"Love thy enemy" -- U.S. soldier gets discharge

[Lone_Star_Dem]

Source: Reuters

NEW YORK, Oct 16 (Reuters) - A U.S. soldier who said his Christian beliefs compelled him to love his enemies, not kill them, has been granted conscientious objector status and honorably discharged, a civil liberties group said on Tuesday.

Capt. Peter Brown -- who served in Iraq for more than a year and was a graduate of the elite U.S. military academy West Point -- said in a statement issued by the New York Civil Liberties Union that he was relieved the Army had recognized his beliefs made it impossible for him to serve.

"In following Jesus' example, I could not have fired my weapon at another human being, even if he were shooting at me," said Brown, who plans to continue seminary classes he began by correspondence while in Iraq.

Read more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N16467661.htm

[truthisfreedom]

1. Ahh, so if you use the Bible as your reason for not killing people, you get CO status.

But if you are, say, an Atheist who doesn't believe the war is just, you have to pick up your gun and kill or be incarcerated and dishonorably discharged.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

5. My thinking on this was it might set a legal precedence

Which could be useful if ever this is a draft again.

I understand and agree with what you're saying. However, this could extend CO status greatly in the future.

I find the article to have interesting implications.

[StarryNite]

19. My thoughts too.

This could really come in handy should they start up the draft in order to keep this bloodbath going.

[UndertheOcean]

22. Is "legal precedence" binding ? how is the decision made

to go with precedence or to overturn it ? It seems so arbitrary.

[alfredo]

17. When asked my religion at induction, I said Atheist and they

put down Protestant.

Had a friend denied CO status because he was a Jew. Another denied CO status even though he was Buddhist. He joined the ASA because it was typically non combatant.

[UndertheOcean]

2. why did he join the army to begin with ?

I bet if he was a leftist refusing to serve in an unjust war , his case would be dismissed.

[atreides1]

4. That's making an ASSumption

If you're really interested in his reasons, why not try to get in touch with him?

[UndertheOcean]

8. How ?

[UndertheOcean]

9. And He made his reasons clear ? didn't he ?

He said , Jesus says : "love your enemies" and they let him go .

Maybe he became a "christian" AFTER he joined the Army.

[Ian David]

12. Yes, Jesus said Love Thy Enemies.

But that means that Jesus also WANTED YOU TO HAVE enemies, didn't he?

How can you love your enemies unless you HAVE enemies?

If you want to follow Jesus, you NEED to go out and MAKE some Enemies to love!

And what greater gift is there than to (lovingly) send your enemies (who you love) into the sweet embrace of Jesus (who loves them) in Heaven?

I mean, have you seen Baghdad lately?

Would you want to live there?

I wouldn't.

So, if you really love your enemies, aren't you doing them a favor by sending them to Jesus?





Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

[superconnected]

24. When you resort to having to grab and make stuff up

it totally lets out the any steam that may have been credible in your argument.

[Ian David]

25. Did you miss the sarcasm notation at the end? n/t

[superconnected]

26. Yes, I missed it. My apology.

[Ian David]

27. No problem. n/t

[robinlynne]

29. but funny.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

13. From the article:

Brown said he had no conflict between his faith and military service until after he graduated from West Point in 2004 and began to study scripture and his belief.

During his Iraq deployment he applied for discharge as a conscientious objector but the request was denied, the NYCLU said. In July 2007 the NYCLU and the American Civil Liberties Union asked a federal court in Washington, D.C., to order the honorable discharge.
------------

I can't say what was in his heart, but whatever his motivation was it would appear that his method worked.

[Ian David]

14. Well, maybe he can blame the proselytizing military chaplains trying to convert everyone. Oops. n/t

[Zhade]

42. "began to study scripture and his belief" - another example of inherited "belief".

NT!

[monktonman]

10. For the health benefits???

Lots of people join the armed services for reasones other than their desire to shoot people.
My neighbor joined the gaurd because his girlfriend was pregnant and they couldnt
afford the health insurance. another reason why the "righty's" are so violently opposed to
universal health care.
Another guy I know joined the army for the educational benefit
or how about the cheap loans?
There are even people who join to help out in situations like Katrina.
Go figure.

[UndertheOcean]

11. So , he joined for the money ...not that I blame him..I just don't buy

his reason for quitting , he was probably just scared of getting killed and wanted out, who wouldn't.

[monktonman]

15. Dude...your really pushing the "phoney soldier" envelope.

Really frickin hard!
I didnt say he joined "for the money" those are your
really shitty words.
I said, perhaps he joined for the safety and protection of HIS FAMILY.
Big difference.
In other words, lots of people are bribed and coerced into the armed services.
If he had joined "for the money" (fuck that makes me mad) I can think of alot of other
jobs that make a whole lot more money than amry guys.
How about driving a truck for KBR
Or murdering people for Blackmurder to new a couple.

In the future, please refrain from even the slightest appearance
of not whole-heartedly supporting the brave men and women
are the united states armed services!
I dont care why he joined as long as he's still alive
and safely in the arms of his family.

OK now......backwards from ten...........

[UndertheOcean]

16. I personally have no respect at all for the military or any person

who joins such an institution.

Don't like it , may I remind you that this is a free country and I can disrespect whom I like. And I don't think I am being unreasonable.

In the 60's there was a draft , so maybe vets then didn't deserve some of the harsh treatment they got from pacifists then , but now there is no excuse in this "voluntary army"

[monktonman]

18. I can see you wont have many friends around here.

Have fun being ignored.

[RantinRavin]

32. And may I remind you

That it is exactly that "voluntary army" that allows your country to remain free.

[UndertheOcean]

33. No , not that "freedom isn't free" bullcrap

please.

[ellisonz]

37. Yeah, without the military-industrial complex...the ChiComs would be breathing down our throats!

:woohoo:





:sarcasm:

[Zhade]

44. Bullshit. Iraq wasn't a threat and the military hasn't defended us since WWII.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights are the only things that make us free, not the military - crack a civics book, ace.

[Zhade]

43. No one has to follow your decree. I DON'T SUPPORT THEM.

And I'm from a heavily-military family!

Fuck your authoritarian demands. I and others will speak our mind whenever we feel, and you will not stop us. The sheer nerve, that you think you can dictate others' behavior!

[semillama]

3. So, will the rest of the Christians in the Armed Forces get to leave too?

I mean, supposedly there's loads of Christians in the military. Who's gonna fight our wars if there's no Christians?

:sarcasm:

I do like this article though. It really contrasts between the real Christians who actually think about their beliefs and the ones who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Sort of puts the cards on the table.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

6. It would appear they could apply for CO status as well.

That's one of the reasons I found this article to be interesting.

[Ilsa]

20. Except the ones that have bought into the idea that they are

fighting a holy war with muslims in the middle east.

[Chulanowa]

28. Well, there's Christians... and then there's Apocalyptic Death Cultists

Guess which version leans more towards people signing up during a war in the Middle East?

[AwakeAtLast]

30. Hmmmm....I think my Pagan husband just became a Christian

It's a miracle!

Now he can get out!

;)

[Zhade]

45. Anyone who worships Jesus IS a real Christian.

That so many use that worship for terrible ends just makes them real BAD Christians... but given interpretation and lack of supporting evidence, even that's debatable.

[gateley]

7. I think it's valid. There are Christians and then there are Christians. This guy

is a good example of the teachings of that religion. During VietNam our next door neighbor registered as a CO and was granted the status. In lieu of serving he was required to do something else, don't honestly remember what it was - charity, maybe?, but he was sincere in his beliefs.

[0rganism]

21. In WWII, they had Conscientious Objectors work as corpsmen

Seems like they should have done *something* to accommodate his outlook, in keeping with his rank. Move him to logistics, or put him in charge of a platoon of EMTs, keep him in the service. I mean, the guy's a commissioned officer from West Point. Those didn't grow on trees, last I heard. Dumb move by the Army. :shrug:

Well, good on this guy for getting out this way, I suppose, and maybe it will open the backdoor to begin the troop level reductions from the ground up.

[CatholicEdHead]

36. Problem is, most of those jobs have been "outsoruced"

So, the only real military job is they frontline grunt with a gun. Most of the support positions have been outsourced to the hilt to private contractors.

[superconnected]

23. At least he's a Christian who actually wants to practice Christianity.

IE thou shalt not kill.

That's a rarity.

[Gin]

31. Wow........he found this out "after" his West Point Education....

color me skeptical.

[iverglas]

39. I wondered too -- and it seems so

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jjvYoOw6tDO3KCQJAA-UpvUY2lPAD8SAKPRG0

Brown was stationed in Baghdad for more than a year with the 2nd Battalion, 14th Infantry Regiment out of Fort Drum in northern New York. His conversion to a pacifist interpretation of the Bible began after his commission into the Army when he attended a civilian religious center in the Netherlands in 2004, the lawsuit said.

While in Iraq, Brown applied for discharge from the Army as a conscientious objector. Though a chaplain appointed by the Army and an investigating officer both concluded that he was sincere and recommended an honorable discharge, the Army disagreed and denied his request.

... "Peter Brown showed by clear and convincing evidence that he is a deeply sincere conscientious objector because of his religious training and beliefs," Karpatkin said. "It should not have required the filing of a lawsuit for the Army to recognize those beliefs."

I hope that it is the sincerity of the pacifist belief is the issue, not the reason why a person holds it (i.e. adherence to a particular religion or religious doctrine), that is the determining factor.

Of course, I've never been of the view that sincere pacifism is any different from, let alone better than, sincere anti-imperialism ...

[BrklynLiberal]

34. Makes me think ofthe nonsequitur comic I received today...

[tomg]

35. If anyone is interested regarding

conscientious objection and the military, check out the Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors
at http://www.objector.org

Incidentally, becoming a co is a long, complex process. I know first hand. There are far more co applications from those in the military than we hear about. A couple of quick points. Captain Brown had already served a year in Irag. I was co in 1970 ( had deferment gave it up to go co), and a friend of mine who was short-time in Vietnam became co while over there because the experience there utterly altered him. He simply would not be part of it anymore. It caused him to stay there longer while his case was adjudicated. Captain Brown had already served in Irag. For some reason, I have a feeling the experience over there probably brought those beliefs to the surface.

There are also two kinds of co. One is Co-10 and the other is Co-1AO. One means that you will perform alternate service but will not serve in the military. The other means that you will serve as a non-combatant ( medic, etc).

Conscientious objectors - both 10 and 1A0 - have a long tradition. Absolutists in WWI were imprisoned and subject to pretty bad conditions ( a number died from treatment). A number of 1A0s have been awarded medals for valour, at least one winner of the Medal of Honor.

In the US, in order to be granted co status, you cannot oppose a particular war ( eg - Iraq is illegal or immoral, but another war might be justifiable).

on edit: I might have 10 and 1AO reversed. It's been quite awhile.

[superconnected]

38. Good post!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

40. Who are we to criticize someone who wants to get out of this stinking mess?

If Capt. Brown is truly taking his Christianity to heart, more power to him...I hope other "Christians" read about this.

And if he's hiding behind religion to exit a war that never should have begun, I don't blame him.

[Zhade]

41. Um... isn't this government endorsing religion?

I mean, excellent he's not going to go murder Iraqis, but doesn't endorsement of his REASON violate the separation of church and state intended by the founders?