don't care to see or hear, as you mentioned the door might be closed ,people "screwing in public" and think it is a great idea to stop them before they actually do so.Silly me.But then I don't like people peeing in the street either!

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

60. You know, if you are so concerned with this I would think you might

consider it a very good thing that this incident happened to Larry Craig, who out of all the Senate was the most concerned with making sure no one had any rights!Perhaps this may cause him to change his point of view.Craig has absolutely NO problem with an innocent person being convicted.Is it different when it is himself? Not that I think he is innocent, but why shouldn't he be leading the charge against these police officers who "entrap " people?Yet there is nary a peep out of him on that issue.It is only his particular case that matters to him.With Craig out of the Senate more people will have a better chance of being protected.One can look at this , if one believes Craig, and most don't, that THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS!I will be pleased to be rid of Craig.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

33. don't let him get to you, there were people defending Mark Foley too,

The problem is some groups feel an obligation to unconditional solidarity, no matter how inappropriate the conduct of the accused, the NAACP defending Michael Vick for instance.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

42. yes fucking in a public washroom is incredibly inappropriate

I don't care if somebody is fucking the travelocity garden gnome in the privacy of their home, but I have a sneaking suspiscion that if I was hanging around in a womens washroom looking for sex, I would be arrested too.

Would that be heterophobia? No that would be the police arresting a pervert hanging around in a public washroom.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. Let me guess.

You're a republican, and you can't handle the fact that the people you vote for are hypocritical freaks.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. Craig was arrested for a number of things.

Including staring in at unsuspecting people as they used the toilet through the gaps between the door of the stall. For several minutes.

Maybe you should have read the arrest report first.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. So Craig wasn't staring through the doors?

Or are you saying there's nothing wrong with staring through the doors?

"IF Craig was staring at people through the cracks, he should have been arrested for that, not for "top secret homosexual communication.""

Uh, Craig was arrested for it. It's right there in the arrest report, Silly.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. The cop was flirting with Craig first?

The cop was there to catch luggage thieves. Craig initiated teh whole thing.

[CreekDog]

99. Probably to establish a motive for staring through the doors

Without it, the staring could have been explained away by saying that peering through the door was simply to see if it was occupied.

I don't think this was a travesty of justice. I don't have a problem with people meeting and then going somewhere private to do the deed, but that it was typically done in these bathrooms is a real problem. And gross too.

The bathroom? Ick, not exactly an aphrodesiac.

[CreekDog]

95. Where did that come from?

Really, really presumptuous.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

61. if you guys want to make a date at the urinal and get a motel room, fine.

but I don't think that is what the distinguished republican senator from Idaho had in mind. People fucking in a public washroom in an airport used by all walks of life - including children is not appropriate. That isn't dark ages - that is a basic expectation of adult behavior.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. No he was arrested and convicted of disorderly conduct.

He was trying to have sex with an undercover cop.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. There's no "if" he confessed.

"Regardless, throwing him in the pillory for the foot-tapping and stall-rubbing is bullshit."

You don't think a misdeamenor sentence of "disorderly conduct" for being a peeping tom is justified?

Why not?

"invading the private sexual feelings of whoever makes the mistake of the week."

Private? Invading? If anybody was invading it was Craig, and it certainly wasn't private.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

92. Some people take harassment seriously.

I guess if you're the sort of person who harasses people you don't get to upset about peeping toms in public restrooms.

"If that was truly the arrestable offense, why did the officer need to go play footsie with him before showing the badge?"

It was what he was arrested for. It's right there in the police report. Why wasn't it the only thing he was arrested for? Probably for the same reason street walkers aren't arrested for jay walking. If the cop's engaged with the perp, the cop may as well see what the perp is planning on doing.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

77. the police don't need to wait till the hookers head is in your lap either.

Officer I didn't have sex with the prostitute, yes, I was driving at 5mph on the hooker stroll, and yes I asked multiple women how much they charged for their services, and yes I gave this young lady beside me money - but we haven't had sex.

Try that one on the judge,

Do you think an undercover cop busting johns is going to fuck them before arresting them?

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

94. no it reflects that DU is a community of mature well adjusted people

who have values that reflect a base level of public behavior that does not include sex in public washrooms many members of DU probably also object to public urination, vandalism and dwarf tossing.

[Ghost in the Machine]

126. Try this on them..

"Officer I didn't have sex with the prostitute, yes, I was driving at 5mph on the hooker stroll, and yes I asked multiple women how much they charged for their services, and yes I gave this young lady beside me money - but we haven't had sex.{emphasis mine}

Ok, in this scenario, the crime has already been committed by the guy offering money for sex. That's why they can bust the john, he conspired to commit a crime... paying for sex.

Now, I can walk up to a prostitute, talk to her for an hour if I want (and she listens), even talk about sex and how I'd like to do her, but as long as I don't ask "how much would that cost me" or anything in any manner of offering money, there's not a damned thing anyone can do about it.

Now let's take it to the next level~~~~>>> If I did this, and it was a real hooker, she'd tell me to buzz off within the first 10 minutes because I was interfering with her making money. Maybe an undercover cop would stand there and listen for an hour, or she just might tell me to buzz off too, right??

Now picture this: I walk up to a woman, thinking she's a hooker, and ask "how much?"... and it turns out she isn't a hooker, just someone dressed like Britney Spears or Paris Hilton or something. What does she do? She says "fuck off asshole!", or something like that, right? Ok, I may have committed a crime by asking "how much?", but if the woman just tells me to fuck off and walks away and doesn't report it, I'm not getting arrested, right?

Now we're getting to the meat of the matter. Had the undercover officer been just a regular guy in a stall, and saw someone peering in at him, his normal reaction would be to say something, even if it was just "hey, I'm in here" or "occupied!" or something, to make the guy go away. However, he didn't do this, which encouraged Senator Craig to go further.

I realize a law was broken right then, and I understand about seeing how far the perp would go, but usually once a john mentions money, that's the signal to move in and arrest. They have a clear intent of breaking the law. The undercover prostitute doesn't encourage the john any farther.

(This started out about a question on legal issues, but in typing it out I answered my own question. I'm just posting it so I didn't waste all this time typing! LOL!)

edited: for bad html.. D'OH!

[TreasonousBastard]

19. Good luck! I got a whole thread going saying...

pretty much the same thing.

And over a hundred posts calling me some kind of asshole. As flaky as this whole bust is, we're still supposed to crucify this guy.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TreasonousBastard]

25. Have fun...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1691835

[uppityperson]

20. It is because of the Children.

No children in busy singles bars, whether gay/hetero/whatever. But they might be there in a restroom in an airport, see? Think of the children.


While I disagree with your repressed homosexual hysteria rant, the evidence is just not enough for me. It seems an over reaction to minor "secret code" stuff. Yes, I'd prefer people not be arrested until they make overt statement (sort of like prostitutes need to be exact to get busted). He pled guilty to being a public nuisance (whatever the technical term is), not to sexual solicitation.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

34. Try the subject line thing again. And you do realize that this was the officer's job?

I disagree with your assessment of a police officer doing his job as being a severely repressed homosexual.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

44. PUBLIC WASHROOM

The police didn't break down the door of a guys house and charge him with sodomy,

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. He tried to engage in sodomy.

And he admitted as much.

[Karenina]

72. AND LEAVE SARACAT OUT OF IT.

Whaddya think, Bah? What do Craig's actions have to do with Saracat???
:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. Obviously, Saracat's a vicious homophobe...

and preying on poor innocent sexual predators like Larry Craig.

[Zenlitened]

83. Seriously, Karash, snarking on Saracat over and over and over and over....

... is really just lame. How 'bout you give it a rest now, huh?

[dbackjon]

109. No doubt

Did you register on DU just for this topic? Half of your posts on like this. TROLL!

[Zenlitened]

111. Me? Or did you mean to reply to the now-tombstoned poster?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

64. and if I am driving slowly in an area frequented by prostitutes - the police might take an interest

certain behaviors communicate an intent, a vice officer would have a certain knowledge of gestures communicating a certain intent.

[karash]

91. .

That's scary police-state stuff. Why are we so comfortable with this? Why am I surprised to find it here on DU, too?

More and more posts disappearing. Soon, will I have vanished all the way down the memory hole?

Lord of the Flies, people. Homosexuals don't hurt anyone. Siiigh.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

Observing suspicious behavior is police state stuff?

What country do you live in?

[Zenlitened]

101. "Soon, will I have vanished all the way down the memory hole? "

More and more posts disappearing. Soon, will I have vanished all the way down the memory hole?

I sure hope so. :hi:

[Zenlitened]

102. .

[saracat]

103. Thank God he is gone ! Thank you everyone!

[POAS]

139. Public indecency

can and does hurt children.

Soliciting and peeping into bathroom stalls does hurt others, whether by gays or straights.

siiiiiigh.

[roguevalley]

161. there are some behaviors that don't deserve defense. and craig

convicted himself of this. he has a HISTORY of this. For godsakes. A history. CHeck him out and save your bile for someone who might deserve defense. this whole 'the cop is always wrong no matter what' crap is crap.

[aquart]

24. If Craig were out, he could pick up men in bars.

Here in NYC, it happens all the time. Out gays even run for office and win, like my state senator, Tom Duane.

And, since 911, we don't go calling cops names without evidence. You don't have any except your prejudice.

That cop was doing his job and you are defending a criminal. Why is Craig a criminal? Because he insists that all these lewdness laws stay on the books. He just didn't think the law should apply to him.

[DrDan]

27. then why did he plead guilty?

If everything was as innocent as you suggest, why would he plead guilty?

With that guilty plea, seems to me the officers conduct has been validated.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrDan]

46. that is just too much of a stretch

I find it hard to believe anyone, let alone a US Senator would enter a guilty plea and pay a $1500 fine when he was not guilty. It just does not pass the smell test.

and of course, he kept the whole thing secret from his wife and family . . .

I put myself in this situation - unjustly accused of a wrongful charge. I would first never plead guilty - even to a lesser charge. And if I ever found myself having done so, I would make sure my wife was aware of the situation. She would someday find out.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. So you're saying Craig didn't do it?

You're instead saying that Craig lied under oath when he confessed to doing it?

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

97. So you think being a peeping tom should be legalized?

Call your local republican congressman. Maybe they'll be interested.

[DrDan]

81. well . . . I have no problem with anybody trying to hook up in private

not my business.

But seems to me that any type of sexual activity in public should be dealt with through legal means. Seems I heard they made 40-some arrests at this airport over the recent past - I don't remember what the period it was. I support their cleaning up this type activity. And I don't have a problem with the means they are using. This was not a one-time, unique event.

It is just too much of a coincidence to believe anything but that he was trying to make contact with an anonymous sexual partner. He is a US Senator - for heavens sakes - he should understand better than most the risks involved.

For no other reason than absolutely horrible judgement he should leave the senate. Anything more - he should absolutely lose his office. He exhibited extremely bad judgement - he has no right to vote on anthing to do with national interests.

As for the cop - you portray him as a guy who singularly decided to learn about this counter-culture and take matters into his own hands to persecute homosexuals. I find that hard to believe.

[roguevalley]

162. the only ones who deserve pity are his family.

[DrDan]

176. absolutely . . . I feel sorry for what his wife, children and grandchildren

are going to have to face because of his "needs". His wife in particular as her health may have been put in jeopardy many many times in the past couple of decades.

Can you imagine - decades of bathroom hook-ups?????? How can she sleep knowing that. Of course, she must be in denial.

[IsItJustMe]

122. I agree with most of what you say karash. After reading your posts, most of which are deleted now,

your points are well made. Everything, in my mind, that Craig did could be explained away. Circumstantial at best. The cop had no real evidence of any wrong doing that took place. It was a bull shit charge.

I have read the transcrips and I see no criminal intent. If we, in this coutry, can arrest people, on this kind of flimsy evidence, then we are in big trouble.

You have changed my mind from yesterday. Your logic is well reasoned and most of your critics are, in fact, using straw man arguments against it (Oh, what about the kids).

With that being said however, I am still glad that the hypocrite was outed. That is Craig's real crime, passing laws that demoralize gays and turning around and partaking in those activities himself.

If it would have been me sitting in the stall next to Craig, I would have simply told him to f*ck off and that would have been the end of it.

[Carni]

131. M.O.R.A.N. eom

[Rosa Luxemburg]

134. the GOP are very hurt obviously?

[POAS]

138. You forgot the part of the charge

about his peeping through the door at the officer and invading his privacy. That was the first indication the officer had that, whoever this person was, his intention was not about normal bathroom functions.

I'd echo what others have said, would you want someone peeping into a stall where your child was sitting?

[roguevalley]

160. msnbc had a guy on who works with guys who get into this situation,

I can't remember his name, and he said he's helped 1000's of guys. he said he could count on one hand the number of guys who were innocent. He said he felt Craig was lying. As for your vilifying the cop, there appears to be more to you than meets the eye. Were you in this situation? Just asking. If you feel the cop was anything but the decent guy he appears to be, lay it out.

[liberalnurse]

9. The republicans want

a republican Governor to appoint a new republican Senator so that the new Senator has time to garner "incumbent blessings" before 08. Thats what this is all about and why they are forcing the issue to have Craig resign. Heck, Governor Otter may appoint himself!

Craig had "nasty" baggage that was going to come out during the 08 re-election is my guess. This makes thing go much faster. I wouldn't be surprised if I heard the GOP set him up in the first place.

[peacetalksforall]

13. If your running an airport terminal for the public using taxpayer

money and you find out that one of your (responsibilities) bathrooms on a specific concourse at your airport is where homosexuals know to come to score (in front of or virtually, within feet of) the public and children AND it is against the law??????? - why is that sick wasted time?

Does someone have to do it or not? If not, then you think the law should be ignored?

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peacetalksforall]

104. So if this cop was acting according to the law as written, your gripe

is with the law? And what is needed is a look at the law? If yes, I misunderstood you. I thought you were angry with the cop.

I think I had the same 'converstion' two days ago on DU and it came to the same thing.

Upset about the law as written.

I can't argue for or against the law - don't know how it reads ... not a lawyer.

[Warpy]

21. 'Scuse me? There had been complaints about activity in that

particular restroom. They sent an undercover cop to check it out.

Apparently the cop entered the restroom and noticed he was being stared at through a stall door. He entered the next stall and sat down, and then the signaling (which by the way is reasonably well known among the closet set) began.

They're going to have one hell of a time proving entrapment on this one. It seems ole sanctimonious Craig was sitting there, just like a spider, waiting for a baby faced fly.

Seriously, how would you feel if you went into the loo and some guy in the next stall started playing footsie? Creeped out is my guess.

So, the complaints.

I suggest you might want to refer to the arresting officer's report. It's online. The cops aren't always in the wrong, you know.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kestrel91316]

50. The cop wasn't the one "picking up". Show me where the cop

initiated signals. Even Craig has not claimed this.

(crickets chirping)

Craig is the one who peeped, signaled, and solicited. In public. in a place frequented by children.

Are you rushing to his defense perhaps because you have done the same and think it's fine and dandy?

[CabalPowered]

75. You missed the point

There were repeated reports to the Airport police of lewd behavior in that particular bathroom. Even so much that online communities had taken notice.

"....org is a site that runs a bulletin board for such men. "If you enter from the terminal, turn left and go past wash basins, urinals to the back where the stalls are. This place is THE most cruisy public place I have been," wrote one poster. "Just passed thru here the other day. This place is so hot. This place has a constant flow and variety of hot guys," wrote another. Even another poster wrote, "This is the best spot for anonymous action I've ever seen." Of all the postings in Minnesota, the airport restroom was ranked the top by that website."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/08/28/sneak-peek-inside-bathroo_n_62091.html

"Read about this hot spot today and stopped by after getting off my flight. I walked around the corner and"

http://sparklepony.blogspot.com/2007/08/i-guess-larry-craigs-favorite-airport.html

Would argue that the Airport police disregard such reports? What if had not been lewd behavior? What if it was a favorite among heroin users that were using it to inject themselves or to buy and sell?

[Warpy]

105. It was still initiated by Craig

End of story.

[DrDan]

22. well . . . I hesitate to disagree . . . but

I think there are better ways to try to find a sexual partner than in public bathroom . . .

and I have no problem with the police attempting to control this . . . .

entrapment? Probably not. I am sure that has been argued hundreds of times . . . and unsuccessfully.

And why do you think the police officer is repressed? Any real reason for your thinking here? Just because it is his job?

flame away . . .

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Why do we want to believe their details so badly?

Because they're Republicans?

Uh, yeah!

I doubt that brand X kills any brain cells worrying about giving the devil his due, or waiting until all the facts are in, or seeing both sides, or withholding judgment. Therefore, neither should we. We should buy tar by the truckload and feathers by the bushel.

[kestrel91316]

45. Larry's the one who did the "hitting". Can't you read?

[lynnertic]

129. I hate public restrooms to begin with. and the smell...

it makes me wonder who the policeman ticked off, to get that duty.

[RagingInMiami]

156. He pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct

this means he basically admitted to everything that was said about him.

[ehrnst]

158. "Dislike" Larry Craig?

You sound like the anti-choicers on pro-choice debate boards that start out, "As much as I think getting lots of abortions is a-ok, I have to wonder if these women aren't a little irresponsible..."

[caledesi]

178. Before you call it "entrapment," find out exactly what ENTRAPMENT

means according to the law./ This was NOT entrapment.

[Ian David]

2. People don't vote for him. Republicans vote for him. There's a difference. n/t

[Beetwasher]

3. Memo To Craig: NO ONE BELIEVES YOU

You idiot. But keep it up anyway! It's pretty funny!

[AndyA]

5. I can think of a few other Republicons this statement applies to:

"You are sitting here lying to a police officer," the officer responded. "People vote for you. Unbelievable."

Like Bush, Cheney, Rice, etc.

Why is it again we aren't impeaching them?

[BadgerKid]

6. Reparsing: not gay *now*, but perhaps was so at the time

Afterall, being gay is a choice :sarcasm:

[olddad56]

14. the use of the term 'gay' in conjunction with this incident is an affront to gay people..

It implies that being gay is synonymous with soliciting male to male sex in public restrooms. While, I'm not gay (and never have been,ha), I have both gay and lesbian friends. Most of the people in the gay community that I do know are settled down in monogamous relationships and several have children. They are family people and part of the overall community. Their kids play little league baseball and soccer with my kid. None of these people are out trolling in public restrooms for, what I would consider, perverted sex. Maybe the people who are trolling are homosexuals who can't come out about it, maybe they are just perverts. They don't represent the gay people that I know.

[BadgerKid]

51. Agreed. The gays you mention

are simply people, too, pursuing life, liberty, and happiness. In my view, they probably have a much better understanding about life that the straight folk.

[Baby Snooks]

119. Maybe he was temporarily gay...

After all, Lisa Nowak was apparently temporarily mentally ill when she started stalking someone and was apparently temporarily insane when she decided to kidnap her victim in order to "talk" to her.

The rich and famous and powerful apparently are always temporarily this or that when they get caught red-handed doing something illegal and the senator should have pulled that card instead of his senator's card when he was caught red-handed with his hand under the stall in an airport bathroom.

Methinks the senator doth protest too much. And far too late.

[karash]

7. .

Why do we even give a god d*mn about this at all? Craig can be a repressed homosexual without being a hypocrite. It is possible to be homosexual and not support gay marriage or hate-crimes legislation.

I hope society looks back on these inane homosexual witch hunts with the same utter disgust that I view them now.

Really, doesn't it strike anyone else as ridiculous that we are using our tax dollars to pay an army of uniformed perverts to play "mission impossible" in bathrooms in order to punish people interested in homosexual sex? This is thoughtcrime, and we should be mad as hell about it whether or not the person entrapped was a Republican or a Democrat.

A $500 fine for expressing interest in sex with a man? How much does it cost to express interest in a woman? Why do we have to criminalize natural, healthy, biological behavior? What in the holy f*ck is wrong with this species?

[saracat]

11. Why do you never title your responses? It is very annoying!

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carni]

133. Freeper=YOU

Just saying...lol

[olddad56]

26. just to annoy you.

[karlrschneider]

38. So how many usernames do you have here?

:wtf:

[karlrschneider]

12. The thing is, THIS PARTICULAR person has the legislative power to

criminalize this behavior. And has USED that power to do so.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[karlrschneider]

35. I don't know where you're coming from but I'm not interested in hearing any more.

Don't bother to reply, I won't see it.

[uppityperson]

37. That isn't how you write a subject line.

[rodeodance]

28. I do not want my daughter approached in the bathroom by a man or women who is

interested in sex. simple as that.

[saracat]

48. Thank you.Right on point!

[Orangepeel]

127. he COULD be a repressed homosexual without being a hypocrite

but he's not.

[Carni]

132. Public bathrooms at airports are not intended for sex

Ever hear the expression; get a fucking room?

It isn't a witch hunt--gay, straight, or otherwise, have sex somewhere else...

And it isn't *because of the children* it's because I don't want to use the toilet after some asshole has spread germs on it or has created an embarrassing drama FOR ME -- by having sex in a PUBLIC RESTROOM when I might feel the need to use it.

The last thing I need in an airport, is to deal with all that particular drama in the bathroom...you don't fly much do you?

[gorekerrydreamticket]

144. Bingo!

Public toilet facilities are often crowded enough without people taking them up for other things besides the obvious intended use. Most every airport I have been in recently had a bar. What better place do you need for arranging a hookup, either gay or straight?

[ehrnst]

157. The Terminology you use is very interesting...

soliciting sex in a public restroom where there might be children present is hardly interchangable with "Expressing interest in sex with a man...."

Thoughtcrime?? That's a stretch - almost sounds like someone pretending to be a hip liberal.

Why do we even give a god d*mn about this at all? Because this man uses his public office to criminalize and marginalize healthy homosexual behavior like marriage. So it's his HYPOCRISY that's at issue, and if you had read any of the posts in this thread, that should be very clear to you....

How much does it cost to express interest in a woman? If you do it in a place where prostitution is practiced, and you do it in the same way that johns do, then it costs you pretty much what it cost Craig.

[roguevalley]

163. normal behavior ... hid his proclivities and lied about them, voted

against everything that might make those of his persuasion live a decent happy life, is a complete dick soliciting in public, risked a disease that he could have given his wife and every other partner he has. yes, he's a normal man doing normal things. the bastard. your idea of normal and mine are quite different.

[shifting_sands]

36. Really

So some people believe it to be a "waste of time" having police officers trolling these rest rooms to catch predators? Really. Well maybe you don't have young boys who at six or seven don't really want to go into the woman's rest rooms with "mom" and so you send them to a public rest room and stand out side glaring at every man who goes in, trying to make sure your sons are safe. You haven't had to explain some of the disgusting things that were happening in those restrooms. Sorry, I think it's a perfect place for police officers. The "boys will be boys" defense is getting beyond old especially for men who want to be taken seriously as leaders.

[MarkInLA]

49. How typical

You're equating gays with child molesters. Gee, thanks for reinforcing the stereotypes.

[saracat]

53. She was not "equating gays ' with child molestors! " All kinds of people frequnt

airport bathrooms. Among them are gays, straights and predators who may also be child molestors.No mother I know lets her young son go to public restrooms alone anymore.Seriously. Most don't let little girls go to the bathroom alone either.It is that bad.This has nothing to do with gay folks.But if either a gay or straight person is engaging or attempting to engage in lewed behavior even with consenting adults, in public, they are going to be arrested.

[MarkInLA]

56. Sounds like entrapment to me

After listening to the audio recording, I think the police are wasting their time with sting operations like this. They should focus on bigger problems.

I disagree with most of Larry Craig's politics, but his behavior didn't sound like something that should be illegal. It's rude and tacky, but it shouldn't be illegal to tap your foot in a bathroom stall, or to move it in the direction of the stall next to you.

It's amazing how most Americans say they believe in freedom and civil liberties, but when there's something that they find offensive (especially if it has to do with sex), the response is, "Make it illegal! Lock 'em up!"

Let the old man go.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. O RLY?

So if a grown man were peeping at your kid while your kid was using the bathroom, you don't think that should be illegal?

[MarkInLA]

78. That's not what happened in this situation

Try to focus on the topic.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. Yes, it is.

Craig was staring at people through the gaps between the stall and the door.

Try reading the police report.

[MarkInLA]

90. Okay, I'll answer your question...

...even though it's somewhat off-topic.

It would bother me if someone was staring at a child through the crack of a bathroom stall door, but I don't think it should be illegal.

Since you think it should be illegal, do you think it should be a misdemeanor or a felony?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

98. You don't think being a peeping tom should be illegal?

My goodness. Do all republicans think that way? I mean I know Larry Craig does...

[MarkInLA]

106. In a private place, yes, in a public bathroom, no (n/t)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

108. Well that's what we're talking about.

[LanternWaste]

150. His analogy stands as valid--

His analogy stands as valid-- there are no direct, relevant, or precise technical difference between the two scenarios...

[Vinca]

88. That's the point, not which team Craig is on. If people are having

sex in public restrooms - especially restrooms apt to be used by kids - it's not ok. My biggest surprise out of the tape is how NOT upset and surprised Craig seems to be. Add to that the weeks he was given to ponder his verdict and consult legal counsel. If he was truly innocent, he would have been in court with his attorney claiming entrapment and screaming his innocence. And for the life of me I can't imagine stretching to the point of tapping a stranger's foot in the next stall by mistake or picking up a square of toilet paper on a public restroom floor.

[goodhue]

93. not at all like entrapment

In jurisprudence, entrapment is a legal defense by which a defendant may argue that he or she should not be held criminally liable for actions which broke the law, because he/she was induced (or entrapped) by the police to commit those acts. For the defense to be successful, the defendant must demonstrate that the police induced an otherwise unwilling person to commit a crime.

What did Craig do that he would have been otherwise unwilling to do? Pick up toilet paper?

[roguevalley]

164. bwahahaha! post this again when you get more than 18 in your

tally. go back to freeperland and tell them the same thing. see how long you last there. :)

[TexasBushwhacker]

80. For those screaming "entrapment" ....

let's not forget, he DID plead guilty to a lesser charge.

BTW, if an undercover cop flashed a card that said POLICE in a men's room, would your first response be 'I'm not gay. I don't seek activity in bathrooms."? I mean jeez, HE DIDN'T EVEN FLUSH :puke:

[roguevalley]

165. he also never denied he did what the cop said in all the most

salient points.

[depakid]

100. "People vote for you. Unbelievable."

The same applies to anyone who still associates with today's corrupt, irrational and inept Republican party.

[The Donkey]

107. Let's Investigate This Landmark Case To Death, Shall We?

Is he innocent? Is he guilty? Is the cop a sicko, or is he just doing his job? Let's look at the facts of the case that both parties have agreed upon and draw some conclusions, shall we?

I'll ignore the peeping tom part for now and focus on the actual stall behavior to look at this difficult logistical issue. Hopefully we can settle the debate here and now.

In reading this thread several logistical questions have come up for me about this whole affair that I’d like to pose, based on the assumption that Craig’s explanation of the whole affair is valid. Maybe some of you could help me out with a few plausible answers:

First, let’s assume that instead of tapping his foot in his own stall, then moving it into the adjacent stall to solicit sex from an undercover police officer, Craig explained that he simply uses a “wide stance” whenever he drops a bowel bomb. I’ve never been a fan of this technique, but hey - to each his own. Being a United States Senator, I’m assuming that Craig usually has the luxury of a large, plush, roomy bathroom that has allowed him to develop this special squat. However, when you’re in an airport bathroom, common decorum dictates that you keep YOUR GODDAMMED FEET IN YOUR OWN STALL! I do a fair amount of air traveling, and I’ve had to use airport bathrooms dozens of times in the last few years. It’s difficult enough to get your business done amid the waterfall-like sounds of other people doing their thing, not to mention the stale yet acrid boquet of old beer farts and partially dissolved urinal cakes. Even those with a minimum of awareness must know that when in a place like this, you don’t even make eye contact, much less start flailing body parts around in other people’s stalls while they're preoccupied with more pressing matters.

All’s I’m saying is – if I’m in mid-stream and you jam your foot into my stall – I’m whizzing all over it out of spite. Take that, stall invader! Think about the salty wet sock you’ll be wearing all day the next time you feel the need to impose your special wide pooping technique when you fly with me, chief. I make no apologies on this one - that’s just the way I roll, baby.

Moving on - in response to the police report that said Senator Craig also “swipe(d) his hand under the stall divider for a few seconds, swiping from the front of the stall towards the back wall, which was done with the Defendant’s hand palm-up and guiding it along the stall divider”. The report said that Craig did this three times. Craig’s defense? He had dropped a piece of paper and was attempting to pick it up. The arresting officer made it clear that there was no paper on the floor.

Let’s assume that he really was reading a single piece of paper while doing his business. I’m guessing it was a pamphlet offering emergency instructions on how to treat the inevitable perforated bowel cavity he was suffering as a result giving birth to the special big brown baby boy that his "wide stance" created. Maybe, during a particularly painful contraction, he lost grip on his pamphlet and it flew up into the air like a newly freed bird, swaying back and forth feather-like as it descended until it swooped awkwardly into the stall next to him. These kinds of things happen to us all everyday, right? Although he was panicking, the poor Senator could not leave his seat because he had just hit the point of no return and things had finally started to move, which forced him to stay seated. He frantically tapped his foot in an attempt to catch the embarrassing paper before it glided into the next stall. Not knowing that the laws of physics had been magically suspended and that the paper had disintegrated into anti-matter upon leaving his stall, the Senator reached under the partition in an attempt to retrieve the evidence of his special condition before it could be discovered. In his haste, he reached in palms-up, negating any chance he had of picking anything up off of the floor. Hey, maybe he’s not the best multi-tasker.

Assuming that this is exactly how things happened, here’s my question – if I’m in a public restroom, and I drop a piece of paper on the floor, am I really going to pick it up? I’ve never been in a public women’s restroom, but trust me ladies when I say that some men create messes in our public restrooms that make little annoyances like “leaving the seat up” seem like a blessing from God. If an upright seat is the greatest hardship a guy finds upon entering an empty stall, we feel like we've just won the scatalogical lottery. Please allow me to elaborate for you - remember the famous scene from the movie “Scanners”, where the guy’s head explodes all over the place? It’s kinda like that in our public restrooms, except here the guy’s ass exploded instead of his head. Let’s put it another way: if I were traveling abroad and dropped my passport on the airport bathroom floor, I would rather seek asylum from my host country than live out the remainder of my shortened life as a buffet for the flesh-eating bacteria that I would now host as a result of retrieving such an important document.

I know what you’re saying – how can any man (even a straight one) control the urges of love that always seem to take over in an environment as romantic as this? It is tough, I must admit. But it will take a far more dedicated sociologist than me to find the answer to this age-old question.

Which takes me to my final observation – why did Senator Craig insist that during his press conference “Let me be clear – I am not gay. I never have been gay. I love my wife.”?

First of all, he wasn’t arrested for being gay – as far as I know, being gay isn’t even against the law, except maybe for Utah and parts of Oklahoma. What he WAS ARRESTED AND PLED GUILTY TO was making blatant attempts to solicit sex from an undercover police officer in an airport bathroom. The speed at which the entire Republican Party distanced themselves from him adds credence to the decades-long rumors around the beltway that this guy has been attracted to men his whole life.

There could be other, less likely explanations. Perhaps he was so proud of what last night's dinner had become that he wanted the world to see it in all of its glory. Maybe he has a rare fear of flying that can only be treated by wearing someone else's balls as eyebrows. Hey, I'm no doctor - who am I to judge the merits of alternative medicine?

Maybe he wasn’t totally lying though. He did say “I am not gay” – maybe this experience has made the thought of rubbing the naughty bits of a stranger in a public bathroom slightly less alluring. Maybe he’s bisexual. That would explain the loving his wife part, although if I were a closet homosexual I’d have to publicly profess my love to anyone who I could trust to keep a secret I felt shame about for several decades.

Here’s part of his statement I find quite funny – when he said “I never have been gay”. That’s classic. He’s operating under the false assumption that most homophobes believe, that being gay is a choice. The way Senator Craig thinks, being gay is like having some sort of light switch that you can turn on and off at will. I’m sure that the untold hundreds of thousands of gay teens in this country will be elated to hear this fabulous news. I honestly doubt that in houses all across America, straight teens are thinking “Hmm – I like people of the opposite sex, but I also want to increase the number of beatings that I get from other kids – what to do? I know; I’ll turn on the ol’ gay switch!”

He now says he regrets having pled guilty. Pardon the pun, but for a gay guy I would have expected him to have better hindsight. I’ve never been arrested before, but even with my anemic knowledge of the legal system, I do know that I wouldn’t immediately admit to guilt for something I never did. Especially if I were a well-known politician. Even more especially if I was known as a leader of the homophobic movement who was accused of trying to knob-job a stranger in a smelly public toilet, where the pungent aroma of floaters clouded my stall.

Yes, he’s a hypocrite, yes, he’s been busted, and yes, his career is essentially over.

Such is the life of Senator Larry Craig, America’s most notorious Copsucker.

[dailykoff]

110. Bigger question: who set this up

and why is Craig being taken down? I find it very hard to believe that any of this is accidental. The guy is a US senator, not Pee Wee Herman in his birthday suit.

[maddezmom]

113. looks like his arrest was part of a larger sting operation

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2971742

[dailykoff]

120. If you were a chief of airport police

and one of your man-hos "stung" a sitting US senator, a GOP one no less, what would you do? I'd call him a cab and send him on his way unless I was pining to end my days as a rent-a-cop.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Good thing the management had more moral fortitude than that.

[dailykoff]

124. Bureaucrats survive through self-preservation, not moral fortitude.

And I doubt than anybody involved in this affair is doing anything less.

[roguevalley]

167. and then again, he could be reckless enough to take a risk,

because he excelled before and had not gotten caught. reckless behavior is at the core of this. he's also a simpleton.

[dailykoff]

171. Oh no doubt.

Look if there are homosexual prostitutes traipsing through the WH at all hours none of this news. What's news is that this guy got busted for what by all appearances is probably the least of chimpco's routine sex crimes.

[roguevalley]

166. your post, donkey, is brilliant. thanks. :)

[0007]

175. Excellent piece of writing and explains my views to a tee!

Thank you..

[2beToby]

180. Thank you for this post

Thank you!

Everything you said here I agree with whole heartedly. Especially, "Take that, stall invader!"

How could this possibly be a misunderstanding?

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

114. you have other peoples' feet touch yours in the stall?

funny. 30 years of shitting, and that's not happened one time.

[MarkInLA]

116. I said I've had feet tapping next to mine (n/t)

You can read, can't you?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

123. Did he get arrested for tapping his feet?

You did read the article didn't you? Or are you for some reason jumping to the defense of a republican who pled guilty and calling DU'ers "weenies" carte blanche for some reason? Gotta admit, haven't heard "weenies" in a long time though so thanks for that, you rule.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

115. I thought you agreed peeping toms should be illegal.

Weenies are the kind of people who can't admit when their heroes fuck up.

Which do you enjoy most about Larry Craig, Mark? His homophobia or his anonymous gay sex in airport restrooms?

[MarkInLA]

117. This is a waste of my time... Forget it. (n/t)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

118. You've got better things to do, eh?

Make your own paint thinner? Shoot up the pick-up in the front lawn?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

125. Read the transcript...There are inconsistencies on both sides.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Craigtranscript.pdf

I don't know. I'm getting a bad feeling this could be a setup akin to the "evidence" of Dumbyass being AWOL that got Dan Rather in hot water.

[jpgray]

128. What's the inconsistency on the officer's side?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

170. Well, I'm not sure, but

the right hand ring thing seems a little odd. Why would someone reach under a stall with the hand that is farthest away from it?

On the other hand, I find it highly unlikely that Craig would take it upon himself to pick paper up off the floor of the stall.

[jkoehler]

130. Bottom line

The bottom line is he plead guilty to the charges. Now he wants to claim his innocence. Sorry, it's too late for that. If I went into a public restroom to take a crap and then got arrested for soliciting sex, I sure as hell wouldn't plead guilty! And I'm just a regular schmo. This guy is a US Senator!

I don't buy his explanation that he was picking up a piece of toilet paper either. It's on the tape, that's what he said. How many people pick up toilet paper off the floor of a public restroom? Does he earn extra cash by doing janitorial work when he travels?

[Ex Lion Tamer]

137. I disagree.

If we accept the "he pleaded guilty, so he's stuck with it" argument now, then I think we have to accept it when it's used by anybody. I'm not willing to do that: I am more afraid of police overreaching than I am of Larry Craig. We all know that innocent people HAVE pleaded guilty.

Having said that, I doubt that Craig is innocent; and I think he's probably a gigantic hypocrite. But I want to make that argument on the facts of the event and not on the plea.

[beejay39]

135. Haven't seen any mention of this particular hypocrisy...

The typical GOP stalwart seems to be all in favor of catching and punishing criminals by whatever means necessary, whether polite or not, or even whether Constitutional. Many of these stalwarts are in favor of criminalizing homosexual behavior. Ergo, somebody who engages in homosexual behavior should (in their eyes) be caught and punished, using whatever means available. Entrapment, even, when it's "bad people" being pursued. But when it's someone at the top of the GOP pecking order, then screaming "entrapment" is supposed to get him off. Of all the behaviors I can think of, hypocrisy is one of the most disgusting, more so even than Larry Craig down on his knees in a puddle of piss, doing whatever he was offering when he slid his hand along the bottom of that stall. (don't you wonder what he smelled like when he got home?)

Sorry, stalwarts, but if you preach enforcement of the laws by whatever means, and throwing the books at perps, you have to accept that you are not just talking about scooping up black babes with large hair standing on the corners. You just might have to accept that one of your own might be one of the "bad people" Then best you suck it in and say "OK, throw the book at him." And if it is one of the most righteous among you, then all the more.

It all reminds me of a book I read someplace. I forget what it was called, but there was a line... "You Scribes and Pharisees, YOU HYPOCRITES!"

[roguevalley]

168. one cannot overlook also that Vitter survived, even in diapers,

because he hit on women. Craig and Foley hit on men and they are toast. I'm surprised no one has mentioned this on the news.

[roguevalley]

169. So, beejay, bj, is that an accident or are you fooling us with your

gigantic brain?

[jgraz]

136. Looks like I missed the party

Crap, I loves me a good ol' fashioned tombstoning.

[Eurobabe]

140. My feet always go into another stall when I am on the toilet, yeah, right...

What a lying POS Craig is...

:eyes:

[Snellius]

141. Who tapped his foot up and down first?

From the police account it seems that the undercover officer was the first to tap his foot up and down, a sign according to stall-cruising etiquette, it seems, that the tapper wants to engage in sex. Is this entrapment? If it is, Craig was in a no-win dilemma. Even if it was entrapment, by responding as he did to the overture he was admitting that he understood what all these gestures really meant, that he was familiar with the game and that he had undoubtedly played it before.

[Vinca]

142. On listening to this tape again, this is what hit me.

When they discussed the foot tapping and the hand under the stall, why didn't Craig ask what the big deal was? At no point was there any indication he DIDN'T know what these activities meant. I don't know about you, but if I went into a restroom and people started tapping their feet and putting their hands under the stall wall, I'd think they were nuts - I'd have no idea I was being solicited for sex. It appears only people engaging in public restroom sex know these signals and Craig expressed zero surprise at what he was being accused of. He didn't seem particularly upset, either. With a high priced lawyer he probably could have weaseled out of this, but he plead guilty. End of case.

[sabra]

143. he also made it a point that he was not gay, and didn't do that kind of "stuff"

[TexasBushwhacker]

147. Yeah, what straight man ....

would allow his foot to touch, or be touched, by another man's foot in a bathroom stall? I think most people would move their foot AWAY from the other person's, just out of a sense of privacy. Is it really THAT common for men to sit spread eagle in the john, so much so that their feet touch each other and it doesn't mean "something"?

I've had straight male friends that have been approached in men's rooms and their response was either "No thanks, I'm straight." or "Leave me alone faggot!".

[closeupready]

145. Okay, I listened to it and the LEO was badgering Craig, IMO.

Craig pled guilty of course, but this tape does not reflect well on how this operation was conducted, IMO. Nor does it clear up exactly what happened.

It does not appear from the tape that Craig either engaged in sex in the bathroom, nor did he solicit sex from the officer.

[Vinca]

148. But that's exactly what we don't know - the "secret signals."

The foot tapping and left hand under the stall seem to mean "ready, willing and able." If, on the tape, Craig had said "so what if my foot touched yours, what's the big deal" or something to give the impression he didn't know what is apparently the international sex-in-the-public-restroom sign, I might think he was somehow framed. I really feel sorry for the cop in this case. No cop wants to arrest a public figure in a case like this because - as is happening now - he's being accused of entrapment. Believe it or not, cops - and I speak as a former one - are not trying to tally up the largest number of arrests they possibly can. For each arrest there is hours of paperwork. Then, after that is done, if the person goes to court there are hours and hours of depositions and court appearances and 99% of the time they occur on your time off. There's nothing a cop hates more than working the night shift, then spending all day hanging around the court house knowing they have to somehow get some rest to work the night shift again. If the depositions, trials, etc. happen when the cop if on vacation it's too bad, so sad, reschedule the vacation. From the sounds of it, this cop had been assigned to the restroom in response to complaints and there had been numerous arrests. If Craig didn't know what was happening, the tape sure didn't indicate it. My only question is to wonder how many cops have let him go in the past.

[humbled_opinion]

149. I just don't get it though....

I mean can you really fuck under the stall? I can't comprehend it. Maybe you make contact and then join each other in one stall but then what about the luggage etc wouldn't it be a bit cramped.. we are talking about a matter of physics too right? Do Gay people actually somehow do this and if so wouldn't it be visible to people just generally entering the room? If this was such a big problem at the airport then the UC should just come and go in and out and wait for those inclined to engage once engaged bust them in the act... I just can't fathom it.

[cd3dem]

153. you'ld be surprised what people can do in a stall

several years ago, I was at a bowling alley/bar joint... outside the ladies room was a man who was upset with his girlfriend who was in the bathroom... I went in there and inside one of the stalls was two women.... one the man's GF who was standing facing the door in front of the toilet... the other on her knees was giving the gal oral sex... there was plenty of noise and it was very evident what was happening... very public place... you would be surprised...

what two people do in their own private place is their business but this is a public problem for those who don't want to see it or hear it...

[humbled_opinion]

154. I see.. but I think my broader point is...

If two people were having sex in a public bathroom stall it would be evident so why does the UC need to sit in a stall to witness the behavior answer is he doesn't... This whole affair is an attempt to trap individuals but we are reading way too much into the actions, codes, signals etc... i.e., if I approach a women who is standing on a street corner and I flash some hand signal that supposedly means I would like to have sex with her can I be arrested for soliciting prostitution ?

This is a slippery slope... from another prospective...Sex in public i.e., on the beach, in a swimming pool or hot tub etc from an exhibitionist position is arousing because it comes with the added euphoria of potentially being caught or seen, if you take pre-cautions to ensure you are under cover and not lewd in any way then I really don't see anything wrong with it...

Am I wrong?

[cd3dem]

155. is there a victim with public sex acts?

yes, imagine you enter this restroom... and really have to go or don't have the time to go elsewhere.... you have your son with you or small daughter.... or perhaps you are a woman and send your 8 year old son in alone and two men are in there having oral sex.... does this harm anyone? does this cause distress to some? yes... some might not care and walk out... some might not like it but deal with it?

this is not about homosexual sex... it is about public sex.... cops need to do something to stop it... it was labeled a problem... just like online solicitation of teens... prostitutes on the streets where families and businesses are....

obviously Mpls airport was identified as being a problem... they would not be there unless people complained...

we progressed from the "sex is dirty" mindset to the "sex is no big deal"

I don't want to be a part of someone elses fantasy without my consent....

the guy was busted... he is no fool.... he knew his rights and pled guilty... thought it would go away... it did not... now he has to deal with it.... something is wrong with this type of denial...

[cd3dem]

159. Secret Signals: How Gay Men Cruise for Sex

"Tapping of the foot is pretty standard for men who cruise in toilets," said Keith Griffith, owner of Cruisingforsex.com, a Web site on which visitors post locations popular with men looking for anonymous sex...



With many other options available for gay men to meet each other, Gershen Kaufman, a professor emeritus of psychology at Michigan State University and author of the book "Coming Out of Shame," said public cruising is practiced mainly by deeply closeted men.

"Cruisers are not sex offenders. They are deeply, deeply closeted. There is a lot of self-hatred and shame and they can't allow themselves to come to terms with their sexuality. There is also the added element of danger and being discovered," he said.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3534199&page=1

[cd3dem]

151. undercover officers are not going to "engaged in sex" with suspects before they arrest them

Craig is not the only person caught in this sting... they did not target the guy because he was a senator... he did the same thing every other person did that got arrested... this officer knew exactly at what point to identify himself as a police officer... undercover officers are not going to "engaged in sex" with suspects before they arrest them... if that were the case, I think we would have a different problem... the officer said, I don't care what your orientation is, but you are lying about what you did...

have you ever seen Dateline: To Catch a Predator? these guys all come looking for sex and when they get caught, they all deny their intensions... well I was just coming to hang-out... BS

Craig said he is wide and had to spread his legs to hold his pants from sliding down... this guy is average size for his age, not wide... there is no reason to extend your leg to the point of touching the guy in the stall next to you...

MPLS airport had the reputation of this type of behavior which drew both Craig and the undercover police officer to the restroom... the problem for Craig is they had different reasons for going there... the guy got caught... he knew it and pled guilty...

[Snellius]

173. It appears it was the cop who first solicited sex not Craig

If the police officer was the first to tap his foot, given the "secret signals", then he was the one who first solicited sex not Craig. So this cop goes into bathroom stalls, taps his foot, and if the suspect responds appropriately then he is accused of lewd conduct. As much as I relish a hypocrite like Craig brought down, this is a really devious way to do it.

[cd3dem]

177. undercover operations are supposed to be upfront and honest?

WOW that would catch a lot of predators...

[CountAllVotes]

146. Craig

= a nasty naughty boy (time to resign you pervert!).

:kick:

[Radio_Lady]

152. Without taking sides on this, I abhor all the times someone had to delete a message here.

Maybe I'm losing my optimistic view of this website.

Very depressing...

Radio Lady in Oregon

[bamacrat]

172. Wow, I have never seen this many deleted messages for one thread.

I don't know what happened, I don't really care. If he was looking for some sex then I guess he should get in trouble, if it was all just misunderstandings and coincidences then people should let it go. EVERYONE knew for a fact that the Duke Lacrosse team raped that girl. Then what happened,oh just prosecutorial misconduct, the charges were dropped. The cop may have been soliciting Craig.

[Zenlitened]

174. It was just one poster -- now tombstoned -- who called out another DUer...

... over and over again in the subject line. Pretty idiotic stuff.

And that was BEFORE he got to the "meat" of his posts (if you'll forgive the horrible pun!) -- which basically amounted to "liberals are big meanies for pointing out the staggering hypocrisy that infests the republican party." :cry:

LOL!

[cd3dem]

179. the family man resigns

still in denial... why doesn't he admit the truth... divorce his wife and find a good man to settle down with... what the hell! being married and having sex in bathrooms is more respectable?