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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 06:43 AM
Original message
Brazil against US on ethanol
Source: Reuters

Sep 3, 2008
Brazil against US on ethanol


RIO DE JANEIRO - BRAZIL, the world's largest ethanol exporter, may soon challenge the United States at the World Trade Organisation (WTO) over its tariffs on imports of the fuel, Foreign Minister Celso Amorim said on Tuesday.

'My reading is that we have a very strong case and so there is a good chance we will challenge,' Mr Amorim told reporters in Rio de Janeiro.

~snip~
Brazil's Sugar Cane Industry Association hired lawyers to study the compatibility between the US tariff and WTO rules.

The collapse of the Doha Round of world trade talks in July made litigation against the United States more likely.

The US ethanol produced from maize is far more expensive than Brazil's ethanol derived from sugar cane.


Read more: http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/World/Story/STIStory_274750.html
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bushmeister0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Um, isn't Obama in the employ of the corn interests?
NYT:

"Mr. McCain advocates eliminating the multibillion-dollar annual government subsidies that domestic ethanol has long enjoyed. As a free trade advocate, he also opposes the 54-cent-a-gallon tariff that the United States slaps on imports of ethanol made from sugar cane, which packs more of an energy punch than corn-based ethanol and is cheaper to produce. . . Mr. Obama, in contrast, favors the subsidies, some of which end up in the hands of the same oil companies he says should be subjected to a windfall profits tax. In the name of helping the United States build 'energy independence,' he also supports the tariff, which some economists say may well be illegal under the World Trade Organization’s rules but which his advisers say is not."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/23/us/polit...

Lots of corn growers in Illinois, no?
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Farmers aren't tied to one crop
Once corn farmers realize that there are other plants that are better feedstocks for ethanol, they can switch over :P to crops like switchgrass and kudzu. Once they sit down and figure out how much genetically modified seed corn is, plus all the fertilizer and pesticide, the smart ones will soon figure out that they can do better with other plants.
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bushmeister0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I say we make friends with Cuba and get their sugar cane.
Win, win!
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. If we're using tariffs to develop our own ethanol industry, then I can support them.
If it's just to protect strictly corn producers, not so much.

I'd prefer to not shift from a reliance on foreign oil to a reliance on foreign ethanol, to regain some self-sufficiency.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. wow....
just wow....
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. Every politician should be on the side of consumers.
The tariffs on ethanol are a disgrace and an embarrassment to major agricultural exporter like the U.S.

Free trade in all agricultural products should be the rule.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Which means you're pro-free trade and even outsourcing.
Lower tariffs = lower prices in the US. Greater subsidies = lower (market) prices in the US.

One effect of tariffs can be to make it less advantageous to import goods because their costs are artificially high; subsidies makes domestic prices artifically low, which has about the same effect in the market. Dispensing with either entails either exporting jobs (if a US company does it), or simply yielding both the jobs and market to a foreign company. That's, of course, if the US can't make its prices competitive through higher productivity.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I don't want just lower tariffs - no tariffs is the best way.
Edited on Wed Sep-03-08 11:00 AM by robcon
It helps both the U.S. and other countries - stronger economies, less unemployment, tighter bonds between countries and a better chance for peace in the world.

The idea of "exporting jobs" is a complete non-starter.

Read Paul Krugman of the NYT on comparative advantage, the basic economic theory developed by David Ricardo around 1805...

Ricardo's Difficult Idea

"...And so one is prepared to be sympathetic after reading a passage like the following, on the first page of Sir James Goldsmith's The Trap: "The principal theoretician of free trade was David Ricardo, a British economist of the early nineteenth century. He believed in two interrelated concepts: specialization and comparative advantage. According to Ricardo, each nation should specialize in those activities in which it excels, so that it can have the greatest advantage relative to other countries. Thus, a nation should narrow its focus of activity, abandoning certain industries and developing those in which it has the largest comparative advantage. As a result, international trade would grow as nations export their surpluses and import the products that they no longer manufacture, efficiency and productivity would increase in line with economies of scale and prosperity would be enhanced. But these ideas are not valid in today's world." (Goldsmith 1994:1). On close reading, the passage seems a bit garbled; but maybe he is just a careless writer (or the translation from the original French is imperfect). One expects him to follow with a discussion of some of the valid reasons why one might want to qualify Ricardo's idea -- for example, by referring to the importance of external economies in a high-technology world.

But this expectation is utterly disappointed. What is different, according to Goldsmith, is that there are all these countries out there that pay wages that are much lower than those in the West -- and that, he claims, makes Ricardo's idea invalid. That's all there is to his argument; there is no hint of any more subtle content. In short, he offers us no more than the classic "pauper labor" fallacy, the fallacy that Ricardo dealt with when he first stated the idea, and which is a staple of even first-year courses in economics. In fact, one never teaches the Ricardian model without emphasizing precisely the way that model refutes the claim that competition from low-wage countries is necessarily a bad thing, that it shows how trade can be mutually beneficial regardless of differences in wage rates. The point is not that low-wage competition never poses a problem. Rather, what is significant is that despite ostentatiously citing Ricardo, Goldsmith completely misses one of the essential lessons of his argument.

One might argue that Goldsmith is a straw man, that he is an intellectual lightweight whom nobody would take seriously as a commentator on these issues. But The Trap is structured as a discussion with Yves Messarovitch, the economics editor of Le Figaro; Mr. Messarovitch certainly took Sir James seriously (never raising any objections to his version of international trade theory), and the book became a best-seller in France. In the United States, Goldsmith did not sell as many books, but his views were featured in intellectual magazines like New Perspectives Quarterly; he was invited to speak to the US Congress; and the Clinton Administration took his views seriously enough to send its chief economist, Laura Tyson, to debate him on television. In short, while Goldsmith's failure to understand the basic idea of comparative advantage may seem stunningly obvious to any trained economist, other intellectuals -- including editors and journalists who specialize on economic matters -- regarded his views as, at the very least, a valuable addition to the debate.



http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/ricardo.htm

edit: typo
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. we can make fuel out of sugar beets and bacteria
---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biobutanol

we do not need to use corn.
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MJJP21 Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Don't forget
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Not quite....
lower octane, offensive smell. It is not quite that easy.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
7. Politics of it all aside, I understand sugar cane is much more efficient
source of ethanol, as far as return on equal mass, water use, etc.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Yeah, but goodbye rainforest.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. Brazil: Deforestation rises sharply as farmers push into Amazon: The Guardian UK
In what I'm sure is completely unrelated news:

"Concerns over the destruction of the Brazilian rainforest resurfaced at the weekend after it emerged that deforestation jumped by 64% over the last 12 months, according to official government data.

Brazil's National Institute for Space Research this week said that around 3,145 square miles - an area half the size of Wales - were razed between August 2007 and August 2008.

With commodity prices hitting recent highs and loggers and soy farmers pushing ever further into the Amazon jungle, satellite images captured by a real-time monitoring system, known in Brazil as Deter, showed that deforestation was once again on the rise after three years on the wane."



Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
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