Stray bullet hits boy taking piano lesson, paralyzing him

[RamboLiberal]

Source: CNN

Fifth-grader Christopher Rodriguez sat down Thursday at his piano for his weekly lesson, arched his fingers over the keys and began to play.

Across the street from Harmony Road Music School in north Oakland, California, Jared Adams, 24, allegedly raised his gun at a Chevron gas station attendant during a holdup and fired.

A bullet ripped through the walls of Christopher's classroom striking him in his side, piercing his kidney and spleen and lodging in his spine. The bullet barely missed the 10-year-old's heart.

He will likely be paralyzed for life from the waist down, doctors say.

"This is probably the worst thing that's ever happened to me in my life. I love my son greatly," the boy's father, Richard Rodriguez, said Friday at a news conference.


Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/14/boy.shot/index.html

---

Hate these fools who don't care where their bullets go. What a shame for this young boy.

[Kolesar]

1. I had a college classmate who was murdered by a gunman at the gas station where he worked

I didn't know him, he was in a different degree program in the same school.

[villager]

2. Now the two of you quit blaming guns! A thrown knife might've done the same thing!

n/t

[Critters2]

10. LOL!!! nt

[TCJ70]

33. I think there's a difference in what happened here...

...one person was choosing to kill someone, another was probably just being an idiot and shooting for no reason.

Both are equally stupid, but we have laws to handle stupid people with guns.

[villager]

38. apparently, those "laws" weren't enough to keep yet another child from being hit by gunfire

Go read the original article and see the quote from the boy's mother

[TCJ70]

39. You're right...

...and I'm all for greater background checks and other methods of keeping guns from dangerous people.

I'm not for removing guns completely from society because some people are stupid.

[villager]

41. well, then we're primarily in agreement. And yeah, sure, keep the hunting rifles.

I'll split the difference.

Here's the quote from his mother, btw:

Jennifer Rodriguez expressed gratitude for the public's support and lamented how "the energy of our planet is revved up to this degree where the combination of availability of firearms and lack of understanding of the consequences of using them is what we're seeing, and we're seeing more and more of it."

[SecularNATION]

130. On splitting the difference...

"keep the hunting rifles"

Firearms are used by law abiding citizens for more than just hunting. Target shooting and personal protection, for example. That's what I have mine for. I've never been hunting in my entire life. Thank you, but I'll keep ALL my weapons. I'm not giving them up because people like you think I should. And no, I'm not a Republican.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SecularNATION]

181. How so?

How so, zanne? Because I'm not a rabid anti-gun zealot, like yourself? Who is helping the Republicans more? People like me, or people like you, who have caused the Democrats to lose countless elections?

[rwenos]

3. Oakland . . .

The city of my birth . . . poor Oakland.

Poor kid, poor family, poor neighborhood, poor all of us.

Maybe somebody will eventually get serious about regulating handguns. It's not a penis thing. It's NOT.

[Demobrat]

5. Handguns will never be regulated as long as

the kids getting hit by stray bullets live in Oakland. Let a few little blonde girls up in Mill Valley take one between the eyes while they take their piano lessons and maybe....just maybe.....

[AZ Criminal JD]

8. Is that what you are hoping for? Sick.

[BreweryYardRat]

11. No, I don't think he's hoping for it, just making a very sad, very true point.

For all that we try to move beyond it, racism and classism is still a huge problem in our society.

[Ignis]

45. Nowhere did Demobrat wish ill upon anyone.

Get a grip and try reading the post before your knee jerks in feigned outrage.

:thumbsdown:

[AZ Criminal JD]

61. I can read "just maybe ... maybe"

That is hope.

[Ignis]

67. You're projecting, and arguing against a strawman.

Demobrat said that phrase you quoted in reference to changing the consciousness of America away from a selfish, consumerist lifestyle, not about wishing for anyone to suffer hardship.

Demobrat also clearly explains his/herself downstream, but you seem to think that your telepathy is more accurate than his/her explanation.

I'm just not buying your outrage. Sorry.

[Demobrat]

47. No it's not what I'm hoping for.

I work in Oakland and spend most of my waking hours here. I wouldn't wish this carnage on anybody. But I stand by what I said. If little white babies up in Marin were being slaughtered on a daily
basis by stray bullets you'd better believe handguns would be banned.

[AZ Criminal JD]

62. You blame guns -- inanimate objects

Instead of the people who fire them. I don't know what is sicker -- your first post or this one.

[Xenotime]

70. It wouldn't have happened if the gun was outlawed in ther first place..

See how this works?

[Pavulon]

71. Loke coke, hookers, and (at one time)

oral sex. All illegal. BANNED by the gummit.

That is going great. Lets ban more stuff.

[LanternWaste]

103. Ban murder?

Ban murder? Ban rape? Good idea or not... :shrug:

Maybe there are additional qualifiers in your argument, but you may have erroneously left them out.

[Demobrat]

92. It never would have happened

if the gun had never been manufactured in the first place. But we all know what really matters in this country. Profits before people. Especially poor people.

[krispos42]

98. So, how many decades would it take to disarm the population?

The law-abiding would turn theirs in first, the career crminals last.

How much would the homicide rate spike as criminals preyed on the disarmed populace until the entire population was finally disarmed?

How many Constitutional amendments and provisions would you be willing to push aside to disarm the population?

How many fascist, BushCo tactics would you be willing to adopt to achieve your goal?

And when it was all said and done... would things be any better?

[Demobrat]

114. Sorry you live in fear of career criminals.

I guess 24/7 fear-mongering does work on some people.

[krispos42]

173. Excellent non-answers

Way to stand by your covictions.

And you're not worried about career criminals? Especially when you consider that the vast majority of crimes (including murder) are performed by the same small core of career criminals? You know, the ones that get busted over and over and over again?

Putting career criminals in jail goes far to lowering the crime rate, making everybody safer. Guess you don't worry about making everybody safer, though.

[krispos42]

93. Because that works so well with other things?

How fast could you get child porn, pot, cocaine, crack, heroin, or crystal meth? All 'banned' things. An hour? Before darkfall? By this time tomorrow?



What percentage of murders committed with guns would instead be committed with non-gun weapons?



Is such a goal Constitutional?



Would such a goal reduce or increase opverall crime and homicide rates, or would it reduce gun crime and gun homicide rates?





It's easy to pass a law and 'ban' something. Reality is a lot harder on bans.

[frog92969]

13. The kind of regulation

that takes my guns away and lets all the Jared Adams' run around with theirs which are mostly illegal in the first place.

No Thanks

[zanne]

27. WAAAAAH!

Don't take my toys! Don't take my toys! :cry:

[frog92969]

35. If you think they're toys then I'm glad you don't want one.

OF HOLOCAUSTS AND GUN CONTROL

"The question of genocide is one of manifest importance in the closing years of a century that has been extraordinary for the quality and quantity of its bloodshed. As Elie Wiesel has rightly pointed out, "This century is the most violent in recorded history. Never have so many people participated in the killing of so many people."<2> Recent events in the former Yugoslavia, Rwanda, and many other parts of the world make it clear that the book has not yet been closed on the evil of official mass murder. Contemporary scholars have little explored the preconditions of genocide. Still less have they asked whether a society's weapons policy might be one of the institutional arrangements that contributes to the probability of its government engaging in some of the more extreme varieties of outrage. Though it is a long step between being disarmed and being murdered--one does not usually lead to the other--but it is nevertheless an arresting reality that not one of the principal genocides of the twentieth century, and there have been dozens, has been inflicted on a population that was armed."

http://ls.wustl.edu/WULQ/75-3/753-4.html

[zanne]

42. Oh please--don't get hysterical.

That's the weakest argument for relaxing already loose gun control laws I've ever heard of. Another Holocaust! Buy more guns! Pathetic.

[bean fidhleir]

52. Gandhiji deplored the disarmament of the Indian people.

He considered it a very clever but despicable move by the British. The net effect was to make the people so inactive and hopeless that "passive resistance" was the most Gandhi could get them to do.

[zanne]

87. How long have you been collecting talking points for gun enthusiasts?

You guys have alot of them. It must take alot of right-wing talk shows and websites to come up with them, and alot of time. Your statistics just kill me, too. Start a gun vs. anti-gun debate in this country, and the gun nuts always have their "statistics" memorized and ready to go. It's kind of a religion with you, isn't it?

[krispos42]

95. Thanks to people like you...

In order to have a gun for whatever reason, we also have to become experts on the Constitution and crime statistics.



Tell me, do you have examples of, say, man's brutality towards woman memorized or bookmarked? Stats on disparity between pay for the two sexes? Do certain "sexist" terms in posts or in real life set you off?

[zanne]

115. Um...Are you really trying to play the gender card?

I mean, really? I'm so sorry you're oppressed. Why don't you just go shoot somebody?

[Tejas]

160. No, he's trying to get you off the troll-wagon

With quips like this, you would qualify as the driver : "Why don't you just go shoot somebody?"



Then again, since you show no knowledge or even remote links to any facts or figures......

[krispos42]

171. Your feminism is under attack

You are a woman, if I recall correctly. As such, there is a very active and politically powerful movement out there to deny you rights and exert social pressures on you.

Do you have bookmarks relating to, say, the latest attempt in some state or another to make it harder to have an abortion? How about instances of sexism? Objectification of women? Is there anybody on your 'ignore' list because of misygonist statements? How often are you irked because a guy talked down to you about things like cars and electronics because "you're a girl"? How many stories of abused female friends or family members can you recite off the top of your head?

And why, pray tell, would I shoot somebody? Because I choose to own guns? A little prejudices, perhaps? Making some assumptions about my temperment? Do you really think that I'm a stolen parking space away from climbing a clock tower with a rifle and expressing my displeasure?

Puh-lease.

[zanne]

178. Everybody is a stolen parking place away from snapping....

I know you like to think highly of yourself and your fellow gun-toters, but the fact is, human nature and guns DON'T GO TOGETHER. We see it every day in the papers and on the news; "Man kills wife, family, then self". Does that sound even vaguely familiar to you? Do you think that people who lose it like that weren't law-abiding citizens when they bought their guns. You're in denial of psychology and human nature. Take a course.(or two)

[krispos42]

180. What is your answer to my question?

Give me some honest numbers, or at least some honest estimations.

[bean fidhleir]

110. Do you think that kind of dishonest ad-hominem attack will get you anywhere?

Gandhiji did IN FACT deplore the disarmament. Alinsky quotes from Gandhi's autobiography: "spiritually, compulsory disarmament has made us unmanly, and the presence of an alien army of occupation, employed with deadly effect to crush in us the spirit of resistance, has made us think we cannot look after ourselves or put up a defence against foreign aggression, or even defend our homes and families....".

I'd like an apology, please.

[krispos42]

94. Amazing

You denigrate the right to keep and bear arms in the exact same way Alberto Gonzales does habeas corpus, the way Bush treats the First, Fourth, and Fifth Amendemnts, and for the same reason...

"If it saves one life..."





"toys"



Only non-shooters and idiots think guns are toys.

[zanne]

How about my right to safety?

Guns are the #1 choice of weapons for criminals in this country. I don't think you're for the Bill or Rights; I think you're for YOUR rights, not OURS. I should have a right, under the consitution, to be safe and secure in my home and in my person. I don't, because YOU have a right to have as many stupid ass guns as you want. Upholding the constitution, my ass.

[benEzra]

128. You do indeed have a right not to be threatened, assaulted, shot, etc.

If anyone does or threatens to do those things, they can and should be arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I also have the right not to have my life endangered by a drunk driver. My rights do not, however, extend to outlawing alcohol, only the misuse thereof.

(And yes, my wife and I had a very close call with a DD once.)

[krispos42]

170. Gun control does not equal crime control

Disarming the general public makes it MORE likely you will be attacked in your home, not less.

And I want you to be safe in your home. I want to be safe in my home. That is part of the reason I'm a Democrat instead of a Republican. Their policies create poverty and crime.

In fact, there are laws that punish those that violate your home and your person. There are laws that protect you from legal and financial trouble if you are forced to defend yourself. And there is a police force that will protect your community (if not you specifically) by responding to crimes and arresting the criminals.

But I will note that, again, you are arguing like the Republicans. "We want you to be safe in your homes, so we're going to listen, record, analyse, and archive all of your telephone calls and financial data. For the children!"

You know that such excuses by BushCo do nothing to make us safer, and it is just a power-grabbing intimidation and control exercise. So why do you believe that disarming honest people will somehow reduce crime?

[zanne]

116. dupe

[NickB79]

159. My "toy" saved my family's life

Thank you for your compassion, though.

[krispos42]

91. It's California. Handguns, and concealed-carry permits...

are already pretty regulated.

Unfortunately, such laws affect the law-abiding first and foremost, and the law-breaking last and least.

I doubt the killer could have either legally bought or legally carried a handgun.

[pipoman]

97. Right you are...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20080115-0503-ca-brf-bay-boyshot-charges.html

5:03 a.m. January 15, 2008

OAKLAND – The man who allegedly fired the shot that hit and left an Oakland boy paralyzed is facing the possibility of life in prison after being charged with attempted murder.

Jared Adams was also charged Monday with robbery, evading police and being a felon in possession of a gun.

[bean fidhleir]

21. How about regulating economic opportunities instead?

How many people with money go around sticking up gas stations?

[Demobrat]

50. So what happened to that kid

(and happens here on a daily basis) is acceptable because the shooter was poor?

[bean fidhleir]

51. How on earth did you get that from what I wrote???

Of course the poverty doesn't excuse the shooting. But it might very well explain it.

When people say "get rid of the guns", they're in effect saying that it's okay for certain people to end up poor and desperate. Their only concern is that it shouldn't have any effects on the rest of us. Those who are poor and desperate should go off in a corner somewhere and die quietly, not endanger innocent, worthy people.

[Demobrat]

54. Those who are poor and desperate

are more than welcome to blow one another away with impunity, as long as it doesn't effect the rest of us. And why not? The net result is fewer poor people, gun company profits are left unaffected and everybody's happy. Except of course the 10-year-old left paralyzed. But he'll be off the front page by tomorrow. So no problem.

[Irreverend IX]

28. Odds are very good the shooter did not own the gun legally...

Most violent offenders have prior felony records that prohibit them from legally purchasing weapons, and even if the gun was legally owned, it's almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit in Oakland, so he certainly wasn't carrying it legally. The point is that gun laws do nothing to dissuade criminals from getting weapons -- if they did, Chicago and Washington, DC would be crime-free utopias.

And can't you come up with a more original put-down than HURR HURR GUN OWNER HAVE SMALL PENIS? Anyway, the one thing that could put a dent in these crime rates is drug legalization, but no politician has the courage to propose it.

[zanne]

43. WTH is the difference?

If the gun is in circulation, it originally came from a legal source. Somebody bought the gun legally before it was stolen, lent out, etc. That argument never made any sense, and it makes less sense now than ever.

[Tejas]

80. The difference is very simple

As Nabeshin plainly pointed out, the badguy was exactly that, a badguy. Your in-depth technical study of the gun's origin is moot, the badguy is still the root core of the problem.

[zanne]

88. Anybody with a gun can become a "bad guy" in a minute's time...

How many muder-suicides by gun are there in this country? How many men or women shoot their spouse/kids, then turn the gun on themselves? Anybody can snap, even ordianry people who have guns legally. They snap all the time. (If you have access to the news, you know that.) You can't tell me all these people got their guns illegally. The gun is a DANGEROUS tool in a household, because anybody, and I mean anybody, can lose it completely. The thing that pisses me off most about those creeps is that they turn the guns on themselves afterwards, avoiding the consequences. And please, spare me your "statistics". We all know it happens regularly.

[Tejas]

158. You tell me

Hint:

115-120 traffic deaths per day

75-80 firearm deaths per day

55-60 other-weapons deaths per day



Suicides?

Care to shed light on the reason Japan has almost twice the suicide rate of the US.....even though guns are virtualy non-existant there?

[krispos42]

96. Yet it shows that your "gun ban law" idea would also be ineffective

Remember, gun bans affect the honest and law-abiding first and foremost, and the career criminals last and least.

[zanne]

137. That's not true.

Especially in domestic violence cases, or where people just "snap", most of the guns are obtained legally. A gun is alot easier to use than a knife or one's hands because it can be used at a distance, without getting one's hands "dirty". No. This country is not advanced enough as a civilization to allow guns in anybody's hands, legal or not. We read it in the papers every day. We're not ready.

[krispos42]

172. Those two cases are a small minority of homicides.

Yeah, if draconian gun-control measures were instituted the small number of "heat of passion" killings might drop to a somewhat smaller number. But violent criminals, human predators, would become more aggressive. There would be more home invasions, more muggings, more robberies. Because they are used to fighting and violence and are ruthless, they have a distinct advantage over more "civilized" law-abiding people, who are often inexperienced in unarmed combat and lack the predator mentality. To them, brutality become routine, with little danger of being stopped by their victims. And since a certain percentage of muggings and home invasions will result in a murder, the more of them you have the more homicides you have.

They are seeing this in the UK. Complete, retroactive ban on "assault weapons" in 1989, and the same thing on handguns in 1998. No grandfathered guns. Out and out ban.

And yet, it keeps creeping up and up. And those 4 million police-monitored public-area security cameras they've installed don't seem to be helping, either.

[KamaAina]

131. DING DING DING!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/15/BAI7UEJE4.DTL

Adams, who has a history of fleeing from or resisting police, was charged Monday with attempted murder, robbery, evading police and being a felon in possession of a gun. His girlfriend, Maeve Clifford, 19, was charged with robbery and assault with a deadly weapon.

Then again, if there weren't so many guns around, it wouldn't be so easy for felons to get them...

[KamaAina]

129. It wasn't even in a particularly rough part of town

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/15/BAI7UEJE4.DTL

One of the bullets allegedly fired by Jared Adams, 24, struck Christopher Rodriguez and left him paralyzed from the waist down.

Christopher, a fifth-grader at Crocker Highlands Elementary School in Oakland, was at a piano lesson about 4:30 p.m Thursday at the Harmony Road Music School at Pleasant Valley and Piedmont avenues when Adams allegedly fired shots at a gas-station employee who was trying to call police after being robbed across the street, authorities said.

That's only a few blocks from the exclusive (and lily-white, with an Asian admixture) enclave of Piedmont (like Beverly Hills, a separate city). Hell, my old neighborhood (around 35th and Foothill) was worse than that.

Californians also note:

A trust fund has been established for Christopher. Donations for the boy's care can be made to any Wells Fargo bank, account number 7013202606.

edit: link

[NoBorders]

183. self delete

[Crunchy Frog]

4. Gotta love that second ammendment.

[AZ Criminal JD]

7. The Second Amendment does not protect people

Spraying bullets around. Read it sometime.

[Kolesar]

20. The 2nd amendment is going to be "finally decided" by the bush Supreme Court this term

They took a case and may "rule" that we are an armed nation.

[zanne]

25. "May" rule that we are an armed nation?

With this Supreme Court, you can bet on it.

[-..__...]

30. I would hope they "rule" that way...

but I wouldn't count on it...

U.S. supports gun rights, but more narrowly
Friday, January 11th, 2008 10:19 pm

The Bush Administration urged the Supreme Court Friday night to rule that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to have a gun for private use, but argued that the D.C. Circuit Court went too far in applying that personal right view. The appeals court, the new brief said, seems to have adopted a “more categorical approach” to gun control laws than is proper.

In a move designed at least in part to protect federal gun laws from being struck down, the new brief urged the Justices to uphold an individual right to a gun and adopt a flexible standard for judging specific laws, and then return the pending test case from the District of Columbia back to the Circuit Court for another look. Tellingly, the government’s friend-of-court brief was not labeled as a supporting brief for either side in the case of District of Columbia v. Heller (07-290).

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/

[-..__...]

19. Gottta love the entire Bill of Rights.

and not just pick and choose the ones which satisfy peoples narrow minded, politically correct vision for America.
(Your witty comment that "Gotta love that second ammendment" is :sarcasm:, correct?)

Sure, it's not 100% perfect. After all... does it allow low-life shit-stains like the one that pulled the trigger to roam the streets
when they should have remained in prison due to a previous round of felonies.

[Crunchy Frog]

44. Yeah.

Deeply unfortunate about the kid, but hey, it's just the price we pay for our freedom. If a few people have to be sacrificed here and there, it's still worth it. :shrug:

[Tejas]

78. You got it

Much easier to sit at a keyboard and whine about OH TEH NOES!!1!1!!!! GUNS!!!1!1!!! instead of lazy judges, inept prosecutors, useless sentencing guidelines, worthless feel-good social programs etc etc.

[LanternWaste]

104. Really? Which useless social programs that make you feel good are you referring to

"worthless feel-good social programs etc etc."

Really? Which useless social programs that make you feel good are you referring to? Head Start? AFDC? County Hospitals?

Hoo boy...

[michreject]

37. I love them all equally......nt

[GoddessOfGuinness]

6. Hearing about things like this

makes me ache for that boy and his parents. :cry:

[fujiyama]

9. What kind of country is this?

With this sort of mindless violence going on in our cities, can we really call ourselves a civilized society?

[PSPS]

12. It fits perfectly with BushCo culture

Think of all the things the bush culture has brought us:

• Televised beheadings
  
• Prisoners in our care being gleefully tortured and beaten to death
  
• "The chick got in the way."
  
• Raping a young girl, then killing the victim and her family
  
• Government-paid goon squads spraying crowds of shoppers with bullets
  
• "Don't tase me bro!"
  
• Shooting sprees in schools
  
• The vice president shooting a 78-year-old man in the face
  
• Government agents shooting a sick man in a jetway
  
• Anthrax attacks against democrats and "the liberal press"
  
• Shooting and killing a wounded prisoner point-blank while he is waiting for medical treatment
  
• Raping of female soldiers by male soldiers

And that's just what comes to mind in the first thirty seconds.

[RamboLiberal]

49. This is one time I won't blame Bush

Except for perhaps less police on the streets.

We had a similar incident in the 90s in my area where a guy was shooting at some one from a corner and killed a baby in a car down the street.

[Xenotime]

72. In the 90s there was the AWB which stopped much of the gun violence

Now there is not and people can just buy assult rifles because they think they have "the right"

Since when does a gang of thugs qualify as a "well regulated militia?"

[Pavulon]

74. Really

The folding stock and other silly cosmetic ban reduced crime? Link Please?

Was a rifle used here? Or a pistol?

Was the gun used by a criminal? Was the weapon legally owned by said peckerwood?

Can you still get banned drugs, prostitutes, and other illegal things with little effort?

[Dr. Strange]

101. Do you honestly think Columbine would have happened if the AWB had been in place?

If the AWB had been in place, we wouldn't have had Columbine, now would we?

Oh wait...

[Pavulon]

138. Yeppers

no assault weapon used. Shotgun (far more dangerous than a scary looking black rifle) and carbine (9mm) were used.

Not banned weapons.

Straw purchased weapons.

[Tejas]

161. LOL! good one!

Probably sailed over a few heads in this thread though.

:)

[zanne]

135. Little effort?

How would someone in Pohunk, NH go about getting illegal drugs or a prostitute? That wouldn't be easy. However, a trip to the local gun store is one of the easiest things in the world. Your argument doesn't make sense. Most of us don't live in urban areas where drugs and prostitution are handy.

[pipoman]

155. You are obviously outside the loop

are you to tell me there aren't drug possession/distribution cases in your city or county? Drugs aren't only an urban problem, they are everywhere.

[krispos42]

179. In Podunk, NH...

where crime is low and homicides rare, it's easy to get a gun from a gun store and it takes a little bit of work to get illegal drugs. Okay, Podunk doesn't have street hookers.

But in Chicago, IL, where crime is high and homicides common, there are no gun stores but the streets have plenty of both street hookers and street dealers.

[pipoman]

100. The AWB didn't save one life, stop one shooting, or keep one gun off the street

it was complete and total window dressing nothing more. It's not your fault that you believe this nonsense, it is what has been told to you by a bunch of lying politicians and the pugs at the Brady org.

[zanne]

152. So says the NRA.

And we all know the NRA doesn't have anything to gain by lying.:sarcasm:

[pipoman]

156. Really? Name one crime or victim who was spared by

or who would still be alive if the AWB was still in effect. The only people who believe that the AWB did anything at all are those who have no understanding of the AWB.

[Tejas]

163. Evil bayonet lugs

Waiting on one of the antis to show the multitude of homicides committed since the ban ended (or in the last 100 years) with fixed bayonets.

;)

[krispos42]

102. No, that didn't do squat

What defined an "assault weapon" (most emphatically not an "assault rifle"; that confusion of terms is what was exploited by the ban proponents) was combinations of cosmetic features of rifles, shotguns, and pistols.

The features "banned" were from a list that included protruding pistol grips, folding or collapsable buttstocks, bayonet-mounting lugs, and flash-supressors. Basically, any cosmetic features that are associated with military-style arms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban#Definition_of_assault_weapon



You could still buy your civilian-legal semi-automatic-only AK-47, but now it had the bayonet-mounting-lug ground off. Whoopee.



What DID help during the Clinton years was the rise of states with "3-strikes-and-you're out" laws, the COPS program that put 50,000-plus federally-funded police officers on the streets, and the overall good economy. Also, right the beginning of Clinton's term the Columbian police ran down and killed the major Columbian drug kingpin, dealing a major blow to drug cartels that took a few years to sort out.

Now, under the Republicans the COPS program was defunded every year until it was gone in 2005, the economy is tanking, and the housing market is imploding.



And I do have the right to buy a semi-automatic rifle, thank you very much. I don't subscribe to the "you have to be part of the militia" argument, but even if I did, I'm still in the militia, because I am a male between the ages of 17 and 45.

[benEzra]

107. Considering that the 1994 Feinstein law DIDN'T BAN ANY GUNS...

your point is rather questionable.

FWIW, my primary target and competition rifle is a civilian AK-47 lookalike (non-automatic, like all NFA Title 1 civilian firearms). It's a 2002 model (yes, "ban" era).

I doubt you could tell the difference between a 1997 or 2002 civilian AK and a 2005 or 2007 civilian AK. The differences are trivial and cosmetic.

[Supersedeas]

36. it makes you wonder whether the cowboy 'bring'em on' culture is getting the better of us

[krispos42]

99. Most crime is drug-related

Including homicides. Yet despite the massive and continuing failure of the War on Drugs, we continue to fight it. Social costs be damned.

[Mithreal]

14. We are all connected.

It's not just guns, it's also poverty and despair.

[bean fidhleir]

31. Exactly!

Why do so few people -even Democrats- seem to understand that it's the poverty and despair that's the problem?

[Tejas]

164. Much easier, like Brady, to blame an inanimate object n/t

[devilgrrl]

15. If that kid had been taking shooting lessons instead, this wouldn't have happened.

:sarcasm:

[ManiacJoe]

16. Believe it or not, you are actually correct.

If that kid had been taking shooting lessons instead, this wouldn't have happened. It is the bullet proof walls inside the range that would have protected him, but that is not what you were implying.

[MrSlayer]

17. Terrible tragedy.

I'll bet he becomes a phenomenal pianist.

[theHandpuppet]

18. Pianos also have pedals

You have to be able to use your feet as well.

[boricua79]

23. that's true...

but he can always play styles that do not need the pedal. Or he can use his piano knowledge to learn how to play vibes/marimba.

Or take up another instrument.

I hope someway, somehow, he enjoys a productive life with music.

[boricua79]

22. I"m so angry reading this...

I hope the boy recovers as best as he can...and may God grant him the ability to not lose how to play the piano. I suspect that will be very important to him. It could be used to heal his mind and his heart from this tragedy.

What a savage, that shooter!

[Ilsa]

24. Let's hope stem cell therapy will soon provide a cure for him. nt

[zanne]

125. And maybe stem cell research will provide a cure for...

Gun nuts.

[derby378]

191. You wish to "cure" us?

Maybe we are the cure. We're not gangsters, Mafiosi, or white supremacists. We're average Americans, just like you.

[Vinca]

26. The poor little kid takes a back seat to the right of the gas station robber

to own a gun. What a sick country.

[bean fidhleir]

32. No, the poor kid "takes a back seat" to the right of the ruling class to make

people poor and desperate. How many people with money in their pockets stick up gas stations?

[Vinca]

46. You've got to be kidding. I've been poor and I bet many DUers

have been poor and none of us ever stuck up a gas station. I've held some really lousy jobs in my life and somehow I think the criminal could find a lousy job, too.

[bean fidhleir]

53. Why doesn't everyone have a job, then?

The reality is that joblessness in built into the economy. Which means that no, not everyone can find even a "really lousy" job.

Or do you think the high jobless rate among Black folks is because they're "shiftless"?

[Vinca]

55. I'm putting you on ignore. Nice way to start out at DU.

You'll be 1 of only 2 people on my ignore list.

[karlrschneider]

58. Why don't you just put everyone on ignore, that way you won't have to read any facts.

:eyes:

[Vinca]

84. So you condone a new poster accusing me of racism out of the blue?

I don't care if a person is white, black, red, green or blue - you don't go shooting up gas stations and little boys because you're disadvantaged. What if everyone did that? As bad as things are now, we'd all have to wear bulletproof vests. There's no excuse for the kid being shot and no excuse for a person who doesn't know me from Adam to accuse me of being a racist. Few things piss me off more than that sort of accusation and if you think that's just a fine thing to do, well shame on you.

[LanternWaste]

85. Sometimes it's tough to separate...

Sometimes it's tough to separate the chaff from the wheat. Sometimes it's easy. Being accused of racism makes it one of the easy choices. :hi:

[Tejas]

165. A simple NO instead of drama would've done the trick.

[gtar100]

81. I'm still listening.

Harsh reality you point out. Poverty, oppression and hunger are typically the final straws before somebody commits a crime. How often do people sympathize with those who suffer in silence but when somebody finally snaps, we claim they're personally responsible. Better we don't let it get that bad.

[bean fidhleir]

82. "Better we don't let it get that bad"

Right on. Of course, it already is that bad, for many. And getting worse.

There's a traditional song from England going back to the Napoleonic Wars called "Hard Times in Old England" that openly mentions turning robber out of desperation:


Come all brother trades men who travel along
O pray come and tell me where the work has all gone
Long time have I travelled and never found none
(Chorus: ) For it's hard times in old England
In old England very hard times

Provisions you find in the shops, it is true
But if you've no money then there's nothing for you
So what are poor folk and their families to do?
For....

You go in to a shop and you ask for a job
They answer you there with a shake and a nod
It's enough to make a poor man turn out and rob
For....

You see many people a-walking the street
From morning till night some employment to seek
And scarce have they any shoes to their feet,
For....

Soldiers and sailors have just come from war
Been fighting for crown and for country, 'tis sure
Come home to be starved? Better stayed where they were,
For....

(edit to get rid of factitious smiley)

[-..__...]

34. Which part of federal law...

gives a convicted felon the "right" to own any firearm?

[benEzra]

57. No, but I won't surrender MY right to own one lawfully and responsibly

in order to allow politicians to pretend to be "doing something" instead of addressing the real issues here. Odds are this guy couldn't legally so much as touch a gun, and had a long record to boot.

Although, if we banned guns, they'd certainly vanish from the criminal underworld just like pot and cocaine have, or like alcohol did during Prohibition. Oh, wait...they could be smuggled into the country disguised as routine cocaine shipments...

BTW, that same day, 273 people were killed by alcohol. No, I won't surrender my right to buy a bottle of wine, either. Nor will I surrender my right of habeus corpus or my right to be free from warrantless searches and seizures, despite 9/11 and the War On Terrah.

This is tragic, absolutely tragic. He was only a year older than my own son, and I certainly don't criticize his mother for lashing out. But others gleefully using this as a club to beat those they disagree with into rhetorical submission is really, really cheap, IMO.

[bdamomma]

29. OMG, how sad.

no one values life anymore.:-(

[nebula]

40. I lived in the Bay Area in the 90s

I don't think a day went by that I didn't hear reports of a drive-by shooting in the Oakland/Richmond area. I always avoided the area like the plague.

[Jimbo S]

48. I wonder if the shooter had issues with drugs.

How much crime is related to drug dealing, or getting money to buy drugs?

With discussion in this thread regarding poverty and economic opprotunity, all bets are off when it comes to the drug culture.

[bean fidhleir]

56. Quite possibly.

A lot of people turn to drugs for one reason or another. We criminalize poverty, criminalize medical problems, tolerate fraudulent elections and war-criminal candidates ...and then wonder why we live in a chrome cesspit.

[Bigmack]

59. Can any of you Theologians explain...

...how this kid's suffering is part of the Big Plan?

[spoony]

63. Fascinating what personal grudges these threads reveal.

Grudges against regions, against inanimate objects, against God, I'm just waiting for someone to blame this on Obama or Clinton or fill-in-the-blank.

[LanternWaste]

86. Might I suggest...

Might I suggest 'The Problem of Pain' by C.S. Lewis? It focuses quite heavily on your particular question.

That's assuming you're sincerely curious with your question, though.

[Pavulon]

60. And while he won the anti lottery in terms of odds

115 people dies in car "crashes" TODAY. About 40K a year.

06 - 94..
42,642 43,510 42,836 42,884 43,005 42,196 41,945 41,717 41,501 42,013 42,065 41,817 40,716

Most vehicle accidents involve a person doing something stupid or illegal that kills another person. Most are not "accidents" but negligent homicide.

Gun Control is a FATAL political issue. There is NO EFFECTIVE way to prevent a person from doing this. They broke the LAW to rob someone, fire a weapon, and probably did NOT own it legally.

Banning it like coke and hookers is a great plan. Oh yeah better ban the phone and internet because coke and hookers (or both at the same time) can be acquired with those.

Edit:Grammar

[superconnected]

64. Why not just say, "all people die eventually", and write it off that way.

Your half assed attempt at writing it off by using deaths by other mean doesn't apply any more than saying, "we all die eventually".

The gun deaths need to be stopped and so do car deaths. Deciding that it doesnt' matter because a fork/car or anything else can kill you is as apathetic as saying, "well we all die sometime."

So just be honest, you don't friggen care as long as you can hold your fire arm. Little boys be damned. Because you know, people drown too. The rest of us will focus on prevention.

[Pavulon]

66. More die from 5 gallon buckets

and swimming pools than random (non aimed) gunfire. The odds are insane. Better chance of a shark attack. Ban sting rays they killed Steve irwin.

Lets get one thing straight. It is not feasible to BAN firearms to prevent this type of action. Like I said you can still find a prostitute, to bring you coke, in a stolen car with a few phone calls. All BANNED, verboten.

Social problem. Visit switzerland, where adults have access to machine guns. They manage NOT TO do this shit.

How do you propose we prevent gun death?

[superconnected]

68. We can start preventing them by first acknowleging it's a problem.

[Pavulon]

73. It is a problem

that people are not treated to the same judicial process for "minor" gun crimes ad they would get for NFA (effective gun control) offenses.

10 years for any gun related act. $10,000 fine. Felony, no more guns EVER.

Illegal possession (many crimes are committed with these), conceal, brandish. There is NO minor gun crime.

That is why you almost NEVER hear of illegal machine guns. The penalty is massive.

If peckerwood here was in prison for a "minor" gun charge he would not be shooting people. (which is illegal.)

[zanne]

83. Switzerland doesn't have alot of gun nuts...

Or the NRA, which owns so many politicians in Washington.

[Wcross]

106. The person who did this was a "gun nut"?

What, was he robbing the service station so he could pay his NRA dues?

[benEzra]

108. They have a thriving culture of gun enthusiasts, and ProTELL...

which is the Swiss equivalent of the NRA.

What they don't have is the U.S. rich/poor gap, our abysmal lack of mental health services, our insanely militaristic approach to recreational drug use, our history of institutional oppression of minorities, or our inner-city blight. They also have a top-notch educational system and social infrastructure.

[zanne]

118. Well, maybe once the US gets all those things....

It'll be safe enough to own a gun.

[benEzra]

122. ...and trying to take responsible people's guns away...

will ensure that those things don't happen, a la 1994 and 2000.

I dare say that bad people misusing guns angers me just as much as it angers you. But fighting a civil war (whether metaphorical or literal) to take away the guns of those who aren't the problem won't make guns in bad hands go away, any more than 80 years of harsh drug enforcement has reduced the black market availability of pot or heroin.

You want to push the broader agenda of helping people, and I'm with you on that. But not on gun bans, or trying to punish the innocent for the actions of the guilty.

[zanne]

124. CIVIL WAR!?!

Son, I'm afraid you're too far gone to discuss gun ownership or gun control. You're obviously living in Tombstone.

[benEzra]

141. Please look up the word "metaphorical." (n/t)

[Tejas]

162. Until then, keep your cellphone handy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x154053

[Pavulon]

140. Or a lot of street crime

figure that one out and you win.

Socio-economic. PERIOD.

[Tejas]

166. There you go

injecting facts amongst the guns-r-bad maelstrom. :)

The sad part is that some posters here are so apathetic concerning root causes, it's much easier for them just to spout off the handiest Bradyism. At times, they amount to nothing more than Republican puppets.

[superconnected]

65. Wouldn't it be cool if police used the typical gun owner logic

and next time someone gets murdered they write it off with, "well several hundred peope were killed in auto accidents today so uh, let's ignore the murder."

[Wcross]

109. No, it wouldn't be cool.

No gun owner would want the police to ignore this armed robbery that resulted in serious injury. Your analogy is flawed. Most gun owners would love to get firearms out of the hands of criminals such as this one. There is a law against armed robbery but it didn't stop this guy. What makes you think a law to ban handguns would work?

[benEzra]

123. The fact that I don't support banning alcohol...

does not mean that I do not want drunk drivers arrested and prosecuted.

Nor does the fact that I don't support banning handguns or protruding rifle handgrips mean that I do not want those who misuse guns arrested and prosecuted.

Where the gun-control lobby jumped the shark was in going after lawful and responsible ownership, rather than addressing criminal misuse.

[Xenotime]

69. And guns are legal why?

[Tejas]

76. Try to keep up

There are a zillion reasons they are (in your over-simplified term) "legal". The number one reason is listed in the Bill of Rights of this great country.

You know.......the country that hasn't been drug COMPLETELY in the toilet by Bradyites, Fascists, United Nations, gun-grabbers...

[Paladin]

77. Take It Back To The Gungeon Where It Will Be Appreciated (n/t)

[Tejas]

79. Your wisdom has been missed, you're welcome to do the same

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SecularNATION]

132. Republican?

"You're no democrat"

Says who? You? There are plenty of law abiding owners who vote Democrat. Unfortunately, there would be many, many more, and the Dems would have won many more elections, but for hysterical gun haters like yourself. The fact is, gun control has been the Democratic Party's biggest losing issue, for years, and the Party will continue to suffer, if the issue isn't dropped.

[benEzra]

136. Interesting poll in GD a while back...

[fortyfeetunder]

75. Very sad

I hope Christopher will recover and be a great musician. I am sorry such a horrific event happened in this little boy's life.

[pipoman]

89. Very sad indeed

Here is the rest of the story, as could be easily predicted:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20080115-0503-ca-brf-bay-boyshot-charges.html

5:03 a.m. January 15, 2008

OAKLAND – The man who allegedly fired the shot that hit and left an Oakland boy paralyzed is facing the possibility of life in prison after being charged with attempted murder.

Jared Adams was also charged Monday with robbery, evading police and being a felon in possession of a gun.

-snip-

As is the case in nearly every gun crime, the criminal is legally prohibited from owning, possessing, or even touching a firearm.

It seems I am seeing two schools of thought in this thread:

1. Outlaw firearms as they are the problem

2. Poverty is the problem

My take is stronger penalties for violent offenders, decriminalization of most current drug offenses combined with a x2 increase in inpatient chemical treatment beds funded by legalization and taxation of marijuana only. Leave the Bill of Rights alone and strongly punish those who violate current violent person crime laws (which obviously isn't happening). Quit exporting blue collar jobs and telling us "it's OK because we are going to replace them with good paying, high tech jobs". Which is another way of saying, if you are not capable of doing a "high tech" job, pound sand loser.

[Wcross]

90. It is odd that very few here blame Jared Adams, they blame the gun.

The facts indicate that Jared Adams attempted to rob a service station. Jared Adams decided to use a gun in the commission of this felony. Jared Adams decided to fire his gun multiple times at the Chevron gas station attendant. Jared Adams is responsible for this crime.

If guns were illegal would a criminal who was about to commit a felony refrain from using one due to that law? If guns were illegal would they be as available as cocaine? Do criminals obey the law?

I blame Jared Adams for this tragedy. He is the person responsible for this shooting.

[zanne]

134. is this the "inanimate object" theory?

There are many inanimate objects that are used by people, but are far more regulated. Cars, for instance, are inanimate. So are matches. So are drugs. So what? They all take a human being to activate them! The old, worn out saying "Guns don't kill people--people kill people" is true, but to update it, I'll say, "Guns don't kill people--people with guns kill people".

[Pavulon]

142. If you die at another persons hand

it will be a person with their hand on the wheel of a car.

[zanne]

143. HAH!

Can you answer a question that has been on my mind for a long time regarding carrying a gun? WHY ARE YOU SO AFRAID? WHY ARE YOU SO PARANOID that you absolutely have to have a gun (or guns)? Exactly who is out to get you? Do you have bars on your windows? Do you have fearsome enemies? Why do people in Bohunk Kansas need a gun to "protect" themselves from crime?

[Pavulon]

145. I live in a medium sized town

no crime. No fear of my neighbors. I am upper middle class and have a 4 year degree. My wife works in the medical profession.

I live near RTP, we have massive companies and lots of great jobs.

I do not need a gun. I do however reserve the right to own one. So when you get enough political power to amend the constitution to state that I can not have one, the rules change. I generally do not carry a gun, but that is because I do not want to, not because some ass has banned me from doing so..

This is not a communist state, need is not the driving factor here.

[zanne]

147. OMG!

"I do not need a gun", but you went out and bought one anyway to protect your Second Amendment rights? :rofl:

[Pavulon]

148. Nope, to kill defenseless animals

and punch holes in paper. Yummy animals. I own several. No "assault weapons" I dont need a boat, I dont need an old 240D, etc. I could just live in a grass hut. But I dont wanna..

My wife is more likely to carry a gun than me. Hospitals are always in shit parts of town.

Amend the constitution. Every freakin time some poor person is shot are we having this debate?

Ban booze, it kills more people..Kidding they tried that, it was a massive fuckup.

[zanne]

150. You don't own the country yet.

Until you do, I'll have my say. (And so will many others.) Don't even try to shut us up. Ain't gonna happen. And I'll do my part, now and in the future, to influence as many people as I can and to write or call my congressman at every opportunity to not only enforce already existing gun laws, but to create new ones.

[Pavulon]

153. Good Luck

hope you manage not to sink the party in the process. Gun control is pointless and political suicide.

You are free to say all you like unless you would like to repeal the first while on a banning spree, but the reality that the 2nd amendment is in place is a nice reality. Supremes should be backing that right by the end of summer.

What new form of gun control do you think would make the nation safer by the way?

[zanne]

174. It won't be "political suicide" for long.

Back in 92', it would have been political suicide for a dem. candidate to say he didn't want tougher gun regulations. After Bush and his Republican cronies came into office and 9/11, gun sales went up steeply and people started accepting the idea of gun ownership with relaxed regulation. There is a seismic shift in popular opinion coming up, boyo, when we get Dem. leadership back in the White House. I've been around long enough to know that national politics influences popular opinion immensely. Once we get someone in the White House with a little commong sense, who cares about the WHOLE country and a few more Democratic senators, just watch the change come. You'll be amazed. It's already beginning.
I find it curious that, with Repubs in office, you gun guys are quite happy with the way the public is thinking about guns and about gun regulations. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

[Pavulon]

187. Wonder why the congress flipped

after the pointless awb ban? Yep, people dislike gun control. People like enforcing reasonable laws, banning rifles is just stupid.

What EXACTLY would you propose we change in regards to gun law?

[pipoman]

190. In fact it was

the AWB and other more drastic measures which were being discussed largely by Dems including President Clinton which caused the loss of the house in 1994 and continued support for these failed policies by Al in 2000 and Sen. Kerry in 2004 which kept them out of the white house. What the ban the guns crowd either fail to realize or refuse to acknowledge is that the disenfranchisement of the blue collar and rural Dems is what has been causing the party to loose national elections for the last 15 years. It is the attitude, "we don't need those rednecks anyway" that has cost the party. Just keep pushing the anti 2nd amendment, pro free trade (NAFTA/GATT) agenda and see if your prediction plays out. Another thing you and most other gun banners fail to acknowledge is illustrated in this graphic, each of these states passed shall issue laws based on support for these laws within the individual state, how do you explain your assertion that most people support gun control when faced with this reality (as opposed to a belief based on your own ideas)?

[-..__...]

169. Rough numbers...

4 million NRA members (of which I'm one)...

60-80 million gun owners...

200+ million guns.

Now... what was part about doing your part?

I'll agree with one thing though... "enforce already existing gun laws", but it's always lip service... blame the guns... hug a thug/coddle the criminals.

[-..__...]

168. Why are YOU so afraid of guns and gun owners?

You live in NH... a state with some of the least restrictive gun control laws in the country and high percentage of firearms ownership, yet they have one of the lowest incident rates of firearms related deaths and injuries.

Your chances of being killed or injured in a moose/deer collision are probably greater than being shot or killed in a gun related crime.

I guess the motto "Live Free Or Die" means little or nothing to you?

Try living in a repressive nanny state like MA for awhile and see what it's like living under the boot heel of a government/legislature run amok.

I'm outta here in about 8 years... guess where I'm moving to?

[LanternWaste]

105. And people wonder...

And people wonder why I consciously attempt to avoid being near any civilian with a firearm-- accidents happen regardless of whether the weapon is legally carried or not...

Edited: spelling

[benEzra]

111. Police officers are civilians, too...

and have a higher accident rate than non-LEO CHL holders--but still quite low.

Criminals, on the other hand, have a much higher rate of accidents of all types (not just involving guns), for a variety of sociological reasons related to mental health issues, impulse control disorders, substance abuse, educational issues, etc.

[LanternWaste]

113. Well, chances are I do my best to avoid police officers, too.

Well, chances are I do my best to avoid police officers, too. :evilgrin:

I don't mind firearms at all. As long as no one touches them and they're in a stainless steel vault buried deep within the bowels of the earth, I'm cool. Put them in someone's hand however (anyone's hand, really), and I'll make a quick excuse to leave.

I'm not trying to grab them.

I'm not trying to further legislate them.

I'm not be snarky about them.

I'm just a person who avoids them when and if possible. Accidents happen.

[benEzra]

117. LOL, and I can respect that. (n/t)

[zanne]

119. I would never let someone carrying a gun into my house...

Unless it was a cop, then I wouldn't have any choice, right?

[benEzra]

126. Unless they have a warrant, you can still refuse entry or set conditions.

You are certainly free to choose to keep your home gun-free, and were I ever a guest in your home, I'd certainly respect that.

What I oppose is the effort to forcibly take guns out of MY home, and out of MY possession. My wife and I own and use them lawfully and responsibly, and we choose to keep them.

[zanne]

127. Y'know what really confounds me...

Some people wouldn't dream of letting someone smoke in their house, because second-hand smoke is dangerous, but they have guns in their night tables.
What do you think of trigger locks or fingerprint locks for guns?

[benEzra]

133. Thoughts...

Some people wouldn't dream of letting someone smoke in their house, because second-hand smoke is dangerous, but they have guns in their night tables.

I don't shoot guns in my house, either, nor do I leave guns lying around in a nightstand.

Here's our system:

Most guns kept in a full-size safe for security, but it can be accessed very quickly (~3 seconds). If we are home, one carbine in the safe will generally have a magazine containing ammunition inserted, but the chamber is not loaded and the rifle is on "safe."

We may also keep a handgun in a smaller quick-access pistol lockbox, chamber loaded, magazine inserted, on safe, or out of the lockbox under our direct control.

Much more secure than if they were trigger-locked in a simple gun cabinet, while at the same time being very quickly accessible.

What do you think of trigger locks or fingerprint locks for guns?

Trigger locks are oversold; unlike a cable lock, they do not prevent a gun from being loaded, and unless they fit the gun perfectly, they can fire the gun if yanked hard enough. I have a couple and sometimes use them for transporting an unloaded firearm, such as when checking a gun through to a destination when flying, traveling interstate with a carbine in the trunk, etc., but would not generally use one around the house.



Fingerprint locks for guns are a fantasy, IMO. They are way too slow, too unreliable, and not a good fit for high-temperature, high-g-load mechanical systems. Functional reliability is the number one criterion for most gun owners, and building a compact, inexpensive fingerprint lock with a 0.01-second reaction time, .9999+ reliability under the most adverse conditions (stress, high temperatures, injured hand) with a service life measured in decades would be cost prohibitive, and they would be easily bypassed. Nor would they prevent theft, or unsafe gun handling by children or unauthorized adults. A safe is a far better investment, and would be far cheaper.

More on childproof/theft resistant gun storage here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=132400&mesg_id=132406

I'd personally like to see a tax credit to help people of average means afford UL-listed gun safes. It was years before my wife and I could afford to purchase a safe; handgun safes are inexpensive, but rifle safes are quite pricey, and it is often hard for working-class individuals to afford one.

[Haole Girl]

112. This is just very sad. n/t

[wordpix]

121. yet the 2nd amendment allows every madman and criminal in the country to have a gun according to NRA

:mad: :grr:

[benEzra]

139. No, just mentally competent adults with clean records.

yet the 2nd amendment allows every madman and criminal in the country to have a gun according to NRA

No, just mentally competent adults with clean records. The NRA supported, and still supports, the portions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 that make it a Federal crime for a convicted felon or someone adjudicated mentally incompetent to so much as touch a gun or a single round of ammunition. As do I.

I don't have a problem with keeping guns out of criminal hands. Problem is, the gun-control lobby wants to keep guns out of MY hands. I'm 37, have a liberal arts education, have never had so much as a speeding ticket, and know more about guns and gun law than most LEO's. I have a problem with that.

[zanne]

144. Mentally competent adults with clean records....

Can go absolutely bonkers and kill their entire families, or church members, or PTA members, for that matter. THEN they become criminals.

[Pavulon]

146. They can even be elected president

and have access to thermonuclear weapon delivery system capable of stopping life on a global scale. There are bigger issues. Gun control is pointless 90's era bad politics. It pisses people off and does not net results.

[zanne]

151. It pissed YOU off.

You seem to be operating under the illusion that you are part of a majority of Americans when it comes to gun issues. You are not.

[Pavulon]

154. Majority may hate the 1st and 4th

but until you change the constitution, no go. Luckily the party has discovered gun control is pointless on all levels. Enforce what you have.

Not pissed, amused.

You think you are going to ban gun ownership. Just like the "round up all them mexicans " kind of stupid.

[zanne]

175. Why in the world would majority hate First and Fourth? nt

[benEzra]

176. A lot of people think the police should be allowed to search anyone they deem suspicious,

to use millimeter-wave and backscatter X-ray cameras to look for concealed guns on the streets, search cars at routine checkpoints, etc. Usually in the name of the "War on Terrah," the War on Non-Approved Herbs, or whatever.

A lot of people would also be OK with censorship of things they find disgusting or appalling, violent video games, books/magazines with sexual content, and whatnot.

The fact that people may support those things, or think those things are necessary in a post-911 world, doesn't mean that the Constitution allows warrantless searches or censorship.

[benEzra]

167. Did you read the post I was replying to?

Apparently not.

But to address this particular tangent, mentally competent adults with clean records overwhelmingly do NOT go bonkers and kill their families or shoot up the church or PTA. We live in a nation of 300 million people, and it still happens so rarely that it makes national news when it occurs, and in many of those cases the person would have had an NICS record already if someone hadn't dropped the ball (the recent NICS database update law is an attempt to close some of those holes).

In this country, under this legal system, there is a bedrock principle known as the presumption of innocence. Meaning, that if the government has no cause to believe you've committed a crime or are in the process of committing one, it can't treat you like a criminal, because the odds are overwhelming that you are not a criminal and will not become one. The government cannot take away your civil rights just because it thinks you might someday commit a crime, because the overwhelming majority of people do not, in fact, do so.

The Bush administration is working hard to overturn that principle, and institutionalize the denial of civil rights (including gun ownership) to people it blacklists, without trial or due process. That approach is IMHO anathema to a free society, and swapping "guns" for "terrah" as the excuse doesn't change that.

[krispos42]

182. You're starting to sound like Darth Cheney

With his "1% doctine".

Goes something like this... "If there's a 1% chance that Pakistani scientists are helping al-Qaeda build or develop a nuclear weapon, we have to treat it as a certainty in terms of our response. It's not about our analysis ... It's about our response."

Except that yours is... well, let's figure it out.

Average American family is four, more or less, so if Dear Hubby or Dear Wifey goes bonkers, perhaps over a stolen parking space, we have three homicide victims. On average.

In 2005, there were a total of 95 people killed in "homicide incidents with 3 victims", according to the feds. 95÷3=31.7, so we'll round it up to 32. Note that this is all homicide incidents, not just gun homicides.

There are 100 million or so households in the country.

So, 32 households with the average American family slaughtered. 100,000,000 homes.

32÷100,000,000=0.00000032, or 0.000032%

Literally, one in over three million. That's your threshold for "society is unable to handle it".

Well, shit, zanne, I have better odds of choking to death on a pretzel. I guess we, as a nation, are going to have to go to an all-liquid diet? Can the American people be trusted to safely handle blenders, full of high-powered quickly-spinning sharp steal blades?

[Tejas]

157. Link please? n/t

[noiretextatique]

149. i live directly across the street from where this happened

when i came home from work that night, there were police everywhere. i was on my way to a friend's memorial service at a mortuary up the block, but the traffic was so backed up i parked my car and walked.
a bystander told me what happened, and i couldn't believe it...very little happens around here.
the perpetrators should be forced to pay restitution to that poor child for the rest of their lives.

[NoBorders]

185. It is horrible.

Course, not sure how they'll pay reparations from prison.

[noiretextatique]

186. prison labor

Court-ordered restitution/fines are deducted from the wages earned by CALPIA inmates and are transferred to the Crime Victims' Restitution Fund. CALPIA inmates receive wages between $.30 to $.95 per hour, before deductions.
http://www.pia.ca.gov/

s boon for some, but not so great for victims

[NoBorders]

189. Thanks for the info

So some restitution can be paid. Still, it's sad that they have to hold a bake sale to pay for his medical bills.

[-..__...]

188. Prison schmison... the conz don't have the cash.

The gun grabbers would rather place the reparations/restitution on the 'real villains with blood money' :eyes: ...

AB992 (Ridley-Scott - Dem) Ammo Tax - DEFEATED - Would have levied a 10 cent tax on the sale of every cartridge or cartridge component sold at retail to fund medical trauma centers. Last year, Senator Perata failed to pass his ammo tax, and now Assemblyman Ridley-Thomas can join that club. AB992 was defeated on the Assembly floor in June.

BTW... this Senator Perata.



http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/caspecial/sum2003.shtml

MacArthur Williams was shot in Roxbury as he changed a tire on his Hyundai so he could go to work the next day. The man who shot him on that September night in 1989 was looking for revenge in a gang dispute, Williams said.

The gunshot paralyzed Williams, now a father of four living in Dorchester. Yesterday, he was among advocates and paralysis patients who urged state legislators to impose a $25 surcharge on all handgun purchases in Massachusetts to fund spinal cord injury research, so that one day he might walk again.

"It's a privilege(:mad:), to own a gun," Williams said in an interview yesterday. "The surcharge, if you know it's going toward research for a problem caused by gun violence, most people wouldn't have a problem."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/03/15/handgun_surcharge_urged_for_research

And people here wonder why law abiding gun owners are fed-up with gun control advocates.

[NoBorders]

184. And they need to hold a bake sale for his medical expenses!

That's fucked-up too.