Gunmen fire on Venezuelan protesters

[Bacchus39]

Source: cnn

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- Gunmen opened fire on students returning from a march Wednesday in which 80,000 people denounced President Hugo Chavez's attempts to expand his power. At least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, officials said.


A supporter of Venezuela President Hugo Chavez points a pistol at two opponents of Chavez Wednesday.

Photographers for The Associated Press saw at least four gunmen -- their faces covered by ski masks or T-shirts -- firing handguns at the anti-Chavez crowd. Terrified students ran through the campus as ambulances arrived.

National Guard troops gathered outside the Central University of Venezuela, the nation's largest and a center for opposition to Chavez's government. Venezuelan law bars state security forces from entering the campus, but Luis Acuna, the minister of higher education, said they could be called in if the university requests them.

Antonio Rivero, director of Venezuela's Civil Defense agency, told local Union Radio that at least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, and that no one had been killed. Earlier, Rivero said he had been informed that one person had died in the violence.



Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/07/venezuela.protest.violence.ap/index.html

[papau]

1. not the first time the RW has attacked/shot at its own supporters so as to blame the left n/t

[Bacchus39]

2. uh huh, sure

n/t

[subsuelo]

6. it's happened before in Venezuela

[Progressive Friend]

13. Read: Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II, by William Blum

[EFerrari]

26. It isn't the first time. We have these guys on tape

doing exactly that. Shooting at people and then manipulating the media and blaming Chavez.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

36. So where's the denial from Chavez?

I'm waiting to hear him say that his own security forces weren't involved. If he's not saying it, I'm not buying it.

[Judi Lynn]

37. Haven't you read any of the articles? Even the corporate media sources indicate

police and "own security forces" are NOT ALLOWED ON THE CAMPUS. It's their law.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

38. Ah, you're right.

Blerg. Too early in the morning.

[superconnected]

124. could go either way.

Has before.

[BornagainDUer]

128. Ooooh. Looky at those numbers. So specific and large. Now compare

that to the "thousands" we are told about marching in anti-war protests in the US when tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands were actually marching. Ooooooooh, looky at that.

Right Wing shit for sure is this report.

[tom_paine]

165. How very true. Specific and large. I agree this sticks out like a sore thumb.

AP Bushiganda, although that doesn't make Chavez pure in all this.

[Socal31]

35. Wow...

what planet are you from?

[EFerrari]

115. The planet that follows events in Venezuela?

There's a link to the video in #99.

[BornagainDUer]

134. LOL! Nice one.

:toast:

[BornagainDUer]

136. Jasocal?

[Andrushka]

3. The AP saw it, did it?

And they knew they were "Chavez supporters" huh? I'd trust AP reporting on Venezuela as much as I'd trust anything that came out of Dana Perino's mouth.

[Faygo Kid]

4. I like Chavez, but. . .

This is worth keeping an eye on. I give nobody a free pass.

[BreweryYardRat]

49. Exactly. Accountability is a requirement.

This could be some shifty black op, it could be the Venezuelan government squashing dissidents, or it could just be a couple of assholes too blind/stupid to understand that people have a right to disagree with the government's policies.

(Ironically, if someone shot up a Neo-Nazi or KKK march here and killed some of those assholes, I'd cheer my head off. Disagreeing with the government (any government, any side of the left/right line) is a long way from advocating mass murder of people just because they're different.)

[Socal31]

227. What do you mean?

Because he is a communist and called B*sh the devil at the UN, we should allow him to do what he wants. He can do no wrong. We shall defend him no matter what. Any negative news about him is CIA propoganda, and any positive news is gospel. *Enter Sarcasm .Gif Here*

[Pavulon]

5. Better Image...

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8SP4FF00&show_article=1&image=large

Shows person with para-military training with with a sidearm.

[jordi_fanclub]

12. Not a good advertising (to the anti-Chavez protesters)

Your image is very interesting... if you know the universities have autonomy in Venezuela.
(probably you know that in Venezuela the Police did not enter the University Campus)
And mainly because the panel above the door says: "Faculty of Economic and Social Sciences"

So, what you call "para-militaries" are probably... some "pacific" ANTI-Chavez "students".
EDIT: (hilarious because it's not a "smart" pic to publish on a ring-wing "news" website!
or maybe it is... considering the average frequent reader/fan of FOXnews et al.)

[Pavulon]

14. That person was instructed

on how to use that weapon. The person firing into the crowd there was trained by an army or police department.

[PassingFair]

235. Thank you, Dr. Frist! nt

[Andrushka]

15. Just been looking through Yahoo! images

That's the same doorway that the two students are pushing against in the original post. It would be very interesting to know the timeline: was the image on gunmen by themselves in the door taken before the image of the four men, one pointing a gun? If so, why would two unarmed men go and try and push against the door?

I dunno, after what happened in 2002, this smells of BS to me already.

[Pavulon]

16. Well somebody did get shot..

8 somebodies.. sure they did not shoot themselves in protest.

[Bacchus39]

18. the government is blaming the student protesters and the media

http://www.eluniversal.com/2007/11/07/refco_ava_ministro-carreno-acu_07A1180077.shtml


sorry, its in Spanish but there it is.

[Pavulon]

31. Like that Chris Rock skit

about crime. It is not the media shooting people...

(on edit: the act is of course racial commentary. that is nt the point of the post. The point was that the media is not shooting students after a anti establishment rally)

[Andrushka]

20. Well, yes

But for the AP to tell us they were "pro-Chavez" just because they were firing on students smells like BS. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

If you look at Reuters photo captions, they make no such assumption (correctly calling them gunmen).

[liberalsoldier5]

33. Wow. What a stretch.

You almost couldn't turn this around to make that piece of shit Chavez look good and the pro-freedom marchers look evil, but you did! Phewf! Hooray for revisionism of the present! :sarcasm:

[subsuelo]

41. do you have evidence to share indicating Chavez was involved?

[ohio2007]

43. the opposition to "rule by decree" is being dealt with

in a legal manner

si ?

[subsuelo]

7. Chavez would not be involved in shooting unarmed protestors

No way.

[Pavulon]

9. Absolute Power...

how does that go.. He is not a god, he is a man. Men have a very long history of interacting with power.

[liberalsoldier5]

34. ....so sad.

Some "liberals" are just so damn hopeless.

[subsuelo]

40. show me the evidence

all I'm saying.

Show me the evidence.

[LynnTheDem]

47. And some "liberals"

aren't.

[redqueen]

53. If only it was ONLY the trolls who were so ready to believe

whatever trash the corporate media shills with respect to Chavez.

[LynnTheDem]

190. Too true.

70% of Americans believed the bullshit "Saddam did 911" media shills. That would include a good percentage of non-trolls.

But they're willing to be punked again.

And again.

And again...


It never bloody ends.

[redqueen]

191. So willing to be punked again.

I just do. not. understand. how that happens.

[IsItJustMe]

233. You said a mouth full. I personally find it very troubling when I seem to be agreeing with people

like Bush and Pat Robertson. But hey, some folks just have a ring in their nose.

[rudeboy666]

8. Maybe just some Chavez fanatics

The headline is very misleading (the implication being that GOVERNMENT officials fired).

It seems that it was just a couple of blind Chavez fanatics.

Whether the government was involved or encouraged this type of behavior is another story (although no proof has arisen yet).

[Bacchus39]

11. it seems safer to march in a pro-Chavez rally though

n/t

[slackmaster]

10. This thread will not end well

:hide:

[EFerrari]

27. There's no need for a free for all. As said up thread

this is an old tactic.

[Beerboy]

66. Who says this thread has to end? n/t.

[David__77]

17. The gunmen are anti-Chavez communists. It will be revealed.

The "Red Flag Party" of Enver Hoxha brand communists is behind this provocation. Not Chavez supporters. Red Flag had a history of such violent provocations in the service of the fascists.

[Progressive Friend]

19. I've heard of the "Red Flag Party" before too

I also heard that they were even kicked out of the "Hoxhaist" international grouping of formerly pro-Albania communist parties, and are considered to be renegades by pretty much everyone.

[Judi Lynn]

39. You're right. They are mentioned in this article which was written about the student "movement"

during the RCTV protests, back in early summer:

June 9 / 10, 2007

Who's Pulling the Strings?
Behind Venezuela's "Student Rebellion"
By GEORGE CICCARIELLO-MAHER

Caracas.

~snip~
That the "student leaders" are tied to the opposition is far from controversial: for example, spokesperson Yon Goicochea is a member of Primero Justicia and the aptly-named Stalin González belonged until recently to the strangest of opposition organizations, Bandera Roja. BR is a nominally Marxist-Leninist group which made the unlikely transition from a respectable guerrilla organization to the attack dogs of the far right, claiming to use the opposition as a vehicle to topple the fake communism of Chávez and institute a true dictatorship of the proletariat. But González recently revealed the extent of his opportunism by joining Rosales and Un Nuevo Tiempo.

But the contours of the opposition's hands-off strategy wouldn't be fully clear until the revelation of a taped phone conversation in which Un Nuevo Tiempo leader Alfonso Marquina spoke of the need to remain in the background, but to pull the strings regardless: "Let's mobilize all the kids We have a strategy as an organization Let's mobilize all the kids, because you know {UCV student leader} Stalin {González} is our vice president here in Caracas Let's mobilize the kids from the Catholic {University} We've decided that the politicians won't intervene, that we'll leave it to the kids in their natural environment. We'll give them support, stick them in trucks If I go out there, they'll say it's the politicians that are calling the kids out"

"The only thing that can save us in this situation is if something extraordinary happens," replies Elías, an advisor to RCTV head Marcel Granier, on the leaked tape. It's comments like this that lead the Vice President of the National Assembly Desiree Santos to argue that the political opposition to Chávez was "looking for a death" among the students, to "repeat the actions of 2002" in which pre-meditated deaths were inserted into a pre-fabricated media strategy to overthrow Chávez.

Santos continues: "We want to denounce today a campaign which intends to convince the country that these student protests are spontaneous, civil, peaceful, and democratic, but behind them there lies an entire conspiratorial apparatus. They are using these kids as cannon fodder..." It was little surprise, then, that when a student was indeed killed (but under circumstances unrelated to the protests), the opposition press immediately ran with the story, only later rectifying their erroneous reports that she had been shot by police. This convenient misreporting even led to the story reaching the pages of Spain's El País.
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/maher06092007.html

[cali]

229. I have no idea what happened. From what I can discern Chavez

was not involved, but Counterpunch is totally not a credible source. It's no more credible than World nut daily,

[redqueen]

62. Again, something that's happened repeatedly throughout history.

Why do so many seem to be unaware of how these games are played?

I don't get it...

[struggle4progress]

21. " ... While the exact circumstances of the incident remained unclear ...

was the first time in the campaign there were serious injuries and came days after Chavez said the opposition wanted to stoke violence to destabilize the country ...

The OPEC nation's civil defence chief, Antonio Rivero, told Globovision television station from the scene of the violence, that at least two people were shot and wounded ...

Witnesses told Globovision, which is openly critical of Chavez and sympathetic to the opposition, that the assailants fired guns and threw tear gas canisters. A Reuters witness at the scene said bystanders could not tell how the violence erupted ..."

At least 2 shot in Venezuela after anti-Chavez march
Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:59am GMT
http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKN0759583920071108

[struggle4progress]

22. ".. A government official initially said one person was killed, but university authorities later ..

denied there was any fatality and said four students were taken to hospital with gunshot wounds ..."

Four shot in Venezuela student protest
From correspondents in Caracas
November 08, 2007 12:41pm
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22723649-5005961,00.html

[struggle4progress]

23. " .. Unidentified gunmen opened fire on the students as they returned from the march ...

One witness told the Reuters news agency that after the initial violence supporters of Mr Chavez drove through the area on motorbikes and shooting into the air.

National Guardsmen had been posted along the march route to stop clashes between protesters and Chavez supporters ...

Gunmen fire on Venezuela protest
Last Updated: Thursday, 8 November 2007, 01:26 GMT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7084262.stm

[Bacchus39]

24. slide show

a variety of pics from recent events in Ven staritng with today's events



http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/wl/030204venezuela/im:/071107/481/20053501c83e4b74a4e272b117cda52e;_ylt=Anjs1XS0kRDiV5O9r4NtcUeaK8MA?sp=3000&auto=yes

[Peace Patriot]

25. And we are to believe that these gunmen are pro-Chavez because...?

Come on, people! Where do you think many of your 'disappeared' tax dollars are going? Into black budgets to fund the destruction of democracy, to discredit elected leaders like Chavez in Venezuela, Morales in Bolivia and Correa in Ecuador, who would dare to use oil profits to benefit the poor, and to do many a nefarious deed, in South America and around the world.

Gunmen shooting at anti-Chavez protesters benefits...whom? Why would pro-Chavez people do this? All polls indicate that the Constitutional reforms that have been discussed for months, were passed by the National Assembly a few weeks ago, and will be voted on by the people of Venezuela this week, are going to be approved by a big majority of the voters. Those in support of the reforms would be mad to get out guns and start shooting. And pro-Chavez folks have NEVER done so before! They are not inclined to, they have no history of violence, and they have no need for it. They are the majority, and because the elections are transparent and honest in Venezuela (unlike our own), the interests of the majority prevail.

In 2002, anti-Chavez protesters, in the midst of the rightwing military coup attempt, shot pro-Chavez protesters and killed several. The film footage of that incident, which the rightwing TV station RCTV broadcast a narrow portion of--to make it look like pro-Chavez people were shooting people--was later exposed as a fraud, by the Irish filmmakers who made the excellent documentary "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised." RCTV excluded the part of the footage that showed who was being shot at, and only showed a pro-Chavez protester who had pulled out a gun in self-defense, while all around him dropped to the ground as bullets flew past them.

While these rightwing gunmen shot at pro-Chavez protesters, their puppetmasters inside Miraflores Palace (the seat of government) were announcing the suspension of the Constitution, of civil rights, of the National Assembly and the courts, and were announcing that their dictatorship was taking over the government. They had kidnapped President Chavez and taken him away. RCTV helped the coup further by announcing that Chavez had resigned (he had not), to help the coupsters convince Venezuelans that their democracy was over.

But the Venezuelan people, despite these scary announcements and the shootings of pro-Chavez protesters, and the presence of police and military in the streets, poured out of their homes in the hundreds of thousands, surrounded Miraflores Palace and demanded, a) the reinstatement of their Constitution and the rule of law, and b) the return of their kidnapped President. This public pressure convinced the presidential guard and democratic elements in the military to rebel against the coup. Thus, Venezuelan democracy was saved, by its own brave people, and Chavez was restored to his rightful office.

I have to laugh when the Bushite "talking point" is repeated, that Hugo Chavez is a "dictator." Hugo Chavez owes his office, any power that he has, and his life, to the Venezuelan people. They have voted for him in three elections, with ever increasing margins. They defeated the rightwing military coup that ripped up the Constitution and kidnapped him. He owes them in a deep way. You think he would dare to "dictate" to them? You think they would put up with a "dictator"?

What we are seeing in this current incident is rightwing theater, in my opinion. I have no doubt at all, myself, who these gunmen are in the pay of. It's the rightwing oil elite's play to try to project their own violent and unlawful intentions onto Chavez supporters. They are trying to create an image, an impression, that both sides are violent. And they are trying to cause trouble--chaos, anger, phony "riots," civil conflict. Penn & Schoen "School of the Americas" Manual, Lesson 1: destabilization.

And our war profiteering corporate news monopolies provide the playbill for this rightwing theater. They want you to believe that democracy and social justice are not possible--that it is inevitably violent for the poor majority to assert their rights, and to take their rightful place in politics and government. They want to besmirch this peaceful, democratic revolution. And they, of course, will devote no resources to investigating who these gunmen are, and if their masked faces are ever uncovered, they will never report the truth to you. Their role is to focus you on the violent show that their buds in Venezuela have orchestrated, while they drown you in their river of forgetfulness.

[Bacchus39]

30. don't believe your lying eyes.

you are extremely naive to believe that people cannot act violently without outside interference. also, quite condescending to Venezuelans or any other people to imply they lack the ability to act independently, even if destructively, outside of US influence.

[redqueen]

56. All the poster above did was question the credibility of the press

regarding that characterization... not claim that it was impossible for it to be true.

Nice strawman, though!

[Bacchus39]

69. I didn't see it today in Prensa Latina or Granma or other "reputable" news source

so I guess it didn't really happen.

[redqueen]

72. I missed the part where that made sense. (nt)

[Bacchus39]

81. I can help!! see post #75 and the "source" of the news story

that should give you a clue.

[dipsydoodle]

88. Good point

still not on there : http://www.plenglish.com/NewsSection.asp?Section=ENG_South&start=&end=&button=1&language=EN

Just this :
Caracas , Nov 7 (Prensa Latina) The Venezuelan political struggle over a constitutional reform for transition to socialism took once more the streets Wednesday, with caravans for a "yes" and a demonstration for a "no."


Those actions are included in an active campaign with a view to a referendum convened for December 2 that must decide if the economic, political and social changes already approved in the Parliament be applied.



"Yes" followers called caravans in the state of Aragua, while in the capital, the opposition decided to carry out a street march to the Supreme Court of Justice.



Demonstrations take place after disorder by opposition groups, which warned authorities that protests will be broken up after the first violent act.


http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={CB38E9A1-9C76-4D71-A55E-9DC664CF5551}&language=EN

[Bacchus39]

91. hmmm.... it seems some details are missing

who to believe? various accounts from the international press or the Cuban government news agency? its just so hard!!

[Rage for Order]

32. "Gunmen shooting at anti-Chavez protesters benefits...whom?"

Did you ask the same question of the recent violence in Burma? Who benefited from the violence in Burma? I'm not comparing the regime in Venezuela to that of Burma. It's an example of why those in power would use violence - sometimes it is used to retain power, other times to seize power. To dismiss this out of hand as corporate media propaganda is premature.

[subsuelo]

42. Ah but to instinctively dismiss the corporate media propaganda argument

Is to display a complete lack of understanding of problems in Venezuela and Latin/South/Central America at large

[Bacchus39]

44. what about instinctively claiming Chavez incapable of involvement in this?

you know, coup leader Chavez.

[redqueen]

60. Who has claimed he's incapable of involvement?

Is this a strawman or are you referring to something someone actually said?

[Bacchus39]

64. see post #7

n/t

[redqueen]

67. So ONE person makes the claim, and you take that all over the thread?

:rofl:

Hey, whatever works...

[Bacchus39]

70. I was responding to the SAME person who made the claim

n/t

[redqueen]

73. Hah, I missed that.

Shame they said such a silly thing.

Guess y'all will have a lot to discuss.

Good day. :)

[Bacchus39]

76. no, I'm done. I'll post more news stories as they come

I'll leave baseless accusations and blind denials to others. good day to you too.

[subsuelo]

122. when you find the evidence of Chavez involvement

show me

[ronnie624]

117. There's a big difference.

There is no evidence that the Chavez government has ever been involved in fomenting or facilitating violence of any sort, as a strategy for advancing the agenda of the Bolivarian Revolution.

The so called opposition on the other hand, has a detailed history of promoting violence.

You also have a history of flinging half-truths and bullshit all over the place.

I can't be as polite as the other poster. Anyone who dismisses out of hand, the "corporate media propaganda argument", is either a liar or a fucking idiot who doesn't keep up with what's going on.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ronnie624]

123. Perhaps one day,

with enough practice, you'll be able to post a coherent message. Don't give up.

[redqueen]

57. Not to mention a complete lack of understanding of history. (nt)

[Peace Patriot]

50. I dismiss it out of hand because I know the history of the Chavez government

and its supporters, and because I also know, from long study, how the Bush Junta, the oil giants, their local fascist allies and the corporate news monopolies have worked in concert to overthrow Venezuelan democracy, because the Venezuelan people and the Chavez government have shown independence from them.

Your comparison of these gunmen to the Burma dictatorship makes sense only in that the employees of these gunmen would like to do to the Venezuelan people what the Burmese dictatorship has done to the Burmese people, and have tried it once before in Venezuela. It makes no sense whatever for Chavez supporters to go shooting at people, and the Bolivarian movement--the vast popular, social justice movement organized by ordinary people, which put Chavez in power, and prevented his overthrow--has no history of violence--not in Venezuela, and not in the other Boliviarian countries (Bolivia, Ecuador, Argentina). It is the ordinary people who started this movement who suffer violence, at the hands of rightwing thugs and would-be dictators. And the Chavez government itself has no violent or repressive inclinations. There is no evidence of it. Furthermore, IF the Chavez government intended violent repression, they wouldn't be using a few rogue gunmen on motorcycles shooting at a few anti-Chavez students. They have the entire resources of the state at their command. And from the number of mass protests by rightwingers in Venezuela, the near complete rightwing corporate monopoly on TV/radio stations (despite the de-licensing of RCTV), and numerous other evidences, the Chavez government is running a wide open democracy in which no one need fear violent or unfair repression for peacefully expressing their views and political organizing.

This is not to say that rogue individuals, claiming to be adherents to a leftist cause, can't just privately, individually, go nuts and do something criminal. Of course that can happen. There are also publicity seekers, like the black-masked punks who helped the police disrupt the Seattle '99 protests. But this very theatrical incident in Caracas has all the earmarks of planned CIA destabilization--used in Chile, used before in Venezuela, used throughout Latin America, used in Iran in the 1950s, used everywhere in the world to disrupt democracy when it is not serving U.S. corporate interests, with the added motivation of the Bush Junta and their particular service to multinational oil corporations, which has failed, in South America, as they "lose" country after country to the PEACEFUL Bolivarian Revolution. They will do anything to reverse it. And they have many paid operatives to produce incidents and news items on cue, for whatever nefarious purpose they have in mind at the moment--a military coup (they used shooters in that one, too, and tried to blame it on Chavez supporters--but that scam was exposed), a crippling oil professionals' strike (trying to make it look like a union movement, when it was directed by Exxon-Mobile), and a U.S. taxpayer-funded recall election (trying to make it look like democracy). They will use anything and everything to stop this peoples' movement--and also to prevent its goals of social justice and democracy from gaining currency here, in this country. They have a history of it. This is what they do.

And we would fools to buy into this latest tidy little news item about the "violence" in Venezuela, as portrayed. I'm sorry, but the war profiteering corporate news monopolies are guilty until proven innocent. They have misconstrued events, and black-holed reality, and told outright lies, and spread Bushite/fascist/corporate disinformation, too often to be trusted, even on basic facts. I don't trust one word AP sends over the news wires. Not one word.

There is a simultaneous corporate campaign going on to portray the Chavez government as irresponsible, profligate and incompetent, in its management of the oil industry in Venezuela. I have seen two lying disinformation pieces--one by Reuters, another in the NYT--to this end. You can read an analysis of the NYT article here
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2808
"NYT's Tina Rosenberg Goes to School on Venezuela's Oil, and Flunks"

The purpose is not to tell the truth. The purpose is to DESTABILIZE Venezuela. I see this incident in this context--the purpose of the Corporate Rulers and the Bush Junta, which has been blatantly demonstrated in numerous ways. And I think we would all be fools NOT to see it this way--until it is proven otherwise. The Corporate Rulers and the Bush Junta and their rightwing oil elite allies in Venezuela deserve NO BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, when a self-serving item like this hits the AP news wires.

And, really, until we get smart about this--and understand what is being done to our poor, corporate media battered brains--we are going to continue being oppressed by the Bush Junta and its Corporate puppetmasters, here, in the U.S. Smarten up! Recognize disinformation when you see it. And if a peoples' self-determination, independence and democracy, against the Corporate Rulers, are at risk--as they are in Venezuela--understand, up front, that the corporate-controlled news media are going to LIE TO YOU, in many blatant or subtle ways, and we must learn to anticipate them--to struggle against the lies within ourselves and to counter them in the public venue. Don't let them play you like this! Don't let them convince you that the Bolivarian Revolution is anything but what it is: a peaceful, democratic movement, that has legitimately defeated the rich elite.

[redqueen]

59. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Looks like lots of people are all too willing to repeat it...

[struggle4progress]

28. " ... Antonio Rivero, director of Venezuela's Civil Defense agency, told local Union Radio

Antonio Rivero, director of Venezuela's Civil Defense agency, told local Union Radio that at least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, and that no one had been killed. Earlier, Rivero said he had been informed that one person had died in the violence ...

Later, Globovision television broadcast a video of armed men riding motorcycles arriving at the university, where they entered the same building in which several of the gunmen were located. The pistol-toting men stood at the doorway — one of them firing a handgun in the air — as people fled the building ...

"We want to urge the media to reflect, to stop broadcasting biased news through media manipulation, filling a part of the population with hate," <Justice Minister Pedro> Carreno said during a nationally televised address.

He did not provide details regarding the number of injured or if any suspects were arrested, saying only that angry students surrounding the building wanted to lynch those inside ...

Gunfire erupts after Venezuelan students protest against Chavez reforms; at least 8 injured
The Associated Press
Published: November 7, 2007
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/08/america/LA-GEN-Venezuela-Protest.php

[struggle4progress]

29. "... Venezuelan student protesters were fired on, resulting in two gun-shot injuries ...

Seven more victims suffered other injuries, according to university official. Local television station Globovision broadcast images of protesters running for cover during the incident on the campus of the Universidad Central de Venezuela. One image showed a man in a black leather jacket firing a pistol twice. Interior Minister Pedro Carreno said at 7:10 p.m. New York time that the situation was under control ...

Dr. Rodolfo Tapa, dean of the university's medical school, said in an interview with Globovision that two of the victims suffered gun-shot wounds. Others suffered respiration problems caused by tear-gas bombs, among other injuries, Dr. Fernando Alvarado, assistant director of the university's hospital, said on state television ...

Venezuela Students Shot After Anti-Chavez Protest (Update1)
By Matthew Walter and Steven Bodzin
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aQ983Gmv50Gs&refer=latin_america

[Bacchus39]

45. Five students wounded in the countryside in Venezuela

Five students and a reporter with daily newspaper El Impulso were wounded Wednesday during a peaceful demonstration university students staged in Barquisimeto, northwestern Lara state.

José Aguinaraldos, the dean of the Medicine School of Lisandro Alvarado University, said the police forced the students to change the route of their march and lead them to ambush, where hooded armed bikers were waiting for them.

Students accused Mayor Henri Falcón and governor Luis Reyes of the violence unleashed by government followers, who attacked the university students in front of the police.

http://english.eluniversal.com/2007/11/08/en_refco_art_five-students-wounde_08A1180891.shtml

[Clanfear]

51. That can't be true!!!

:sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

58. When it's debunked, will you be back to acknowledge that?

You need to consider 1) the Chavez government has never used these tactics before and 2) they have nothing to gain and everything to lose by using them now ahead of the vote.

It's not rocket science to figure out who is behind this cr@p.

[Bacchus39]

61. do you work for Chavez?

n/t

[redqueen]

63. ...

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

71. LOL! I wish!

[Clanfear]

65. How do you debunk this?

[redqueen]

68. The truth always outs.

Throughout history, there is a pattern.

[EFerrari]

75. Opposition Students Clash with Police in Effort to Get to Venezuela’s Electoral Council

What is "this"? Do you know what you're looking at?

Caracas, November 2, 2007 (venezuelanalysis.com) - Violent clashes took place yesterday between opposition students and the police when students tried to break police lines near Venezuela's National Electoral Council building. Students and members of opposition political parties had marched on the National Electoral Council (CNE) in Caracas to deliver a document calling for the referendum on President Hugo Chavez's constitutional reforms, scheduled for December 2, to be postponed.

As the march passed through the relatively poorer area of Parque Central, the protest was met with spontaneous cries from Chavez supporters of "Chavez is not going" and "They will not return" . Several thousand pro-Chavez students and supporters from the poorer neighbourhoods in Caracas also gathered at the CNE in a counter protest in support of the reforms.

Chanting "No to the reforms," the opposition students carried banners and placards openly calling for violence, as well as pictures of various CNE rectors, describing them as "traitors to the country."

When the opposition protest arrived at approximately 2pm, the CNE directors received a delegation from the students, giving them drinks and cake as they handed over their document. However, on leaving the student delegation attempted to chain themselves to stair well in the entrance of the building before being removed by the National Guard.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2796

[Bacchus39]

any "news" from yesterday's events from that Chavez propaganda site?

n/t

[EFerrari]

82. Did you read it? Has it ever occurred to you that each time

these stories come out in the corporate media, they turn out to be false?

Has this "propaganda" site ever been caught fabricating? Or, the VIO, for that matter?

I'll let you do the math.

[Clanfear]

84. That site is nothing but a mouthpiece for Chavez

Hardly credibile.

[Bacchus39]

85. as is sfexpat2000

n/t

[EFerrari]

93. No, I actually detest being lied to by the media more than any thing. n/t

[redqueen]

87. And the media we rely on have repeatedly demonstrated

that they are nothing but a mouthpiece for the CIA and the WH.

[EFerrari]

104. How would you back up such a statement?

Have you found them to be in error? I'd like to see that. Thanks.

[SpikeTss]

119. Let's debunk this:

- The first photo shows nothing, except police and what could be protesters.

- And thank you for the second photo, as it shows that protests in Venezuela can be compared to protests in France:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hughes_leglise/487780707/

[ronnie624]

121. Debunk what?

Photos of "student protesters" attacking the police?

What the hell are you talking about?

[cuke]

184. What is there to debunk?

In the first pic, people are throwing rocks at the police. In the 2nd, the police are using water cannons on the protesters.

What do you want debunked?

[EFerrari]

195. Here it is:

"Students accused Mayor Henri Falcón and governor Luis Reyes of the violence unleashed by government followers, who attacked the university students in front of the police."

In the next day or so, we'll find out that this did not happen and from a credible source. That's the way these stories always turn out. But by that time, people only remember the planted smear.

[redqueen]

219. I dunno... those that care about the truth will notice.

The rest... well... who knows what their motivations are.

[ronnie624]

120. He will not acknowledge it.

As per usual, he will scrupulously avoid posting in such a thread.

[Peace Patriot]

96. The "leftist president of Venezuela," "friend of Fidel Castro," who is accused by

"his critics" of being "increasingly authoritarian," surely must be gloating in his palace over the brilliant tactics of the Chavista police, mayor and governor in bushwhacking "university students" and allowing "government followers" to ...what? It doesn't say. Beat on them? No mention of what the injuries are, or how they were incurred.

Really, Bacchus39, do you believe articles like this? You just swallow them whole cloth? My questions: Did the "university students" take an unpermitted route, and the police "forced" them back onto the permitted route? Was the re-routing of the march REALLY an intentional ambush? WHO were the "hooded armed bikers"? How was this verified?

Again, when a corporate news monopoly publishes a self-serving news item like this--and a particularly bad one, in which the police, the mayor and the governor, who are being accused of a crime, and are given not one line of text to defend themselves--you don't feel suspicious that maybe this incident is being FALSELY portrayed, to serve corporate interests?

What possible gain could there be, for the Chavez government, or a pro-Chavez governor or mayor, in fostering or permitting such an incident? It makes no sense, politically. It is decidedly uncharacteristic of the Chavez government and its supporters. They are going to win the referendum, hands down, as they have all elections. The only people such an incident serves are Condoleeza Rice, Exxon-Mobile, and the rich oil elite in Venezuela.

Not to say people can't be stupid sometimes--or that leftists can't be ill intended, or can't commit crimes. But the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence is that it is the rightwingers who are violent and ill intended--not just in Venezuela, but throughout Latin America (not to mention here)--and that the leftwingers (the majority) in Venezuela have NO REASON to be violent, and every reason to be peaceful and to act vigorously to prevent just this kind of incident. Indeed, it is the goal of the vast Bolivarian movement to SHOW that peaceful, democratic change can occur, with no harm to anyone.

The facts are thin, in this article. The motives don't make sense. The accused are not represented. And it comes from a corporate news monopoly source.

Do you believe it, as written?

[Beerboy]

46. CNN?

There's a lot missing to this story, or it's 'artfully' spun.

[dipsydoodle]

48. What a load of

unmitigated shit.

This is yet another right wing stitch up same as the last one which is on film as being a spoof.

[EFerrari]

52. I expect these stories to go from twice a week to double that until

the vote.

[redqueen]

54. And the BBC also spread WH talking points after their attempted coup.

So this pap isn't just being fed to us, alone. Corporate propaganda is global.

[EFerrari]

78. No kidding. John Pilger ripped the BBC and it's "covrerage"

of Latin America the last I heard him speaking -- I think Amy aired it on DN!

[redqueen]

89. And yet still people seem to want to believe the official story ...

from the mouthpieces of the CIA and the WH.

Funny, that.

[Bacchus39]

55. I expect more Chavez intimidation and scare tactics too

n/t

[Beerboy]

74. Re:I expect more Chavez intimidation and scare tactics too

I expect more stories about Chavez intimidation and scare tactics too.

[EFerrari]

77. Bingo!

Stories that always turn out to be bullshit.

[rAVES]

79. Anyone who falls for this is (and I dont mind saying) an IDIOT

[Clanfear]

80. Chavez may deny right to protest

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2007/11/06/2003386483

Tuesday, Nov 06, 2007,

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said his government could deny permits for opposition-led protests because of violence during demonstrations against proposed constitutional amendments that would let him run for re-election indefinitely.

"The next time they announce one of these marches, we'll have to evaluate whether to grant permission," Chavez told thousands of supporters during a rally on Sunday in favor of the reforms.

The president's stern warning came in response to violence last week during street demonstrations by university students protesting the proposed constitutional overhaul. On Friday, two students were killed and four others were injured by gunfire during a protest outside a university in the western state of Zulia.

[EFerrari]

83. If you went around setting fires in DC and staging attacks

on government buildings while carrying signs that advocate violence, how long do you think you'd be allowed to march?

lol

[Bacchus39]

86. would you advocate shooting the protesters?

n/t

[EFerrari]

92. What a ridiculous question.

During the entire Chavez administration, the only shooting of protestors that has occurred so far was done by snipers hired or recruited by the oligarchy. This was filmed and spliced together to make it look like the opposite happened by the right wing media. When ALL the tape was shown, the fraud is obvious.

I'm going to start keeping track of these hit pieces between now and 12/02. I bet we get some whoppers.

[Clanfear]

90. The government supporters probably set the fires...

... to make the protestors look bad. What good what it do the protestors to start fires and incite violence? If I'm not mistaken the people who have been hurt are the anti-reform folks. So, if they are indeed inciting violence they aren't doing a very good job.

[EFerrari]

94. The government has nothing to gain from doing that.

The history is exactly the reverse of what you are proposing.

And yes, the Gucci protesters are in general pretty lame and yes, they were caught and photographed setting the fires. Go check out the Reuters slide show.

[EFerrari]

99. Here is a link to the video that shows the "opposition"

faking the shootings. It was films by foreign filmakers, Irish iirc.

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1118998166&fr=yfp-t-501

[Beerboy]

114. How is this different from America, USA?

You have to get a permit if you want to have a demonstration outside the State House here in Minnesota.
If organizers of demonstrators haven't cleared it w/ the government, they shouldn't whine about a beat-down.

[Bacchus39]

95. A fascinating account from Prensa Latina that should clear all this up

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={4EF92DCF-57D5-49F7-8FB0-4961C1A24C54}&language=EN

now that a reputable news source has reported on the events from yesterday, we are clear to move on to other topics.

Caracas, Nov 8 (Prensa Latina) "Yes" defenders in the constitutional reform project of Venezuela place dialogue as a main tool for discussion of differences on Thursday, to promote the initiative for changes.

Socialist businesspeople, students, legislators, aspirants and political forces members, favoring the project presented in mid August by President Hugo Chavez, are boosting efforts to inform all of Venezuelan society.

The most recent student protest from the opposition reached the Supreme Court of Justice without violence, and they allocated a document against the constitutional change.

However, destabilization attempts were sparked off in the Central University of Venezuela, when groups adverse to the government ambushed pro-Chavez students.

According to reports from the electoral commission, about 16 are for a "yes,"meanwhile, 19 diverse groups are for a "no."

A project to change the Constitution's 69 articles, to support the socialist transition process in the country, will be submitted to the popular will in the December consultation.


I saw no mention of any shooting, any quotes from the security ministry, and no pictures. we must assume therefore, that yesterday's events did not happen. In fact, the only disturbances were caused by those who attacked the pro-Chavez students.

[EFerrari]

97. Weren't these two different events?

One was on Nov2 and one was on Nov7 -- or, is that wrong?

[Bacchus39]

98. the dateline is Nov. 8th and they mention the march to the Supreme Court

its a little contradictory (imagine that!!!!) in that it states the march was peaceful but then says the opposition attacked pro-Chavez students. Wow, exactly opposite of what the international press and the Ven. press is reporting.

Without Prensa Latina and Venezanlysis, we really would be in the dark right now!!

[EFerrari]

100. The story in your OP didn't happen on the 8th -- unless you

are prescient. And, btw, have you read your own thread? The pro reform people are getting it both from the left and from the right.

edit: Prensa Latina doesn't give a date for the even which isn't very helpful.

[Bacchus39]

101. the date OP is Nov 7, on the Prensa Latina is Nov. 8th.

why not go ahead and click the link?

[EFerrari]

103. Prensa Latina article was published on the 8th but unless

it's a bad translation, it doesn't give a date for the event.

[Bacchus39]

106. right, and it is a bad translation

n/t

[EFerrari]

107. I'm not familiar with Prensa Latina as I read more quickly

in English and as a former translator, usually don't like the translations of others. lol

[Bacchus39]

108. its not mine

n/t

[EFerrari]

113. I didn't mean that you translated anything badly but that most

translations have problems.

[Bacchus39]

109. its not mine

n/t

[Bacchus39]

110. its not mine

n/t

[dipsydoodle]

116. There seems to be a difference between

going into Prensa Latina, and then translating it into pidgeon English, compared with using the English version : http://www.plenglish.com/Default.asp

Hope that helps. Personally I'm always more inclined to believe the Latin press agency that the liars.........lol. They're still showing SFA about this issue anyway.

One of the interesting things about posts like this is that there is a good response and naff all recommendations. :rofl:

[EFerrari]

102. Bloomberg stories on 11/2 & on 11/7 -- two different events

I haven't read them but here are the links:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aT9nRMh0JNQc

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aQ983Gmv50Gs

[Bacchus39]

111. yep, one could say the Universidad de Lara and the Universidad Central

are in different cities so it is quite likely that the events are separate.

[ronnie624]

127. You seem rather confused.

Perhaps you should take some time to read or re-read at least a portion of the news items and essays that have been posted during the last week or so regarding events in Venezuela. You wouldn't want to make an even bigger fool of yourself, would you?

[Flanker]

105. Because nobody knows what went on

Chavista students were held captive in the social studies building, nobody knows what went on, and the forces of pro-chaos are happy about that since the picture looks artificially grim to corporate media readers.

[EFerrari]

112. And by the time it gets sorted out, all people will remember

is that "Chavez shot at students" which is a distortion.

These are the same tactics BushCo uses against Democrats. Maybe that's why it pisses me off so much.

[Judi Lynn]

130. People need to be aware of how media is used by the U.S. as the path to destabilization.

This is a timeworn tradition, already proven successful starting with the Pinochet takeover engineered by Richard Nixon in the early 1970's. There's so much information coming forward now people can study on how this is accomplished.

Here's an easy description for corporate media feeders to grasp:

El Mercurio file, The
Columbia Journalism Review, Sep/Oct 2003 by Kornbluh, Peter
Secret Documents Shine New Light on How the CIA Used A Newspaper to Foment a Coup

September 11, a day of infamy in the U.S., is also a dark day in the history of Chile. This 9/11 marks the thirtieth anniversary of the coup that brought General Augusta Pinochet to power. Although former U.S. officials such as Henry Kissinger have insisted that Washington had no involvement in the military takeover, and was trying only to preserve democracy in Chile, CIA and White House records, analyzed here for the first time, show how the CIA used Chilean media to undermine the democratically elected government of Socialist Salvador Allende, an operation that "played a significant role in setting the stage for the military coup of 11 September 1973." From these documents emerges the story of the agency's main propaganda project - authorized at the highest level of the U.S. government - which relied upon Chile's leading newspaper, El Mercuric, and its well-connected owner, Agustin Edwards. In Chile, the aged Edwards remains an influential media power, and here in the U.S., covert action has again been unleashed and executive-branch secrecy is on the rise. The story behind 9/11/73 continues to echo.
(snip)

The ethics charges against Edwards are likely to receive a boost from a careful analysis of formerly secret U.S. documents that shed considerable new light on CIA covert media operations in Chile. Since 1975, when a special congressional committee chaired by Idaho Senator Frank Church issued its report, Covert Action in Chile: 1963-1973, it has been no secret that the CIA provided significant funding to El Mercurio, put reporters and editors on its payroll, and used the paper, in the committee's words, as "the most important channel for anti-Allende propaganda." But with the declassification of thousands of CIA and White House records at the end of the Clinton administration, the history of the "El Mercurio Project" emerges in far greater detail. Among the key revelations in the documents:

* Even before Allende was inaugurated as president of Chile, Edwards came to Washington and discussed with the CIA the "timing for possible military action" to prevent Allende from taking office.

* President Nixon directly authorized massive funding to the newspaper. The White House approved close to $2 million dollars - a significant sum when turned into Chilean currency on the black market.

* Secret CIA cables from mid-1973 identified El Mercurio as among the "most militant parts of the opposition" pushing for military intervention to overthrow Allende.

* In the aftermath of the coup, the CIA continued to covertly finance media operations in order to influence Chilean public opinion in favor of the new military regime, despite General Pinochet's brutal repression.

The documents provide the most comprehensive record to date of one of the CIA's most famous covert propaganda projects, one that in retrospect played a far greater role than previously understood in the run-up to Pinochet's dictatorship. And they shed new light on the willingness of Chile's leading newspaper - a paper often compared in prestige and importance within Chile to The New York Times in America - to collaborate in fomenting the coup.
(snip/...)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3613/is_200309/ai_n9294265

[EFerrari]

133. Doesn't this sound like a version of what the American right

and their corporate cronies did to Bill Clinton? I guess we should be grateful that they didn't kill him.

[Judi Lynn]

139. They disabled his effectiveness. They kneecapped him early on.

He never really had an even chance from the very first.

He's the only President I've ever known who had to both fight off the attacking hordes of right-wing attackers EVERY DAY of his Presidency, deal with an astonishing organized campaign to take him out of operation, while attempting to preserve some small corner of serenity from which to do his daily work for which he was elected.

Right-wingers are not interested in democracy, they have no intention of sharing responsibilities. If a leftist is elected, they will spend every waking moment attempting to destroy him.

Ugly, ugly people, and they are colossal, murderous liars, to boot.

[EFerrari]

144. I had two small kids AND was in grad school at the time but even I noticed

the studied disrespect President Clinton had to endure from Day 1 -- if not from Day - 1.

[Judi Lynn]

148. I think you're right: it started during the campaign!

He must have developed that grin as a way of coping with the mayhem going on around him.

As we've seen since then, they've intensified the hostilities on EVERY Democrat who seeks office now, with the exception of a few like Joe Lieberman.

What they did to Al Gore and to John Kerry defies understanding. This seems to be the permanent pattern from now on until they can finally succeed in the massive fascist takeover they crave and came close to having already with _Bush.

[Peace Patriot]

150. DUers, please note the CIA use of private media, documented in this report,

to DESTABILIZE a democratic country, prior to a rightwing military coup (and horrendous atrocities once it was in place), in the 1970s.

"From these documents emerges the story of the agency's (the CIA's) main propaganda project - authorized at the highest level of the U.S. government - which relied upon Chile's leading newspaper, El Mercurio, and its well-connected owner, Agustin Edwards."

---

"Edwards came to Washington and discussed with the CIA the "timing for possible military action" to prevent Allende from taking office.

---

"President Nixon directly authorized massive funding to the newspaper...close to $2 million dollars..."

---

"Secret CIA cables from mid-1973 identified El Mercurio as among the 'most militant parts of the opposition' pushing for military intervention to overthrow Allende."

---

These documents "shed new light on the willingness of Chile's leading newspaper - a paper often compared in prestige and importance within Chile to The New York Times in America - to collaborate in fomenting the coup."

-------------------------------------------

Now imagine a fascist government of the United State with far less oversight of its activities than the Nixon regime received, one with billions of dollars in unaccountable black budgets, toady congresses and a lapdog press; one that claims the "right" of the president to break any law he chooses--domestic spying, torturing prisoners, writing his own laws, invading other countries at will, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent people with no consequences--unleashed upon one of the greatest peoples' movements that has ever occurred in the western hemisphere, the Bolivarian Revolution--a movement that is challenging the U.S./corporate predator "right" to kill, torture and oppress the people of South America.

An unaccountable, highly secretive, Bushite government that has outed its own CIA WMD counter-proliferation network, and purged the CIA of anyone who believes that their job is to prevent war, not to promote it; purged it, and sent it backwards to the 1950s to 1970s era of instigated wars, assassinations, and the overthrow of democracies from the Middle East to South America to Africa and Southeast Asia. (Yup, Vietnam wanted to be democratic; Ho Chi Minh invited UN sponsored elections; and, nope, it never happened--guess why?) THAT era. Now with Bushite massive thievery behind it; and Blackwater mercenaries; and utter lawlessness.

Think what John Negroponte and Condoleeza Rice and Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld and David Addington and Paul Wolfowitz and John Bolton and Alberto Gonzales, and company, have been cooking up in South America, with your tax dollars, quite under the radar of the American people, and with the complicity of the corporate news monopolies and their DLC love children.

Think, also, of how they have failed! (--not for lack of trying!). And what this must be doing to create bad hair days in Washington DC.

Why doesn't the U.S. offer South Americans genuine economic partnership and support for democracy and its transparently, honestly achieved results?

Hm-m-m. Wonder why.

Why, instead, is it using USAID/NED funds (your tax dollars) to fund the rightwing minority in Venezuela (against Venezuelan law, by the way), and to pay Washington PR firms to promulgate false polls, instigate phony "riots," and support yet another rightwing military coup attempt, in coordination with Colombian rightwing paramilitary assassins--a December '06 plot that was recently exposed?

Wonder why.

Why, instead, is the Bush Junta (and its DLC support group) larding billions of U.S. tax dollars, in military aid for the neverending "war on drugs," on the WORST governments in Latin America--governments like that in Colombia, with direct ties to rightwing paramilitaries, who have been chainsawing union organizers and throwing their body parts into mass graves, and terrorizing poor peasant farmers and political leftists, torturing and killing thousands?

Evo Morales, the first indigenous president of Bolivia, and an ally of Hugo Chavez, has said, "We want partners, not bosses." This was in connection with his negotiations with foreign oil/gas corporations, for a fairer deal for Bolivia, but can be applied to the entire history of U.S./Latin American relations, and to current events.

"We want partners, not bosses." Wow, what a violent, gun-toting, leftist revolutionary, Fidel Castro-loving, dangerous, "international communist...oops...terrorist conspiracy" request! How dare they?

And these are just the tips of the iceberg--the little parts we can see--of what the Bush Junta has been doing in Latin America, to create civil chaos (as it has done in Iraq), to promote weapons trafficking (as it has done it Iraq), to legitimize torture and murder on behalf of the rich (as it is doing everywhere), and to destroy democracy and self-determination, and a fair shake for the poor, around the world, including--as we are finding out--here at home.

Our imaginations are probably inadequate to the task of what the Bush Junta has been up to, in Latin America. A hundred years from now we might start getting word of their secret documents, and horrifying activities. Shooting up rightwing students, to make it look like the leftist government is violent--or unstable--is no doubt the least of it. Complete control of the corporate newsstream is one weapon in their arsenal. They have many other less visible ones.

Pay particular attention to events in Bolivia and Ecuador, as well. In Bolivia, the rich landowners are trying to split the rural provinces--the ones with the oil, gas and other resources--off from the central government (headed by President Morales), in order to deny the benefit of the country's natural resources to the poor majority, and horde it to themselves and their corporate allies. There has already been trouble in those areas, instigated by rightwing thugs. In Ecuador, President Rafael Correa--another Bolivarian president--is going to kick the U.S. military base out of the country. (None of these leaders, or their supporters, favor the U.S. "war on drugs"--they see it as a war on the poor, as U.S. domination and an assault on their sovereignty, and as a bad influence. Wherever the "war on drugs" goes, the drugs and weapons traffic proliferates, and outrages against the poor abound.)

The U.S. history in Latin America is horrendous. Can there be any doubt that the Bush Junta wants to repeat it, and then some? With the U.S. economy collapsing under the massive maladministration of this Junta, the war on Iraq a failure, and China, Russia and others blocking an attack on Iran, where is this Junta, and its corporate predator puppetmasters, going to find oil for its "free trade" tanker traffic and for its war machine? Where is it going to find gas, minerals, forests and other resources, and slave labor for its sweatshops?

The Andes. Not that they will succeed. I don't think they will. But, with virtually unlimited funds at their disposal, no oversight, and a culture of lawlessness, mass murder, torture, blackmail, bribery and massive thievery rampant in Washington, can we have any doubt that they are trying every tactic imaginable--and some that are unimaginable--to overthrow the Andes democracies--just like their forerunners did in Chile, in Argentina, in Guatemala, in El Salvador, in Nicaragua, and throughout the southern hemisphere?

[dipsydoodle]

151. Link to "documents" is here

Revelations that President Richard Nixon had ordered the CIA to "make the economy scream" in Chile to "prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him," prompted a major scandal in the mid-1970s, and a major investigation by the U.S. Senate. Since the coup, however, few U.S. documents relating to Chile have been actually declassified- -until recently. Through Freedom of Information Act requests, and other avenues of declassification, the National Security Archive has been able to compile a collection of declassified records that shed light on events in Chile between 1970 and 1976.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

[Judi Lynn]

153. This is an excellent link! Anyone who pretends to know anything about Latin America shouldn't even

consider not learning what has happened there. It's pointless when they fly around in snits without having even the merest grasp of what the actual STATE is between these countries and those who would control them!

This is an interesting memo I spotted just in a quick rush to peek:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/ch05-01.htm

Creepy!

[countryjake]

155. Thanks for posting that!

You beat me to it! I had gone to the Security Archives earlier, as soon as I saw this topic, to show what probably really happened. It's the best place to search for proof to discount the claims of so many of these silly "believers" who doubt the power the USA has used, uses, and will continue to use, to prevent the downfall of its SuperPower status in the quest for empire.

This link is top on my list of bookmarks, as new stuff is declassified everyday:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/index.html

Problem is, much of the specifics of Operation Condor are still closely guarded secrets, as is most of our really nasty covert action throughout our short history. Also, the Freedom of Information rights are under serious attack by this current regime.

[BornagainDUer]

129. Who pipes you these stories Bakoo?

[superconnected]

125. Thank goodness no one was killed. Ewww firing on protestors.

I'm glad it turned out not to be the government ordering it.

[Peace Patriot]

126. www.venezuelanalysis.com is a good source of information about Venezuela

and the Bolivarian Revolution. It is sympathetic to the Bolivarian Revolution, but nevertheless publishes detailed news reports and well-written, fact-based opinion pieces, and is an invaluable source on what is really going on in Venezuela. And it publishes criticism of Chavez, for instance, on its front page today, the blast against the current Constitutional reforms issued by a former Chavez friend, General Raul Isaias Baduel, albeit in a balanced article which details the context of Baduel's remarks, and provides those whom he opposes the chance to counter them in attributed quotes. Another for instance: Noam Chomsky's criticism of Chavez's de-licensing of RCTV, in a wide-ranging interview (which includes his thoughts on if/when the revolution is going to happen here).

Baduel: http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2807
Chomsky: http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2659

And here is a thorough-going criticism of the Chavez government, published on Venezuela Analysis' front page (originally from In These Times):
"The Trial (And Errors) of Hugo Chavez"
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2572

If you want to understand Venezuela and the Bolivarian Revolution, START with Venezuela Analysis, THEN consult our war profiteering corporate news monopolies. That's the wisest order of study--because VA is so breathtakingly fact-based and penetrating, COMPARED TO the corporate news monopolies, in the context of VA's sympathies for the poor and for real democracy, and the corporate news monopolies are so incredibly bigoted AGAINST democracy, and AGAINST the poor, for such ill reasons--their intimate financial ties to the U.S. "military-industrial complex," to global corporate predator "free trade," and to World Bank/IMF loan sharks--and so often twist and distort the news, and DON'T REPORT facts.

Do you rely on Bolivarian-sympathetic facts and fact-based opinion, or on fascist/corporate illusions, disinformation and goddamned lies?

Is there no "objective" middle? Maybe there is. The corporate news monopolies have certainly been trading on the legend that there is, as they play the band music for our march off the fascist cliff, in the U.S.

Objectivity? Right. The bastards. (I'm talking to YOU, NYT!)

Whether there is any, theoretical or feasible, "objective" middle in news reporting and opinion, is not the issue, really. The issue is what we HAVE, currently available, as news and opinion, in trying to understand the world, and our own situation. And a corporate news establishment that keeps repeating the line of the Bush State Department, and of a fascist Catholic Cardinal of Venezuela, that Hugo Chavez is "increasingly authoritarian" (according to "his critics") WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT, and with considerable factual evidence to the contrary, is NOT to be trusted.

So you go to other sources. You try to find the truth. You find out how UN-reliable the corporate news monopolies are, and what propagandistic tools they are, and you begin to understand how they supply the plausible narrative for torturing, killing, robbing and oppressing billions of people who get in the way of corporate predator profits around the world.

You begin to understand the big black holes in their stories (what they DON'T report), their editorial choices (what they report on), their titling of articles, their framing, their choices of "experts" to quote, their sentence structure, and their use of hot button words ("the leftist president of Venezuela"--do they ever say "the rightwing president of United States"?; Chavez and his "self-styled socialist revolution"--self-styled? it didn't get voted on, repeatedly, by the people of Venezuela?; Chavez "friend of Fidel Castro"--do they ever say who his OTHER friends are? do they ever say "George Bush, friend of Prince Bandar"?)

Venezuela Analysis is a breath of fresh air, amidst all this corporate news POISON. So it favors the poor. So fucking what? Why shouldn't the poor receive favorable news coverage? Why shouldn't news reporters and commenters be on the side of the excluded, oppressed, brutalized, majority poor and their advocates and the governments they manage to elect?

The rich have ungodly money and power to control everything. Why shouldn't the poor have the press? Or at least have SOME press? And when they GET some press--a web site that reports sympathetically and in detail on their cause, and on their successful, peaceful, democratic political efforts in Venezuela--why do Chavez-bashers here at DU scorn it--while they fail to scorn the bigoted, lying, disinformatist, corporate news monopolies?

If you want to be educated and well-informed on this matter, read venezuelanalysis.com. Start there, and of course consult other sources as well. Read critically, in all cases. And if you DON'T want to be educated and well-informed, then continue to rely on the people who brought you the war on Iraq, "trade secret," Bushite corporate-controlled vote 'counting,' and a $10 trillion deficit, for your information about Venezuela.

[Judi Lynn]

152. On this subject, from the latest book concerning the deep stirring, the mass step away from

bondage, the coming to life in the New World, in the chapter "Kindred Spirits," on page 142, The Secret History of the American Empire, by John Perkins, author of Confessions of an Economic Hitman, discussing Evo Morales:

The mainstream press in the United States openly deceived its audiences.
In a campaign eerily reminiscent of the one launced against Guatemala's Arbenez before we invaded that country, the media conveyed the impression that Morales was a "Communist" and "agent of Castro."

Bechtel dropped its legal suit against Bolivia in January 2006, the month after Morales's election.

Less than four months later, on May 2, 2006, President Morales ordered the Bolivarian military to occupy oil and gas fields around the country and place them under state control. Giving corporate executivves 180 days to renogotiate existing contracts with the government, he proclaimed, "The looting by the foreign companies has ended." Rather than sharing profits in the ratio of roughtly 80 percent to foreign corporations, 20 percent to Bolivians, he demanded a reversal in those numbers.
(snip)

Never before had so many voters sent to the highest office at the same time leaders who so strongly defended the rights of their people against the moneyed interests of the United States. Never before had there been such unanimity. Never before such a show of support for the poorest of the poor-both urban and rural. Or for indigenous populations. Never had colonized countries delivered such a powerful and unanimous message to their colonizer.
(snip)

The newly elected presidents also began something completely unprecedented in the history of the hemisphere. They agreed to defend each other. United not by a single leader (as in the name of Bolivar, but through mutual consent, they expanded their stance against the IMF, the World Bank, and the U.S. government to include self-defense. Countries like Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Peru, and Venezuela led efforts to switch their military objectives from protecting multinational corporations to defending their countries against foreign intervention. And they began to seriously discuss the possiblity of extensive military cooperation.
(snip)

John Perkins should know, by God, since he spent so much of his working life working for the Empire!

It was great seeing things you've said all along, reinforced by what Mr. Perkins had to say!

(Edited to correct my typing errors, since I haven't learned how to scan and then paste in from books!)

[Peace Patriot]

131. I want to personally thank Bachus39 for prodding me to investigate and to

think about the "Chavez is a dictator" talking point, and other matters regarding the Bolivarian Revolution in South America. You remind me of my dear Bushite brother (now deceased) whose kneejerk rightwing opinions used to irritate me so much, I would read ten newspapers and twenty books to refute him. Keep it up, Bacchus39, and you will inspire all of North America to get better informed about events to the south, which may one day inspire us to liberate our own country from the Corporate Rulers and their vicious presidents, craven congress members and so-called journalists.

Rest in peace, Bro! Your spirit lives! (Really, I loved him a lot!)

[EFerrari]

135. I had a similar experience during the RCTV flap.

Every time someone raised a question, I had to go track down the answer. It was amazing how the astro turf turned out to be distorted at every point.

[BornagainDUer]

132. Protest leader gibberish

"Don't allow Venezuela to go down a path that nobody wants to cross," student leader Freddy Guevara told Globovision.

You going down the path or crossing it? :eyes:

I would really, really like to see this guys history on fighting for freedom. Also like to see who butters his buns...er, bread.

[EFerrari]

137. Let's try to figure out who Freddy is. My bet is that he wears

nice clothes, lives in a big house and has a lot of time on his smooth hands. :evilgrin:

[BornagainDUer]

138. Just thinking. These little spastic protests by the Right are actually

a good opportunity to track the players back to the perps. Once they are found to be seditionists working in the pay of a foreign power.....hee, hee.

Ok I got a little ahead of it here, but it sure is fun thinking about.

:hi:

[Judi Lynn]

140. It all follows a very recognizable pattern. It's been done over and over again!

Here's a look at the level of covert ops participation in Chile Richard Nixon arranged prior to his planned overthrow of the Chilean peoples' elected President, Salvador Allende:

A model operation - Covert action in Chile: 1963-1973
From Ralph McGehee
8 January 1999
United States ran covert actions in Chile between 1963 and 1973 leading to the ascension of General Pinochet. The U.S. Government's official report of this covert action said this operation epitomizes CIA covert actions (worldwide).
(snip)

From 1953 through 1970, the CIA subsidized wire services, magazines and a right-wing weekly newspaper. In the 1964 election, CIA supported the Christian Democratic (CD) candidate. (CIA support to CD candidates around the globe followed and preceded this operation). CIA funded an array of pro-Christian Democratic student, women's, professional and peasant groups and helped the CD party with polling, voter registration and get-out-the-vote drives.

In the 1964 Election -- the U.S. massively intervened in the election -- via fifteen covert action projects ranging from organizing slum dwellers, to passing funds to political parties. Specifically the Christian Democratic Party, the Democratic Front (a coalition of rightist parties), and a variety of propaganda and organizing activities. It also employed projects conducted since the 1950's among peasants, slum dwellers, organized labor, students and the media.

The CIA also conducted a massive anti-Communist propaganda campaign using the press, radio, films, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, direct mailings, paper streamers, and wall paintings. The Agency directed a scare campaign at women using images of Soviet tanks and Cuban firing squads. Christian Democratic organizations distributed hundreds of thousands of copies of a pastoral letter from Pope Pious XI. The CIA also concocted disinformation and black propaganda -- material attributed falsely to the Chilean Communist Party.

The propaganda campaign was enormous -- one group produced twenty radio spots a day in Santiago and on 44 provincial stations; twelve-minute news broadcasts five times daily on three Santiago stations and 24 provincial outlets, 26 weekly "commentary" programs, and distributed 300 posters daily. CIA rated this anti-Communist scare campaign as the deciding factor in the election of 1964 that enabled Eduardo Frei to win over Salvador Allende -- a liberal opposed by the CIA.

The Agency also ran an international propaganda campaign. It replayed contrived articles in and from abroad. These included endorsement of Frei by the sister of a Latin American leader, a "message from the women of Venezuela," and dire warnings about an Allende victory from various military governments in Latin America.

The CIA used some of the propaganda and polling mechanisms of 1964 repeatedly thereafter, in local, congressional and presidential campaigns.

COVERT ACTION 1964-1969
After its candidate Eduardo Frei was elected the CIA employed a number of covert operations with different sectors of society and ran twenty covert projects. It supported 22 candidates in the March 1965 election defeating 13 opposition candidates.

In the March 1969 congressional election ten of twelve supported candidates won. CIA also supported a splinter Socialist Party to attract votes away from Allende.

In this period the CIA ran covert operations to develop various sectors of Chilean society. One earlier project to strengthen Christian Democratic support among peasants and slum dwellers continued to help train and organize "anti-Communists" and other sectors until public exposure of CIA funding forced its termination. In the mid-1960's, the CIA supported an anti-Communist women's group active in Chilean political and intellectual life.
(snip/...)

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/42a/123.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They've done it so often it's second nature to them now.

As Latin America grows more unified, hopefully it's going to get harder and harder to pull this crap off successfully.

[BornagainDUer]

156. Damn, you is good on the research! Christopher Hitchens book

"The Trial of Henry KissASSinger" is a good read on this too. You have alot more of the mechanics of these operations down. :thumbsup:

[redqueen]

204. JudiLynn is one HELL of an asset to this forum.

:patriot:

[EFerrari]

208. Yes, she is.

:applause:

[EFerrari]

142. Yep. They're using their OWN KIDS, for pete's sake.

Right now, I'm trying to figure out if "Freddy" (nice name, kid) is related to Antonio Guevara Fernandez, one of the coup plotters - who did have a son in his teens in 2002. But, before I leap to conclusions, those must be common names.

Venezuelan security forces reveal phone-tap details in foiled conspiracy to assassinate President Hugo Chavez Frias

VHeadline.com reporter Vanessa C. Marcano writes: Venezuelan National Assembly (AN) deputies have told a Caracas press conference they have evidence of an attempt at electoral sabotage which was scheduled to take place in connection with last Sunday's elections.

Movimiento Quinta Republica (MVR) deputy Cilia Flores presented a series of recorded conversations allegedly including a group of retired military officials gathered together by Gustavo Diaz Vivas (Pedro Carmona Estanga’s personal body guard during the 2-day coup d'etat in April 2002), Oswaldo Suju Raffo, Antonio Guevara Fernandez and Carlos Gonzalez Caraballo.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=47344

I have a coupla emails out. And will keep looking as time allows. :)

[EFerrari]

141. Here he is protesting the expired license of RCTV:

MOVIMIENTO UNIVERSITARIO

• El Mundo destacó que a los objetivos de los universitarios de protestar a favor de la libertad de expresión y contra el cierre de RCTV, ahora se agrega uno nuevo: la búsqueda de un nuevo ciudadano como meta a largo plazo. Creemos que nuestro rol debe ir más allá de los objetivos que hemos defendido hasta ahora, dijo Freddy Guevara, presidente del Centro de Estudiantes de la escuela de comunicación social de la UCAB.

http://venezuelareal.zoomblog.com/archivo/2007/07/11/entorno-Vespertino-11-de-julio-de-2007.html

He is the student body president at a private school: "in the weeks before and after May 28, there have been a series of sometimes violent opposition street demonstrations, led by students from the prestigious private Catholic University of Andres Bello (UCAB) and other private institutions as well as the public Venezuelan Central University (UCV). The opposition mass media claims these demonstrations represent “the people”, and has portrayed the non-renewal of RCTV’s licence as a repressive measure against opposition voices by an increasingly “authoritarian” President Hugo Chavez."

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/713/37004

[Judi Lynn]

146. They probably picked him for his lack of any deep history, to serve as their go-to-guy.

As it's been revealed, the opposition knows it's going to have to choose completely new faces in the future, as there are such bad connotations connected to the familiar ones already.

There's not much out, yet, on this guy, in English. Found a small article:

Opposition-allied students attempt to chain themselves to CNE building

VHeadline.com News Editor, Patrick J. O'Donoghue writes: Scuffles broke out again yesterday when opposition students attempted to chain themselves to the gates of the National Elections Council (CNE) HQ in Caracas.

Things got violent when the police attempted to prevent the students from undertaking action.

Opposition students blame the police for the violence.
Andres Bello Catholic University (UCAB) student leader, Freddy Guevara and Central University of Venezuela (UCV) student union leader, Stalin Gonzalez have announced a new march on Wednesday, November 7 this time to the headquarters of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice (TSJ.).

The opposition students have rejected outright the constitutional reform.

When asked why the students wanted to chain themselves to the CNE surrounds, Guevara replies that they are tired of being treated as idiots and wanted to see some response from state quarters.

However, the leader did admit that there were outbreaks of violence on the part of some students during the demonstration.
(snip)

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=76664

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He sounds like a petulant ass, accostumed to stamping his tiny feet when angry.

[EFerrari]

171. And he admits that there was violence on the part of his contingent.

The longer this goes on, the more opportunities he has to blow it.

[Judi Lynn]

143. DU'ers with a trace of curiosity about how the U.S. uses foreign media to control public perception

will find this information, starting on page #4, concerning Richard Nixon's HUGE investment of our tax dollars in a large newspaper/radio/etc. group in Chile to seem strangely FAMILIAR, by now:

El Mercurio file, The
Columbia Journalism Review, Sep/Oct 2003 by Kornbluh, Peter
Secret Documents Shine New Light on How the CIA Used A Newspaper to Foment a Coup

~snip~
El Mercurio, according to the CIA argument advanced for this money, was "deemed essential" to help CIA-backed opposition candidates win the March 1973 congressional election - a major electoral test of Allende's popularity. In a proposal submitted by the new head of the Western Hemisphere division, Theodore Shackley, the CIA stated that the decision to continue funding "must be based . . . on a value judgment of the importance of attempting to ensure the paper's continued existence for political purposes." Now, as Kissinger aide William Jorden noted in a recently revealed secret White House "action" memorandum (marked "outside system" to prevent its distribution), the consensus was that "El Mercurio is important. It is a thorn in Allende's side. It does help give heart to the opposition forces." And if, in the end, the newspaper goes "down the drain," Jorden reminded Kissinger, "we have an excellent freedom of the press issue to use there and in the Hemisphere." On April 11, Kissinger's office approved the funds.

This would bring total CIA allocations for the paper to $1.95 million in less than seven months - some $8.4 million in today's dollars - and tens of millions of Chilean escudos on the black market. An additional undetermined amount flowed to El Mercurio through the CIA's main corporate collaborator in Chile - the ITT Corporation. A declassified May 15, 1972, memorandum of conversation between CIA officer Jonathan Hanke and ITT official Hal Hendrix recorded a discussion about $100,000 bank deposits ITT was secretly making to Agustin Edwards's company. Hendrix, as Hanke reported to his superiors, "told me money for the Edwards group went through a Swiss account."

BUILDING A COUP

How was this money used? "Assistance provided to El Mercurio has enabled that independent newspaper to survive as an effective spokesman for Chilean democracy and against the UP government," the CIA said in a Secret/Eyes Only memo to the 40 Committee. But leading the anti-Allende opposition was not the same as supporting the democratic process in Chile. Indeed, sustained by the covert funding, the Edwards media empire became one of the most prominent actors in the fall of Chilean democracy.
(snip)

But the activities of the Edwards media group went well beyond placing ads and publishing incendiary articles and anti-Allende editorials. With CIA backing, El Mercurio positioned itself as a bullhorn for organized agitation against the government, and as an ally of procoup forces inside the Chilean military on May 2, in one of the most damning cables written by the CIA station, the station chief cabled Langley headquarters on the activities of the political forces inside and outside the military pushing for Allende's overthrow. He identified the "El Mercurio chain of newspapers" as among "the most militant parts of the opposition" - other groups included the neofascist paramilitary group, Patria y Libertad, and the ultraconservative Partido Nacional, both of which had received agency funding - which "have set as their objective the creation of conflict and confrontation which will lead to some sort of military intervention." Each of these groups, the cable advised, "is trying to coordinate its efforts with members of the Armed Forces known to them who share this objective."

In June 1973, as social tensions rose dramatically and rumors of coup plotting circulated through Santiago, El Mercurio ran an editorial essentially calling for insurrection. Allende has ceased to be the constitutional president, the paper declared. On June 21, Allende invoked a libel law, passed under a previous administration, and ordered the newspaper closed for six days, but after only one day an appeals court ruled that the government had no standing to suspend the paper, and El Mercurio renewed its drumbeat of opposition and agitation.
(snip/...)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3613/is_200309/ai_n9294265/pg_1

[David__77]

145. Don't discount possibility of intelligence service sabatoge.

Lately I've been studying how intelligence services use student movements as a cover for their operations. For instance, the KGB fabricated a "student death" during protests that led to the collapse of the Czechoslovak government in 1989. It played a similar role in Romania and East Germany. The CIA is notorious for its provocations in the developing countries. Chile stands out as an example, as well as Indonesia with the murder of the generals that sparked off a massacre of hundreds of thousands of progressives.

The right-wing in Venezuela and its foreign controllers are hoping for violence. The left has no reason at all to engage in such activities, because it has political power in its hands.

[Judi Lynn]

147. Such a good point. It can't be stressed nearly often enough! They HAVE what they want, what they

need, and if the opposition can't prevent it, the reforms are most surely going to go through, which they want.

The only people who have a thing in the world to gain from conflict of any kind here and now are the opposition clowns.

[Judi Lynn]

149. New article from opposition newspaper: Interior Minister: A manslaughter was prevented

Caracas, Thursday November 08 , 2007

Interior Minister: A manslaughter was prevented

Minister of the Interior and Justice Pedro Carreño Wednesday rejected the violent incidents in the Central University of Venezuela (UCV) and warned that if Civil Protection had not intervened, a group of students who were posting banners supporting President Hugo Chávez's changes to the Constitution could have been killed by a mob.

According to Carreño, the crowd forced the pro-Chávez students to take shelter in the Social Work School at UCV.

The official urged the UCV authorities to take control of the institutions, considering that the State security bodies do not have access to the campus. Carreño asked the news media that, according to him, broadcast biased information aimed at igniting hatred among the Venezuelan people to act in a responsible manner.

"The society should settle their disagreements through democratic ways, rather than sponsoring uneasiness. In democracy, the decision of the majority must prevail."

http://english.eluniversal.com/2007/11/08/en_refco_art_interior-minister:-a_08A1181161.shtml

[Peace Patriot]

167. "In democracy, the decision of the majority must prevail."--Int. Minister Carreño

From the Vheadlines.com article posted by Judi Lynn (comment #146, above):

"The opposition students have rejected outright the constitutional reform."

I don't know if this sentence accurately reflects the opinion of rightwing student leaders or supporters (leaders and supporters might differ on this point, for instance), but it is certainly in accord with their other statements and with some of their behavior. And if the behavior of their elders is any guide, they really do not support or agree to democratically achieved decisions.

As I have pointed out before, Venezuelan elections are vastly superior to our own, as to transparency and fairness, and have been repeatedly certified as honest and aboveboard by numerous international election monitoring groups, including the Carter Center. So we really are looking at a situation in which decisions are being made democratically. And this being the case, there really is no other option, if you support democracy and the rule of law, but to acceded to majority rule. If the above statement accurately reflects the views of rightwing students, then they are "rejecting" the democratic process and the rule of law. The Constitutional reforms have been widely and heatedly discussed, for many months--and, indeed, some of them for years-- were voted on by the National Assembly, after much debate, and are now going to be voted on by the Venezuela people. And these students have already "rejected" them? "Oppose" is one thing; "reject" is another. That's why I'm being careful here, in not presuming that this is an accurate depiction of the rightwing students' views.

An essential principle of democracy is protection of minority rights--which is vitally necessary, if the best ideas, and the best leaders, are to arise from the general political ferment. It's not that the majority is always right. It's that acceding to majority rule--given transparent elections, protection of minority rights, and free expression--is the ONLY OPTION.

The only exception I can think of is civil disobedience on moral or other principled grounds, but that almost always occurs when somebody's rights are being trodden upon, and it is most valid, as a tactic in a democracy, if it is PEACEFUL, and if the dissenters accept the legal consequences of their actions--that is, openly disobey a law or government action that violates higher law--moral law, human rights. (Example: Fr. Dan Berrigan stealing military Draft records and pouring homemade napalm on them, during the Vietnam War, and then waiting for the FBI to arrest him, and going to jail for his beliefs. His action harmed no one, and was aimed at saving lives, and he did it openly.)

So, are the rightwing minority's rights being protected in Venezuela? Sure seems like it. They have many demonstrations. They are often in the streets. Also, rightwing news media has far more dominance and reach, in Venezuela, than any leftwing, neutral or government media (--and this remains true even with the denial of RCTV's license renewal). They have this big trumpet for their views--not to mention AP, Reuters, the Wall Street Journal, the NYT, and now even the BBC, helping to push their "talking points" and demeaning and slandering the Chavez government. The rightwing has money and resources (--and would have even without the money and resources that U.S. taxpayers unwittingly provide). That's a part of the "free speech" equation that is seldom discussed. If you're poor, you have less "free speech," just because of that. You just don't have the means--can't afford a broadcast license, or production facilities; can't even afford a computer and printer. Venezuela's rich elite does not have this handicap, as to expressing their views.

I've seen no reports of repression of "free speech" or of minority rights. Indeed, the Chavistas seem to go out of their way to insure rightwing free speech rights. (For instance, when rightwing students marched against the denial of RCTV's license, the Chavista-majority National Assembly invited them inside, to debate the matter before the National Assembly and the nation.) Denial of such rights would be good cause for civil disobedience. It's a "higher law" of democracy that minority rights MUST be protected, and it's usually codified into law as well. This does not give a minority the "right" to break others laws, however; it only puts justice on their side--sympathy, public opinion--if they break a lesser law in order to assert a human right.

"Higher law" is often difficult area to define. Say, the rightwing in Venezuela feels that holding an election violates their rights, because...well...because they are the minority. Sorry, it's hard for me to imagine what "higher law" they might be loyal to. But say they had a case, at least in their own minds. Okay, I can think of one thing that has really gotten under their skins--and that is Chavez running for a third term. (It got under the skins of the rightwing in the U.S., too, when FDR did it. Nothing more nightmarish to the rich, rightwing elite than an endless "New Deal" for the poor!)

Nope, I can't do it. I can't take these rightwing students seriously. All I'm trying to say is that if you have moral or ethical objections to a law or a government action, in a democracy, you either argue the matter in public until you win people over, or--if you can't do that, for some legitimate reason, and the moral or ethical violation is a deep one--you put your body on the line for it and take the consequences. If things are on the up and up, you don't try to prevent a vote! You don't try to disrupt the democratic process. And if they're NOT on the up and up, you have other work to do--basic work on democracy.

But things ARE on the up and up, in Venezuela--by every measure that I have been able to investigate. MOST people want Chavez to run for a third term, and MOST people support the other reforms as well--for instance, funding the local communal councils (for local projects--like building a school, putting in a road, etc.), and the vote about this is going to be an honest, transparent measure of the people's viewpoint, and is going to further empower Chavez to deepen his reforms.

And if the rightwing "rejects" the vote, what then? Do they all sit down in the road and sing, 'We will not be moved!"? If they do, and they get hauled off to jail, and tied up in court for months and years--as happens to the civilly disobedient in the U.S.--I can only respect them for it. If they are that passionate about it--and that honest--maybe they will be proved right, that Chavez is power mad. I don't see it, not even a little bit. But ANYONE can be tempted--and maybe a third term and the other reforms will cause him to succumb. But the alternative--their continuing to take Bushite/corporate money, and engage in dirty schemes against their rightful, democratic government--is the more likely scenario, sad to say. And I don't know what the end of that will be. Probably they will become marginalized, and lose out in the "new Venezuela," as South America becomes more and more democratic, and more committed to social justice. Very sad. What an opportunity for educated, privileged young people to help create something new--a country in which poverty and injustice are not tolerated! A country free of U.S. and global corporate predator domination! It's sad enough to see oldsters clinging to power and privilege with tooth and claw; it's tragic to see youngsters do it.

[Judi Lynn]

168. They've claimed Venezuelans need more time to reflect and study.

As you point out, the reforms have been seriously, and vigorously debated for a long, long time already. It's just a device to try to postpone the peoples' chance to put the reforms to work for them, that's ALL.

It's going to be tough sledding until December 2, as it looks as if the opposition has determined to throw everything it has into the fight against these vital reforms.

They need to learn a democracy DOES include the poor majority of the country.

[Bo]

154. ..and so it begins...absolute power corrupts absolutely

....meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[Snarkturian Clone]

157. Shame on you!!!

Didn't you know it was CIA agents disguised as student protesters versus CIA agents in police uniforms?

READ YOUR HISTORY OF VZ GODDAMMIT!!! The American government focuses on causing news snippets in other countries so that people in america can read a 4 paragraph article and say "Darn that Chavez!".


All of us should be on a mission to cross out every instance of the word "Jesus" in the Bible and replace it with "Hugo Chavez, the Illustrious One". Ex: "Hugo Chavez, the Illustrious One, wept." John 11:35.

Don't swallow the MSM black ops!!! They're trying to make you think about being interested in considering Chavez to be a dictator!!!
Don't be taken in!!!!

[BornagainDUer]

158. Nice bit of Psy-ops dude(ess). You need to work on the hyperbole factor a

little more. Oops, I forgot, propoganda is not for thinking people only idiots who need something to be emotional about. My bad.

[Snarkturian Clone]

159. It was just a joke

lighten up.

[BornagainDUer]

161. Well so was my comment.

Lighten up. }(

[Snarkturian Clone]

163. shit!!

:evilgrin: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hoisted by my own petard!!!!!

[countryjake]

162. Sounds like you may be the one being "taken in"...

Try reading the history of the USA:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/index.html

Seriously!

[Snarkturian Clone]

164. Sorry

I'm too busy pasting photos of Chavez's face onto pictures of Jesus.

[ronnie624]

180. No need to apologize or explain.

Judging by the content of your initial post, it was already apparent that you don't have time to read.

[redqueen]

192. It really does impress me how people can still breathe

while keeping their heads so firmly stuck up there.

:hi:

[ronnie624]

207. Perhaps the problem is caused by oxygen deprivation.

;-)

[Snarkturian Clone]

212. It impresses me that people can still worship a human being.

I'm not necessarily opposed to most of Chavez' work- however I take offense to people worshiping him as if he can do no wrong. Same with Sheehan.

Can't take a joke? Remove yourself from existence.

[Judi Lynn]

217. Provide a link to a post by someone worshipping Hugo Chavez. It would be helpful. n/t

[redqueen]

218. Who's worshipping him? And what's up with the suicide suggestion?

You're a real charmer, in addition to being so smart and witty!

For your information, I don't worship anyone. But nice attempt at a strawman (I say 'attempt' cause it was so weak and pathetic). :hi:

[Snarkturian Clone]

220. People who treat Chavez as infallible...

worship him.

[redqueen]

221. And that would be... whom?

Don't y'all ever get tired of strawmen?

[Snarkturian Clone]

222. you. NT

[redqueen]

223. What?

Where did you get that idea?

Honestly... to think that this is what constitutes "debate" to those who are so frightfully obsessed with CHAVEZ.

:rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

224. It doesn't add up, does it? "Obsessed" is the "right" word, all right!

Can't grasp what it is about Latin American leftist leaders that gets them foaming at the mouth. Sad.

[ronnie624]

225. Hugo Chavez represents change.

Dramatic change, that many fear more than death.

I'm ready for change. The survival of human civilization, and indeed our species, depends upon it.

[Naturyl]

230. LOL, that's pretty funny.

You have a good sense of humor. But it's still a propaganda job.

Hugo Chavez, the Illustrious One, has nothing to gain by shooting at protesters. :P

[BornagainDUer]

160. I was comparing this "freedom" protest to what is going on in Pakistan.

Now in that country we have an "ally" who has eviscerated the judiciary imprisoning ever body and their pet dog and we have Bush doing absofuckinglootly nothing and he will do nothing, yet we have this unrelenting campaign by this demented coke-snorting frat boy to destabilize Venezuela. By any measure what Chavez has done--even if you believe this propaganda pales in comparison to that of Mushy.

It's obvious what the diff is. Musharraf is the US's son-of-bitch; more precisely Bushieboys bitch. Chavez on the other hand is rogue warrior against imperialism.

I sense the tide turning against the fascists. FINALLY!

[Judi Lynn]

166. A Fedecameras poll which backfired:"Ugly" Chavez among Venezuela's sexiest men: poll

"Ugly" Chavez among Venezuela's sexiest men: poll
Thu 8 Nov 2007, 20:20 GMT

CARACAS (Reuters) - Hugo Chavez calls himself ugly and his looks earned him the nickname "Goofy" in the military, but the president's image is changing -- he is now considered one of Venezuela's sexiest men.

A poll said on Thursday the fifth-most desired man is Chavez, whose large nose, protruding lips, forehead mole and gap in his front teeth are easy fodder for caricature artists in a South American nation obsessed with beauty,

The poll was commissioned by Fedecamaras, Venezuela's principal business group that was for years openly hostile to Chavez and even helped install one of its leaders as de facto president during a brief 2002 coup against him.

The poll data came from a broader survey of consumer habits and preferences conducted by Venezuelan research group Keystone that consulted 14,123 people in 3,170 homes and included interviews with businesses and telephone surveys.

More:
http://africa.reuters.com/odd/news/usnN08180026.html

[Peace Patriot]

170. Next we'll find Dennis Kucinich is the sexiest man running for U.S. president!

I'll take that squirt for President any day! Go, little guy!

As for Chavez, I've noticed a resemblance to those ancient Olmec statues, which is not a pleasant association, but when he smiles, my God, the sky lights up. It really does. Could anyone with such a smile be a "dictator"? Hard to imagine.

The sexiest--or, should I say, most attractive--picture of politicians I ever saw, was the one in which Chavez, Morales and Correa are lined up, sitting together, at some Bolivian ceremony, each wearing a colorful, indigenous serape. They were relaxed, happy, smiling. They looked very..oh, huggable. But it was a remarkable picture on another level as well--these three, healthy, nut-brown faces belonged to the presidents of Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador! That alone is a revolution!

What I see in that photo is a brotherhood, some kind of pact to be the good guys. That photo helped me to evaluate the "Chavez is a dictator" accusation. Apart from all the research and investigation that gives it the lie, you look at that picture and you can sense... what is it? --the kind of internal controls on behavior that operate within a family, or other bonded group, or (at least in an ideal sense) a knighthood. Chavez will not be dictatorial BECAUSE there are these others, his brother over in Bolivia, his brother in Ecuador, and his brother in Argentina (who actually used that word; when the directive came down from the Bush Junta that South American leaders must "isolate" Hugo Chavez, Nestor Kirchner, president of Argentina, said, "But he is my brother!")

I don't want to make too much of the photo, because it's just a feeling kind of thing. If it weren't backed up by overwhelming factual evidence, I wouldn't mention it. I saw the photo AFTER I'd done a lot of research (--in fact, Judi Lynn, I believe you were the one who posted it at DU), and it confirmed what the research was telling me--that Hugo Chavez is not a "dictator" and, if he has any tendencies that way--as any politician who is that popular might well have--he keeps them in firm check, himself, and they are checked, also, by his friendships, and by the Venezuelan people and their absolutely passionate devotion to democratic, Constitutional government.

All three governments--with these nut-brown faces at the head of them--are engaged in Constitutional reform. The rightwing elite has been in charge for many decades--indeed, for centuries--and has held the keys to power in every agency, in every court system, in every legislature, over all the land, and in all areas of finance and business. It is very entrenched, very corrupt power. And it has to be addressed structurally, or else there will be only superficial reforms, and the moment the rightwing gains advantage again, back they will all go to rightwing dictatorship and all its horrors. People who think a third term for Chavez is such a terrible thing don't ever mention WHY the people of Venezuela would want him to run again. It's because they are aware of just how difficult their task is, to permanently reform their system, so that it never again permits the vast injustice and poverty of prior governments under U.S./corporate control. They may be risking a "dictator," but what THEY see is an FDR--a champion of the people, a reformer, who needs more time. And who are we to question their judgment?

And they probably see what I saw in that picture: a BROTHERHOOD of good intentions, with internal controls that reach across country borders, to the whole continent. TOGETHER, they can do the impossible--totally transform South American society for the better, democratically. One politician alone--even with great support among the people--might go astray. But this group of leaders, working together, will not let that happen, or, at least, their common purpose and friendships will work to prevent it.

Maybe I shouldn't apologize for my gut reaction to that photo. At some point, you do have to make a mostly emotional judgment of a leader--after all the policies and political issues are considered. Do you trust him? Will he keep his word? Is he (or she) in it primarily for power, personal aggrandizement or money? No politician is free of ambition, and many have mixed motives. They are all human beings. Are we looking at a mostly honest servant of the people, or at a shyster? That three-in-one photo helped me to make that judgment of Chavez. He is part of a GROUP. He is not alone. He is part of a MOVEMENT that involves millions. And he is rooted in that reality--the reality of the poor, the brown, the oppressed, who have produced these remarkable leaders--every one of them poor to begin with--to achieve social justice, at long last.

[Judi Lynn]

172. There were TONS of photos taken that day: Rafael Correa's inaguration

I hope to run across a site which had them all which I stumbled across, once. It was terrific!

Here are a couple, although I wouldn't expect to be able to grab the exact one you mentioned immediately. I'll be keeping my eyes out for a special one. These two seem very positive, on their own.

[EFerrari]

173. Those are so great!!

LOL!

[Peace Patriot]

179. Wonderful photos, Judi! And I found the one I was talking about on my computer,

but I don't know how to post it. It's in .jpg format. Can you instruct me?

[Judi Lynn]

181. Hi, I just looked in & saw your post, will be back later tonight to check, in case

it doesn't work properly for you.

If you saved your photo in your favorites, it should still have a URL which was on it originally. Point your mouse at the photo, right click, click "properties" which appears at the bottom of the list, then find "URL" or "address" in the box which appears, and copy it.

Paste it into your D.U. message box, and preview. It should show up.

Hope this will work. I'll check back later.

Meanwhile, there is a huge collection floating around somewhere of a ton of photos taken that day. Hope I run across it again. Definitely intend to keep track of it.

[Peace Patriot]

182. The famous photo!

From left, Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez, left, Ecuador's President -elect Rafael Correa and Bolivian President Evo Morales talk during a mass in Zumbahua, Ecuador, Sunday, Jan. 14, 2007. Correa will take office as Ecuador's president Monday. (AP Photo/Fernando Llano) (Fernando Llano - AP)

The AP article in which it appears (1/14/07):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/14/AR2007011400400.html

[Peace Patriot]

183. Thanks for the instruction, Judi! I had to go find the original thru Google, cuz I

hadn't save the photo correctly. (On a Mac, it's right click and "Copy image location"--which I discovered by following your instructions.) Luckily, I had saved the photo caption, with the photographer's name, which got me to an original image location. There many be other original locations. This photo seems small and too dark. But no time to find them now. Got go to bed.

Whew.

[Judi Lynn]

186. There it is! That's such a great one. Congrats! Three very fine faces!

All of them are surely entitled to wear the colors and clothing of native (South) American citizens.

Luckily for Latin America, the European conquerors weren't able to completely destroy the native populations to the degree it happened in the United States.

It IS beautiful, as you mentioned, seeing these strong, capable Native American faces taking their rightful places after so very, very long.

[Naturyl]

231. I like Chavez, but that one statement you made...

As for Chavez, I've noticed a resemblance to those ancient Olmec statues, which is not a pleasant association, but when he smiles, my God, the sky lights up. It really does. Could anyone with such a smile be a "dictator"? Hard to imagine.

Idi Amin, anyone?

[otherlander]

169. So the gunmen weren't caught?

:shrug:

[UTUSN]

174. Course not!1 Only Hugo's enemies get caught!1 n/t

[Judi Lynn]

175. Could you provide a link to information on Hugo's enemies getting caught?

You'd be doing DU'ers a real service.

As it has been pointed out earlier in this thread by another DU'er, there's actually no reason for the people who support the poor to go off on a tear. Everything they want and need is already being implemented, and the coming election will provide the votes they need to implement the needed reforms.

Why would they want to screw up the process? Please. Use your head sometime.

[UTUSN]

176. Oh, settle down now, Nanny-my-love!1 n/t

[SpikeTss]

178. When I read 'arguments' like this

Oh, settle down now, Nanny-my-love!1 n/t
Posted by UTUSN

then I know why I enjoy articles like this:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=45&ItemID=14228

Crisis in the Americas

A Page Out of Washington’s Propaganda Playbook on Venezuela

[dipsydoodle]

185. Well found

Thanks for that.

Yes - the "settle down" bit was just plain fucking rude.

[UTUSN]

189. Actually, there was evident affection in my reply to Judi Lynn, despite that she

slipped from her usual high road. So, "use your head for a change" was NOT rude? How about your foul language?


Again, like your cohort above, you prove my point about CHAVEZ supporters, or the majority of them here: Somebody ATTACKS CHAVEZ (not attacking DUers who are spouting opinions) and the CHAVEZ supporters ATTACK the dissenting poster.

There is AUTHORITARIANISM *both* in CHAVEZ *and* his supporters, who cannot STAND dissent or free speech.

[redqueen]

194. That "use your head for a change" was rude...but

can you not see how those of us who have to routinely deal with people who apparently see through WH lies about dems eat them up with a spoon when they're about Chavez might get a bit short with those who yuk it up about the situation down there?

I'm not saying what she did was right, but your first post was mocking and seeming to make light of these events. Whatever you think of CHAVEZ *and* his supporters, it seems reasonable to me to expect people to treat this as a serious issue -- the continuing US bullying of leftist govts in Latin America -- instead of treating it like a joke, and coming in and making posts making light of things.

One could reasonably interpret such behavior as intentionally provoking those who have to deal with the "less well-informed" among us, and that anyone acting in such a manner shouldn't really complain when someone gets testy with them.

For Christ's sake... do you really not see how much troll-like behavior comes out in these threads?

And you're demonizing anyone who argues against WH lies as authoritarians who can't stand free speech... there's a big fucking difference between free speech and spreading lies.

I don't know... IMO your outrage here seems pretty fuckin rich.

[UTUSN]

200. Thanks for responding civilly (mostly).

1) Embedded in your first paragraph is an oft-repeated assumption/allegation that those of us who dislike CHAVEZ are spouting talking points from the wingnuts or wherever. The other side of the coin, regarding the frustrations you cite about some CHAVEZ opponents, is how I (can't speak for others) with MY anti-authoritarian position invariably get smeared by some of your less civil pals. They plug in their own, "the usual" talking points and assumptions, facile and (in my case) wrong.

2) Since "mocking/making light of these events" and "treating it like a joke" was the farthest thing from my mind, I have zero idea how that impression got into YOUR mind. I can assure you that the closest I come to "mocking" is ruefulness at having to face what I see as blind following of CHAVEZ here.

3) Yes, I certainly *do* see the INVARIABLE troll like behavior, but I'm looking at it from the opposite side of your point of view.

4) The WH has NOTHING to do with what I think of CHAVEZ. I see him with MY eyes and hear him with MY ears and process what I see and hear with MY brain, and MY opinion is MY opinion whether your "side" likes it or not.

5) If you and I were at a watering hole and Shrub came on the t.v., I don't care WHAT he'd be saying, MY comment--withOUT pounds of documentation--would be, "That g.d., effing, traitorous, m.f.ing idiot!1" That's the context and level of my spouting off about CHAVEZ ---here. It's MY outrage and I'll be outraged if I want to, and it has nothing to do with "spreading lies."

And notice again that it is even you with your mostly civil response that spouts the f-word and aspersions of "not seeing" and "provoking" and questionable motivations aimed in my general direction.


More to the point, my dilemma here, going through this same firestorm time after time, is to decide what's-the-point of doing it repeatedly, as in the definition of mental illness (doing the same thing, that doesn't work, again and again). It goes for both sides.

So long till the next time.

[redqueen]

201. Responses.

1) Embedded in your first paragraph is an oft-repeated assumption/allegation that those of us who dislike CHAVEZ are spouting talking points from the wingnuts or wherever. The other side of the coin, regarding the frustrations you cite about some CHAVEZ opponents, is how I (can't speak for others) with MY anti-authoritarian position invariably get smeared by some of your less civil pals. They plug in their own, "the usual" talking points and assumptions, facile and (in my case) wrong.

It's not an assumption... look through the threads. You may not be doing it, but you'd be joking surely to pretend that you don't know what I'm talking about.

Also consider that when I say talking points I don't mean from the wingers, because the Dem establishment is as firmly opposed to the liberal revolution down there as the GOP is. So no, it's not "talking points from wingers or whatever", it's the talking points that are spewed in these M$M propaganda pieces. That so many anti-CHAVEZ obsessives are so willing to swallow the lies in these pieces without the slightest bit of critical thought, and back them up and repeat them simply cause they're in the M$M (as if that means much at all anymore)... well that's really not an opinion at all, is it? It's just how is.



2) Since "mocking/making light of these events" and "treating it like a joke" was the farthest thing from my mind, I have zero idea how that impression got into YOUR mind. I can assure you that the closest I come to "mocking" is ruefulness at having to face what I see as blind following of CHAVEZ here.

Seriously? Post 169 wasn't mocking? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3058424&mesg_id=3059911

Do you still have zero idea how I got that impression in MY mind? Also, why do you characterize those of us who oppose the spreading of WH lies about the Venezuelan govt and the people who overwhelmingly vote for those in office as doing nothing but "blind following"? IMO it's those who seem so willing to be lied to who are blind, not those of us who are trying to refute M$M / WH lies.


3) Yes, I certainly *do* see the INVARIABLE troll like behavior, but I'm looking at it from the opposite side of your point of view.

I don't think all shitty comments are equal. If you notice in these threads, one side does more actual sharing information and one side seems to resort far more often to just nothing but stupid mocking nonsense posts and ad hominem BS waste of bandwidth type posts. It's a matter of perspective yes, but there is an impossible-to-miss imbalance on the scale.


4) The WH has NOTHING to do with what I think of CHAVEZ. I see him with MY eyes and hear him with MY ears and process what I see and hear with MY brain, and MY opinion is MY opinion whether your "side" likes it or not.

Do you live there? You get your news from somewhere, and every major western media outlet from FOX to the Beeb is vomiting out WH lies about him.


5) If you and I were at a watering hole and Shrub came on the t.v., I don't care WHAT he'd be saying, MY comment--withOUT pounds of documentation--would be, "That g.d., effing, traitorous, m.f.ing idiot!1" That's the context and level of my spouting off about CHAVEZ ---here. It's MY outrage and I'll be outraged if I want to, and it has nothing to do with "spreading lies."

What if you are taking the role of a FOX viewer in this situation? I'm not saying you are, because I don't know... but if you are taking the anti-Venezuela M$M news stories' word as gospel, that's definitely the way I'd characterize that. FOX viewers would react just the same way to seeing whatever Dem on the screen... because they watch FOX.


And notice again that it is even you with your mostly civil response that spouts the f-word and aspersions of "not seeing" and "provoking" and questionable motivations aimed in my general direction.

You are shouting and screaming and denying your post in this thread was mocking or silly. You consider characterizing my use of the "f" word as "spouting" and call that different, do you?

And yes, making posts like you did in 169 can be considered "provoking".

Sorry, but maybe you should examine your behavior a little more closely before attacking others and pretending like both sides are equal. They're not. At all.


More to the point, my dilemma here, going through this same firestorm time after time, is to decide what's-the-point of doing it repeatedly, as in the definition of mental illness (doing the same thing, that doesn't work, again and again). It goes for both sides.

That only makes sense if you don't think there's any point. And if you think that's the case, then you can decide what to do. As for me, I've seen more than a couple posters start out buying the M$M's BS about Venezuela and realize they were being misinformed... so for me, debating Venezuela's situation is a worthwhile effort.

If you're not managing to make any converts to the not being able to tolerate seeing anything about CHAVEZ without going into fits, well maybe you ought to consider why that is.


Also, please stop making it about CHAVEZ (:eyes:) because it's not about CHAVEZ it's about the government in Venezuela and the people down there who are dealing with it. And they are dealing with it just fine, it seems to me. Better than we are here, that's for sure. The whore media isn't given a free pass to say whatever it wants down there. I'm not saying his solution to the problem was perfect, but at least he did something. I won't demonize blame him for trying to do something to control the rightwing corporate media in his country, however much I, personally don't like it. Making this all about CHAVEZ is overly simplistic.

[UTUSN]

210. Each one of your responses was "off" and continuing to be accusatory.

It's just not complicated with me. I've said it a thousand times in these threads, but you are looking for very complicated scenarios that just don't fit ME: I am, plain and simple, ANTI-AUTHORITARIAN and I see CHAVEZ as Big Brother. That is all. Until you finally BELIEVE me about me, you will be spinning your wheels.


It most definitely IS about CHAVEZ with me. And your twisting every one of my points to make the SAME old points about whether they are WH talking points or M$M talking points or WHOEVER THE HECK you can dream up's talking points---the real point is that somebody like me would NOT survive in CHAVEZ's nation, when he completes the prison and execution chambers he is building.


Really, there are some of us whom you CAN BELIEVE when we say something. I'm one of them.


Now, I'm going to check out your 2nd reply (below) and will probably respond, but "our thing"--this circular mismatch of yours and mine---is over, pointless, and ends here. Take your last word, and CHEERS!!1

[redqueen]

215. I'm not interested in the last word.

You're not saying anything, that's the whole point. You're saying what you think, but not why. See how that doesn't add up to much at all?

You sit there and ignore everything I said, characterizing it as "off" and accusatory... what am I accusing you of?

Ranting and railing about how evil Chavez is is not going to convince anyone of anything... so I can see how you'd give this up, thinking it's pointless... because that kind of "debate" is pointless indeed. (Those quotes don't constitute a personal slur, that was me showing that what you're doing is not debating.)


What's this about prison and execution chambers?


No matter... I see you're done... it's not pointless, though. Far from it. I learned a lot about you.

[EFerrari]

206. To stick my nose in for a minute

part of the problem here is that we all aren't looking at each other and so don't have the visual cues that would help us distinguish between mocking and playfulness or something else.

For my part, I think I'm going to post Venezuela threads in the Latin America forum from now on so I don't add to these pie fights that just seem to create bad feeling.

I am interested in what is happening in Venezuela. I don't know how it will turn out. While you and I disagree about the authoritarian issue, imo, the government needs to do more about crime, about corruption and also, about developing its leadership because Chavez won't live forever and because he is human. Maybe we agree on those issues, maybe we don't.

It would be nice to be able to just talk back and forth about what is happening in Latin America but maybe LBN is too contentious of a forum to do that in an interesting way.

[ronnie624]

226. "For my part, I think I'm going to post Venezuela threads...

"...in the Latin America forum from now on so I don't add to these pie fights that just seem to create bad feeling."

Please don't! My time is very limited, so I must stick with LBN, in order to catch a wide variety of important news items, including those relating to Venezuela.

I'll be good! I promise! :evilfrown:

[EFerrari]

196. Oh come on.

I guess we better tell these news outlets that these protests didn't happen then because that brutal authoritarian would never allow them. :)

[redqueen]

202. Did he force them into Free Speech Zones, like that authoritarian Clinton did?

[otherlander]

197. Wow...

I love how all of you people find my post significant enough to use as a forum for beating each other about the head, but none of you find it important enough to give me a fucking answer.

[EFerrari]

198. I haven't checked this morning. The stuff I've read earlier in the week

didn't say anyone was in custody, iirc.

[ronnie624]

199. Interesting.

Where you see "attacks", I see links to all sorts of interesting information and photos.

If you availed yourself of the information, and then posted commentary based on what you have read, perhaps you would be treated as though your opinion merited serious consideration. Ive never seen anything but drivel coming from Chavez 'critics'.

Sort of like the ridiculous claim that Chavez supporters on DU, are authoritarians who suppress free speech. What the hell does that even mean? Such a statement contains no logic whatever.

I will continue to await the day when a Chavez 'critic' posts a message that is worthy of anything but a sneer.

[Judi Lynn]

187. That's an outstanding article, Spike Tss. Otto Reich was drafted into service again, by Bush,

slid under the door into the State Department in his "recess appointment" triumph, when the Congress was on vacation, since _Bush was fully aware they would not approve his appointment of this criminal.

He was as instrumental during the run-up to the Venezuelan coup, as he has been in creating lies, distortions, misinformation to publish not only in American sources, but outside the country in other media, and reintroduced here as having originated in those countries. As crooked as a "man" can ever be.

Just another typical right-wing monster, good old Otto Reich, advocate of Orlando Bosch, bomber/mass murderer of 73 souls on board the Cubana airliner they destroyed mid-flight on October 6, 1973, killing men, women, teenagers, a fencing team, and medical students.





A National Security Archive
Electronic Briefing Book
Edited by
Thomas Blanton
March 2, 2001
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB40/

[UTUSN]

188. Since when did spouting opinions on an internet board require dissertation qualifications?

There is NOTHING in the pounds of printed matter "justifying" CHAVEZ's authoritarianism that can change my mind. And your personal slurs just prove what I say repeatedly about CHAVEZ supporters/defenders/whatever-you-call-yourselves.

[redqueen]

203. What personal slurs did they make?

:shrug:

[UTUSN]

211. My goodness, you claim to read other people's motivations and inner thoughts

----at least, mine and supposedly those who differ with you---

but you can't find the personal slurs in that other post?

The person I was replying-to put "arguments" in quotes and implied that such "arguments" (as my comment to Judi Lynn) were SO intellectually unworthy that it made them(?) appreciate something in the link in that post. (That was the personal slur.)


Let's go step by step. *I* never ever claimed that I was making an intellectual argument about CHAVEZ in my comment to Judi Lynn. As I said to YOU in the longer post (above), my comments about CHAVEZ are on the level of "Expletive-Shrub" (substituting CHAVEZ for Shrub). So right there you have a strawman argument that that poster made.


If you've read the longer post (above), this spinning around and around is over for me for now. Take your last word and enjoy!1

[redqueen]

214. So putting the word 'arguments' in quotes, to you, is a personal slur?

Are you serious?

FFS, it wasn't even an "argument" that he was labeling as such! It was yet another brilliant, non-substantive post.

[redqueen]

193. The tactics are so similar.

The US's interference in different countries in Latin America...

I don't know why so many seem to just not want to see it.

[Judi Lynn]

216. More on the guy who created the Venezuela propaganda for the Bush admin. from the first, Otto Reich:

April 18, 2002

Latin America's Dilemma:
The Propaganda of Otto Reich
By Tom Turnipseed

~snip~
Mr. Reich's propensity to pernicious propaganda has once again emerged from events surrounding the coup. According to the New York Times, Reich told congressional aides that the administration had received reports that "foreign paramilitary forces"-suspected to be Cuban-were involved in the bloody suppression of anti-Chavez demonstrators, in which at least 14 people were killed in Venezuela. Reich, a former U.S. Ambassador to Venezuela and lobbyist with ties to Mobil Oil in Venezuela, further told the Congressional staffers that Mr. Chavez had meddled with the historically independent state oil company, provided haven to Colombian guerillas, and bailed out Cuba with preferential rates on oil.

Reich is a right-wing Cuban-American obsessed with overthrowing Fidel Castro's regime and is also a big political supporter of President Bush's brother and Florida Governor Jeb Bush, who needs strong support from Cubans in Florida in his re-election bid this year. Reich, along with fellow Reagan administration cohorts, Elliott Abrams and John Negroponte, were discredited for their covert activities and false assertions when the United States intervened in Central America in the 1980's and '90s, but have been re-instated in prominent positions in the second Bush administration. They abhor Latin-American governments that are elected by the poor and working class people, like the Chavez government in Venezuela and the deposed Sandinista government in Nicaragua.
(snip)

On September 30, 1987 a Republican appointed comptroller general of the U.S. found that Reich had done things as director of the OPD that were "prohibited, covert propaganda activities, "beyond the range of acceptable agency public information activities...". The same report said Mr. Reich's operation violated "a restriction on the State Department's annual appropriations prohibiting the use of federal funds for publicity or propaganda purposes not authorized by Congress." Reich used the covert propaganda to demonize the democratically elected Sandinista government of Nicaragua and establish the Contras as fearless freedom fighters. The purpose was to make the U.S. public afraid enough of the Sandinistas to get Congress to fund the Contras directly. The Boland Amendment was passed by Congress in 1982 that prohibited U.S. funds from being used to overthrow the Nicaraguan government. Meanwhile, the Contras were being illegally armed by the Reagan administration via the Iran-Contra arms deal.

On the night of Reagan's re-election in 1984, Reich's office put out the news that "intelligence sources"revealed that Soviet MIG fighter jets were arriving in Nicaragua and Andrea Mitchell interrupted election night coverage on NBC to give the phony report. This resembles the Joseph Goebbel's fabrication that Polish troops had attacked German soldiers to give the Third Reich an excuse to launch the Nazi blitzkrieg into Poland to begin World War II in 1939. Other Reich prevarications given to media sources included: Nicaragua had been given chemical weapons by the Soviets, according to the Miami Herald; and leaders of the Sandinistas were involved in drug trafficking, according to Newsweek magazine.

In Latin American countries the United States has a history of doing business and siding with wealthy oligarchies of business, professional and military elites who tend to be lighter skinned people of European descent against the poor and working class composed mainly of darker skinned, indigenous people and those of African descent. The second Bush administration appears to be adhering to this tradition with gusto. With Otto Reich churning out the hate and fear, it is a safe bet to predict that President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela will be increasingly presented as the devil incarnate and his government as evil, anti-American terrorists. Mr. Reich will dish out the poisonous propaganda to every news source that covers the Bush administration's Latin American policy. Joseph Goebbels would be proud.
(snip/)

http://www.counterpunch.org/turnip0418.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bush replaced Reich with his protégé, Roger Noriega, when Otto Reich's temporary status expired and _Bush realized he would never be able to get the Senate to approve another nomination bid on Reich.



Roger Noriega, former Jesse Helms senior staffer, Mr. Latin America policy.

[otherlander]

177. The article says that the Guardsmen weren't allowed into the college

but they gathered outside of the campus.

So they left the campus (on motorcycle, aparently) and got past the Guardsmen? Had the National Guard surrounded the campus, or just "gathered" in some places?

The article doesn't say. It's not written very clearly.

[ronnie624]

205. The article doesn't mention the gunmen leaving the campus.

I think it is more likely that they simply ditched their bike on campus, and blended back in with the other students.

As was noted above, those in opposition to Chavez, have more to gain by inciting violence, than those who support him.

This incident was doubtless highly organized, with involvement from numerous students. They probably found little difficulty in hiding a motorcycle given their familiarity with their own campus as well as the fact that there were no security forces present to restrict their movements.

[otherlander]

209. I know they had their faces covered...

but in the motorcycle picture, you get a pretty good idea of what the one man with the sunglasses looks like. I don't know how he could walk around campus and not be recognized.

I don't think the Venezuelan gov. hired them to shoot at people. If they catches the gunmen and they're tried, found guilty, and sentenced to jail, it'll pretty much disprove that theory. The police not being allowed on campus might make that kind of difficult, though.

[Joanne98]

213. Boy what a nice picture. Looks kinda staged!

Their CIA agents. How many times are people going to fall for this stuff!
GOD BLESS HUGO CHAVEZ!

[Naturyl]

228. This smacks of propaganda.

Who knows, but I'm very skeptical. Pro-Chavez forces would be fools to do this. It seems more likely to be anti-Chavez people firing on their own supporters in order to discredit Chavez, especially when they know America will eat it up.

[galileo3000]

232. So your argument is that Chavez supporters are too smart to have done this?

I will try to stop laughing long enough to finish typing. Look I'm all for social justice, and I believe tht at Chavez may have some legitimate instances of innsurgency, but I'm not about to start bleating "four legs bad, two legs better." Conspiracy theorists are always looking for easy way out. Remember, even Gandhi had a temper and was prone to overreact. - Peace

[EFerrari]

234. The government didn't do it and this was propaganda. Link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x958

[Dave From Canada]

236. Terra, terra, terra! I mean CIA, CIA, CIA! I love how any type of protest against King Hugo, has

to be a product of the CIA. Because nobody in Venezuela could possibly be against Chavez? You Hugobots are getting more irrational by the day.

[EFerrari]

237. Thank you for adding substance to this discussion. n/t